internalized racism

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internalized racism

Wed 25 Nov 2009 by abagond

Internalized racism is where you are racist against your own race, even against yourself! It is also called internalized oppression, internal colonization and the colonized mind. If you grow up in America as a person of colour it is hard to avoid: you are told in a thousand and one ways that “white is right” and that you are not – not just from white people, from school and television, but even by people of your own race, maybe even by your own family. You are brainwashed to see yourself like white people do, seeing yourself through the white lens.

Most people of colour know they are just as good as white people, but that has to be believed in the teeth of not just the racist messages that they get all the time but, even worse, those that were laid in their hearts when they were too young to understand. As Kenneth Clark’s doll experiments showed, internalized racism affects even six-year-olds. Most people will believe anything at some level if they hear it enough times. That is how ads on television work.

It can lead to shame, anger, confusion, self-hatred and self-doubt. Studies have shown that black Americans with high degrees of internalized racism are more likely to be violent, get fat, get diabetes, get high blood pressure and have unhappy marriages. That is not to say that it causes those things all by itself, but to point out that it has measurable effects (well, correlations). Internalized racism itself is measured by the degree to which you believe the white stereotypes about your race.

Some stuff that come from internalized racism:

colourism
“good hair”
“acting white”
skin lightening
“not being black enough”
wearing coloured contact lenses
Black women are ugly and disagreeable
Black men are no good and undependable
Life will be better if I act or look more like white people
That to be black you must act like the black people on television
That to be black you must have certain interests, tastes and beliefs

Most black people on television are acting out stereotypes. Even – or especially – on BET.

God does not make mistakes. God made you to look a certain way and gave you certain gifts to use in the course of your life. There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of it. Nothing. It is only narrow-minded, brainwashed people who want you to believe otherwise. Who want to make you think your eyes or nose or hair or lips or skin colour are no good, that there is something wrong with them. Who laugh at your interests and things you want to do because they do not “fit” your race and sex. Who think there is something wrong with you for just being you.

Internalized racism is partly why these statements are wrong:

“I have a black friend who says….”
racism = prejudice + power

And why this one is necessary:

“Black is beautiful”

See also:

growing up Nezua
The Wigger Fallacy
the white lens
- stereotype
blacks are racist – mainly against themselves
affected statements:
internalized racism in action:
- colourism
- skin lightening
- good hair
- acting white
- experiments:
  - the doll experiment
  - The blue-eyed/brown-eyed exercise
acceptable blackness
Writers:

Asians are supposed to be good at math and not rock the boa

Posted in 2000s, America, internalized racism, race, racism | 317 Comments

317 Responses

on Fri 27 Nov 2009 at 03:49:52 Gen

I saw this coming, and you chose the perfect images for it! Pro-Whiteness permeates everything in America and its the elephant in the room nobody wants to talk about today, just be happy with tokenism and “aspire” to be mainstream (white) and all will be well. Most times its subtle but still overwhelming and cancerous. I know colorism is pretty much everywhere to some degree but there are places where being Black isn’t like an albatross around your neck. For this reason, come baby time, we’re relocating.
on Fri 27 Nov 2009 at 03:54:57 Jessica

Beautiful Abagond!

Could you please do a series on the state of black marriage in this country…what are your thoughts about it.

Im a 22 yo black woman who is starting to look outside my race.
on Fri 27 Nov 2009 at 04:28:25 dani

co-sign Abagond. I just wish Sammy would’ve loved his skin complexion more. It was beautiful and he was quite handsome with in his own skin.

Gen said:

I saw this coming, and you chose the perfect images for it! Pro-Whiteness permeates everything in America and its the elephant in the room nobody wants to talk about today, just be happy with tokenism and “aspire” to be mainstream (white) and all will be well. Most times its subtle but still overwhelming and cancerous. I know colorism is pretty much everywhere to some degree but there are places where being Black isn’t like an albatross around your neck. For this reason, come baby time, we’re relocating.

Gen, the colorism conversation gets shut down faster than a racism conversation. I wish people of color can discuss colorism in a more progressive angle and not “the color-blind it should’nt matter” bs. I mean it’s quite apparent that it should not matter. However, many people of color have not been honest and are in denial of the issue. I have never suffered under colorism, however, I have witnessed others who have and its not cool at all.
on Fri 27 Nov 2009 at 05:16:27 mynameismyname

Dani,

I agree. Colorism amongst non-blacks needs to be explored more. It seems more prevelant in non-black cultures, yet it’s existence is rarely acknowledged.

You thought Sosa was handsome? Wow, beauty truly is subjective! LOL.

Wait, let me stop, I’ll get an computer-lashing for not praising a celebrity! I already saw what happened when I revealed some unflattering truths about a certain saintly goddess of cinema! LOL.
on Fri 27 Nov 2009 at 05:36:48 Miss Caribbean

As a woman of Black,Puerto Rican, Jamaican, and Dominican descent it breaks my heart to see that there are so many Black Latinos like Sammy Sosa who still lighten their skin, relax their hair, and deny their blackness. I consider myself a Black Latina, my mom is Black American and my dad is Caribbean. My skin is milk chocolate, my hair is kinky, I have high cheekbones,almond eyes, and a delicate nose. When I would visit some of my racist ligther Dominican/Puerto Rican relatives(including my dad) would make me put a clothes pin on my nose,they would try to wash me with lye soap to make me lighter,and told me that I have “malo pelo” which is bad hair. They would make me feel like I was worthless and I remember my dad told me that I’m too dark for a man to ever love me(he is shades darker than me). I believed these things for a while, I begged my mom to relax my hair but she didn’t let me and I had went to one of my cousins. The relaxer damaged my hair I had cut it off when I was 16 and I’m 19 and I never looked back. I’m natural. I’m glad that my Black American mother gave me the confidence and keep me away from my self-hating relatives. I would never change my skin/hair for anyone. I think I’m beautiful.
on Fri 27 Nov 2009 at 06:08:03 dani

@ mynameismyname

LMAO! I DID think he was handsome at one point. Sammy is not fine but he is handsome. Some people think it is the same but I don’t. I think Barack Obama is handsome but not fine lol. I liked Sammmy in his earlier career days when he would struggle with speaking English because of his thick accent. I thought it was cute and I liked how he would try to be optimisitc. After awhile, he started to deny his blackness by word of mouth way before he started bleaching. This bleaching crap was a way for him to seal the deal on his internalized oppression.

@ Miss Carribean

I’m very sorry to hear the issues you suffered for your color and your hair. I noticed that hair texture is sometimes synonymous to colorism. I’m very proud of your transpiring your problems with colorism.
on Fri 27 Nov 2009 at 08:06:52 Gen

To Dani:

I think most people have just gotten used to the white is right idea, and I think it’s even harder to heal those wounds now with an all powerful and ever present media machine shoving these messages down the throat of the entire world. Letting others do your thinking for you isn’t in your best interest. People get really combative when you bring up natural hair or skin tone preferences so for the most part I leave it alone and do me. I will be honest though, since moving to the U.S, the idea that dark skin makes someone unattractive (especially women) and even invisible is something that I wasn’t used to and will never get used to, it’s just ridiculous. And yes I agree, Sammy was good looking, now he just looks like a Bizarro Al Jolson.
on Fri 27 Nov 2009 at 08:37:23 Vindicator

@Miss Caribbean

My heart goes out to you. I’m also an afro latino/carribean. This type of ignorance amongst Black Dominicans, Puerto Ricans and Cubans (well not so much) needs to stop, It’s destroying us.
Btw I am of Jamaican, Dominican and Haitian (Haitians are latinos, look it up!) descent!
on Fri 27 Nov 2009 at 09:39:03 abagond

Miss Caribbean:

I am glad your mother had some sense!!
on Fri 27 Nov 2009 at 09:53:44 Aiyo

It’s horrble to see internalized racism in celebrities
What I noticed is all the silly excuses that Sammy gave for his change of appearence and the excuses that some people made for him. He said tha he wanted “soften his skin” and I swear skin bleaching cream dosen’t soften it, if he wanted soft skin he should have used coco butter like everyone else.

Not only that people were trying to defend him a lot saying he might be sick becasue of some drugs and how he probably has vitilgo

Which is false he clearly had surgery and bleached his skin just like Lil Kim.
on Fri 27 Nov 2009 at 11:24:51 leigh204

Sammy Sosa looks sickly now. I remember reading an article about a friend of Sammy’s defending him. And I quote:

“He’s not trying to be Michael Jackson,” He is going through a rejuvenation process for his skin. Women have it all of the time. He was surprised he came out looking so white. I thought it was a body double. Part of [the photo appearance] is just the lighting.”

“He is in the middle of doing a cleansing process to his skin. The picture is deceiving. He said, ‘If you saw me in person, you would be surprised. When you see me in person, it is not going to seem like the picture,’” she said. “People who saw him in person did not react the same way. He can’t believe it is such a big deal.”
on Fri 27 Nov 2009 at 12:03:40 chidoka

Please, are the three guys in the picture above one and the same person?just curious and wanted to know.
on Fri 27 Nov 2009 at 12:14:20 abagond

All three are the same person – Sammy Sosa, who has lightened his skin.
on Fri 27 Nov 2009 at 15:11:50 robert uyi

the white man has succeded in destroying mankind , especially people of african descent.before slavery african people had their internal struggles just like other people out there in the world.white peoples contact with african people has been largely problematic and fraught with strife.african people world wide must recognize this problem and try to curb the effect of racism by forming tight knit communities were every child is loved unconditionaly regardless of their skin tone
on Fri 27 Nov 2009 at 15:27:20 robert uyi

i believe african(loose term)should and must define beauty by their own standard.in my lifetime i,ve seen people with dark skin and point features who were very attractive e.g nona gaye, naomi campbell and very beautiful women with very african features like anika noni rose,amber efe etc.im appealing to all africans to resist racism and with all of its accompanying burdens and baggage.trust only GOD even if you cannot see him. only YAH can give you peace of mind in this troubled world.
on Fri 27 Nov 2009 at 15:47:09 robert uyi

the broad nosed dark skinned michael jackson was way better looking than the latter,and this brother above looked better with his dark skin.GOD never makes mistakes we are created and born how we should be. man has erred every race is unique and everyone has something to offer only if we can look beyond our petty prejudices. djimon housou is handsome so is brad pitt,derek luke,chris brown, leonardo dicaprio and so many others every race has something no race is special.
on Fri 27 Nov 2009 at 16:05:24 brownsugar84

I just wanted to say that I absolutely love this:

God does not make mistakes. God made you to look a certain way and gave you certain gifts to use in the course of your life. There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of it. Nothing. It is only white people and narrow-minded, brainwashed people of colour who want you to believe otherwise. Who want to make you think your eyes or nose or hair or lips or skin colour are no good, that there is something wrong with them. Who laugh at your interests and things you want to do because they do not “fit” your race and sex. Who think there is something wrong with you for just being you.

This completely touched me because it is something that I had to deal with growing up. I was never black enough because I was smart and spoke proper English and I wasn’t white enough, because, well, hey, I’m black. My interest in swimming is crazy because black people don’t like water…even though I’m from Florida. Even the way I cheered was criticized. Why did I have to be on a white cheerleading squad? Shouldn’t I be on the step team?? In fact, the school guidance counselor in high school tried to put me on the step team although I had been a cheerleader for 6 or 7 years at that point. I was also called Bubba in middle school for having big lips. Anyway, I’ll stop rambling. I just wanted you to know how touching that part was to me. I absolutely love your blog.
on Fri 27 Nov 2009 at 16:06:29 soul

abagond.

Most of us grow up in an institutionally racist society, most of it is passively absorbed as ‘the norm’

Internalised racism explains not just sammy sosa, but also black police officers joining in on racially motivated beatings and police crimes.

There’ve been numerous cases where a bunch of police officers have assaulted regular citizens and amongst them has been a black officer.

Some of it is ‘group think’ and some of it is internalised racism. I believe there is an intersectionality that we don’t examine.
on Fri 27 Nov 2009 at 16:47:13 Aiyo

@ Soul

that is so true about the police in the Uk the metropolitan police is a very hostile and racist institution to work in.
on Fri 27 Nov 2009 at 16:58:13 Patience

I really like this post… I have experienced the same thing my entire life. From my own family; especially about my hair and my skin color. I’ve also been told that I’m not black because of my ideas and interests. I’m not black for not knowing the color purple line for line, or being able to reenact scenes from good times. I like to read books, and I am interested in science. Last year I decided to stop relaxing my hair because it just wouldn’t take a relaxer any more then they said I was trying to be African! So some days I’m not black enough and other days I am too black..why can’t I just be me? I really love the way I am even if no one understands me I love my hair and my books I am used to being laughed at anyhoo so it hardly hurts anymore. Sometimes when it gets a little bad I always remember Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

God made me and I am very good!
on Fri 27 Nov 2009 at 18:46:32 MerriMay

I’m South African, as close to pure African as you can get.As much as I’m around white people i don’t understand this internalized racism you all are talking about.
I’ve never known anyone in my entire life who bleached their skin, its a foreign concept to me.Maybe those are predominantly West African/West Indian/African American traits. But then again i come from a stock of people that resisted the British and Dutch influence. Again I’ve never heard anyone I know of having insecurities about their dark skin. How different my own experiences have been.
I live in the UK too, London to be precise, in lily white SW London, not once do i look at my white friends and take on the envy to be like them.Yes I flat iron my natural Tswana hair,it’s certainly not stemmed in any form of self hatred.
on Fri 27 Nov 2009 at 18:49:27 Herneith

@soul:

You are absolutely right in regards to this intersectionality between internalized racism and black police officers and law enforcement in general. I can assure you that there is a group think and woe betide to any black law enforcement person who goes against it!
on Fri 27 Nov 2009 at 20:28:04 Miss Caribbean

I live in the DC and I’m seeing a lot of young Black women around my age with these ridiculous-looking colored contacts. I’ve seen a chick on the metro who was the same complexion as Alek Wek with icey blue contacts. SMDH! I will never understand the hype about blue, green, hazel, or any other light colored eyes. I love my brown eyes.
on Fri 27 Nov 2009 at 23:31:49 soul

@herneith…
that’s the thing. I don’t even think many even have the gumption to go against it. I tis soo ingrained, so insidious, so ‘the norm’.

It’s similar to when a fmous person does something racist and before they even have time to form a defense a black friend of theirs, will defend them even to the death stating ‘that person is not racist I have lunch with them’. No it must be those blacks who ‘did’ something…

Growing up in this society one has to actually sometimes, work hard to break down inbuilt stereotypes about ourselves which we also trade on.

It’s soo damn infectuous
on Fri 27 Nov 2009 at 23:53:16 Aiyo

@Soul

“It must be those blacks who did something”

Yesh! The whole “they made me say something racist” crap.

Addicted to race had a podcast episode about a woman who claimed that she is turning into a racist becasue of the black and brown people

http://loveisntenough.com/2007/07/10/addicted-to-race-74-help-im-turning-into-a-racist/
on Sat 28 Nov 2009 at 03:00:48 alwaysright101

1. he looks creepy…its just weird how products can do that.

2. he actually looks younger from the products…

3. i have no opinion on people who either tan their skin (white people) or lighten their skin brighter (minorities). i don’t know their situation in life in which one has to do that so i am not going to judge them. all i feel is that its pointless to rag on people who do do those things, instead it seems better to combat the real problem which is the fact that we live in a society where people feel they have to do those kinds of things because of how they are treated. how to fix that problem is the million dollar question cause every race would have to make some changes…
on Sat 28 Nov 2009 at 19:53:44 no name

I’m tired of bp blaming everything on white america. As a bw the reason why I dont like black people sometimes is because of the way a large # of bp act. My feelings towards my race has nothing to do with what White America says and everything to do with too high a number of bp acting foolishly in every aspect of life. Call it self hate if you want.
There are bp individually that I like, but as a race…not so much. We have work to do.
on Mon 30 Nov 2009 at 19:35:34 DJ

He claims he used stuff to soften his skin and not to look white, yeah right. I guess everyone who wants their skin softer gets light eye contacts put in too.
on Thu 3 Dec 2009 at 04:14:28 cerole

alicia keys was LIGHTER when she first came out, and few years later she had tan.
on Sun 14 Feb 2010 at 20:27:51 tulio

I didn’t know Sosa had bleached his skin until coming across this article. He now looks like he’s wearing lipstick! Something definitely looks more feminine about him now.

My gut reaction is think it’s quite pathetic. But then I think is his skin bleaching any worst than the fact that most black women straighten their hair? They are both trying to get the same result, which is to look a bit less black. It’s interesting how chemically changing the skin to look white is now unacceptable, but chemically changing the hair(both in color and texture) to look like a white person’s is.
on Sun 14 Mar 2010 at 03:35:05 Will

Thanks for writing this blog. I try my hardest not to give in to the white racial frame that has programmed me since day one. It wasn’t until a couple of years ago that I started to research heavily in the process of deprogramming myself. Although I will always struggle to “break free” from this “program”, I will not succumb to the darkness white supremacy has created.
on Sun 4 Apr 2010 at 15:43:44 leigh204

Here’s a case for internalized racism. She’s Dawn Yang. A Singaporean blogger known for her extensive plastic surgeries. She has maintained she did NOT have her face done. What do you think?

http://x0e.xanga.com/d31f22f740034221879829/b174106972.jpg
on Sun 4 Apr 2010 at 15:56:39 FG

@leigh204,

It’s amazing that even people living in non-white countries feel the need to do that sort of thing.
on Sun 4 Apr 2010 at 16:03:10 leigh204

@FG:

@leigh204,

It’s amazing that even people living in non-white countries feel the need to do that sort of thing.

Yes, the internalized racism can be seen pretty much everywhere around the world.
on Sun 4 Apr 2010 at 16:06:43 leigh204

Dawn Yang has undergone quite the plastic surgery progression throughout the years. She looks so different.

http://hotcakeswithsausage.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/dawnyang.jpg
on Sun 4 Apr 2010 at 16:30:32 Ankhesen Mié

leigh204,

Oh my God! What the hell is wrong with this poor woman?
on Sun 4 Apr 2010 at 16:35:55 leigh204

@Ankhesen Mié:

I’ve been wondering the same thing. It’s scary, isn’t it? She’s gone from Asian to a straight up “white” girl.
on Sun 4 Apr 2010 at 17:43:19 Herneith

Pretty soon, her belly button will be where her nose was, LOL
on Sun 4 Apr 2010 at 18:03:15 leigh204

Hahahahaha! Oh, Herneith. You crack me up!
on Sun 4 Apr 2010 at 18:29:35 Ankhesen Mié

leigh204,

And what is with her “Michael Jackson” routine? She actually denies she’s had ish done?
on Sun 4 Apr 2010 at 18:38:27 leigh204

@Ankhesen Mié:

Yes, she mentioned she didn’t have any plastic surgery at all. The people who knew her in her younger days outed her and called her a liar. They even posted pics of her when she was younger.

http://www.shun2u.com/2008/05/dawn-yang-before-after.html

http://czariflores.blogspot.com/2007/12/dawn-yang-famous-blogger-because-of-her.html
on Sun 4 Apr 2010 at 19:51:13 Herneith

She has a perpetual bemused look on her face. Internalized racism at its best!
on Sun 4 Apr 2010 at 20:05:18 leigh204

She did a lot of facial surgeries. She looks so plastic it’s not even funny.
on Sun 4 Apr 2010 at 20:13:51 leigh204

Here’s another young woman who wanted plastic surgery to look like Jessica Alba! Her reason? Her ex-bf was obsessed over Jessica, and she wanted to get him back.

http://images.smh.com.au/2010/02/08/1101167/jessica_xiaoqing_420-420×0.jpg

http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/people/jessica-albas-doppelganger-distress-20100208-nlk3.html?comments=62
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 01:53:42 Eurasian Sensation

@ Leigh204:

interesting that you mention Dawn Yang. Have you seen her fellow Singaporean blogger XiaXue?

