The following is based on chapter four of James W. Loewen’s “Lies My Teacher Told Me” (2008). It uses his facts but it is not quite how he put it:
American high schools teach history to make you proud of America. They have to do this in the teeth of one of the greatest crimes of history: wiping out Native Americans and taking their land, more farmland than in all of China. To do this they lie about Native Americans.
The lies:
- North America was mostly empty. Just a few tribes of hunter-gatherers here and there travelling through virgin wilderness.
- Natives were backward, too backward to farm the land, too backward to understand land as property.
- Natives were incapable of change, incapable of successfully living in civilized society.
- The tragedy that unfolded was unavoidable. There was no other reasonable outcome.
What we are supposed to conclude: It was unavoidable, no one is at fault. There was all this land just sitting there for the taking, land that natives were barely using. Since natives could not change or successfully live in civilized society there was little that could be done but push them aside into reservations. Or kill them if they put up a fight.
The truth (as best we know it so far):
- Far from being empty, North America had about 45 million people when Columbus arrived. About 20 million lived in what is now the U.S. Genocide and disease wiped out millions, but even in the early 1800s it was still so unempty that tribes had to be moved out of the way by the American government before whites could easily move in and take their land.
- Most natives were farmers when Columbus arrived. They even taught the Pilgrims how to farm. Some natives were hunter-gatherers, of course, but most were not till whites drove them off their land or made hunting for furs and slaves much more profitable than farming.
- Natives understood land as property. We know that because of the treaties where they ask for fishing rights and so on. The main difference was that they generally saw land as being held in common by the tribe as opposed to belonging to a single person.
- War, genocide and reservations were hardly the only possible course of action. We know that because other policies were proposed in Congress, like giving natives citizenship or their own state. We know that because in Canada and Mexico the French and Spanish mixed with the natives instead of wiping them out wholesale. We know that because there used to be places in America where whites, blacks and natives lived together as one. Multiracial society could and did work.
- White racism was the main reason natives were unsuccessful in “civilized” society. Most important was their lack of full rights as citizens. That made it easy for whites to screw them over in court, take their property and then call them shiftless. Or just kill them outright when it suited them.
See also:
@Abagond
Interesting post. Thanks.
Well we know that wasn’t true since Cortez ran right into the large Native-American empire of the Aztecs. There were still remnants of the Toltec and Mayan cities in Mexico and Guatemala. These were fairly large sized cites with many villages as well. Here is a rendering of the Aztec capital city, Tenochtitlan.
http://wiki.chadblack.net/images/e/ea/Map.jpg
It should probably be noted that a larger portion of the 45 million inhabitants of North America, at the time of Columbus, lived in the population-dense empires of Mexico. The Areas where the US and Canada were later established were, in fact, sparsely populated, as compared with most other large land masses in the world at that time.
Good post!
Excellent post. Let’s not forget the biggest lie – the so-called “Thanksgiving” feast and holiday! The Native Americans helped the starving settlers; the thanks they received was slaughter…
I have been calling it “Thanks-for-taking Day” for years.
Outside of the origin of Thanksgiving Day; Squanto; Pocahontas; and the Caucasian gift to the “indians” of small pox infected blankets, I don’t recall being taught anything about Native Americans in school.
^
As the post above states – I couldn’t believe it when I learned the reality of Thanksgiving. I have grown up knowing this as a widely celebrated holiday in the U.S but tell me, is it common to have people who DONT join in with the festivities due to the history behind things?
Great post.
Excellent post (and just in time for Canada’s Thanksgiving).
Columbus never actually touched american soil, he died after sailing into the Americas (ie Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Puerto Rico, Cuba) he died coming back from a trip to the America’s still thinking he had sailed to Asia. I just thought I would let you know.
Speak for yourself, I read the Native American history for myself and I didn’t let my teachers brain wash me any more then I will let you.
@ Demerera
“but tell me, is it common to have people who DONT join in with the festivities due to the history behind things?”
——————————-
I suspect it’s not too common. I’ve never met or known of anyone personally who doesn’t celebrate Thanksgiving out of protest. In general it’s a very “social” holiday in America centered on family and friends gathering together to supposedly “give thanks” for their blessings, or gorge themselves on the traditional/typical Thanksgiving Day cuisine (turkey and “the fixings”) or both.
@Abagond
Seems to me that the Indigenous folks were the “civilized” people. One example: they knew how to live “in tune” with the Earth, something the “omniscient folks” are now only learning.