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_NWD6eKBy8S8/SzYeixyznuI/AAAAAAAAOkw/i9qP6wc8wzg/P1030719.jpg

and her photo pre-plastic surgery:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7uBC0kR5n74/SrZyNBhN1VI/AAAAAAAAA2c/siR0_2wkPNY/s1600-h/xx2+young.jpg

Granted, she wasn’t necessarily the greatest looking person before, but now she looks like an alien disguised as a white person.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 02:06:36 Ó Dochartaigh

Have these Asian girls admitted that they want to look more white? They still look Asian to me, but it is very sad about the one wanting to look like Jessica Alba because of her boyfriend. What kind of man would pressure his woman into getting plastic surgery?! Very sad indeed.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 02:11:21 leigh204

@Eurasian Sensation:

@ Leigh204:

interesting that you mention Dawn Yang. Have you seen her fellow Singaporean blogger XiaXue?

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_NWD6eKBy8S8/SzYeixyznuI/AAAAAAAAOkw/i9qP6wc8wzg/P1030719.jpg

and her photo pre-plastic surgery:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7uBC0kR5n74/SrZyNBhN1VI/AAAAAAAAA2c/siR0_2wkPNY/s1600-h/xx2+young.jpg

Granted, she wasn’t necessarily the greatest looking person before, but now she looks like an alien disguised as a white person.

Yeah, I thought of Xiaxue aka Wedny Cheng, too. She had a nosejob. It’s scary how much they’ve changed facially particularly Dawn Yang.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 02:14:04 leigh204

@Ó Dochartaigh:

Have these Asian girls admitted that they want to look more white? They still look Asian to me, but it is very sad about the one wanting to look like Jessica Alba because of her boyfriend. What kind of man would pressure his woman into getting plastic surgery?! Very sad indeed.

These young women haven’t come outright and say they wanted to look more white. However, can you honestly look at these pics and say otherwise?
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 02:19:36 Ó Dochartaigh

Leigh

Well I don’t know, they definitely look more Japanese/Korean. I honestly don’t know what the fashion industry is like in Asia, but a few of them look like they are trying to look Japanese. You know more about this than I do so I will take your word for it.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 02:25:48 Ó Dochartaigh

I was actually really pissed about the Jessica Alba story, when I heard it for the first time. She must not have much self respect, and I can’t even begin to describe how big of a loser her boyfriend must be.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 02:35:03 leigh204

Her former boyfriend is a moron and so is she. If I had a man tell me I should have plastic surgery to look like so-and-so, I’d tell him to take a flying leap, but with not-so-nice words.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 02:38:21 Eurasian Sensation

@Ó Dochartaigh:

“Have these Asian girls admitted that they want to look more white?”

I think one of the things about internalized racism is that most people who suffer from it are unlikely to admit that they are trying to look like some other race, or that they are ashamed of what they are.

This might be because they do not admit it to themselves – perhaps they are completely brainwashed by societal beauty myths – or they are embarassed about copping to it.

Personally, I struggled with internalized racism as a teenager – I really despised my nose, which is broad with big nostrils (courtesy of my Indonesian side). I wanted a thin nose like all the (white) guys I saw who were considered good looking at the time.

It was actually not until I got into hip-hop culture in my late teens that I noticed that there were plenty of guys with broad noses and fat lips like mine who were considered both cool and good-looking.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 02:47:35 leigh204

@Eurasian Sensation:

@Ó Dochartaigh:

“Have these Asian girls admitted that they want to look more white?”

I think one of the things about internalized racism is that most people who suffer from it are unlikely to admit that they are trying to look like some other race, or that they are ashamed of what they are.

This might be because they do not admit it to themselves – perhaps they are completely brainwashed by societal beauty myths – or they are embarassed about copping to it.

Personally, I struggled with internalized racism as a teenager – I really despised my nose, which is broad with big nostrils (courtesy of my Indonesian side). I wanted a thin nose like all the (white) guys I saw who were considered good looking at the time.

It was actually not until I got into hip-hop culture in my late teens that I noticed that there were plenty of guys with broad noses and fat lips like mine who were considered both cool and good-looking.

I can relate with you. In my younger years, I was made fun of due to my eyes and it made me feel badly about myself so much so I even wanted to have eyelid surgery. I told my mother what I wanted to do and she expressed her disapproval. She said my eyes were fine and I didn’t need it (surgery). She went on to say the ones with the problem were those people making fun of my eyes and not me. I’m so glad my mother set me straight.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 03:05:12 Jasmin

Leigh,

I’m glad you didn’t get eyelid surgery! I saw some reality show with girls getting the creases, and I was traumatized. It looked like they’d been punched in the eye afterward, and even the final result was just puffy–not attractive.

Unfortunately, minority kids in environments made up predominantly of people of their own race still take out that internalized racism on each other. When I was young, kids usually got made fun of for being dark-skinned (and “ashy”, as if other people can’t be ashy too) and having big lips. Those attitudes are learned (and reinforced) at such a young age.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 03:15:56 Ó Dochartaigh

Eurasian Sensation

“I think one of the things about internalized racism is that most people who suffer from it are unlikely to admit that they are trying to look like some other race, or that they are ashamed of what they are.”

So white girls who constantly go to the tanning salon, get lip injections, and butt injections, are they suffering from internalized racism? Or what about Asian men that dress like thugs and talk like their from the ghetto, even though they have probably never even been in one? Are they suffering from internalized racism as well?

Your screen name is awesome btw!
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 03:24:18 Herneith

@ Leigh:

If I had a man tell me I should have plastic surgery to look like so-and-so, I’d tell him to take a flying leap, but with not-so-nice words.

Tell them to take a flying leap off the nearest cliff! Hahahaha! If they don’t understand that then perhaps stronger words should be called for!
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 03:25:05 leigh204

@Jasmin:

Leigh,

I’m glad you didn’t get eyelid surgery! I saw some reality show with girls getting the creases, and I was traumatized. It looked like they’d been punched in the eye afterward, and even the final result was just puffy–not attractive.

I kid you not when I’m saying the Asian girls who get eyelid surgery, it’s practically a rite of passage

Unfortunately, minority kids in environments made up predominantly of people of their own race still take out that internalized racism on each other. When I was young, kids usually got made fun of for being dark-skinned (and “ashy”, as if other people can’t be ashy too) and having big lips. Those attitudes are learned (and reinforced) at such a young age.

I agree. Why my own sister was teased relentlessly as a child by relatives for having a very flat nose and deeply tanned skin. She grew into her features. And look at her now. She’s absolutely gorgeous!
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 03:27:30 leigh204

@Herneith:

@ Leigh:

If I had a man tell me I should have plastic surgery to look like so-and-so, I’d tell him to take a flying leap, but with not-so-nice words.

Tell them to take a flying leap off the nearest cliff! Hahahaha! If they don’t understand that then perhaps stronger words should be called for!

That’s why I mentioned I would say it with not-so-nice words.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 03:44:39 leigh204

I agree. Why my own sister was teased relentlessly as a child by relatives for having a very flat nose and deeply tanned skin. She grew into her features. And look at her now. She’s absolutely gorgeous!

I forgot to add she was beautiful to begin with and became more beautiful (if that was even possible) when she grew up.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 04:45:01 Eurasian Sensation

@ Ó Dochartaigh:

“So white girls who constantly go to the tanning salon, get lip injections, and butt injections, are they suffering from internalized racism? Or what about Asian men that dress like thugs and talk like their from the ghetto, even though they have probably never even been in one? Are they suffering from internalized racism as well?”

Hard me to comment on what white girls do because I’m not one. Maybe they are. Regarding Asian men acting “ghetto”, that’s funny for me, because I’ll cop to that – like many places in the world, hip-hop culture is big where I live, particularly with ethnic minorities. And I’ve certainly absorbed some of those ways of speech, dress and acting, although I’m the last person anyone would call a thug. I mentioned in my earlier comment about how my contact with Af-Am culture (with brown people remaining proud and cool amidst a white mainstream) actually allowed me to embrace the non-white side of my self.

I guess one of the things to consider is how being a minority, particularly a disempowered one, can impact on whether it is internalized racism or not.
Non-white people living in a society dominated by white people, are often subject to relentless conditioning about how white people are more beautiful/intelligent/whatever. Thus many come to despise parts of who they are. (Granted, this has changed a lot in the last couple of decades.)

I’m not sure if this situation is the same with white girls wanting to have thicker lips and bigger butts.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 05:24:30 Ó Dochartaigh

To Eurasian

“Non-white people living in a society dominated by white people, are often subject to relentless conditioning about how white people are more beautiful/intelligent/whatever. Thus many come to despise parts of who they are.”

I can understand this, and it is obvious that there is a lot of pressure from the majority to act like the majority even if your not.

I have a hypothesis as to why white people act like a minority, I think it has a lot to do with guilt, feeling guilty for what their race has done to minorities. Also self hate, and trying to get attention from other white people. It is hard to say, I’m sure it has a lot to do with their environment.

I will be honest though it really throws me for a loop when I see a Asian person acting ghetto, urban, or whatever you want to call it. I know your not American, but do Asians have a cutler in white countries that is not white or black? Do Asian-Americans have a culture or lifestyle that is their own?

Maybe Leigh can comment on this as well.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 05:47:16 Jasmin

OD,

I’m not going to lie, that was a dumb-a** question right there. I hope no one dignifies it with an answer.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 05:58:48 Ó Dochartaigh

No question is a dumb question, especially because I don’t personally know any Asian people, and it is not something you see on T.V. or in music, Asian people don’t seem to have that.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 06:28:37 abagond

I agree, I do not anyone to think that a question is too dumb to ask – so long as they are serious about it and not just being some kind of troll.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 13:24:06 leigh204

Jasmin

OD,

I’m not going to lie, that was a dumb-a** question right there. I hope no one dignifies it with an answer.

Jasmin, I have to put my two cents worth. The old saying “Ignorance is bliss” is not applicable here. I have to set him straight.

Ó Dochartaigh

I will be honest though it really throws me for a loop when I see a Asian person acting ghetto, urban, or whatever you want to call it. I know your not American, but do Asians have a cutler in white countries that is not white or black? Do Asian-Americans have a culture or lifestyle that is their own?

Maybe Leigh can comment on this as well.

I’m not exactly sure what you meant by culture or lifestyle, but here’s what I’m familiar with. Here, in certain parts of Canada and in different places of the US, there is a huge subculture among Asian-Americans known as the Import Scene. There are other names for it as well. The Import Scene is pretty much about modifying imported Japanese cars so it can go much faster when street racing. There are also sexy models called import models and they help sell products, brands, services, etc. Here’s a link so you can get an idea of what I’m talking about.

http://www.importtuner.com/index.html
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 13:56:45 Natasha W

I don’t think Ó Dochartaigh’s question is dumb at all. I went to a high school where over half of the students were of Asian descent. I noticed the East Asians generally assimilate into middle class white culture (a few into “hip-hop” culture). They shopped at Abercrombie and American Eagle, listened to trendy pop music, and generally ignored or shunned anything that might be seen as too ethnically Asian.

However, the Southeast Asians like the Vietnamese and Cambodians, had a separate culture. They would speak their languages to each other in classes or on the train (which East Asians tended to avoid, unless they were talking about someone and they didn’t want them to know), listened to artists from their countries, had a different style of make-up and hair dressing. Some were into the hip-hop culture; usually the males. But they seemed to enjoy having a unique identity and would gladly share things about their culture.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 15:53:46 Eurasian Sensation

@ Ó Dochartaigh:

At first read I thought it was a dumb question too, but on reflection, I take that back. We all come from different backgrounds and experiences here, so I’m glad you were willing to ask rather than assume, as many would do.

Asian-Americans, Asian-Australians, and Asian-whatever elses do have a distinct cultural experience. But it’s tricky to define, for a few reasons:

1. Asia is a big place and very diverse. The Cambodian-American experience could be entirely different from the Korean-American experience.

2. Asians born in a Western country tend to be quite different from those who are sometimes labelled FOBs (fresh off the boat). There is a whole spectrum of exposure to the cultures of their ancestral country and the country of their residence.

3. Some Asians end up in the West as refugees (typically
Cambodians, Vietnamese, Burmese). Others come as students or economic migrants (Japanese, Chinese, Malaysians, etc). Their experience can be very different; the latter group tends to perform better in many social indicators, for reasons I’m sure you’d understand.

Asians who grow up in the West can be very Asian in some aspects, but very un-Asian in others. Hopefully we take the best from both worlds!

Natasha W’s comment above is a good example of how these dynamics can play out, but I should point out that she describes HER high school; go to another school somewhere else, and those dynamics might be very different.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 16:20:36 leigh204

@Eurasian Sensation:

Natasha W’s comment above is a good example of how these dynamics can play out, but I should point out that she describes HER high school; go to another school somewhere else, and those dynamics might be very different.

I agree. For example, I attended a high school where it was mostly white. There was not a lot of Asians there or POC for that matter. And the few Asians of different ethnicities I came in contact with, we stuck together. We shopped at the same stores, listened to the same music, frequented popular hangouts, etc. Only after I left high school, did the high school dynamics change and there were way more POC than had been in the past.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 16:20:51 Jasmin

Here’s what I read: “Do Asian Americans do anything other than imitate White or Black people?”, a question that makes the following assumptions.

1) “White” culture and “Black” culture are monolithic …

2) … and the only ones that exist …

3) … and an Asian person who acts in any ways that fit with this culture can’t just be being himself–he must be imitating the locals! Perpetual foreigner much?

OD, given that you managed to find, comment, and use HTML on a blog, I would bet a) you know how to use Google and b) you realize there’s more to life than what you see on TV.

But generally, I don’t like to play the “teach White people about minorities game”–I have a problem with the ignorant White learner/wise minority teacher dichotomy. My response: go read a d*mn book, then we’ll talk.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 16:31:00 Natasha W

EurasianSensation,

Natasha W’s comment above is a good example of how these dynamics can play out, but I should point out that she describes HER high school; go to another school somewhere else, and those dynamics might be very different.

Yes, that’s true. I should also add these were mainly second-generation immigrants. It’s probably different for those who were born in Asian countries or those whose families have been in the US longer.

leigh,

And the few Asians of different ethnicities I came in contact with, we stuck together. We shopped at the same stores, listened to the same music, frequented popular hangouts, etc.

Yes, that’s how the Southeast Asians that I knew were. They were very close knit.

Jasmin,

Here’s what I read: “Do Asian Americans do anything other than imitate White or Black people?”

I do see how it could have been read that way and how the question might have come off offensively.

But generally, I don’t like to play the “teach White people about minorities game”–I have a problem with the ignorant White learner/wise minority teacher dichotomy

That is always an interesting dynamic, isn’t it? But I generally try not to take things offensively if the person seems genuinely interested and isn’t pigeonholing too much. Some people like to learn from others’ experiences and opinions rather than what’s written in books.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 16:45:24 Ó Dochartaigh

Thanks you guy/gals! Leigh I guess I have seen the import scene before and just didn’t know what it was, I realize now why some people call them rice burners, another racist term I didn’t know about. I didn’t mean to offend anybody, but it so much nicer hearing someones opinion than using Google, as Jasmin said. Also I think Asian people should have a subculture, I just had never really seen it before. If we were all the same and everybody tried to act middle class white, it would be a very boring world.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 17:45:54 B. R.

Hip hop being picked up around the world is something that has repeated itself since the Cake Walk, into the Charlston, into the Lindy Hop, with the jazz music that went with it, blues into rock and roll of Chuck Berry and Little Richard, into rhtytm and blues and funk , into disco , into hip hop….

Black American culture has been an extremly powerful world affecting force for the last 100 plus years.

It is not surprising that kids from anywhere in the world or in the USA take to it and want to assimulate into it.

I dont think that means they regect their own culture outright , but sometimes maybe.

But black American culture is very powerful.

And , I think everyone goes through phases of not being comfortable with how they look.

It takes a while for someone to be really at ease with who they are and how they look.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 18:09:41 Ó Dochartaigh

B.R.

I think a lot of times POC and white people both get bored with their culture, and want something new and different and is not necessarily internalized racism. If a black person is proud of their skin color but likes white culture more, I don’t see anything wrong with that. As long as they don’t hate themselves for being black. Any thoughts?
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 18:30:29 Jasmin

Natasha,

With people who actually know me (or want to know me, rather than take a magical ride through Black people land) there’s no problem. But many people (unconsciously or not) take a voyeuristic approach to getting to know minorities: asking questions (and seeing how “they” do) is fine, but actually associating with one? Hell no! There’s a fine line between treating minorities like a safari adventure and seeking one out just to get “street cred”. I find many people don’t really know how to straddle it.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 18:32:11 Leaveumthinking

If a black person is proud of their skin color but likes white culture more, I don’t see anything wrong with that.

What exactly is white culture? What does this white culture consist of?
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 18:46:34 Ó Dochartaigh

Leaveumthinking

Have you ever seen a black cowboy? How about a black hillbilly? I have seen black people like this, they will go to bluegrass festivals and basically be the only black person there. But I think it is fine to see black folk embrace mountain culture, I don’t think it is self hating either as long as they are proud of being black and don’t wish to be white.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 18:51:39 Ó Dochartaigh

Jasmin

“But many people (unconsciously or not) take a voyeuristic approach to getting to know minorities: asking questions (and seeing how “they” do) is fine, but actually associating with one? Hell no! There’s a fine line between treating minorities like a safari adventure and seeking one out just to get “street cred”.

I have an Aunt who is black, two cousins who are black, and two more cousins on the other side of my family who are half black. So I certainly don’t treat black folk like a “Safari Adventure” to get my “street cred,” they are my family for gods sake. I’m from the country so I don’t need “street cred” anyhow.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 19:02:43 ColorOfLuv

@O’ Dochartaigh

Black cowboys do exist. They are primarily in Texas. Just wanted to throw that out there in response to your post.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 19:11:01 Ó Dochartaigh

colorofluv

As they should, that was my point. What is even more rare is a black man on a tractor with a flannel shirt, john deer hat, and a big ol dip of Copenhagen in his lip. I have a neighbor like that. So I try not to generalize POC.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 19:12:50 ColorOfLuv

understood…
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 19:24:04 Leaveumthinking

O Dochartaigh

Yes Ive heard of black cowboys. In Texas I know of quite a few blacks who own their own horses, go on trail rides, cookouts, and festivals if thats the same thing your talking about. And no I dont think its self hate.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 19:59:17 FG

“Hip hop being picked up around the world is something that has repeated itself since the Cake Walk, into the Charlston, into the Lindy Hop, with the jazz music that went with it, blues into rock and roll of Chuck Berry and Little Richard, into rhtytm and blues and funk , into disco , into hip hop….”