@emmanuelle: True, but he is still celebrated as the explorer who “found” America, even though the vikings had been in New Foundland some hundreds of years earlier and irish monks propably even earlier, not to mention those millions of native nations who habited the continent.
The question here is what is the history of USA and why it is told and given the way it is, even though we all know that it is not the truth. Why, in this century, the old myth of the history is still advanced as the real history?
In Africa in the early sixties there used to be this saying, sometimes attributed to Jomo Kenyatta of Kenya while at other times to Joshua Nkomo of Zambia:
When the white men came to Africa, they had the Bible and we had the land. Now, we have the Bible and they have our land!
@joe: In USA the natives had to buy the damn book also when it became mandatory for them.
“Why, in this century, the old myth of the history is still advanced as the real history?”
it’s not really these days. Abagond’s version here is what was taught probably up until the 70′s or 80′s maybe in grade school. My son is in high school now but by 7th grade he had been made quite aware of the evils of colonialism.
The history of Native Amercans that is taught in American high schools is much better than it was in the 1950s. They are no longer called savages, for example. But the lies given in the post are still being pushed by most of the main textbooks used in the 1990s and 2000s. Loewen surveyed 18 such textbooks. A few will get things right but most do not.
Maybe my kid just goes to a good school then, because I distinctly remember him going through a period of trying to reconcile everything he had been taught about colonialism and slavery with the fact that he is himself white.
Seriously Abagond you need to read 1491 if you haven’t already. I’m reading it right now.
The author gives a good breakdown in this NPR interview.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4805434
@Matari
‘I suspect it’s not too common. I’ve never met or known of anyone personally who doesn’t celebrate Thanksgiving out of protest’
Thanks for responding. I am surprised about that though. Maybe a stupid question but do native Americans actually join in the festivities too?
@ Demerera
I know some who do… but it’s mostly because they want to eat turkey.
Here are two I always hear:
1)They were savages and their ‘civilizations’, such as the Mayans, are not worthy to be in the ranks of other great civilizations.
2)No one owned the U.S. in the first place, so this isn’t in any way ‘their’ land.
Along with #2(I think their correlated) I sometimes come across the:
“They came from Asia, so it was never really ‘their’ land, ” argument.
@ Jess
‘They were savages’
I too have heard this said. This is ALWAYS said about the indiginous people of any land that non-indiginous people took over that or ‘we brought Christianity to this land’.
@ King
So I guess as its a celebrated holiday??? in the U.S, people regardless of heritage use it as a reason to get together with family and friends…to eat Turkey
Yet Christmas is only round the corner!
@ Demerera
Turkey… and stuffing/dressing, and corn and dinner rolls, and macaroni and cheese, and greens, and dirty rice, and probably creamy mashed potatoes, and string beans, covered with those really good little breaded onion ring things. And then, of course you have to have sweet potato pie with a dollop of whipped cream and sprinkled with cinnamon and nutmeg.
You can see why my Native American friends are more than willing to dig in.
@King
Green Bean Casserole is just wrong.
@ WarrenAZ
Cosign.
@ Demerera
I have heard of some Native Americans who refuse to celebrate Thanksgiving because of what was done to their ancestors. I can’t say that I blame them. Having said that I do enjoy the food and getting together with my family. My family and I only prepare soul food during the holidays (it’s very fattening and not very healthy, but oh so good!) so that’s my time to enjoy it without worrying so much about calories!
It may be wrong, my brotha, but it sure tastes right!
“Psychopathy (/saɪˈkɒpəθi/[1][2]) is a mental disorder characterized primarily by a lack of empathy and remorse, shallow emotions, egocentricity, and deceptiveness. Psychopaths are highly prone to antisocial behavior and abusive treatment of others, and are very disproportionately responsible for violent crime. Though lacking empathy and emotional depth, they often manage to pass themselves off as normal people by feigning emotions and lying about their pasts.”
–Wikipedia
The culture is pyschopathological. To the extent that each individual is or isn’t, s/he is bothered less or more by what has been done in the name of white supremacy racism.
^ Thank you for the Psychopathy definition.
As far as I’m concerned: Psychopathy=Super Pathology=Super Pathological=Sociopath=DELUSIONAL=Whiteness=Euro-centric=White Supremacy=Doctrine of Whiteness (an unspoken and unwritten global RELIGION that’s based upon SKIN COLOR practiced by millions of whites and some non-white people)=RACISM.
@ Origin:
Thank you.
@king; I would like to remind here about something Paul Boucusse (who was once touted as the chef of the century in some fancy pants chef thing) once said, when he was told that he uses too much sugar, salt, wine and butter in his foods: I am a cook, not a doctor.
What?! You mean they didn’t paint with all the colours of the wind? Way to spoil the mysticism…
@mochasister
‘My family and I only prepare soul food during the holidays (it’s very fattening and not very healthy, but oh so good!) so that’s my time to enjoy it without worrying so much about calories!’
Mmm, mmm! My mouth is watering at the thought. I need an invite lol. So what does the menu consist of? Turkey (I would pass on that one) collard greens, cornbread, (love that).
I am not surprised that Native Americans would abstein from joining in the festivities – do you think htat many feel marginilased by a society that still seems to think it is ‘ok’ to celebrate something that has such horrible circumstances surrounding its origin?
@King
Turkey… and stuffing/dressing, and corn and dinner rolls, and macaroni and cheese, and greens, and dirty rice, and probably creamy mashed potatoes, and string beans, covered with those really good little breaded onion ring things. And then, of course you have to have sweet potato pie with a dollop of whipped cream and sprinkled with cinnamon and nutmeg.
OK, What is dirty rice? Macaroni Cheese, mmm, my mum makes that – its part of a good ole West Inidian feast that is.
Whenever I hear the words Sweet Potato Pie it puts me in mind of the song by Domino of the same name and for that reason it sounds nice – never had it though I would forgoe the whipped cream – yeuchh.
Why be surprised? Remember that Belgian murderer in Africa, King Leopold?
Whites are savages. Not today? Ask the Afghans, Iraqis, Somalis, Sudanese, Libyans , Palestinians, Diego Garcians
@ Demerera
What’s Dirty Rice!!???
http://annasrecipebox.com/2009/08/26/dirty-rice/
But you can also make it vegetarian (since you don’t like turkey)
http://www.bobsredmill.com/blog/2011/05/02/meatless-monday-recipe-renovator-vegetarian-dirty-rice/
WHAT? Never had it???? Why this is a modern travesty! It’s much too good not to taste! You must eat a slice before you die.
http://magiesplace.info/BLOG/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/swp.jpg
Actually it was back in the 80′s when some native american activists declared Thanksgiving as a official day of mourning for all the native american nations. The native friends I had back then told me that every thanksgiving they cursed that the first one ever became. This, while eating turkey and stuff.
I never liked turkey. I do not know why. No matter how it was done by whom, how much people raved about it. Just not for my taste. I am more of ham man. I guess some form of cannibalism.
@King
‘Dirty rice sounds nice’ judging from the recipe you attach
My sons a lil chef in the making – p’raps we will try to re-create that ‘Sweet Potatoe Pie between us
@ Sam
‘I never liked turkey. I do not know why. No matter how it was done by whom, how much people raved about it. Just not for my taste’
Agree with you there – much prefer fish, though i’m not a veggie
@demerera: yeah, fish well done! Any day over turkey!!
I always thought the “Native Americans didn’t believe in owning property” thing was WAY TOO convenient(for racist whites) to be true.
Abagond:
Evil doesn’t last forever, native-americans should always remember this universal truth. All of the destruction and heartache that has been reaped upon amerindians in “The Americas” can be reversed and changed for the greater good of their race. Indians and mestizos who hail from central and south america are native-americans just the same. God will give it back to them brick by brick, state by state, region by region. It’s in their hands, Abagond!
Tyrone
Native America before Columbus. A land of peace. No Indian ever killed another, and hate was a word not yet known. Where all the natives lived in harmony and voluntarily gave of themselves for the greater good. Even until the very end, when the priest would cut out the still-beating heart from the sacrifice. (Mayans) Or maybe this never happened. Just another lie by the ‘white devil’.
Come on, like Indians never had battles/wars. The Indians were just outgunned. If it would have been the other way around not a tear would have been shed.
Hi all
Been wondering about Thanksgiving and the Native American reaction response to this. Looking on the web, I see that on the same day as Thanksgiving, there is something called National Day of Mourning which is an annual protest dating back to the 70′s which was organised by the NA. Apparently, it is as a reminder of the democide suffered by NA and the continued suffering therein.
Is there much awareness of this in Amerian Culture?
No there is no awareness of this in the American Culture. Like they don’t care about Native Amerins, they don’t lcareabout Blacks like me. Good day.