“Hip hop” culture is a rather hazardous export, if I must say.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 20:24:07 leigh204

How about this guy? He’s part of a South Korean R&B duo and he looks quite different now.

http://popseoul.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/0517-before-after.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_vC7rHR9oCKU/RxRBDiPOkLI/AAAAAAAABGc/97xXsjNYhFk/s400/Hwanhee.jpg
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 20:25:42 Jasmin

OD,

Who said I was talking about you? And why do you feel the need to defend yourself against a general statement?

I think the road Leaveumthinking is going down (correct me if I’m wrong) is that more White people doing something than Black people doesn’t make that part of “White culture”. Aren’t hillbillies part of “hillbilly culture”? And cowboys part of “Western/Southern/Texan” culture? Being White isn’t a prerequisite to being an “authentic” (whatever that means) part of those groups, so I don’t see them as “White culture” with any non-White person who takes part in them being an imitator. Just like I don’t think “Black culture” is made up of just Blacks (so it’s not really “Black, but I think you get the point).
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 21:12:04 Jade

Jasmin said:I think the road Leaveumthinking is going down (correct me if I’m wrong) is that more White people doing something than Black people doesn’t make that part of “White culture”. Aren’t hillbillies part of “hillbilly culture”? And cowboys part of “Western/Southern/Texan” culture? Being White isn’t a prerequisite to being an “authentic” (whatever that means) part of those groups, so I don’t see them as “White culture” with any non-White person who takes part in them being an imitator. Just like I don’t think “Black culture” is made up of just Blacks (so it’s not really “Black”….”
************************

I agree, being a certain color shouldn’t be a prerequisite to participate in mainstream cultures or its subcultures and no one should be thought of as being an imitator for partaking in different cultural influences.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 21:25:26 poetess

I’m a black cowgirl who likes country and bluegrass music.
on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 21:33:22 B. R.

When I say black American culture, I mean the culture that black Americans innovated .

Sure, up and down , white people latched on to this cultural expresion and produced great expresionists also.

Absolutly nothing wrong with that, but when these white artists, some pretty mediocre, came into the picture, they had the record companies and hollywood studios and media behind them and the financial rewards went mostly to these white artists, of course with some exceptions.

Jazz is a great example. It had been around a while before the record companies recorded the first jazz disc. and it was a white band. And one of their members said blacks had nothing to do with jazz. Jazz is a music that comes from black culture in America, with many influences, including European harmony.

Talk about bold face lies by those white jazz players that got the first recording contract , that just started a trend that goes on into today. The great records back then were made by Loius Armstrong, and every one from Frank Sinatra, Tony Bennet, Billie Holiday and Bing Crosby and the rest, got their swinging singing style from Louis.

And who could deny that people like Fred Astair and Ginger Rogers didnt totaly represent cutting edge white hipness of America in the 30′s?Yet with very little success for the great black tap dancers that influenced him and were in great abundance and talent at that time. Tap , a black American cultural innovation, was a world wide dance craze, and huge in America . Fred sure knew where he got it from , doing tributes to the great black tap dancers.But the media regulated great black talent to a small space on the horizon of American culture

Hip hop not relavent? I was in New York when hip hop was being invented, and it was break dancing at first, and , break dancing is one of the most exiting volitable, visceral dances around. I work with break dancers now and it is one beautiful thing, you would have to trot out the passistas dancing samba for me to shift my attention away from some great break dancing and hitting beats.

To answer your question, O, is it internalised racism for white people to cop black culture in music and dance and then reap the comercial success for it? Im not sure, but, it is some kind of racism. The biggest problem is that white people wont really ackowledge it in a big way. Its like being in denial.Its kind of a microcosm of the problem with white racism in general.
on Tue 6 Apr 2010 at 00:28:09 Leaveumthinking

I think the road Leaveumthinking is going down (correct me if I’m wrong) is that more White people doing something than Black people doesn’t make that part of “White culture”. Aren’t hillbillies part of “hillbilly culture”? And cowboys part of “Western/Southern/Texan” culture? Being White isn’t a prerequisite to being an “authentic” (whatever that means) part of those groups, so I don’t see them as “White culture” with any non-White person who takes part in them being an imitator. Just like I don’t think “Black culture” is made up of just Blacks (so it’s not really “Black, but I think you get the point).

Exactly Jasmin. Nothing else to add here.
on Tue 6 Apr 2010 at 01:44:13 Ó Dochartaigh

Jasmin

“Who said I was talking about you”?

Because your last two comments were directed to me and how “dumb a**” my questions are.
on Tue 6 Apr 2010 at 03:08:35 Jasmin

Then I guess your real name is “many people”?
on Tue 6 Apr 2010 at 11:27:40 Vindicator

My pet hates of internalized racism:
1. Black Dominicans denying their black heritage.
2. Black Men dissing Black Women.
3. Black Women dissing Black Men.
4. Light Skinned vs Dark Skinned.
5. Good Hair vs Bad Hair.
6. East Asians vs South East Asians.
7. People wanting to change their race (cough Sammy Sosa!)

I’m sure there’s more!
on Tue 6 Apr 2010 at 14:57:47 Leaveumthinking

Vindicator I agree

@ Abagond how about posts covering these topics that you have not covered yet concerning internal racism.

1. Black Dominicans denying their black heritage.
2. Black Men dissing Black Women.
3. Black Women dissing Black Men
6. East Asians vs South East Asians.
on Tue 6 Apr 2010 at 23:06:34 leigh204

I second that, Leaveumthinking!
on Tue 6 Apr 2010 at 23:55:30 FG

Do darker Dominicans deny their African ancestry (which would be difficult for them to do in many cases) or do they reject race-based (as opposed to culture-based) identity? Those are two very different things.
on Sun 23 May 2010 at 10:54:17 Image

I could never do anything like this to myself; I don’t care who, what, why, when, but everyone handles things differently. It’s beyond sad; I mentioned this earlier on another post, and then ran into this one about Sosa because I’m super late and didn’t know a thing about it until today.

I do think that Asian/Indian skin lightening does not get as much attention as someone of African decent in spite of both of them being huge industries people of those regions, but it makes sense to me.

All are disturbing in my eyes, regardless, but a little bit more disturbing to me with people of African decent because of the extremity. By this, I mean black people have a greater capacity to produce melanin so to go from one extreme…to another extreme is pretty damn dramatic, like in the case of Sosa.

Obviously, there are Indians with darker skin than some black folks and that can be dramatic too, but they are not considered black and neither do they consider themselves as black and there are many others in their society who have pale skin, so it’s not as dramatic in that sense. Concerning black people, yes we come in just about all shades/hues but the color of this guy as well as MJ is no color..it’s just paleness. Even black albinos have more color than this and they actually lack the enzyme to make melanin. This guy looks literally washed out—he looks ill.
-smh
on Sun 23 May 2010 at 13:47:48 leigh204

A few years ago, I remember hearing about this cosmetic surgery reality show in the Philippines called Miss Ugly No More. It’s about taking ordinary looking women and transforming them into beautiful ladies. The candidates had to write an essay on why they should be chosen for this show. If I recall, many women wrote they wanted to change what they considered were physical imperfections such as their skin coloring and noses. In the Philippines as well as many parts of Asia, the light skin is ideal and the noses have to be “high”, almost aquiline. If you look closest to white then you’re all right.

http://i49.tinypic.com/2djnbyp.jpg
on Sun 23 May 2010 at 15:58:10 Thaddeus

Well, here’s my question: why is it more important to criticize whiteness as beauty than it is to criticize the notion of iconic beauty in and of itself?

I mean, is it REALLY an advance to open the possible “pallettes” of feminine beauty from 5 (or whatever number) to six by including a light-brown “African-American” princess to hold Barbie’s train?

Seems to me that what we do here is further engrave the notion that beauty is a singular object, restricted to a very few. Within that logic, those Phillipino women a re being a hell of a lot more pragmatic than the anti-racist who thinks buying a brown Malibu Barbie for his niece is a step in the right direction.
on Sun 23 May 2010 at 16:00:16 Thaddeus

This is why I feel that as long as Abagond celebrates iconic images of feminine beauty, it really makes little difference if they are black or white. What 99.99% of the women on the planet know is that they will NEVER look like that. Someone like, say, Precisous isn’t being anymore “empowered” by so-called “people of color” like J-Lo than she is by Britney Spears.
on Sun 23 May 2010 at 17:04:25 Y

Yuck, Leigh that link made me sick… To be honest those women no longer look like Filipinas! The look more like NE Asians, so sad.

The woman on the far left was very pretty before her transformation. Grant, she is still pretty after but they basically did ethnic tweaking on these women, so sad.
on Sun 23 May 2010 at 17:15:29 leigh204

@Y:

From what I can see in the pic, the most obvious procedure the surgeons did is skin lightening. And I noticed the nose jobs, too. I read other procedures included: breast augmentation, liposuction, and chin implants.
on Sun 23 May 2010 at 17:43:00 Image

There is beauty in every group of people, but “white” beauty is often put on a pedestal-sometimes only in the realm of just having “white” skin and nothing more (like comparing an overweight black woman with an overweight white women, neither obviously have a “barbie” look; it may very well come down to having white skin as it has “iconic” value —
As a result others are compared and contrasted to “white” beauty as if it holds merit over all the plenty of other extremely beautiful nonwhite people in the world who look nothing like them in skin color and/or otherwise.

and…I do think the barbie look is over-rated independent of and relating to the white standard of beauty.

I just recently got here but def. abagond has celebrated more than the barbie-type look, especially concerning black women: myles, buffie etc.
on Sun 23 May 2010 at 19:33:23 Leaveumthinking

Image I agree with your statement.
on Sun 23 May 2010 at 20:01:14 J

An interesting question:

“Well, here’s my question: why is it more important to criticize whiteness as beauty than it is to criticize the notion of iconic beauty in and of itself.”

Here’s my view I think we as humans are interested in beauty and as long as we can create our own ideals of beauty as ‘group’. Then there may not be THAT many issues.

I do understand that most Western women do not look like the supermodels. So this is in a matter in and of itself. Off late in the UK at least there has been a ‘minor revolt’ against the ideal of ‘feminine beauty’ as it relates specifically to size (specifically size zero).

As it stands there is only a White standard of beauty will large amount of nationalities, races etc being ommitted, I think this is the bone of contention, as it relates specifically to your question.

Hope this is clear!!
on Sun 23 May 2010 at 21:11:49 Thaddeus

Yeah, I understand, but why fight for “inclusion” if inclusion means the minscule expansion of a tiny genre and it comes at the cost of the reification and naturalization of said genre?

I mean, we’re actually supposed to be pleased that Disney now has a (light brown) African American princess. With, you’ll notice, an hour-glass figure and what seems to be straightened hair.

Society reifies and naturalizes this sort of beauty as ultimately desireable by retaining the “Disney Princess” category while it makes a small adjustment. A VERY small adjustment, note.

We can have tokenism, in other words, as long as the dominance of the central image is not threatened. Why fight for this?

(Does it show that I’ve been reading post-modernist theory for 10 days now?)
on Sun 23 May 2010 at 21:39:19 J

I think I may have mis-understood your initial queion.

I have to agree with you on the Disney analogy, but is this not how racism works? The ‘out-group’ wants to ‘integrate’ with the ‘in-group’, rather than developing their own ideals, standards etc
on Sun 23 May 2010 at 22:22:04 leigh204

A closer look of Sammy Sosa’s face. Oooh, geez.

Why, Sammy, why?

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.stylelist.com/media/2010/01/sammy-sosa-skin-lightening-1263833439.jpg
on Sun 23 May 2010 at 22:24:40 Image

I have a question for you Thaddeus or anyone who cares to give input:

If the black princess had been natural and a bit more full figured, do you think some black people would have possibly seen this as streotypical (black women are supposedly more “thick”) or even look down on it? I mean, some of us still haven’t accepted our own natural hair.
on Sun 23 May 2010 at 22:29:12 Image

Leigh204, Yeah, it looks really bad.
on Sun 23 May 2010 at 22:29:43 MerriMay

Yikes!! Leigh when you bring it that close up, lol, I’m going to barf!! He doesn’t even look light skinned, more like he fell into a barrel of talcum powder!!
on Sun 23 May 2010 at 22:38:24 leigh204

In my language, he would be referred to as looking like a multo…a ghost. Sammy looks sickly…unhealthy.
on Sun 23 May 2010 at 23:07:37 Y

Talk about internalized racism…peep this link of a BLACK SINGLE MOTHER! Endoring an author that claims blacks are genetically predisposed to birthing children out of wedlock.

http://www.jamilaakil.com/2010/05/why-race-matters/
on Sun 23 May 2010 at 23:09:45 Thaddeus

The ‘out-group’ wants to ‘integrate’ with the ‘in-group’, rather than developing their own ideals, standards etc

Except in this case the “out group” is formed of at least 90% of the female half of the species. Maybe more.

If the black princess had been natural and a bit more full figured, do you think some black people would have possibly seen this as streotypical (black women are supposedly more “thick”) or even look down on it? I mean, some of us still haven’t accepted our own natural hair.

Probably. But again, a “bit” more full-figured…? Most women I know, white or black, have NOTHING like that sort of figure, whether or not we put a bit more meat on the bones.

This is why I don’t buy Abagond’s “thick versus thin” comparison. ALL of those women have unreal bodies when compared with the vast majority of human females on this planet.
on Sun 23 May 2010 at 23:21:26 J

I am not sure I understand then…[best keep quiet - thinking to myself]

I had thought you were referring to a particular shade of Black and that Blacks generally were happy to be inclusive in this respect. I guess not
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 00:01:45 Thaddeus

Well, I think what I’m trying to say is why should any of us see this sort of tokenism as inclusive in any way, shape or form?
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 00:16:36 J

Not to worRy…

Still do not understand but like the pun ha ha ha

‘Well, I think what I’m trying to say is why should any of us see this sort of tokenism as inclusive in any way, SHAPE OR FORM’?
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 00:25:44 Thaddeus

…or size?
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 10:55:43 Mira

Thad, I hear you. But Barbies are meant for kids (to mess with their innocent minds). A little girl, white or black, thin or chubby- she doesn’t know what’s she’s going to look like as a woman. She doesn’t know what her figure is going to be; but she knows what her skind, and hair, and eye colour are going to be.

In that sense, while I don’t see Barbie dolls as a good thing in general, I do think it’s a good thing for a girl to have a doll that, in a way, looks like her (in phenotype).

Look, I grew up in a 100% white country, and yet, I could never truly like my blonde Barbies. At the time, only blonde Barbies were available in Yugoslavia, and I guess I could never see her as “myself as a woman” in any way. I am sure I’d love black Barbie more because she’s a dark eyed brunette.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I understand what you’re saying. Promoting “only one form of beauty” is not much worse than “promoting only two forms of beauty”. Still, in this day and age, racism is still going strong, and if it’s obvious black women of all sizes can identify better with a black woman of any size, I do think promoting non-white beauty is a good thing.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 11:59:43 J

Now I think I understand. Funnily enough this is what I had wanted to say, in fact it is what I had thought I had said….Perhaps not then (the divergence of what you want you want to say and what actually comes out in words)

“Still, in this day and age, racism is still going strong, and if it’s obvious black women of ALL sizes can identify better with a black woman of ANY size, I do think promoting non-white beauty is a good thing”.

I agree with this assessment.

The only other possibility is to to do away with White standard of beauty’. Then all ‘races etc’ will be in the same ‘proverbial boat’. I cannot se this happening somehow, since it is ‘natural’ for races etc to promote some aspect of ‘beauty’, even if it is through art etc.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 12:32:07 leigh204

Speaking of internalized racism, another poster commented on one of abagond’s post. She mentioned she visited a forum and there was this odd question: “Would you rather look Eurasian or Asian?”. If I remember correctly, the majority of the young women wanted to look half white. What does that tell you? That looking white or part white is desirable.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 12:44:48 leigh204

@Mira:

Look, I grew up in a 100% white country, and yet, I could never truly like my blonde Barbies. At the time, only blonde Barbies were available in Yugoslavia, and I guess I could never see her as “myself as a woman” in any way. I am sure I’d love black Barbie more because she’s a dark eyed brunette.

I only had blond Barbies when I was a child. My mom looked for an Asian doll but all the stores she went to only carried blond Barbies. At one point, I honestly believed I was going to grow up to be this statuesque, blonde, blue-eyed, woman not the petite, black-haired, dark brown-eyed person today.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 12:48:29 Mira

At one point, I honestly believed I was going to grow up to be this statuesque, blonde, blue-eyed, woman not the petite, black-haired, dark brown-eyed person today.

You seem to be happy with who you are today, but what about all those girls who are, so to speak, disappointed?

I don’t know, I always knew I’m not going to look like a blonde Barbie, but I never liked dolls; I played with stuffed animals (what does that say about me )
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 13:25:13 leigh204

@Mira:

You seem to be happy with who you are today, but what about all those girls who are, so to speak, disappointed?

I hope abagond does a post on this shortly, but this a part of internalized racism. I mentioned earlier in this post that when I was a younger, I was made fun of because of my “Asian” eyes.

I grew up in a predominantly white neighborhood btw. I had children pulling the corners of their eyes making mock Chinese sounds. (Oh, and ching chong is not a word, damn it!) It pained me that children could be so cruel. I just wanted to fit in.

I remember I learned about eyelid surgery through some tv show for people with droopy lids. I thought this procedure would work for me so I asked my mom and she strongly objected.

She reminded me that my eyes were fine and nothing was wrong with them. She also said there was something wrong with the children for making fun of my eyes.

So you see, I’m so fortunate I had a mother who set me straight in the first place. I would’ve been one of many Asian girls who had eyelid surgery. Now I can’t say eyelid surgery is wrong, but…just not for me.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 14:10:40 leigh204

Oopsie. I meant I hope abagond does a post on this shortly: Asian Eyelid Surgery.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 15:00:31 J

This sums it all up, and in a way why it is hard to fight the effects of internalised racism whether as a child or as an adult (with it being harder for children because they do not fully understand):

“I just wanted to fit in”

Yes like everyone of us – as human beings
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 15:16:10 Natasha W

Thad, I get what you’re saying, but Disney’s black princess doesn’t look that different from the majority of black Americans. I wouldn’t say her skin is light brown either, more like solid brown, like most blacks:

http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00038/tianaAP_38925t.jpg

As for her figure, I didn’t notice. I don’t inspect women’s figures that closely. Now that I Google it, it just looks like her dress is too tight.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 15:21:14 Image

The blonde hair blue eyes cache seems so Hilter-ish to me

Thaddeus- I guess that is my point, no matter what she looked liked (Mrs. Princess Frog), I think people would have found something wrong with her, so catch 22. I, btw, enjoyed the movie thoroughly as did my nieces.