Abagond, in many ways, your blog is a treasure trove.
[...] The lies you were taught about Native Americans [...]
lies that some Natives believe about themselves?
why are they saying what they’re saying?
[...] The following is based on chapter four of James W. Loewen’s “Lies My Teacher Told Me” (2008). It uses his facts but it is not quite how he put it: [...]
My god, everything that American schools have brainwashed me to believe was a lie. Please forgive me Native Americans, and other beloved races for my ignorance. Even during this time my kind was forced white hands to kill you (Buffalo Soldier). And for that I apologize
the white skin think differently than people of color we take in thing’s like the sun’s energy n they can’t see the world the way native’s can they are the ones who decieved us all with there evil way’s they’re lie’s they’re bible is a book of lie’s stop being brainwash’d by them whenever they come near do everything backward’s because they think opposite then the rest of us…
Great post, but instead of deploring past misdeeds, I wish we were also told how we can redress the wrongs..Today, Native Americans have a shorter life expectancy, are more often jobless, more prone to diabetes due to alcoholism etc. all of which because being Native Americans stops them getting the help they need. There is also a strange irony: the “native American type” is not very obvious once mixed even 50% to 50% with any other American types, so it is easy to forget about them. So while this disproves all theories concocted by racists about damages to the white race, it can create issues of identity. I am mixed, though not Indian, and the fact my mix does not show at all does create problems of rejection when I try to cosy up to people I feel culturally etc close to.
Hi again
Just watched the little film about how Hispanics see themselves. Reminds me of the time when I was teaching in a Young offender’s Institute in 2006. Decided to make the week of January 15th Martin Luther King Junior project week with the black kids. Started off with the history of why there were Africans in the Americas+ Caribbeans. When I mentioned slavery, the Civil Rights movement, I nearly got battered and the kids told me that their ancestors had always been there. I wanted to instil a sense of pride, they were survivors, they owed it to the long lineage of slaves who had not given up (a lot did commit suicide) and had had babies against all odds to be proud of who they are and make something of their lives, well they said I insulted them etc etc. I was awfully sad. We did end with a good discussion though: while complaining nobody was helping them, they bragged about tough, knives, guns, respect… and I said, well, I do not see why the government should do anything for you: you are killing each other off, thus removing the problems. If you really want to annoy them, make a success of your lives. Spur of the moment expression of helplessness because what I had tried to do with such good intentions was not working, but this seemed to hit home and get them thinking.
In the UK where I live, people filling in forms are always asked to define themselves in terms of race. The whites never mind. I do not feel justified to write what mix I am cos you can’t see it, but I get angry beyond words when some of my students from Afghanistan or Pakistan write down they are “non-white” although objectively, their skin is very pink, paler than mine and they have green or grey eyes. Moreover…I am a little olive with hazelnut eyes, but a students once described me as having “blue eyes”. I was gob smacked. Made her look at my eyes. She said: but you are white, you must have blue eyes. Anyway, my students are convinced they get asked about their race to “rub it in” to keep them in their place, when in fact, this is thought as a way to monitor equal opportunities.
SO: What we need…is good history lessons, teaching us the truth, inspiring us to do our own research as well as to be proud of whatever lineage we belong to…After all the wars, infections, famines, deportations, pogroms, rapes, the voluntary or involuntary mixes, etc…we are the survivors, we carry the torch of all the past cultures and must have good lives else we do not deserve to be there.
Sorry this is so long.
“Anne Poitrineau
I was teaching in a Young offender’s Institute in 2006. Decided to make the week of January 15th Martin Luther King Junior project week with the black kids. Started off with the history of why there were Africans in the Americas+ Caribbeans. When I mentioned slavery, the Civil Rights movement, I nearly got battered and the kids told me that their ancestors had always been there.”
Linda says,
I do see where you were trying to go with this. Unfortunately for us black/brown people from the former British colonies, our grandparents saw Britian as the “mother” country.
If you are teaching in the UK, you would have been better off talking about Marcus Garvey or even Bob Marley as a bonding subject, not American history.
My understanding, from my London-based cousins, is that they perceive themselves as British with Caribbean heritage, and I believe the British-born Africans feel the same way.
Did you keep in mind if your black student’s heritage were Caribbean, African, or long-term British (black ancestors there for over 100 years) or mixed-race.