Along the lines of what Mira said, no one group of people hold the patent on being “Barbie” size, heck, you can work out and get that the healthy way, but there are people who hold the patent on being white, lol they’re born with it. To non white women, being Barbie size is only half way.

Yeah, while anorexia is awful, most people who suffer from this from what I know are young white women. I still think bleaching is just..well..depressing and dishonoring to people of color entirely and on an entirely different level psychologically.

leigh204 – Your mother is absolutely right–there is something wrong with them. You have very pretty facial features, including your eyes. Funny people call them that, “Asian” eyes because I’ve seen quite a few black people with “Asian” eyes and many with no known Asian ancestry.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 15:29:34 Image

Yes, we all want to “fit” in but why does my or her or anyone’s fitting in often come down to people wanting to look more white, and white people are not even the majority in this world, not even close. That is what’s so disturbing to me; it doesn’t even logically make sense.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 15:36:45 J

It just shows you how effective the ‘brainwashing’ has/is been and how universal, since it operates on a global scale, with a populace that is around 8%.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 15:56:03 Natasha W

Image, I don’t think it’s just everyone else wanting to be white. Whites often want to look “different/exotic” and that involves desiring features that are more common amongst other groups of people. Especially since the flavor du jour became a more ambiguous look rather than lily white. Pale people are always trying to tan (my SO’s family always compliments my skin color, as they tend to be very pale) or those with thin lips wear lip gloss that plumps their lips. Yet no one pegs this as self-hate.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 15:58:52 FG

“Yes, we all want to “fit” in but why does my or her or anyone’s fitting in often come down to people wanting to look more white, and white people are not even the majority in this world, not even close. That is what’s so disturbing to me; it doesn’t even logically make sense.”

I wouldn’t say that the dominant beauty standard in the world is “the whiter the better.” It’s a bit more loose than that. Rather, what is widely regarded as attractive in women are caucasoidal facial features (not necessarily including thin lips) and non-dark skin. There are quite a few non-white women who fit this description, such as the current copper-toned Arab Miss USA Rima Fakih as well as former Miss America Vanessa Williams.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 16:01:55 leigh204

@Image:

leigh204 – Your mother is absolutely right–there is something wrong with them. You have very pretty facial features, including your eyes. Funny people call them that, “Asian” eyes because I’ve seen quite a few black people with “Asian” eyes and many with no known Asian ancestry.

Thank you for your kind words.

Yes, we all want to “fit” in but why does my or her or anyone’s fitting in often come down to people wanting to look more white, and white people are not even the majority in this world, not even close. That is what’s so disturbing to me; it doesn’t even logically make sense.

You’re absolutely correct. It doesn’t make sense at all. I also recall my mother telling me, “Even if I allowed you to have the surgery done, would your new eyes make you a better person? More special? Why would you want eyes just like the kids who made fun of you?”
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 16:03:28 J

Its been a long while, but is this not a tautology??

I wouldn’t say that the dominant beauty standard in the world is “the WHITEr the better = It’s a bit more loose than that, rather, what is widely regarded as attractive in women are CAUCASIODAL facial features

No but seriously, there is an overlap between White and Caucasoid
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 16:07:59 Color O'Luv

@ Natasha
You said: “Whites often want to look “different/exotic” and that involves desiring features that are more common amongst other groups of people.”

I would agree with you. The saying, “Tall, Dark & Handsome” comes to mind. In addition, I find very few people who think ‘pasty’ white is attractive. Look at the tanning industry. Think about how many women spend their money on artifical UV rays. Are they not happy with their natural skin tone? All the White girls in High School going to the tanning salons before prom, for example…

I would even go so far as to say that in the U.S, if you’re just a plain White guy, then you’re not cool. White is not right. I’ve said this before in other threads, but I have often times heard many people associate “White” with negative connotation; therefore you get the response: I’m not White, I’m Brazilian, I’m not White, I’m Puerto Rican, etc…
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 16:08:43 J

With regard to:

“Yet no one pegs this as self-hate [by Whites]“.

This is because it is not, they have out of their own free-will and choice taken to see aspect of other ‘races’ beauty.

POC do not do this, it is not a conscious act of ‘choice’ but rather they are told by a variety of sources they are ‘ugly’ etc.
Then they act from this ‘premise’, which Whites do not.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 16:18:33 Image

“I wouldn’t say that the dominant beauty standard in the world is “the whiter the better.” It’s a bit more loose than that. Rather, what is widely regarded as attractive in women are caucasoidal facial features (not necessarily including thin lips) and non-dark skin.”

There really is no such thing a caucasiodal facial features. There are many black African people who have these features with no “Caucasian” blood in them.

Do you really think because a black person who has dark skin and what you call ” caucasiodal” features would be deemed equally as attractive or more so as someone white?

“There are quite a few non-white women who fit this description, such as the current copper-toned Arab Miss USA Rima Fakih as well as former Miss America Vanessa Williams.”

..and how many Rima Fakih’s or Vanessa Williams types have we seen as Miss America? …and vanessa is mixed with blue eyes, does that really count?
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 16:20:28 Natasha W

J,

“This is because it is not, they have out of their own free-will and choice taken to see aspect of other ‘races’ beauty.

POC do not do this, it is not a conscious act of ‘choice’ but rather they are told by a variety of sources they are ‘ugly’ etc.”

I don’t think it’s a conscious act. When beauty paradigms shift, people’s judgments of themselves shift accordingly.

Also, I would disagree that they are not told they are ugly (directly, I mean; white women see that they aren’t as “beautiful” nowadays as compared to the “exotics”). My SO’s sister is very pale, with golden blonde hair. She was teased by classmates and family members alike who said that she looked “sickly” and “transparent.” Although they would say it in a joking manner, it really got to her. Now she is [usually] a deep-tanned brunette.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 16:26:40 Image

Natasha- Yes, white people tan intentionally, and I guess that could be looked at as some form of self hate, but I don’t see it that way. White people can go outside to play beach ball and get a tan, like it or not, unless they use sun screen a lot. It’s something that would naturally happen anyway depending on the amount of sun exposure they get. However, a dark skinned person like Sosa would never naturally turn pasty white lol.

In terms of the lips injections, adding more plumpness to their behinds etc…I would say that could defiantly be self hate or at least trying to be something they are not.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 16:29:25 Image

FG: a part of my sentence/question is missing

Do you really think because a black person who has dark skin and what you call ” caucasiodal” features would be deemed equally as attractive or more so as someone white in a white dominanted society or non white, but non black one?
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 16:34:32 Natasha W

I really don’t know what is considered dark skin anymore. I’m confused. I thought all brown and dark brown people were considered dark-skinned.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 16:40:32 Color O'Luv

@ Image…

As for self hate and tanning, I bet it is subconcious and probably something that many people are self-concious about. I know White people who simply cannot tan and often times they are envious of those who can.

In contrast, I was out on the beach with the wife this weekend. She is using 50 spf because she doesn’t want to get any “darker” – which came as a surprise to me. In Brazil, I never heard anybody say this. All my friends in Brazil are equal opportunity beach lovers. All the Black Surfers in Bahia certainly aren’t worried about getting any darker. I’ve never heard this from a Brazilian before. (Thad, B.R.????)

I told my wife she needed to “chill”. I’m going to have to talk to her more about this because I’m wondering if this isn’t something she picked up in the U.S. or down here in Miami.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 16:47:17 leigh204

@Color O’Luv:

In contrast, I was out on the beach with the wife this weekend. She is using 50 spf because she doesn’t want to get any “darker” – which came as a surprise to me. In Brazil, I never heard anybody say this.

Well, there are many tanned/darker people in my family and they use SPF 50 primarily because they don’t want skin cancer.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 16:49:00 Mira

Image, I don’t think it’s just everyone else wanting to be white. Whites often want to look “different/exotic” and that involves desiring features that are more common amongst other groups of people.

This. But it’s a completely different matter. Whites do want to be “exotic” and whites don’t want to be pale.

I bet many whites would want to be a bit more exotic. (Claiming great great grandmother was Native is one of those things). They, also, secretly envy (maybe envy is a strong word, but you know what I mean) black people’s hair, skin tone, full lips, hips etc.

Hey, I know while I was growing up, I hated my pale skin and I wanted to be more “special/exotic” (whatever that meant to me back then).

But still, there’s a difference. There’s a difference in power, I think. It’s not about the looks alone, and maybe it’s not even about the looks. First of all, most of the teenagers and many women are not happy with the way they look. Men want to be taller, women want to be thinner or whatever. But to look whiter, it’s not really to look whither; it’s about being equal and subconsciously or consciously believing that white is neutral and the norm.

White women wanting to have darker skin and thick figures don’t want that; they want to be “different” and “special” or maybe they buy into stereotypes about non-white women as being more passionate, sexier, stronger or whatever.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 16:52:10 Color O'Luv

@ Leigh,

I completely understand. I was just talking about the comment my wife made. When I heard it, it caught me off guard. Now I’m thinking about it again and trying to understand her thought process. The more I think about it, the more I’m thinking this is something she picked up while here in the U.S.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 16:54:15 Image

Color of Luv… I agree that it’s something that a lot of them are self conscious about but because they can get that naturally, I don’t necessarily see it has self hate as opposed to bleaching.

I do think there is a certain “acceptable” dark color, CoL; your wife wants a tan but she doesn’t want to be “too” tan or dark…which brings me to Tasha’s comment….

Natasha, dark/brown skin can subjective–based on how one person views it; it also depends on where you are in the world too.

I think it many peoples minds…being dark skinned and part of the “black” race is different from being dark skinned and not being classified as part of the “black” race and I think that also shapes how subjective this dark/brown skin color issue can be.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 16:55:11 Mira

As for self hate and tanning, I bet it is subconcious and probably something that many people are self-concious about. I know White people who simply cannot tan and often times they are envious of those who can.

I can’t tan. At all. I could when I was a kid, I could get pretty dark, like my dad could, but not after the puberty. I have no idea what changed. I am very light skinned (read: transparent), with some freckles. I can not tan, and I hated that when I was growing up. All the girls around me could get this rich olive colour and I couldn’t. Especially in my culture, where tanning is a MUST (even in winter- hence all those tanning salons). To be cheese white (read: pale) is considered extremely ugly. Some girls even proudly say they went to a tanning salon and now they are dark like black women (which is not healthy- these things, tanning salons are not healthy).

So I just learned to accept myself as pale, because I can’t tan anyway and I don’t want to get into a health risk.

I don’t know if this is self-hate, I honestly don’t know. I have a skin of my Polish side of the family, and it’s generally lighter than usual Serbian skin tone, so maybe I just wanted to fit in, or I went with the belief that pale skin is ugly. Not sure.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 17:00:03 Natasha W

I basically agree with you Mira, on the difference of power.

leigh,

“Well, there are many tanned/darker people in my family and they use SPF 50 primarily because they don’t want skin cancer.”

I am beginning to wear sunblock for this reason alone, because I am now in a region where it is always sunny. Skin cancer is a reality even for darker people.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 17:02:52 leigh204

@Mira:

Your pale skin is not ugly by any means just as dark skin is not ugly either. Why can’t we just accept our skin the way it is without resorting to some artificial way to alter it? You know….some dark skinned people using skin lighteners or some pale skinned people tanning. We’re never happy with what we’re given.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 17:08:30 Color O'Luv

@ Mira –

I’m a big proponent of self pride no matter what. I think most people probably go through life ‘wanting’ to change something about themselves – regardless of race. This can be many things.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 17:11:30 leigh204

@Natasha W:

leigh,

“Well, there are many tanned/darker people in my family and they use SPF 50 primarily because they don’t want skin cancer.”

I am beginning to wear sunblock for this reason alone, because I am now in a region where it is always sunny. Skin cancer is a reality even for darker people.

Definitely! I work in an environment where it’s predominantly white, and you wouldn’t believe the comments I get when I slather on sunscreen to my skin…it’s medium-beige toned. They say, “Why do you bother applying sunscreen? You’re extra melanin helps protect you a bit.” I responded, “What?! And risk getting skin cancer? No thank you!” It boggles my mind.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 17:13:08 Natasha W

Image,

“Natasha, dark/brown skin can subjective–based on how one person views it; it also depends on where you are in the world too.”

I do think it is highly subjective. This woman who was interested in dating my brother (for whatever reason), inquired about his looks and I described him as “dark-skinned.” When she met him, she said “Oh, he’s not dark-skinned. He’s brown.” I was confused because I’ve always used the terms brown-skinned and dark-skinned interchangeably. After all, if brown and dark brown people are not dark, who is? My brother is this color:

http://forum.sfreader.com/attach.aspx/197/gabrielle-union%5B1%5D.jpg

“I think it many peoples minds…being dark skinned and part of the “black” race is different from being dark skinned and not being classified as part of the “black” race and I think that also shapes how subjective this dark/brown skin color issue can be.”

I’d agree with that, and I think it extends to other features commonly found on blacks as well.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 17:47:02 Image

Natasha-Yeah, I would say Gabriel is dark skin too, but then someone else may say something different, lol I call it various shades of brown.

I remember going to Ocho Rios, JA a few years back and there were people trying to sell souvenir because they get most of their business from tourist.

Anyway, there was this one woman there that I will never forget. Her skin was so gorgeous and like nothing I had ever seen. It was an extremely deep, dark brown, very smooth and even, no make up, nothing; even her face I don’t remember, I caught myself staring.

When I got back to the states, I saw another lady in Brooklyn who reminded me of her with a similar color. I don’t even think the “anti-dark skin people” could deny her beauty.

I just think people of color from the deepest brown to the lightest are so beautiful by design in ways even I don’t fully understand. I guess Sosa thinks otherwise.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 18:30:56 islandgirl

Color of Luv,

I was guilty of doing what your wife does when I was in high school at dance camp. But the thing is, I’ve always been comfortable in my blackness and didn’t mind getting darker. But I now realize that I did it because the other black girls did. I didn’t even think about it.

Everyone needs protection from the sun, but darker people should only need a spf 15 because it’s been said that we have a built in spf of 15 or higher.

Mira,

Good for you for being proud of your pale complexion and not conforming by tanning. Staying out of the sun is probably why you look so young.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 18:50:55 FG

“I really don’t know what is considered dark skin anymore. I’m confused. I thought all brown and dark brown people were considered dark-skinned.”

Vanessa Williams is not dark-skinned by global standards, or increasingly by American standards. Keep in mind what Thad said about the differences between the US and Brazil. Americans talk as if people like her are dark (“black”) but in actual practice take their lightness into account.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 18:52:32 FG

“Do you really think because a black person who has dark skin and what you call ” caucasiodal” features would be deemed equally as attractive or more so as someone white in a white dominanted society or non white, but non black one?”

Absolutely. Vanessa Williams beat out alot of white contestants to win Miss America, and that was way back in the mid-80s.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 18:57:12 Natasha W

“Vanessa Williams is not dark-skinned by global standards, or increasingly by American standards. Keep in mind what Thad said about the differences between the US and Brazil. Americans talk as if people like her are dark (“black”) but in actual practice take their lightness into account.”

…Ummm, yeah. I wasn’t considering Vanessa as “dark-skinned” when I made that comment; that was more of a general questioning. I don’t think she is seen as dark-skinned by majority of people.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 19:04:39 Thaddeus

The problem is, if the “beauty standard” you promote is inacessible to 99.9% of the female population, you’re not promoting “non-white” beauty: you are effectively promoting NON-HUMAN beauty.

A Martian with black skin is still a Martian.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 19:09:29 leigh204

@islandgirl:

Mira,

Good for you for being proud of your pale complexion and not conforming by tanning. Staying out of the sun is probably why you look so young.

Yes, Mira looks quite youthful. One of my friends is around Mira’s age…late 20′s…and when I first met her, I thought she was a decade older. Imagine my surprise when she revealed her true age. She tanned a lot during her teen years. And she still tans in those tanning beds despite the risks associated with tanning. I can see the effects on her skin – a crepe-y texture. Think leather. Not a good look at all.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 19:15:59 Natasha W

Image says:

“Do you really think because a black person who has dark skin and what you call ” caucasiodal” features would be deemed equally as attractive or more so as someone white in a white dominanted society or non white, but non black one?”

FG says:

“Absolutely. Vanessa Williams beat out alot of white contestants to win Miss America, and that was way back in the mid-80s.”

That’s all well and good, but when did Vanessa Williams become a “black person who has dark skin”? Without bronzer or tan, her complexion isn’t too far away from most whites’.

I also don’t think she has “Caucasoidal” features, at least not in the ’80s she didn’t:

http://www.frenchcreoles.com/262684~Vanessa-Williams-Posters.jpg
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 19:25:37 leigh204

@Natasha W:

Here’s another pic of Vanessa Williams when she was Miss America.

http://www.lessignets.com/signetsdiane/calendrier/images/juillet/23/williams50.jpg
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 19:46:58 FG

@Natasha,

If I didn’t know that was Vanessa Williams, I’d probably assume it was a picture of a white girl.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 19:54:00 Natasha W

^I don’t think she looks white in either picture (and I don’t think you really do either, considering how you parse appearances) because her features are more common amongst black people. Her skin being lighter doesn’t make her white. But you, intentionally I think, missed the point that she would not be considered a “black person who has dark skin” nor would she be seen as having Caucasoidal features (minus blue eyes) back in the ’80s.

Thanks, leigh.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 20:04:35 Herneith

A Martian with black skin is still a Martian.

“Legend suggests that the Black Martians are inhabitants of one of the moons of Mars, when in fact they live in an underground stronghold near the south pole of the planet, around the subterranean Sea of Omean, below the Lost Sea of Korus, where they keep a large aerial navy. They call themselves the ‘First Born’, believing themselves to be a unique creation among Martian races, and worship Issus, a woman who styles herself as the God of the Martian religion, but is no such thing. They frequently raid the White Martian Therns, who maintain the false Martian religion, carrying off people as slaves. John Carter defeats their navy in The Gods of Mars.[42]”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barsoom#Appeal

You may be on to something Thad!
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 20:20:16 Image

Thad-
“A Martian with black skin is still a Martian.”
I hear you, and that’s what it should be.
What does that mean in this world?

A black human is still a human too….but still we find some value displaced, rearranged, and thrown away.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 20:21:34 Image

Lol Herneith
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 20:27:55 Jasmin

I use a high SPF because I’m terrified of getting skin cancer and have never been sunburned (plus I’m anal ), but it’s hard for me to “tan” (as in get darker) anyway, since the sun makes my skin red.

I’m down here in Orange County for the first time visiting my boyfriend’s family, and he’s educating me about the world of tanning. We were in LA visiting my uncle on Wednesday, and we saw this poor girl who must have fried in a tanning bed. She was this unnatural brown color that reminded me of meatloaf.

It’s hard for me personally to find skin color on it’s own attractive. I know some people who have darker skin that looks great when they’re wearing bright colors, and others with lighter skin that glows next to darker hair, etc. but if I saw them naked I don’t think I’d marvel at their skin color.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 20:32:52 Image

Another good example would be Rihanna, I know a lot of white people who think she is very attractive and she doesn’t have what people keep calling “Caucasoidal” features at all.