Don’t the different African ethnic groups pride themselves on the fact that their ancestors were not slaves…I am sure someone like Ryan Giggs wouldn’t have been too keen on your lesson
so you would need to tie these kids together using something they feel they have in common–racism that they face today in Britian (which I see that you stated you touched on this subject) as non-white British citizens
Hi Linda
Thanks for your comment, and I agree, so I have to explain that only students of Caribbean origin, whose families had arrived in the last 40 years had applied for the course, so I had planned accordingly. Just like American history focuses on the White invaders, British history is not big on ethnic minorities, and some students had pointed at this. They want to feel British, but do not know how they fit in. They had told me they had always been in the west Indies…Sent them to check where the word “Caribbean ” came from, and they found out it was based n the name of an Indian (as in Native American Indian) which had been wiped out, and they were starting to ask questions. Also, no matter how British they feel, there is a fascination for the USA. All of was the basis of the whole project week. While Wilberforce ended UK enforced Caribbean slavery, Martin Luther King Junior and the Civil Rights movement exposed nt only US issues, but world wide racism and its various ugly faces and I thought it would be interesting to have a wider perspective, while connecting with literacy and personal development etc issues.
By the way, when I said a good life, I meant being ethical, kind, but not a door mat.
Linda, I hope we continue this discussion, I love it when people make me reflect on what I do/say, I hope it helps me travel in the right direction.
[...] the way I think about my elementary school education. His chapter reminded me of the biased lessons I learned in elementary school about the horrible things the Indians did to the white settlers and [...]
This page is full of what you are deploring about white people, hate and racism. I fell upon this site basically by accident but won’t be returning.
@ Walang Diyos:
It’s interesting that your screen name is Walang Diyos. For you non-Filipinos, it means without God. It’s fine and dandy that you won’t return here because your post says a lot about you. Walang hiya ka! (You are without shame!)
Hiya Walang Diyos.
Saddened by your feeling and the fact you won’t return and dialogue. I am not sure what kind of hatred you mean, or what kind of racism you think these pages are allegedly full of. I think we would all like you to be more explicit. Maybe we are manifesting exterme ideas because we are reacting against the extremist ideas we were brain washed with? Personally, and no matter how much of a cliche it is, I am still gob smacked that so many people strive to get a tan, which makes them undistinguishable from “Arabs” or “Asians”, whom they still consider as being a different race.
Many thanks Leigh204 for this lesson in Tagalog (?).
Indeed, I find it interesting that the comment from “Walang Diyos” was attached to this blog post as I did not see any hatred preaching here in this particular post. It was basically a paraphrase of material already in a book by History scholar James Loewen who has devoted much of his professional career to expose how history either gets rewritten or selectively taught to achieve certain political ends. The history of the contact between Native Americans and “settlers” is no different. I grew up disturbed about why we didn’t see much evidence of Native American culture or people any more and even more disturbed after learning what really happened.
The more I learned about history, the more disgusted I felt about the misinformation fed to us in primary and secondary school. It was only after reading material OUTSIDE the school textbooks that I learned more of the real information. This does not apply to encyclopedias though.
@Leigh
Are you sure the Tagalog grammar is correct? I learned that pronouns are inserted between the verb and object when the sentence is inverted, and the -ng is attached to the pronoun, ie,
Ikay ay walang hiya (normal order) –> Wala kang hiya (inverted order).
or another example:
Walang hiya ang lalaki –> Wala siyang hiya. (ie, when the noun is replaced with a pronoun, the pronoun is inserted in between)
@ Jefe:
I admit my Tagalog is sorely lacking. I am not fluent as I would like because my parents spoke both English and Tagalog to me as a child. Mostly English, though. And from what I remember, when I acted up, they would say, “Walang hiya ka!” to me. That’s what I know.
I have several tagalog textbooks at home and I looked it up on the web also.
The textbooks seem to prefer to use “Wala kang hiya” (from a pure grammatical perspective – pronouns are inserted between wala and the object when inverted), but searching the web, I found hundreds of examples of both. In fact, there is a song using “Walang hiya ka” and another using “wala kang hiya”. There are also several facebook pages using both.
So, I guess, both are commonly used. It probably depends whether you are emphasizing the “shame” part or the “you” part.
Have you ever tried to study Tagalog / Pilipino more formally or systematically or use a self-teaching method?
Sorry to sidetrack this discussion.
regarding “Walang Diyos”, I found this website by chance too, but I keep coming back.
I don’t think it is preaching hate in general – most of it seems like a retelling of truths or facts (which occasionally may contain errors). I don’t always agree in the cases were individuals acting rationally are attacked for their behavior (esp. the ones that refer to “character flaw” :-\). But, I treat it as a case where I simply do not agree.