Like VW, she’s really light skin with different color eyes: green/hazel.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 20:46:15 Natasha W

^I really think the terms “Caucasoid/Mongloid/etc” are misleading as there are no features that are found within “races” that aren’t found in others, nor are features set for a given population. And those sort of terms make it seem as if race is a biological reality with clear boundaries, instead of the vague, man-made creation it is.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 20:52:44 Image

Exactly Natasha; I hope abagond does a post on this or at least some people take the time and educate themselves about it.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 21:14:45 J

With regard to:

“So I just learned to accept myself as pale, because I can’t tan anyway and I don’t want to get into a health risk.

I don’t know if this is self-hate, I honestly don’t know”

Personally I think you can dislike a feature as an individual and which pertains to a particular race, but NOT hate your race per se, because there has not been made a connection between the White feature and ‘race’.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 21:17:31 J

With regard to:

“I really think the terms “Caucasoid/Mongloid/etc” are misleading as there are no features that are found within “races” that aren’t found in others, nor are features set for a given population…”

What you say here is correct. However, people have created ‘stereotypes’ of what is meant to be of a certain race and operate with that on a daily basis
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 21:27:25 Mira

@Thad

The problem is, if the “beauty standard” you promote is inacessible to 99.9% of the female population, you’re not promoting “non-white” beauty: you are effectively promoting NON-HUMAN beauty.

It’s irrelevant, Thad, as long as some humans identify with it.

We can argue if an overweight black woman should identify with a thin black woman or an overweight white woman- but like I’m sure you know, it’s not a relevant question, because identities are never objective.

@islandgirl

Mira,

Good for you for being proud of your pale complexion and not conforming by tanning. Staying out of the sun is probably why you look so young.

Thanks! But I must say I am not “proud” of my complexion in a way I think it’s good; I am just used to it. It’s me, after all.

Now, while I don’t dislike myself, I must admit that I might be a colourist of some sorts; for example, I never found pale skinned men attractive, or blond men. Or blue eyed men! Unless we’re talking about these blue eyes.

http://tinyurl.com/3734n6q

Um. Anyway, tanning salons are really, really unhealthy. The colour you get is unnatural, just like colour you get with a hair dye is unnatural.

@Natasha W

I really think the terms “Caucasoid/Mongloid/etc” are misleading as there are no features that are found within “races” that aren’t found in others, nor are features set for a given population. And those sort of terms make it seem as if race is a biological reality with clear boundaries, instead of the vague, man-made creation it is.

I agree. It’s really misleading, but what to do? I’d love to see more non-white beauty promoted as wonderful, but the problem is, what IS non-white beauty? Maybe I should say I’d like to see more non-white celebrities who are not picked because of their Caucasoid features… But then we get to biology again, so it’s impossible to determine.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 21:30:57 Mira

@J

Personally I think you can dislike a feature as an individual and which pertains to a particular race, but NOT hate your race per se, because there has not been made a connection between the White feature and ‘race’.

Well, there’s a question what self-hate really means in this context: hating yourself or your race? Also, if you “hate” (to use this term) some of your features that are often seen as unique to your race, does that mean you hate your race, yourself, or none of that?
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 21:39:10 Herneith

For those of you thinking of using SPF 15 and up, I’d say do so! Here’s food for thought:

http://www.skinandaging.com/article/2547
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 21:49:59 J

Self-hate I would say is that it drives an individual to want to ‘leave’ their race ie People of Colour trying to scrub their skin White, and other such similar behaviour.

Finally I ought to have qualified my position earlier and say that I do believe that there are some aspect of White people behaviour that can fall under self-hate or any other ter/adjective ‘body dysmorphism’.

However, having the dominant culture this somehow minimises any negative effects, if this makes any sense.
on Mon 24 May 2010 at 22:36:54 leigh204

@Herneith:

For those of you thinking of using SPF 15 and up, I’d say do so! Here’s food for thought:

http://www.skinandaging.com/article/2547

Girl, those pictures are straight up nasty! That’s why it’s very important to protect your skin.
on Tue 25 May 2010 at 16:58:52 Natasha W

Mira,

“Now, while I don’t dislike myself, I must admit that I might be a colourist of some sorts; for example, I never found pale skinned men attractive, or blond men. Or blue eyed men!”

Lol. I guess you wouldn’t find my SO attractive then.

“Unless we’re talking about these blue eyes.

http://tinyurl.com/3734n6q “

Who is this yummy man?

J,

“What you say here is correct. However, people have created ‘stereotypes’ of what is meant to be of a certain race and operate with that on a daily basis”

Yes. And that’s a big problem. That’s where you get ill-informed comments like “acting white” or “looking African.”
on Thu 27 May 2010 at 18:18:50 Mira

That is Eddie Vedder, “Pearl Jam” frontman (but the pic in question is interesting. because he’s not in his usual messy self )

I agree about protecting your skin: blacks have a much better protection than whites, but it’s obviously not enough anymore. Maybe in the past, but the sun is so strong today, everybody needs a protection.
on Sun 30 May 2010 at 15:54:25 leigh204

I love being who I am, but it saddens and disgusts me that the colonial mentality has brainwashed so many POC.

Here’s a skin whitening ad from the Philippines.
on Sun 30 May 2010 at 15:59:14 leigh204

Don’t want a flat nose. Here’s a nose clamp for you.

http://www.popgadget.net/images/coco_noseclamp.jpg

What about a nose roller?

http://cosmetic-candy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/BIBANA-ROLLER-Nose-Shape-on-eBay-end-time-18-Sep-09-10_42_48-BST-1.jpg
on Sun 30 May 2010 at 16:29:52 Herneith

Do those things actually work? If not, it would give credence to that old saying; “There’s a sucker born every minute!
on Sun 30 May 2010 at 16:40:18 leigh204

@Herneith:

I honestly don’t know. I guess some people swear by it. Btw, what is wrong with having the nose the man upstairs gave you? My mom told me that when she was pregnant with me, folks kept telling her to pinch my nose so that it wouldn’t be flat.
on Sun 30 May 2010 at 16:42:58 MerriMay

SMDH…So sad..esp if that is a nationally run ad on primetime…wow
on Sun 30 May 2010 at 17:13:28 Herneith

Btw, what is wrong with having the nose the man upstairs gave you?

Nothing. What is wrong is the length people will go to, to alter their appearance in order to conform to a colonialist and racist ideal. Self-loathing at its’ best! Those contraptions look bizarre to say the least as well as tortuous when applied. What will they come up with next? A nose stretcher? Those contraptions would be satirical if not for the fact that they are promoted in all seriousness!! I wonder if any comedian have used these on their acts.
on Sun 30 May 2010 at 17:48:23 leigh204

@Herneith:

Those contraptions look bizarre to say the least as well as tortuous when applied. What will they come up with next? A nose stretcher?

The closest thing would be nose inserts.

http://nonsurgical-nosejob.com/NoseSecretBeforeAfter.jpg

And here’s a device you wear over your nose. Silly, if you ask me.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_hJcNOSS7ECc/R2XnmDy1aJI/AAAAAAAAAEk/n6NPJmW4TlU/s320/NoseUp.jpg
on Sun 30 May 2010 at 18:00:53 Thaddeus

Btw, what is wrong with having the nose the man upstairs gave you?

Because it’s turning green and is beginning to smell funny.

He gave me some ears, too.

I dunno… Do you think I should call the cops?
on Sun 30 May 2010 at 18:25:14 leigh204

@MerriMay:

SMDH…So sad..esp if that is a nationally run ad on primetime…wow

Yes, it’s very sad. I really loathe the slogan:

“Be Desired. Be White. Be Firm.”

Pppffft. That’s just fcuked up.
on Sat 5 Jun 2010 at 19:40:43 Robin

True, I grew up in a mainly all-black private school with very strong afrocentric values. I was told that I was ugly because of my skin color and lips. My skin color is a meduim brownish red and my lips are almost black.They used to pull at my hair and tell that I should dye my hair. People will always find ways to make themselves feel better. Just being around your own “kind” doesn’t solve anything.
on Sat 5 Jun 2010 at 20:11:23 leigh204

@ Robin:

I am very sorry you were subjected to that sort of treatment. It’s really sad that some people can be so intentionally hurtful (physically/verbally) to others through no fault of their own.
on Sun 6 Jun 2010 at 03:53:17 Brownsouthgirl

When I was on the dance line in High School, 4 of the 24 dancers were black. A white dancer suggested that we get lighter tights to blend in with the white legs. Many African-American girls at my school bleached their faces to appear lighter. I thought bleaching yourself made you fake and you must have self hate to do something so simple minded!
on Tue 15 Jun 2010 at 18:59:17 Robin

Leigh204: I think it’s people nature to dislike something that’s different. I think all groups of people are guilty of this. This is why I believe Afrocentrics and neo-nazis are equally stupid and have very flaw views. Hatred and unjustice just don’t magically go away by people just sticking with who vaguely come from the same continent.
on Sun 12 Sep 2010 at 00:47:49 brentano

the term “internalized racism” is one I’ve picked up recently and that is what led me to click on a link that led me here.

My awareness of this began with reading what Malcolm X said about blacks being taught to hate themselves …. everything about themselves ….. !

I think many do hold a lot of prejudice against the black condition and against other blacks which comes out in different ways in different individuals.

Some become so angry that they could almost be called “self-hating” !

I think this prejudice & jealousy weaken our ability to work together and is a major behind the scenes reason for some of our issues.
on Tue 1 Mar 2011 at 19:09:49 City of Houston

This really hits home. As a person of color growing up in New York, you were considered either dark skinned or light skinned. Dark skinned children were constantly teased. Light skinned blacks were “preferred” over their darker counterparts. Being dark skinned myself, I never really appreciated my complexion until it came “into style” and was the new thing. It took me a while to be proud of my skin.
on Tue 1 Mar 2011 at 22:16:09 sepultura13

I definitely suffered from internalized racism in my younger years. I definitely had the “If I was white, things would be better” and “If I were lighter-skinned and acted ‘less black’ (sheer self-hatred!) I’d have an easier time of things” tapes playing in my mind! Now, I just shake my head when I hear others say the same things – their self-hatred should be their own business, but they seem to want/need validation of their own phucked-up ideals, just like I used to.

Either they’ll grow up, stop drinking the Kool-Aid and embrace their individuality, or they’ll keep on keepin’ on in blissful ignorance…and, there are at least 5 regular commentors on this board that resemble that statement!
on Thu 10 Mar 2011 at 13:57:08 Watchful

Well, sepultura13….

Instead of shaking your head and pitying these people from you up on high pedestal, why don’t you help them to realize the error of their ways, the way you realized? Not everyone is aware they’re drinking Kool-Aid!

Oy. Instead of help, we offer insults. Now that’s characteristic of a HUMAN BEING….regardless of colour!
on Thu 10 Mar 2011 at 17:36:19 sepultura13

Watchful sez:
“Instead of shaking your head and pitying these people from you up on high pedestal, why don’t you help them to realize the error of their ways, the way you realized? Not everyone is aware they’re drinking Kool-Aid!”

Thank you so much for elevating me to a pedestal! I acknowledge your plebian existence; I’m certain that you are elated to be recognized by regal nobility.

*turns off sarcasm*

@watchful:
I did not speak with pity – you read that in my words. If you don’t like the message, don’t kill the messenger!

I offer help to those who ask. Period. Magnanimity and charity are vastly over-rated, IMHO…

Yeah, look it up – I know you’re lost already.
on Fri 8 Jul 2011 at 17:34:33 Sandrine

I sadly think that internalized racism cant be overcome
on Fri 15 Jul 2011 at 21:25:53 Biweekly Tweetchat: Self-doubt {July 18} | Multicultural Familia™

[...] this week’s Tweetchat we’ll be talking about “internalized racism” or self-doubt and even self-hatred that comes from being dominated by a society that makes [...]
on Tue 25 Oct 2011 at 21:19:42 V-4

Are asian men who act “ghetto” doing so as a form of self-hate?

Maybe, there is that stereotype about asians not being all that manly whereas black men are basically the exact opposite of that, arguably their stereotype is one of excessive manliness.

So out of self-hate they might be trying to act like the ultimate male figure type black men and rejecting their own asian culture due to not liking themselves.

As to whether its self-hate or not for women to want to change their features, it may not be race based but its still self-hate.
on Thu 5 Jan 2012 at 01:47:22 Bunny

I get so much shit for acting too white from other black people…I am black and Mexican. My black father was never in my life and I have had a white stepdad since I was seven. Both of my patents are very liberal middle class whole foods patrons types and my mom taught me from a young age to be proud of my Mexican and black heritage and to learn about the history of my race. I understood from an early age that most people are still horribly racist. I was sent to private school where there were few black students so I unfortunately never had too many close black friends but the white friends I kept possessed none of the subtly racist qualities described on this blog( though I have seen more than my fair share of it in most other whites) It has always angered and confused me when I get teased and bullied by other black girls (who straighten their hair, get weaves, lighten their skin, talk about “good hair”, and speak racistly and ignorantly about Asians, whites, other blacks and Mexicans )who tell me that I am “too white”, that I am stuck up because of my light skin and that I “talk white” and that I’m not really a ” true nigga”. So yeah. I don’t have a problem with who I am racially speaking nor do I feel like I am better or worse than anybody because of my skin color. I am such a uniquely strange person both personality wise and physically that I rarely identify with others based on race. Whites aren’t the only ones guilty of racism. I’ve sadly been hurt much more by the racism of blacks in my life than whites. Of course the white forms of racism I’ve experienced are much more subtle and hidden but less affecting nonetheless. I wish people would cut us biracial kids some slack. I think that me being who I am with the experiences that have shaped me, have no choice but to acknowledge all perspectives from all races.
on Fri 20 Jul 2012 at 01:16:12 Anomymous

This world is so hypocritical. Who would most men wants to date, the original Chinese lady, or her post-surgery self. All cultures promote a certain ideal of beauty and women spend most of their lives living up to them. I mean all cultures.

Women are also responsible for how they force certain standard of beauty on other women.
on Fri 20 Jul 2012 at 01:44:05 leigh204

@ Anomymous:

This world is so hypocritical. Who would most men wants to date, the original Chinese lady, or her post-surgery self. All cultures promote a certain ideal of beauty and women spend most of their lives living up to them. I mean all cultures.

What Chinese lady are you referring to? Did I miss something? *scratches head*
on Fri 20 Jul 2012 at 01:51:56 Herneith

Who would most men wants to date, the original Chinese lady, or her post-surgery self.

The ones who can cook the best. A way to a man’s heart is through his stomach after all! He won’t give a hoot as to looks if a woman can throw down in the kitchen!

All cultures promote a certain ideal of beauty and women spend most of their lives living up to them. I mean all cultures.

If most of the women who felt this way would just take cookery classes, they could have any man they wanted!

Women are also responsible for how they force certain standard of beauty on other women.

Maybe so, but who is responsible for your stupidity? That’s the million dollar question, also, why are you here?
on Fri 20 Jul 2012 at 02:20:31 leigh204

@ Herneith:

You crack me up, my T-dot O-dot canuck!

Btw, I’m certain Anomymous meant this Asian woman. Btw, she’s not Chinese. She’s Korean.

http://i49.tinypic.com/ztydyg.jpg
on Fri 20 Jul 2012 at 03:35:10 Melody (aka Dee)

I really hope my little brother doesn’t turn out this way, since he’ll be spending a lot of his childhood in America. When I have kids I wouldn’t want them to spend all their childhood in America, either. Growing up in multiple countries has it’s challenges, but it’s totally worth it. The idea of living in one area all my life just makes me cringe
on Mon 15 Oct 2012 at 03:13:28 Jefe

It can lead to shame, anger, confusion, self-hatred and self-doubt. Studies have shown that black Americans with high degrees of internalized racism are more likely to be violent, get fat, get diabetes, get high blood pressure and have unhappy marriages.

I suspected my whole life that my father’s domestic violence, being overweight, high blood pressure, bitter divorce and early death were related to his internalized racism together with my mother’s white privilege mindset. I think he started to change a bit (partly because of my influence after I got past my teens) but by then it was too late to save his health.
My mother carried her white privilege mindset to her grave. :-\
on Mon 15 Oct 2012 at 08:59:32 Bulanik

….It is only white people and narrow-minded, brainwashed people of colour who want you to believe otherwise. Who want to make you think your eyes or nose or hair or lips or skin colour are no good, that there is something wrong with them. Who laugh at your interests and things you want to do because they do not “fit” your race and sex. Who think there is something wrong with you for just being you.

What kind of people think there is something wrong with you for being you?

{Ping! silent, little explosion goes off in cerebral cortex…)
Yet the writer of this post believes it is a character flaw if a multi-racial brown- or black-skinned person of multi-racial parents says what they are!

***********************************************************************************************

Abagond. You really, really need to reflect on your own words and their meanings.
on Mon 15 Oct 2012 at 09:53:41 Jefe

How about if we change the wording
“It is only white people and narrow-minded, brainwashed people of colour who . . . ”
“It is only narrow-minded, brainwashed people, whether white or non-white, or even multiracial who . . . ”
then it might make sense.

But basically, the phenomenon, which occurs quite a bit throughout the blog, is just a reverse case of the “Roissy Syndrome”.

Now, I excuse and forgive people who do it sometimes. It may be due to a blindness in vision that is not perceived. But hopefully once the blind spot is pointed out, there will be some self-monitoring of this reverse Roissy Syndrome and acknowledgement when it occurs.
on Mon 15 Oct 2012 at 10:40:04 Bulanik

@ Jefe

I have looked up Roissy Syndrome, but there is nothing there.
Please could you provide a link, or let me know what this is?
on Mon 15 Oct 2012 at 11:44:06 Jefe

It refers to this blog post
(http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/11/11/the-roissy-syndrome/)
The idea is to state that the blogger is wrong while proving he is right by the very comments they are making.
In this case, it is the case of the blogger making a statement, and by trying to defend that statement he is stating another comment that indicates what he states is wrong.
I don’t know what to call that – there should be some name for it. But I do not think it is a character flaw. It is reading through some sort of lens that produces a blind spot. Maybe all that is needed is a trip to the optician.
on Mon 15 Oct 2012 at 12:56:50 Bulanik

@ Jefe, okay, I was thinking of Roissy the Paris suburb, and couldn’t figure it out…

I just read that link you posted of Abagond’s article about Roissy.
Let’s disregard the foolish content, Roissy wants to distract us with, and it’s immediately clear the point is to show that white readers read what they want to read and don’t read what they don’t want to read.

Abagond “borrows” the same technique. But, relies on internalized racism to do the rest… I suppose if mono-racial PoC suffer at the hands of white supremacy, then “othered” non-whites should suffer at the hands mono-racial PoC.
Follow your leader. Obey the drill. Keep the line. I sometimes forget how conformist US American culture is, and how derivative some of the “racial products” are.