But I find it interesting that Walang Diyos chose THIS post regarding lies about Native Americans to express the notion that this blogger promotes hate. I think the Native American genocide and ethnic cleansing is about the most scandalous action that occurred in US history, The fact that it is given considerable less attention and focus than slavery, and has been so white-washed makes it that more scandalous. For example, I think most people in the US agree that slavery, the middle passage, etc. was wrong and should be taught that it was a wrong thing, but the genocide / ethnic cleansing of Native Americans hardly causes anyone to bat an eye. It is simply not taught.
Hiya Jefe
Many thanks for the Tagalog details. I am a linguist but all my languages are Indo-European, with a bit of Yoruba (Yoruba does not differentiate between verbs and adjectives, and has no such thing as “to be”) so I am incredibly happy to learn something about Tagalog.
Back to Native Americans. Why do they not get the same consideration as African Americans? I have several theories. One is that, as many Native Americans are confined to reservations, well the problems are swept under the carpet somehow. The other is something which also affects British Gypsies who are discriminated against, have poor life expectancy, high alcoolism etc. It is the lack of visibility once they live outside of their reservation. Why? 1-Native Ameircans do not look that different unless you pay attention to their truly beautiful features, and how many of us stop to take a good look at people beyond skin colour? (there are remarkable archive pics showing Indians in their native clothes, then in suits to prove my point) 2-What do kids of mixed native American+white look like? They look white enough. Some could say it is a blessing as it ends discrimination, and it does incidentally prove how pointless these racial things are. But does it really end all discrimination? In my experience of “invisible heritage”, it can end up in rejection by your invisible relatives. Now, being native American or Gypsy or whatever else that cannot be seen anymore is as much part of you as what can be seen. So in conclusion: on the national stage, end of social problem, on a personal basis, big self esteem issues and rejection scarring. It is sad that the state does not pay any attention to this sort of trauma, cos it covers a lot of individuals, and therefore does affect society.
@ Anne Poitrineau
Could you clarify what you mean when you refer to “British Gypsies”?
Do you mean the Roma in the British Isles, or are you referring to the Irish Travellers that have settled in England? The Roma settled in Central and Eastern and south Eastern Europe, but are part of India’s Diaspora.
The Irish Travellers are ethnically Irish.
Both groups have faced strong discrimination, and the Romani peoples have been subject to centuries of under-recognized atrocities (not least extermination during the Nazi-era.)
As reference is made to poor life expectancy and alcoholism, I am assuming, then, that you are referring to Irish Travellers, who are not British, of course, and do not call themselves “Gypsies”, and have not done so for some time. “Gypsy” is used rarely, and “Gypo” is used as a slur in the UK, in my experience. The equivalent slur in Ireland is “Knacker”, especially if the person is red-haired.
Under British law Travellers are given their own identity as a recognized ethnic group.
Where I am in here in Ireland, though, the Travellers or Pavee, are indistinguishable as an ethnic group from the rest of the Irish population. Although they have styles of dress and ritual that set them apart in appearance — however this does not does not make Ireland’s Travellers recognized as anything more distinct than a “social group” only. The language spoken is The Gammon or Shelta, an Irish creole tongue: Hiberno-English and Gaelic.
@ Anne Poitrineau
I may have misunderstood the context of the debate where you discussed the above quote, but I am interested to understand how Asians from Afghanistan or Pakistan are “white” in Britain? Forgive me if you’ve already discussed this, but from the many Pakistani, Iranians, and Afghans I’ve known in my life, for instance, from various ethnic groups, there are none I could mistake for a “white” person. Not one. But this makes me very interested to know how they are not “non-white” to you?
The British way of ethnic classification, in my limited understanding, differentiates between whites and Asians this way:
White British
White (other)
White Irish
Indian
Pakistani
Bangladeshi
Chinese
Other Asian (non-Chinese)
Mixed (self description required)
As Afghanistan is in Asia, for instance, why would a person from this country call themselves “White other”?
I realize that certain words are used differently in the Americas, especially the word for Indians, the misnomer for Native Americans, which causes tremendous confusion (consternation?) for South Asians from, or of, India, but I’d like if you could explain how the different perceptions compared for you.
Hiya Bulanik
I will try to be clear because I realise I was not. A lot of people classified in the Uk as non-white look white to me.