I think that this kind of literary-political device (which is what is is), its purpose, is to agitate-in-perpetuity. I can’t remember the name for it, but it’s used in “grass roots”, politics ALL THE TIME. It’s translatable to a variety of mediums, and works okay for web traffic, too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agitprop

Curiously enough, I haven’t seen many subjects on this blog which deals specifically with that. I have only read a fraction of this blog, but there is one that does spring to mind, about BET, Black Entertainment Television (which I have never seen because of where I live and don’t have cable). It says this:

What about blogs? Because of the low barriers to entry, they can present a truer picture of blacks: blacks can write for themselves and say almost anything they want. But their audiences are small and even they can present only part of the picture: to blog you need a computer, Internet service and, most precious of all, the time to write regularly. That means most bloggers are middle-class.

So most of what Americans read, watch or listen to is either:

1. Produced by white men (that is why most heroes in films are white men even though only a third of America is white and male) or it
2. Appeals to white people.

http://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/12/27/the-bet-fallacy/
on Mon 15 Oct 2012 at 13:19:32 abagond

@ Bulanik

“Yet the writer of this post believes it is a character flaw if a multi-racial brown- or black-skinned person of multi-racial parents says what they are!”

Where did I say this?
on Mon 15 Oct 2012 at 13:34:30 abagond

@ Jefe

I changed that sentence to read:

” It is only narrow-minded, brainwashed people who want you to believe otherwise.”
on Mon 15 Oct 2012 at 15:05:07 Tyrone

Abagond:

(The Truth About Whiteness)

Whites don’t love whiteness per se, they love “White Priviledge.” Because of slavery and colonialism, whites have gained power and wealth on this planet at the expense of africans, american-indians, and asians as well. As black people, we’ve won the (Color War). Black skin is a notch above white skin, even most whites would admit this to be true. Why the continued conflict over skin color? Brainwashing blacks to hate their african ancestry is about power and control, first and foremost. Self-hating blacks are valuable to whites because they need our DNA. Whites need a certain percentage of blacks to mix with them on an ongoing basis for them to survive on this planet. Notice the fact that whites have gotten darker over time because of the rape of blackwomen and biracial unions. Black women and men who love themselves and their race would never allow whites to exploit them like that. Every action has a consequence, Every thought has a reason. White folk have a reason and purpose behind all of their bulls**t, black folk need to understand this. Again, it’s not about skin color, it’s about controlling the thoughts and actions of black people…Bottomline!

Tyrone
on Mon 15 Oct 2012 at 16:07:39 Tyrone

@Bunny

As black people, we need to move away from the PoC(People of Color) mindset that has dominated the convo for a long time, as it relates to how blacks interact with other coloreds so to speak. All blacks don’t get along with other PoC, all brown-skinned people don’t get along with black people. Each race interacts with the white power structure in their own way. Asians are classified as colored, but, white and yellow-complexioned asians hate on brown-skinned asians. White east-indians hate on brown-skinned indians, yet, neither of them gets along with black people. Mexicans are brown people, yet, they allow whites to dictate to them how they should identify themselves. Other groups of indians want blacks or mulattos to identify as Indian instead of black. Black people catch hell on both sides of the fence, this is the fundamental point that we as african people don’t wanna acknowledge. A lot of this is pushed by politicians, who could care less about the truth. Black people have been used by asians and native-americans to advance their own agendas at our expense, and we’re pissed off about it. Everybody wants to lump themselves in with black folk, but it’s only for superficial reasons. Others want the asthetics of blackness, but, lack sincere appreciation of black people and culture at the same time. As it relates to your biracial status, blacks who respect you will identify you as you are…Mixed-Race! Why are black people giving you a hard time? You’re black and mexican, you can’t change that. Society may see you as a blackwoman, but, that doesn’t apply to you. Those that pick on you are insecure black people, you need to tell them that Bunny? Half-Black means what it says, Half-A-Negro…Yes? Black folk want all mulattos to claim black membership, but, that has nothing to do with real black people. How can i force you to be black when you’re not? Whether you or other mulattos choose black is irrelevant to me…You’re Not Black! All the problems that we have to deal with, racial identity of mulattos is not high on my list of priorities…Bottomline!

Tyrone
on Mon 15 Oct 2012 at 16:22:26 Jefe

@abagond
re:
@ Bulanik

“Yet the writer of this post believes it is a character flaw if a multi-racial brown- or black-skinned person of multi-racial parents says what they are!”

Where did I say this?

Indeed, it was pointed out very directly to you many times. If you still didn’t receive it one would be at a loss at what to do. I don’t think a guest post or anything would help.

Do you understand what was meant by Bulanik’s words

I suppose if mono-racial PoC suffer at the hands of white supremacy, then “othered” non-whites should suffer at the hands mono-racial PoC.

I am trying to figure out at what point the message gets lost. Is it the word “suffer”?

I noticed that you have added disclaimers or changed wording as an attempt to placate your readers. I hope not. I think it might be good to do it when information might be wrong (as I suspected it was regarding the number of speakers of certain languages) but not when you are expressing opinions. If you change your opinions like that it will lessen the impact of blog’s messages – people will not know where you stand, esp. if you don’t explain why you do that.

As I mentioned in the past, I generally like this blog, agree with much of its content, and I think it is close to where I stand politically. But I would be much happier if you actually find and acknowledge where there may be blind spots, or if you have a “eureka” moment of new vision, not change wording or add or subtract content simply to placate.
on Mon 15 Oct 2012 at 17:00:50 B. R.

I think this blog has a lot of direction at white racism, and, “wrapping up in whiteness”, and “white privilige”. It deserves to be scrutinised, because so many white people dont want to acknowledge these very real atitudes that have serious ramifation on any society that brought slaves from Africa to the Americas, because you better beleive , its rolling down here in Brazil also, its not just an American thing.

Unfortunetly, some commenters, surly not all, this isnt one monolithic “black opinion”, are insensitive to bi racial people , or , at worst, throw bi racial people under the bus, because , the “white part”, in bi racial, “taints” the biracial person (of course many biracial people dont have black African descendant genes) in these discusions when the commentator implicates all white people…for better or worse..im not judging in this statement, just observing. The complex realities of a bi racial person are never going to be uncoverd in these type of discusions…and usualy get thrown into stereotypes and generealisations

To Abagond’s credit, he has admited to being raised in America and subject to thinking of racism on that leval and he has said that when he sais “white people”, he doesnt mean all white people…I think in general Abagond is fair, and Ive seen some things he said about judging people in bi racial relationships as he meets them but that he does have feelings in general that dont trust it….for sure I dont agree with that

I come in here as a white person, that doesnt mean I have to feel , like some people that all white people are bad, that Western civilsation is more evil than any other, maybe more systematic, that i cant talk about Arab racism, but, I always caveatte that with I think the North Atlantic slave trade was worse…

And, I do think bi racial people get shafted in general from some other commenters, and, a lot of bi racial people come in here and comment….I sympathise with them, of course, my son is bi racial

I can get to things about “wrapped up in whiteness”, I do see that is a flaw in society, I do see that whites invented racism and that slavery does carry over into today in anyplace that brought African slaves into the Americas
on Mon 15 Oct 2012 at 17:05:53 B. R.

…and of course, related to one statement I made, lots of bi racial people dont have white genes also, i just meant in the context of how a lot of bi racial people are implicated on here is that they have white genes
on Mon 15 Oct 2012 at 18:08:33 Bulanik

@ Abagond.

I said:

“Yet the writer of this post believes it is a character flaw if a multi-racial brown- or black-skinned person of multi-racial parents says what they are!”

Abagond asked:
Where did I say this?

Here, in the middle: http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/07/29/what-to-tell-your-children-about-racism/#comment-148386

I recall this comment went into moderation, so I think you saw it then too.
on Mon 15 Oct 2012 at 18:29:45 abagond

@ Bulanik

Thank you very much. I will reply to this later today.
on Mon 15 Oct 2012 at 18:31:55 Kwamla

It might help in discussions like these to think more carefully about the terms people are using. Terms such as: “Bi-racial”, “mono-racial” only make sense if there is indeed an agreed scientific consensus that people are, and can be divided into multiple races. But There isn’t !!!

(Note to B.R: There are NO identifiable white, Black or any other similar descriptive genes!)

Such thinking in terms like these perpetuates the notion of separate races which can be qualitatively measured and evaluated in terms of good, bad, inferior or superior. etc… How many posts in this blog have been written with commentators fervently trying to prove or disprove this?

Its probably more accurate to talk in terms of “ethnicity”. Internalized racism can take hold in anyone wanting to deny or accentuate a particular aspect of their ethnicity. And more often than not that aspect tends to be African derived.

@ Abagond

It would probably help in the first instance if you could try to be more consistent in your usage of this type of “race” terminology in posts. Then perhaps you wouldn’t be forced to make quick revisions later on!
on Mon 15 Oct 2012 at 18:31:56 Bulanik

@ abagond.

That is the first time you have ever said thank you to me.
on Mon 15 Oct 2012 at 20:44:25 B. R.

Kwamla, of course you are right, and that is the dichotomy, isnt it?

Its in the face of the “white” invented “racism” that we have to discuss these issues

I would like nothing more than a world where we really did not have to have these discusions, and, I can say until Im blue in the face “there is no race”, but the nature of these issues, banging against “racism”, it seems hard to escape

All these semantical terms are weak metaphorical abstact discriptions

But, someone can bang their head hard against the wall of racism out here , that seems to force us to think in these terms to comunicate the issues

Actualy “bi racial” doesnt describe my son well, he is 3 “races”, noting that is not a technicaly correct term, and many ethnicities
on Mon 15 Oct 2012 at 22:37:17 Bulanik

@ Jefe

I am trying to figure out at what point the message gets lost. Is it the word “suffer”?

Probably. I think empathy is optional here.^^

(And, I don’t think it’s about not caring about a white person’s “white” feelings in these discussions. It’s not always about them, inserting their feelings, after all, every time. Plus, not every multi-ethnic person has one,100%, white parent.)

Imo, when an oppressed group wants to marginalize a sub-group, it’s not due to “not caring”. I liken it more to squashing an irritant.
Why bother with a side-note issue, complicating things? That is easy to do with minorities — in the way that Abagond did not wish to address the existence or impact of the Chinese- and the Indian- (India) Jamaicans, in Jamaica, for example. Ignore ‘em, or pretend you have never heard of them in your life, and they’ll go away and fade to black, literally.
Contrast that to black-in-America — that’s different, real, more important.

It boils down to how we treat a minority: how we treat a minority within a minority.

Also, mixed-race people that have one white parent are taken more seriously. The other kinds of mixed-race and multi-ethnic people are nobodies in that pantheon. In many families, like my own, for example, the “white” part is but one element among others, and though obvious and visible, it never got a special spotlight. It simply wasn’t considered healthy to do that.

Marginalizing a set of people is a hurting process.
The request is “go away”, over and over.
Be silent. Don’t bring attention to yourself.
Self-definition is delusional and foolishness.
Face isolation and marginalization and rejection. Over and over.
After a lifetime, it’s possible a person doing the marginalizing — who are marginalized themselves — can become not only de-sensitized but blind, deaf and cold to people different to them who also call themselves differently.
on Mon 15 Oct 2012 at 23:04:51 Bulanik

@ Kwamla. Thank you, you are 100% spot on, of course.

A word like “mono-racial” the way that Jefe and I were using was qualified and explained at the start when we used it on the thread “What to ell your child about racism”, but we ended up using it as a shorthand on this thread.

It’s not accurate word and it’s not scientific one.
on Tue 16 Oct 2012 at 02:59:24 Jefe

Yeah, in
(http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/07/29/what-to-tell-your-children-about-racism/#comment-148138)
I said

But the guest topic would not be what you suggest, but probably would be either one of the following:
“What monoracial parents should tell their children about interacting with people in a multiracial society”
(The emphasis is on the monoracial parents, and by monoracial, I don’t mean necessary unmixed but those who identify as such. And the kids could be either monoracial or multiracial). “

Monoracial does not mean consisting of one single race, but a shorthand word to describe people who identify themselves socially and ethnically as assignable to a single category. In other words, it refers to people who do not define themselves as biracial or multiracial.

There has been considerable pressure both historically and in many different societies for multiracial people to identify as monoracial. For example, in Singapore, everyone has to carry an identity card that most clearly states what “race” you belong to. The general rule was to follow the race label of the father. But it created many situations where people didn’t identify with their race label, eg, a person labelled “Indian” but who was actually 1/2 Chinese and 1/4 Caucasian and less than 1/8 Indian and had no social identity with their race label. To change your official label was next to impossible. You had to prove that the government actually made a mistake, and placing you into a category you don’t identify with is not actually a mistake as long as they followed the rules.

But even Singapore changed this in 2010. It allows people to choose either the mother or father, or choose one “race” as their primary race and one as their secondary race or even choose mixed categories.

In Singapore, there is a racial category called “Eurasian”, applying to those who can trace their ancestry to some male European ancestor before Independence (even back to 19th century). They have their own social institutions and history and culture and form a separate “race”. However, since in the mid-late 20th century, few European people married into this group (since technically, it would have to be a white woman marrying a “Eurasian” man as someone would have had to been labelled as Eurasian before 1957 or earlier), each succeeding generation is actually more “Asian” than the prior one. Children who were born to a Caucasian parent and an Asian one (ie, Chinese, Indian, Malay, “Bugis”, or even Eurasian) would have to follow the racial categorization of the father. Now that it has changed (ie, a child born to a Caucasian parent and Asian parent) is now allowed to categorize themselves as either Caucasian, the relevant Asian category, as one primary race and one secondary race, or even as “Eurasian”. I have read that this has caused some of the members of the traditional Eurasian community to go up in arms. They feel that people who have never had any connection to the Eurasian community will now identify as such and threaten the integrity of their community and social institutions.

But USA is not really that different. You don’t have to carry an ID card to prove what you are, but you do have to carry a label. You are castigated if you do not wear your label as a full fledged citizen. Would an ID system of racial categorization help in the USA? At least it permits an element of self-identification. However, is one allowed to change this in the course of their life?
on Tue 16 Oct 2012 at 12:52:09 Bulanik

@ Jefe

I heard about that in Singapore, but did not understand the parallel, at the time. Thank you for that.

The parallel you draw with the US is revealing. Singapore always struck me as a quite a “controlled” place, and the Singaporeans that I spoke with at least, seemed to agree that it was quite strict about racial labeling, and the position of white people.

I noticed this especially regarding Eurasians. I remember speaking to someone who said that her Eurasian-ness was pre-determined by her European male ancestry, her female, Asian ancestry didn’t matter. It was this European name, being Dutch, Swedish, whatever, that made you Eurasian, and that was that. Not that being half-European made you as “good” as a European, but it made you “better” than an Asian. It reminds me a little of the Irish and the Italians and Jews when they came to the US: light/white skinned but not yet White by Anglo-white standards.

When the white Europeans started to come into Singapore, in bigger numbers and some being female rather than only male, that changed, because the white newcomers would stick with each other and shun the mixed-race “Eurasians”, whom them considered inferior and subordinate, too. It’s no surprise that the Eurasians formed their own communities. That pattern of rejection and creating an “intermediate” strata of society is a familiar one.

But they have survived. Whether the other ethnic groups in Singapore want them to exist or not was irrelevant.

Contrast this to the Indians in a place like Martinique, French Caribbean.
When I say “Indian”, I DO NOT refer to the mis-named “Indians” of South or North America, who are not of India, and are not Indians.
Most people know that, but perhaps that is part of erasure process of who the Indians really are in the Americas? I have brought up the existence of Indians, in the Caribbean and South America to Abagond, time and time again, for example. But he does not really “see” them, either. And he is far from alone, in that sense. If Indians are a people of no interest, then what is new about that?

The Indians brought to South America and the Caribbean to work the plantations of the French Caribbean were regarded as subhumans, both by the whites and by their brainwashed black slaves,– and their offspring, too. In the French Caribbean (and elsewhere), they were persecuted to the point of losing their religions, culture, language and customs. That alone, as a starting point, tells us much. The idea, on those island nations, was to have them die out. In every way. Or bred out, in the hope that their bloodline would disappear. I have sometimes heard this practice become an anecdotal “reference point” later, in the way that someone would say “Yeh, there’s even some Indian in my family, somewhere…”

That was one example of the deliberate and conscious policy of creating the “mono-racial”.
on Tue 16 Oct 2012 at 13:40:49 B. R.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indians_in_French_Guiana)

I just saw an in depth documentary here in Brazil about that aspect in Guiana or Guyana

from another wiki article:

“The largest ethnic group is the Indo-Guyanese (also known as East Indians), the descendants of indentured labourers from India, who make up 43.5% of the population, according to the 2002 census”
on Tue 16 Oct 2012 at 15:46:59 Bulanik

My neighbours were Indo-Guyanese!! Hahah. The ones at the back were Afro-Guyanese. What does the wiki article prove?
on Tue 16 Oct 2012 at 15:47:59 Bulanik

Even in Ireland we have Indo-Surinamese….
on Tue 16 Oct 2012 at 16:03:39 Bulanik

Don’t get wrong, it’s not that I believe Indians have never been heard of.
Nor is that there are no Indian communities that have survived in South Americas or the Caribbean islands.
That is not my point, or the wider issue that Jefe and I were discussing.
It is the process of marginalization. How it is done, and internalized.
on Tue 16 Oct 2012 at 17:01:34 abagond

@ Bulanik:

In answer to the character flaw thing:

http://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/10/15/of-mixed-race-identities/
on Tue 16 Oct 2012 at 17:06:00 abagond

@ Bulanik

“I have brought up the existence of Indians, in the Caribbean and South America to Abagond, time and time again, for example. But he does not really “see” them, either. And he is far from alone, in that sense. If Indians are a people of no interest, then what is new about that?”

You are presuming too much. I am well aware of Indo-Caribbeans. A friend of mine and godmother to my children is Indo-Guyanese.
on Tue 16 Oct 2012 at 17:27:42 Bulanik

Fair enough, Abagond, but please show me where I said “Abagond does not know” that Indo-Caribbean or more correctly, Indo-Guyanese, existed? before you tell me what I presume.

Did you read see what my comment above, at 16.03.39?

Don’t get wrong, it’s not that I believe Indians have never been heard of.
Nor is that there are no Indian communities that have survived in South Americas or the Caribbean islands.
That is not my point, or the wider issue that Jefe and I were discussing.
It is the process of marginalization. How it is done, and internalized.
on Tue 16 Oct 2012 at 17:47:29 Jefe

Thanks for putting it succinctly. The issue was how multiracialism is marginalized. This blog is no different.

I suppose however, multiracialism has always been marginalized. Either they fade into monoracialism or a new ethnic group is formed (eg, Eurasians in Singapore, or mestizo populations in other countries.)
on Tue 16 Oct 2012 at 17:51:39 Bulanik

If you understand it, Jefe, why can’t others?
Presumption my foot.
on Tue 16 Oct 2012 at 18:06:06 Jefe

That was one example of the deliberate and conscious policy of creating the “mono-racial”.

I think the same happened recently in Macau.

Macau was a Portuguese colony for almost 450 years. Early Portuguese settlers mixed with the local Chinese to form a distinctive Macanese population. There are small amounts of other things mixed in (eg, Dutch / Scottish or Asian Indian, etc.). Most have Portuguese surnames and spoke a Portuguese creole at home, and learned standard Portuguese in school. Most also speak Cantonese, and sometimes even Mandarin. Most are Catholic. After 10-15 generations in Macau they developed a distinctive culture that differed from both the Chinese and the European Portuguese.