Because? First: I come from a continental country where people can be pale as scandinavians, or olive like arabs without any reference to immigration in the last 200 years. We see them all as white, so the English whiter shade of pale classification seems completely bonkers to me.
Second, just look at the people around you, the ones you know are Brits. Some of them dressed in a Asian suit will be a revelation to you, you’d suddenly realise they have more almond shaped eyes and olive skins. Then stick some people from pakistan into suits or jeans and Tshirts…not all of them will strike you as being Asian, even if it is true that certain faces/traits will be more prevalent in some places, there is no exclusivity. The point is, East and West have been mixing for yonks, plus, anyway, human beings have all come the same way before ending at the western tip of Europe. Asians are not one colour, there is a huge variety of shades, so this white non-white business is humbug. Let’s just ignore it, but let’s acknowledge and respect cultures.
Next, the “sino-Japanese type”. Same here, apart from the shapes of the eyes, there is a huge variety of skin tones and eye/hair colours.
as for more African types: I had a Brazilian green-eyed boyfriend, who otherwise looked very African. Focusing on physical differences for any other reason than to marvel at the manifold beauty of mankind is daft.
Now to the gypsies. I used the term BECAUSE it is vague, and because when I was teaching in prison, I asked one of the learners if he was a Roma? He stood up (towering over me…and he was a bare knuckle fighter…) “What is it you’re calling me? I am a traveller”, so I asked how he felt about gypsy? he thought for a second or two “OK, but I am also a tinker”. But anyway, that was not at all the point I wanted to make. The point I wanted to make applies for ANY of the travellers, Gypsies, Irish Tinkers etc in the UK: They are discriminated, even if their culture is reluctantly recognised (and I do speak a bit of shelta, and so wonder if you are another gadjo dilo, or a rom?). The point I was making is that all that big deal we make about colour etc, it does not take long to dilute, and in fact all of us have African grandparents etc. Albino Africans are blond with white skin. It is all down to mutations and is quite irrelevant, it is our place in society, culture and history that really set us apart, on grounds which are often unjustified.
^ Maybe consider
- you might not be able to determine someone’s racial or ethnic background just by guessing their classification according your interpretation of their phenotype. Maybe it is better NOT to ask someone if they are Roma, but ask them what their cultural and ethnic background is, and let them tell you.
- again, race is not just about skin colour, esp. in the social context that it is used. There are social and cultural cues as well that may impact one’s “racial” classification. Why would there be a phenomenon called “passing”? Many individuals consciously decide how they wish to be socially classified. Any if another person feels they should reclassify themselves differently, I will not consider them to be delusional or a “race traitor” if they don’t.
Besides, discrimination is itself a social activity. This includes activity as evil as segregation, slavery and genocide.
Hello Anne.
Thank you for the clarification. Certainly, I see your point about the divisive/destructive outcomes that focusing on our tiny so-called “racial” differences can bring. However, as your extensive knowledge and travels illustrate, the various cultures of difference and discrimination are extremely pervasive and invariably puts obstacles in the way of that clear vision.
For instance, I think we have rather different perceptions of what is “white”.
IMO, I simply do not believe one can conclude how to classify someone’s ethnicity based on looking. I think that’s not a good way to go. What could happen with that is that one often ends up assuming and presupposing: seeing what one might want to see, based on what one thinks one sees… Better to ask without assuming, perhaps?
To my mind, many South Asians (and West Asians) I know would think it “bonkers” to self-designate as white. Yes, really.
At most, they might call themselves brown, as a shorthand instead.
Some Asians are black skinned, towards the south of the sub-continent of course, and call themselves black, as you know.
I’ve been around Asians all my life, grew up with Asians (from west, east and south of the continent, some are my blood-family, some are British, some not) and, I realize what you mean about the immense variety in appearance, but that doesn’t make them all white people, whether they are white-skinned or Arab-looking or whatever. Still brown, and not “white”. I’m fairly familiar with the Eurasian demographic trends over time, and some of the the history and politics of naming geography and peoples, but, I don’t feel the same way about “white”: I feel many individuals from the massive continent of Asia, will simply tell you what they are , WITHOUT being pre-supposed as “white”. It is really not about simply skin colour, the American system, etc., for many of us.
For some Asians who you might perceive as “white”, white is something they wholeheartedly reject. I have seen this again and again.