But, since the 1999 return of sovereignty back to the PRC, that all changed. China granted Chinese nationality automatically to those who were ethnically Chinese. They did not recognize the cases where some held Portuguese nationality. (I supposed that some who were part Portuguese, but who had Chinese surnames could get Chinese nationality). Portuguese that were not part Chinese were refused Chinese nationality, even if they had been born and raised in Macau. Now the Macanese of mixed ancestry were forced to make a choice. They could choose either Portuguese nationality or Chinese nationality, but not both. They had to make a declaration which one they would choose. This is interesting, because ethnic Chinese were granted Chinese nationality automatically, and were not forced to give up their foreign passports if they had one.

Some Macanese stayed. Some migrated to other countries (eg, Portugal, Brazil, even the UK or United States or Australia). But in either case, the group, which formed in the first place due to marginalization will now be forced to fade into non-existence for reasons of marginalization as well. They will be gone in 2-3 more generations.
on Tue 16 Oct 2012 at 18:30:12 Bulanik

@ Jefe

I never knew that. When I had brief stay in Macau way back, I thought that that culture would survive.

Because of this I always considered Macanese (that I knew outside of Chinese territory) saw no conflict in their inheritance. John Rocha, the fashion designer, for example, simply states that he is part Chinese and part Chinese / Macanese — and that was simply his ESSENCE.

He is based in Dublin. I heard that when he first came to Ireland he was called “Chinese”, but I have noticed Mr Rocha countered this by simply and patiently explaining that although he was born in Hong Kong, he is what he is: part Chinese and part Portuguese.
on Tue 16 Oct 2012 at 18:40:38 Jefe

So much has been written about the death of Macanese culture.

Macau is a completely different place today than it was even in the 1990s. Macanese was a very poignant aspect of the society and culture. Today, not really. I think only vestiges of Macanese culture will survive for tourists, but as a system of social institutions and lifestyle, it will simply dissolve into the Chinese mainstream.

Of course, the ones overseas see less conflict in their inheritance. That is probably part of the reason why they left Macau in the first place (because they see the conflict if they stayed). They can maintain the sense of what they were by leaving.

I don’t know, maybe overseas enclaves will survive for a couple generations, but I can’t see them lasting long either without their institutions and social community.
on Tue 16 Oct 2012 at 21:53:12 Bulanik

@ Jefe, I had a look on the net about the death of Macanese culture, but as yet, not found anything substantial. Is there a link you could recommend about it?
on Wed 17 Oct 2012 at 06:08:16 Jefe

I don’t think DEATH per se, but dying.

I think I read about this more in print than on the net, but I can try to look for it. I remember looking into it after learning how Chinese Nationality laws applied to Macanese.

But, part of it also relates to actual trips to Macau over the past 20 years.
on Wed 17 Oct 2012 at 06:27:32 Jefe

Looking
A book published in 1999 at the time of change of sovereignty (Macau: A Cultural Janus By Christina Miu Bing Cheng) talked about the historical legacy of the Macanese culture, but is not updated for the current situation
http://books.google.com.hk/books?isbn=9622094864

I have also watched documentaries about them aired in Hong Kong.

I think the fact that most of them emigrated already indicates that they felt more comfortable leaving, rather than staying.

Still looking
on Wed 17 Oct 2012 at 09:00:02 Bulanik

@ Abagond
@ Jefe

I said this upthread:

“I have brought up the existence of Indians, in the Caribbean and South America to Abagond, time and time again, for example. But he does not really “see” them, either. And he is far from alone, in that sense. If Indians are a people of no interest, then what is new about that?”

In reply, Abagond said:

You are presuming too much. I am well aware of Indo-Caribbeans. A friend of mine and godmother to my children is Indo-Guyanese.

(This was not a question of whether Indians (not Native Americans) “exist”!)

Apart from Abagond’s total mis-reading of my comment, and missing my point — utterly — the last remark sounds eerily like:
“some of my best friends are black”.

May I suggest that the “why” and “how come” it sounds like that is really worth looking into….
on Wed 17 Oct 2012 at 09:15:17 Jefe

the last remark sounds eerily like:
“some of my best friends are black”.

OMG, yes.

I guess we need to rewrite some of the prior observations in this blog:

“Some of my best friends (or relative or spouse) are (fill in the blank)” is a phrase (people who identify with another group) use to prove they are not racist. They also use it when they are about to say something racist: “Some of my best friends (or family) are (fill in the blank), but….” As if that gives them a green light to say any racist thing they want.

http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/07/31/some-of-my-best-friends-are-black/

Sorry, is this being colour-blind? I don’t think I believe we can be colour-blind, but

I must reiterate that I enjoy reading this blog; there are elements of great insight here and there. But sometimes the shoe falls on the other foot.
on Wed 17 Oct 2012 at 10:08:41 Bulanik

From that same thread “some of my best friends are black”.

Abagond says:

If anything the black-best-friend argument shows that the speaker does not know much about racism and is blind to it.

I used to think that whites who marry black or live in black neighbourhoods were not all that racist. But even that is not true! ….They still see things from a self-serving {white} point of view.

Come to think of it, even blacks can be racist against blacks!

I added the brackets around “whites” in that quote.
Abagond did not put those brackets in.

I did that because it highlights that there IS AN AWARENESS of what this is. Sometimes. That awareness shifts, though. It’s a little like “selective memory” or something.

And yes, Abagond’s blog is sometimes simply superb; the writing stunning in its brilliance when insights are most honest.
on Wed 17 Oct 2012 at 10:50:10 Jefe

And yes, Abagond’s blog is sometimes simply superb; the writing stunning in its brilliance when insights are most honest.

That goes for some of the commenters too.
on Wed 17 Oct 2012 at 11:17:56 B. R.

Bringing up Guyana and its 40 percent Indian population is not some kind of “look , i know it exists”. Its verifying that there is a huge Indian population in that South American country, and, that there are huge cultural clashes between them and the “Afro descendants ” there, that is what that report on TV i saw reflected.Take the time to find out the point instead of lashing out….or maybe that just isnt posible

40 percent isnt a side note, like African Muslims taken into slaveryinto the Americas

I guess “friends” is selective, since Ive seen on here people use their African freinds as the referance to try to prove that no Africans refer to themselves as black,when that was blown out of the water…for sure , some Africans do refer to themselves as black
on Wed 17 Oct 2012 at 13:16:02 wilson

I hate to do this AGAIN after making a post in the “of mixed race-identities” post, but abagond you are being TAG-TEAMED.

Bulanik, reading your post here I like your idea about marginalization of groups within groups etc. Abagond in his posts goes for the “big” issues, mainly black white racism. Of late he has been talking a lot about native americans and before that he did posts on asian stereotypes. However, I feel that you want him to talk more about one specific thing that you feel he is ignoring.

But what I think you are doing is trying to dilute the issue. By making him concentrate on things that are small and have minimal impact (excluding those it affects) he will deviate from the major issues that have an impact on A LOT of people (including those marginalized people you refer to, to one extent or another). In short I feel you want to turn him into some sort of academician – if that’s a word and are criticizing him for not being as rigorous and as thorough as an academic should be. Furthermore you are taking it into the territory that their is some kind of conspiracy on his part by trying to associate him with some kind of pattern of behavior towards this “marginalized” group that you are talking about.
on Wed 17 Oct 2012 at 13:49:03 wilson

On multi-culturalism…

Multi cultural by its very definition means the existence or co-existence of people from different cultures within the same sort of space.

However, we know that within this milieu racism still exists and there is a hierarchy where those with “negro” blood are lower down the list. The more “negro” blood you have the lower down the list you are. This is also true in asian societies where in India they classify really dark people as “un-desirable”. The issue is that there is systematic racism in the whole world against the black person. We could all live in a multi-cultural society but that doesn’t mean that racism disappears unless we deal with the issue head on and call it what it is.

Multi-culturalism just masks the issue and making it the primary aspect of our discussions means we don’t talk about the REAL issues. That is how america can appear to be post-racial whilst actually in reality be the opposite. Countries like Brazil are like “Oh look at us, we are so multi-cultural, yay!” but in reality it is totally racist in terms that whiteness is the prevailing ideology which by it’s very definition requires the existence of an inferior underclass.

What about India? Land of enlightenment where they practice such a brutal caste system??
on Wed 17 Oct 2012 at 14:45:05 Bulanik

@wilson. You feel that this is a conspiracy, and you say I want to ‘turn’ a grown, educated and sophisticated but defenseless blogger into an academician because of exchange of ideas….
It seems this subject clearly gets under the skin.

I don’t know how old this blog is, but from the look of The Index, a huge array of subjects are covered from years before.

Abagond writes for himself. So do I, and so do you. Don’t most commenters do that? How is this subject any different? Sometimes Abagond writes about those things that other commenters suggest, or stuff that crops up in conversations here.

If you have been following the conversation in question (from “What to tell children about racism”), you will see that Abagond asked Jefe and me to write a post for him. We both hesitated because of different, and shared, reasons. Do you know what those reasons are? Perhaps if you do if you closer look at that, If you are interested, and have the time and inclination. If you do, it might become apparent to you that you could be barking up the wrong tree. But it might not be apparent, depending on whatever outlook, or conclusion you may have arrived at before reading it.

You say I am “trying” to do something. Aren’t you?
When I have discussed subjects that are important and interesting, am I “trying” then?
What do you think is THE ISSUE I am “diluting”?
Because I am “making” Abagond think about something you consider silly and trivial. {…did I hear someone say “side note”?}

So that means the subject under discussion is not like, small subjects of minimal impact, such as:
*Michael Cook: a brief history of the human race, table contents (This is a very interesting subject, but it’s about a book which may not have been written and has not been read yet.)
*The 10,000 hour rule (about practice needed for proficiency)
*Pitty: Me Adora, a song.
*big bottom girls (need I say more)
*Sophia Loren (whom we are all familiar, but relevant? idk)
*The 10 most gorgeous East Asian Men (a very popular subject)
*Thomas Aquinas (an area of theological disagreement between us)
*How black are Jews? (self-explanatory),
*Tolkien
*Miles Davis, etc., etc.

Some of these subject are fairly recent, aren’t they? Are they the BIG, pressing issues of the day that are distracting us from the more important things? Are we allowed to talk about them, Wilson, if the criterion now, is Big and Pressing that have an impact on the A LOT of people?

Does talking about Barry White, as a subject, for example, deviate from the major issues that have an impact on A LOT of people?
Personally, I think there is a place for Barry White.
In fact, there is room for a lot of subjects….I think Abagond knows that.
And I think you know that.

Why should an area that is not interesting to you concern you in this way, but you don’t mind if someone suggested that they really wanted a post on a Nina Simone song, for example, and got one?

There are dozens and dozens of other, diverse subjects, all of varying interests to different readers and commenters. I don’t read or comment on things that do not interest me….do you? Has Abagond asked you to write a guest post in the last week or so? Do you know the history of the why? If you don’t care about the why, then the answers to your questions and the cogency of your arguments is not as solid as it could be.

Aren’t multiple cultures awful? Brazil? India, too, what a hell-hole it sounds. Solution: don’t talk about those subjects and they’ll go away.
on Wed 17 Oct 2012 at 15:31:48 Jefe

“making him concentrate on things that are small and have minimal impact”
“making it the primary aspect of our discussions means we don’t talk about the REAL issues. ”
“Conspiracy”
@ Bulanik
Solution: don’t talk about those subjects and they’ll go away.

Maybe you’re right. I wonder if I should throw in the towel. Shut up and be suppressed.
But indeed, if a topic is generating discussion, isn’t it truly of interest then? Discussions about the most gorgeous women or men are much more impactful, I guess.

Years ago, I learned about several Asian American discussion forums which had turned very scathing towards “Hapas” who were invading their space and diluting issues viewed not relevant to monoracial Asians. I think it was more about trying to understand why Asian Americans turn so hostile towards the “Hapas”. I was simply hoping this blog would not try to imitate that behavior.

To be frank, I didn’t see any conspiracy here at all. I don’t even think it is hostile. Just a couple people chiming in and saying “I hear ya”.

And to let everyone know, I have submitted guest posts in the past, and more ideas for others, but none of them received any feedback or comment. I never said I would not submit any more, but that I would have to really think about it and spend time on it (which I don’t have now).
on Wed 17 Oct 2012 at 15:36:04 Bulanik

Jefe, you just have it in for Abagond. You are waging a vendetta against him. You have a character flaw. What’s wrong with you mixed-up, mixers, or whatever krap-word you call yourself!!

LOL.
on Wed 17 Oct 2012 at 15:46:40 Jefe
on Wed 17 Oct 2012 at 16:07:46 wilson

Hahaha

First of all let me start by saying that all I posted was just my OWN personal opinions. They are not representative of anyone else.

Now that that is out the way, I find it interesting that both of you are trivializing what I said. I can only assume that this is so others don’t take it into serious consideration. This is a well known tactic used effectively by the mainstream media and people in “official” positions to discredit others.

Secondly, you 2 are working as a team. Is this disputable?

Thirdly, I don’t think I am delusional to think for whatever reason, you both are going up against abagond. Most of the recent posts I have read are always referencing him.

“I said this, he didn’t reply, abagond you do this, do that, bla bla bla, abagond this, abagond that, abagond why can’t you just be what we want you to be?”

Heck may be it is constructive criticism but even after he tries to make amends like with the recent post he did to clarify his position, you guys immediately jump on his back…

Am I being delusional? Is my mind making stuff up?
on Wed 17 Oct 2012 at 16:23:36 wilson

Anyways, I don’t want to get drawn into some long debate.

Bulanik, I think you have very interesting ideas. You come across as very intelligent.

All I am saying is cut abagond some slack. You’ve made your qualms known, now wait for him to adjust and take all you’ve said into consideration.

Jefe is nothing but a critic, full stop.

He is just indulging you to get you to go along on his crusade.
on Wed 17 Oct 2012 at 16:39:06 Jefe

“Secondly, you 2 are working as a team. Is this disputable?”
“Am I being delusional? Is my mind making stuff up?”

Yep, I’m afraid so.

We just started this passionate discussion in the past couple days. There is no collaboration or conspiracy. I am sure our friend Abagond can verify that. He can check where our IP addresses are.
on Wed 17 Oct 2012 at 16:49:42 Bulanik

@ wilson, thanks Dad!!

It might be a mistake to underestimate others. And dismiss them too quickly.
I don’t know “Jefe”. It’s not like we correspond by email or anything like this! OMG.

Wilson, I can think for myself. Really, I can. I have been thinking for myself for a long while. Perhaps when I was younger, in school or universities, I might have been malleable and manipulable. But I don’t get led around much.
(And certainly not by men, or male commenters — that ain’t me, at all.)

I just happen to think Jefe is spot on. Absolutely, so far. On this subject.

But I think a lot of commenters are, when I read them, like Fiamma, Phoebe, Truthbetold (who writes like an angel), Leigh, Brothawolf (I love his posts), sam, Matari, Origin, resjan (the last 2 blow me away sometimes)….there’s a long list. If I think the are spot on, then I do. If I disagree, I disagree. They know that, by now, I believe. I don’t follow…

Look. Abagond may have an “aversion” to commenters like “Bulanik” and stuff that “she” says. It doesn’t matter, it’s not personal. He may, he may not. So what? These are ideas and subjects on an internet forum. There are many other things outside. But this blog is a successful one, isn’t it? How do you know that Abagond isn’t heartened by the traffic and spike of interest caused by this little subject? It should not “threaten” anyone.
I don’t think it does Abagond or his blog any harm

I recall in the last year or so, occasionally (or regularly) seeing comments to say that this blog talks about the same thing over and over, but just with different headings. Well, there might be some truth in that. The last thing anyone of us wants is for the important document (this blog) to become stale, old-hat and boring.
on Wed 17 Oct 2012 at 16:51:34 Bulanik

Wilson, btw, the “thanks Dad” was a joke, and it was NOT meant as an unkindness to you, or to undermine the spirit of what you said. I think we should not too serious when we disagree with passion.
on Wed 17 Oct 2012 at 16:56:31 wilson

@ Bulanik,

Stop, stop! I am not attacking you. It doesn’t matter whether you have an IQ of 200. Anyone can be manipulated. God!

I don’t understand, abagond is not attacking you either yet you think he is. You’ve made that clear.

“Abagond may have an “aversion” to commenters like “Bulanik” and stuff that “she” says.”

Bulanik, I actually have lost sight of what is going on. Just stop, in one hand you are like abusing me in another you want to have a discussion. It’s weird.

Look everything has been said. Lets leave it at that.
on Wed 17 Oct 2012 at 17:01:18 wilson

OK Bulanik, I have just seen your most recent response regarding the “thanks dad” comment. If it’s an apology I accept.

I hope all is well now.
on Wed 17 Oct 2012 at 17:08:05 Bulanik

Wilson, much meaning gets lost in writing forums like these.
Also I think we might be writing from different places in the world, and you might also underestimate how things you write or imply might sound to me, too.
on Wed 17 Oct 2012 at 17:29:03 wilson

@ Bulanik,

I have just read the build up to all this here:

http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/07/29/what-to-tell-your-children-about-racism/

Ok, I see where you are coming from. I think you had valid points but it is still my belief that you took it over-board. Just my opinion btw, maybe it is just how you are or express yourself.

In there you also made references to how abagond treats you that implied you thought he somehow looked down at you or ignored you. I don’t know if this is true or just insecurity.

I am referring to:

“I won’t guess at Jefe’s reasons, yet both of us seem to be saying that we’ve noticed previous comments (and may have composed several ourselves) which shared, suggested and explained these other perspectives, time after time, down the weeks and months… And this was not “critical” commentary, I have to say. I have certainly learned my lesson from making contributions that Abagond hasn’t any interest in “seeing”.”

So to me this indicates that “Yes” there was something personal due to this perceived injustice.

Anyways, I agree with your original premise that maybe there should be greater discussion about multiculturalism or bi-racialism.

I apologize for commenting before going through the earlier stuff. I just saw abagond being “attacked” and reacted. I still do believe it was 90% trying to address a perceived blind spot 10% attack for perceived previous injustices. Just my opinion to justify my actions
on Wed 17 Oct 2012 at 19:22:27 Bulanik

@ wilson. I respect your classiness. I fear that you may not know the half it.

I would ask you to read Legion’s comment here as a starting point: http://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/10/15/of-mixed-race-identities/#comment-148739

Thank you, though, for taking the time to read ONE vein that led to where we are now.

It’s not that I need your approval, Wilson, because it’s not what counts for me.
I don’t really.

I am well past that time in my life, to worry about, or require, such when my own judgment has proved more reliable and trusty in my lifetime. That doesn’t mean I’ve stopped asking, listening or appreciating other commentaries.
It means I have enough self-respect and a little sense to know when I am being gaslighted or underestimated, etc.
I’m hardly unusual in this regard.

My little crime is that I disagreed with Abagond. I feel this is what you do not like. It is nothing personal, it’s fine.
But, I am not the first to do so.
I am not the first to call Abagond and be ignored. I suppose I have been persistent. But that is my entitlement.