I am not sure whether “Gypsy” is helpful because it is vague. And as it’s well- known that Irish Travellers are referred to as Tinkers or Travellers, or the Indian nomadic peoples (from India originally) are known as Roma or Romani, why not ask what they call themselves? The reason I thought it was useful to ask about “Gypsies”, is that many fought hard to be called what they wanted to be called: to be who they are rather than something “exotic” and dodgy-sounding by those who named and judged from outside their culture.
Is that different from the Irish being thought of, lumped in with, and called “British”? Is it that different from Indians always having to qualify their heritage and/or nationality by saying they are:
IndianEast Indian
Indian Asian and
Indian South Asian
because they have been part of India long before Columbus made his mistake on reaching the Americas and meeting the indigenous peoples…
@ Jefe
Just saw your comment, and agree 100%.
Hiya Bulanik and Jefe: of course I agree!! And I did not suddenly call this student of mine “Roma”, it was part of a conversation that was developing as he was introducing himself to the class (he was new). In a way, it was funny to realise that, while I was using the vocabulary recommended by prison guidelines, he was being called a word he had never heard before and assuming it was negative, so reacted by posturing. That says a lot about his life experience. He turned out to be quite a nice person, even if a thief. Bare knuckle fighting was just a way to make a living, because making a living is hard for Gypsies (And I like to use this term, because the Gypsies I know seem to all agree it is not a bad term to cover them all).
I also agree that many of my Asian friends would not call themselves white, even though, objectively, to the naked eye, they are. Colonialists have successfully brain washed the countries they invaded to think of themselves primarily in colour terms, with the implication that different =inferior. So,I think that when you say your Asian friends call themselves brown, it is now to express pride in their different identity. But this is illusory: the colour difference being minute in most cases, intermarriage produces kids who do not look Asian. (My neighbours are a mixed couple: the kids have green eyes and light brown hair, and very pale skin). I think that this adds to the reasons why intermarriage is frowned upon by quite a few people: it blurs diferences they are so proud of, and then there are religious and cultural reasons. In fact, they refuse to admit the differences were hardly there in the first place. What we really have a range of “hues” with more of the darker ones in certain areas. OK, then you could ask me “what about the really black ones etc”. Answer: if we demonstrate that colour differences are pointless for some, they are pointless for all, just physical adaptation to local geography.
I am trying to make a point without using vocabulary too heavily laden with history. I.e: a lot of our interaction with other cultures is based on prejudice, based on categories of skin colours which have been decided nearly as logically as the straight line frontiers of African countries were. Asian=dark is not true, it is only a higher likelihood, just like European =fair is also only a matter of higher likelihood. Concentrating on the extremes ends of the range produces Nazism or absurd situations:
1-As an English teacher, I regularly have to teach my students how to describe people. Sometimes they choose me, with the same extraordinary result coming up time and again… “the teacher is… she has light brown hair and blue eyes”. I have dark brown eyes, which I show them, and they answer quite dismayed “but you are white”. This funny sort of racism causes them to distrust what their own eyes tell them. Is that not potentially dangerous?
2-I was a witness of a crime. I described the mugger as dark haired and dark eyes. Police “Asian then?”. I answered I did not think so, but the policeman tried to make me say he was, and all the pics I was shown for ID-ing were definitely Asian (So in a way I am agreeing that there are facial features which aremorelikely to be Asian).
As you say, these categories are pervasive. I find them dangerous, they blind us to reality because we use them as way to categorise easily instead of thinking case by case.
@ Anne
… also agree that many of my Asian friends would not call themselves white, even though, objectively , to the naked eye, they are….
I doubt if we can agree on this one point, as Jefe and I seem to be saying one can’t guess classification according to an “objective” person’s interpretation of phenotype, by looking and assuming.
Perhaps this may be the difference between you might call your “objective-ness” v. “bonkers” thinking of others.
Correction:
Perhaps this is the difference between what you might call your “objectiveness V. the “bonkers” thinking of others.
This goes just to show how race and racial identification are a load of poop. If we take a dark tamili and put him next to Michael Jackson, then who’s black and who’s white and why? Or if we take one well oiled and tanned bodybuilder from Sacndinavia and put him next to Alicia Keyes, who is white and why? Race is a social construction. Period. If you believe in it, you think it is real. If you know what it is and where it comes from, you understand this very simple scientifical fact: there is only one human race on this planet biologically. We just look different.
Races are social construction, imaginary, thinking system imbedded into thinking systems. And there is a reason why that system is kept up. Somebody needs to keep people divided and fighting among each other. Why? Just follow the money.