I often question myself, as you might do well to question your defensiveness.
And allegiances. By ‘question’, I don’t mean give up.
I could say some things about your turn of phrase too, but that’d be personal, isn’t it? And you wouldn’t think it fair or true. And as I said before, there is no need to make personal digs at you, and it might show poor form on you to do that to me, wouldn’t it.

It’s also my belief that you over-reacted to “defend” another guy, and did so to silence and undermine “Bulanik”, because it’s the easiest way to restore Abagond.

However, that is par for the course on on-line discussions. It’s been hard enough bringing this subject up to people who seem to wish multi-racial people didn’t exist, and would shut up and know their place.
on Wed 17 Oct 2012 at 19:24:01 Bulanik

That should be, I am not the first to “call out Abagond.”
on Wed 17 Oct 2012 at 20:04:32 wilson

@ Bulanik,

Yeah I have read it about 3 times now.

Honestly speaking, and I am being as honest as I can, not attacking what anyone is saying, apart from the main point of “Abagond might not treat biracial or multi-racial people in a fair and just manner in his writing” I think the rest is just personal opinion and a bit of personal grievances. (Regarding this whole issue, not Legion’s Post)

For example: Using Legions Post:

“Suggestion: don’t ask Jorbia (BWE thread) to write this or that guest post. Don’t ask Bulanik or Jefe to write this or that guest post. If they call you out on something or have an issue with something, don’t write a mish mash post or any post just address it in the comment section like you did with Thad in that past thread.”

That is a good suggestion but what if someone counters it as such: If you and Jefe made a post which you seemed qualified to make as the issue in question struck very close to your heart, then wouldn’t future readers find it easier to locate that post (using the Index tab or search function or even through google) than an exchange of comments?

Isn’t this whole thing just a matter of opinion?(The majority of criticism that abagond is getting) Abagond works in one way and some people would prefer him to work in a different? Objectively speaking, no way is better or worse off than the other. You could make points for and against for whichever.

You are correct that I might have over-reacted. No one else was speaking up for him (not that he needs others to do so) so I figured I might as well step in.

Bulanik, as I said, you are obviously someone very intelligent – just my personal view since I have read many of your previous comments, so it is possible that every other point you made regarding this specific issue is 100% valid and I am completely mistaken. I am just stating what I think which could be wrong. However I am trying to see things from your point of view.

It is also my view that he should take what you and others have said into consideration.
on Wed 17 Oct 2012 at 22:12:07 Bulanik

@ wilson. Thank you. Much appreciation.

I think this is a question of honesty and manners.
Why did Jefe and I each have reservation about doing the post Abagond suggested? Well, I won’t speak for Jefe. But I will say this, he has won my respect for his penetrating erudition, his outspoken-ness, and also for his knowledge about most of the commentaries on this blog.

Our reasons for hesitating to write a post for Abagond differed, but overlapped and sprang up at the same time. We had a shared experience. It didn’t actually boil down to a matter of opinion and different ways of working.

We had both contributed comments that Abagond used for his own posts now and then. There’s nothing objectionable in that. But, it seemed, unlike other commenters in the same position who might be credited for their occasional input or inspiration, this small courtesy was not extended in our (separate) directions by the blogger. Not at all.

In contrast, when either us made direct suggestions or asked direct questions about subjects that interested us, like “multi-racial” issues….zero, no reply. Skipped over. No contact whatever, whilst we still wrote contributing comments at times that the blogger used as a launch-pad for his own…. This went on through the weeks and months…I suppose something snapped at that stage when we saw, in black and white, that Abagond considered mixed-race people who self-defined as essentially flawed characters for doing so.
Oh. Like us? That’s what he thought of us then…..
We saw that we were occasionally useful but merely tolerated, at best.
It felt like what we discussed earlier…white racism from white people and non-white “treatment” for being what we were….

Abagond asked us to write a post.
Jefe did not have the time.
I have some unpleasant work on, another death in the family (2 in 3 months). What was the point of producing for anyone, since Abagond took what he liked from our writing, but never bothered with either of us before? or paid any mind to us when we asked for something close to our experience? So now that he wanted us to do some writing for him …what did that make us, then? I’d had my fill by that stage…

Naturally Bloggers vary; they’re regular people with real lives to get on with.
Commenters are folks, too.
However, I do think the rule of treating others as one would like to be treated oneself, is golden no matter what medium is used. Abagond could have just talked to us. He didn’t.

Good manners, humility and a little respect (for commenters who return and contribute month after month) go a long way, even on the internet.
on Wed 17 Oct 2012 at 22:48:43 wilson

@ Bulanik,

Wow ok, I felt in that one post you’ve explained everything quite clearly.

It appears you and Jefe have a different experience with abagond. Well I can’t speak for him but I hope he responds to both your grievances.

As a reader of this blog, I obviously admire abagond for what he says and how he says it for the most part. I also admire the commentators for what they have to say and how they contribute to certain discussions. So I hope you all can settle this in a decent manner since I think most of everyone here wants the same thing.

Condolences for the loss within your family. I hope you are doing well.
on Thu 18 Oct 2012 at 02:26:25 Jefe

OK, to be quick
- Yeah, have seen things lifted from comments before and changed into new postings (no acknowledgement)
- have actually sent in draft posts before, with ideas for others (no comments, no feedback)
- have actually made comments regarding this related issue for over a year – no comments or feedback
- really busy in the past week or two, with work travel and deadlines on things – it takes time to compose a well thought out posting

“Abagond could have just talked to us. He didn’t. ” Yep.

“Good manners, humility and a little respect (for commenters who return and contribute month after month) go a long way, even on the internet.”
I am starting to wonder if he is doing this to see how much activity he generates on his blog, instead of just writing for the sake of writing about topics on his mind. Maybe he was like that back in 2006-2009, but it seems to be different now.
And activity generated – oh yes he succeeded here this time.

No, I was not looking for people to team up with and attack Abagond. No reason for that. I have enjoyed his blog.

But, over the past year and a half, it has happened that I made a comment that put a little different angle on the topic and another posted something to the tune of “Yeah, that is 100% spot on”. But none of that generated any response from Abagond. It’s OK. I am not expecting any.

I think the interchange with Bulanik started in just that manner. I think it escalated only because of some of the reasons already mentioned. But I don’t believe it ever turned hostile.
on Thu 18 Oct 2012 at 09:01:04 B. R.

There is nothing trivial about Miles Davis…in 100 years from now theywill be studying his music as one of the most important contribitons to American music in the last century….but, this just highlights another typical opinion fom someone who just frivilises black culture, who never really got it anyway, as amply demonstrated on that “Miles Davis” thread.Miles Davis is not just the “choons”
on Thu 18 Oct 2012 at 09:36:41 B. R.

Talk about not understanding internlased racism….if a person really understands the value of their culture ,internalised racism evaporates like melting ice…that is exactly the crux of internalised racism, having your culture denied triviolised and sluffed off as frivilous drumming, or music , when music is just the gateway to the power of a life affirming force. A force that can sustain a person or a people against slavery, racism , and a violent racism, as the force of black American music has sustained black Americans in their violent struggle against white American racism. Just look at “Negro” spirituals, at how jazz conquered American culture and the world

Which doesnt diminish the importance of the complex issues of a mixed “race” person in American society, I dont triviolise either.

The attitudes of white Americans against mixed “race” people were formed in slavery. The attitudes of black Americans , as you might see in Abagond, were more from the political black American Civil Rights movement,fanned by people like Fannon (like him over pshycho analysing a light skinned black women regecting black men for white men, as though that could represent any black woman who might date white men).

The political gains of the Black American Civil Rights Movement were enormous, the results were forged in struggle , blood, and violence .Racism against black Americans in America is violent. The dfences needed to fight and overcome that had to be deeply strong.

Some things were stepped on to forge that strength, you can see some of those things stepped on with its aftermath over on the BWE thread

And, mixed race people got stepped on also.

So, Jeffe, you have to ask yourself do you really understand what it is like to be a black American, living under a violent racism? Or anyone else outside of America, do you really understand black American culture, and what it is like living under a violent racism?

It is in that context that you have to analyse what Abagond has said
on Thu 18 Oct 2012 at 11:21:35 Bulanik

Thomas Aquinas was a 13th century genius who laid the groundwork for later development of Western science and was one of the chief enablers for Europe to become the force it became. That is an important subject in itself.
However, I had to point out to Abagond that this common belief might be debatable, and even possibly eurocentric, in outlook:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2007/01/05/aquinas/#comment-133919

JRR Tolkien was a legend-maker in the English language, and language creator, and is considered one of the greatest writers that ever lived. Yet, as admired as he is, other commenters on this blog questioned the internalized racism in Tolkien’s work (particularly against Arabs, and Islam). I was not involved in that conversation.

Michael Cook, and historians like him, have to be questioned in the way they write history because their internalized racism skews the way history is written. Even though “race” is no longer seen as a factor in Michael Cook’s book outline, geographic determinism is, which is simply another way of doing the same racist thing, something the blogger and I discussed:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/09/06/reading-michael-cook-the-table-of-contents/#comment-144633

Because other commenters don’t involve themselves in a discussion, like the ones above, it doesn’t mean they don’t understand something. How silly is that.
Those examples were used for the sake of illustration.

Of course these are all important discussions, in their own right and in their own field, and beyond. It depends on what the reader chooses to read about, and the commenter, to comment on. Everyone does that, arguments and subjects stand up and continue (or not), based on their worth and level of interest to others. If I think Abagond is wrong about something,and I feel like saying it, I’m not going to suck up to him. If he says something of brilliance, I’ll say it. To a lot of people, that is just common sense and, self-respect.

I think sometimes when reading a discussion on this blog, an individual argument has to be thought about and seen for what it is before responding.
But, perhaps that’s generally true for a lot of things.
on Thu 18 Oct 2012 at 13:56:58 Bulanik

@ wilson. Thank you for your condolences. You’re a gentleman.
on Thu 18 Oct 2012 at 14:12:08 Jefe

@BR

you have to ask yourself do you really understand what it is like to be a black American, living under a violent racism? Or anyone else outside of America, do you really understand black American culture, and what it is like living under a violent racism?

I might not be able to know exactly what it is like to be a black American, but …

I certainly know what it is like to live under violent racism — perhaps even more than the blogger himself.

I am a native of Anacostia in SE Washington, DC and grew up there and in adjoining Prince George’s County, MD. If anyone is familiar with that area, they know that I have ample experience in poverty stricken or working class black neighborhoods. I have seen it first hand — White flight, blockbusting, police abandoning protecting neighborhoods once white flight starts. Even I have been harrassed by the police myself just by being in those neighborhoods.

Violence — yes, indeed. When we moved deeper into PG county, the neighbors attacked us – burned fires in our yard, dumped trash, stole items from the property and car, threw rocks and broke our windows, and I was chased and beat up frequently. Once I had to get treatment for a broken set of gums. Several youths planted Japanese flags in our yard and said Japs go home, get out of here (no one in my family has any Japanese background). My childhood was filled with fear and terror. I was there when MD forced it to desegregate in the 1970s, the largest public school system in the country subject to mandatory bussing, and I lived next to a school which had many violent encounters until the white parents yanked their kids out and put them in Christian academies.

My mother is a native of Anniston, AL. When I was born, the freedom riders there were beaten with pipes and the busses were fire-bombed. My father beat my mother up often (that is another story, but I think race was a part of that too), and when she tried to leave him and seek refuge with her parents, they refused to let her bring *me* to live with them. Given the racial climate then, I think they feared that the KKK could attack them too – they were full of shame and fear that their grandson would be discovered and lectured me throughout my childhood about how the Bible condemned what my parents did and such people will go to *hell*.
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/08/23/mothers-day-in-anniston/

When I was a child, my family could not travel around the country, not even rent a hotel room because of the anti-miscegenation laws. The only way my family could find housing was by my mother renting by herself and my father moving in later.

And to go back further, my paternal great-grandfather was lynched by a white mob in Oregon (around 1890) when he was a young man. My grandfather was orphaned as a young child back in China, and never got to know his father. My grandfather did not come to settle in the USA until the 1930s, and other relatives came later.

I have thousands of other stories (some violent, some not), but I think you get the point.
And, as a teenager and young adult, in an effort to understand what was going on, I read and studied voraciously on the topic of race and ethnicity in the USA.

I may not know exactly what it is like to be a black American, but I have lived in black neighborhoods and have experienced plenty of violent racism myself. In fact, it is one of the reasons why I decided to leave the USA. The persistent deep and often violent racism there is one of the reasons I do not like living there.

if a person really understands the value of their culture ,internalised racism evaporates like melting ice

Sorry, but this does not help. I may understand the cultural background of my parents even better than they do, certainly better than my monoracial cousins. But I have been persecuted for holding on to both my parents’ heritage as far back as I can remember.
on Thu 18 Oct 2012 at 14:23:07 Bulanik

@ Jefe

“…over the past year and a half, it has happened that I made a comment that put a little different angle on the topic and another posted something to the tune of “Yeah, that is 100% spot on”. But none of that generated any response from Abagond. It’s OK. I am not expecting any….I think it escalated only because of some of the reasons already mentioned. But I don’t believe it ever turned hostile.

If we look at the subject matters that are up for discussion on this blog, it is hardly narrow. A huge, I mean, a huge range of subjects are covered here, from Jackie O’s apartment in New York to the Turing code, to the Black Sheep Turks to Solzhenitsyn…. I recall a commenter once telling Leigh204, who is Filipino-Canadian commenter, that basically, Leigh had nothing important to contribute because she could never understand the racism or subjects under discussion, because this blog is a black blog. Do you recall this conversation?
Quite unthinking, and insulting to the experience of people of colour.

I watched this small incident on the Ellen Show last month, which featured the rapper from Korea, Psy. Notice Ellen does not even have the courtesy to introduce her guest, by name. Simon Cowell doesn’t even get up. And, I see Britney Spears is wearing a nice dress…(wink, LOL).
Psy, is just treated just like any other “weird” East Asian….

This almost invisible, acceptable lack of recognition is probably typical of the internalized racism many people do not see towards those non-white, non-black people they perhaps assume absolutely can not understand, have lesser feelings, lead much easier lives and have no concept of what it is ever know what violent or very subtle dehumanization. There are also countries outside the US…. There are many more, and much better examples, but this one simply came to mind as I was writing this out.
on Thu 18 Oct 2012 at 14:47:49 Bulanik

@Jefe

…My childhood was filled with fear and terror…..

…My father beat my mother up often (that is another story, but I think race was a part of that too)…

…And to go back further, my paternal great-grandfather was lynched by a white mob in Oregon (around 1890) when he was a young man. My grandfather was orphaned as a young child back in China, and never got to know his father….

…I have been persecuted for holding on to both my parents’ heritage as far back as I can remember….

There was a thread, not so long ago, titled something like: “What was your first experience of white racism”, I think. It invited commenters, not white commenters (like the one you addressed this comment to), to share those memories and experiences. I declined to present mine, because I do not find this “environment” a safe or wholesome one. I suspected that in because in the hands of the ignorant and vicious such commentaries are a tool. How much horror and suffering did I have unveil about my life and family for other non-participating readers to “get off” on, and consider “enough” as “oppression credentials” to appease THEM. It’s a choice we all have.

Jefe, I feel where you are coming from. I know some of what you talk about above, too. Thank you for courageously putting out there. It’s powerful stuff. Some things you say is why I never took the opportunity to live in the US with my family. And it is, in part, why I protect myself.
on Thu 18 Oct 2012 at 15:48:41 Kwamla

@ Bulanik

You were spot on with that analysis of the video you posted above:

“…Psy, is just treated just like any other “weird” East Asian…”

It was amazing to watch how subtlety disrespectful Elllen was to not even introduce him properly. Psy had the awareness to make up for that by introducing himself. Ellen’s typically “white unaware” approach is no different to how Black people would have been treated prior to the 60′s before they began making up noise.

(One minor observation: Simon Cowell didn’t get up because he would have had to embarrass himself as a typical “no rthymn” , “non-dancing white male”!)

This is precisely the type of marginalisation the comments you and Jefe have been speaking to on this post and else where. The point to emphasis here is that even Black people and POC can be equally guilty of adopting this reverse “white unaware” approach. Its exactly the same thing just that the colour is reversed.

This is what Abagond doesn’t quite get yet. But the real issue is he doesn’t believe he needs to. You and Jefe are by no means the only ones who have attempted to point this out to him. I also have in other contexts.

@ Jefe

I think your comment here wonderful and concisely describes this typically “not getting it” experience and a bit more….

http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/11/25/internalized-racism/#comment-148875

For a seasoned Black blogger of Abagond’s obvious merit, skill, dedication and passion its difficult to comprehend why he continually refuses to acknowledge these valid and relevant issues. As he has himself, in numerous posts, pointed out to white Americans on the subject of their own racism: simply ignoring it does not make it go away!
on Thu 18 Oct 2012 at 16:03:41 Bulanik

@Kwamla Simon Cowell, dancing!! Oh no! LOL.

(…and here is another chuckle…. “Bulanik” practically writes posts on a daily basis on this blog, and has done so for the best part of a year, so no one has the foggiest who she is and readers will tune out for that reason….cue eerie music….LOL)
on Thu 18 Oct 2012 at 16:24:01 Kwamla

@ Bulanik,

In terms of contributing to Abagond’s varied and at times diverse mixture of posts. I don’t think there is anyone in the last year or two who has probably written more responses than you. And detailed ones at that…!!! Though B.R is chasing you maybe not in the coverage of topics just in the sheer quantity!!
on Thu 18 Oct 2012 at 16:33:25 Bulanik

Abagond said this in the “Of mixed identities” thread

“…. most people reading it will have no idea who Bulanik is and I did not want to make this post seem too much of an inside thing that would make prospective readers tune out….”

And broke my sides laughing…(in between mixing plaster and taking calls)…

Thank you, Kwamla.
I hope Abagond doesn’t underestimates his readership; there are many people out there who have a wide range of intellectual and creative interests, who don’t limit themselves to a narrow range (due to their ethnic background, etc.).
on Thu 18 Oct 2012 at 17:16:14 abagond

@ Jefe

“- Yeah, have seen things lifted from comments before and changed into new postings (no acknowledgement)
- have actually sent in draft posts before, with ideas for others (no comments, no feedback)
- have actually made comments regarding this related issue for over a year – no comments or feedback
- really busy in the past week or two, with work travel and deadlines on things – it takes time to compose a well thought out posting”

1. I am not great at answering comments. I will try to do better in the future. The only time I pointedly do not answer someone is when I think they are being a troll. You and Bulanik have never done that: your comments have always been thoughtful and serious.

2. From what I remember you did offer some wonderful ideas for posts and I said so to you, but I do not remember receiving any draft posts.

3. If you can give an example of the first one that would be helpful. I do not remember doing it.
on Thu 18 Oct 2012 at 18:11:35 Jefe

After I sent you an initial query, I sent you a couple of draft posts a month or two afterwards and ideas for additional ones. Maybe they just got lost in your email pile. I started drafting a few more, but I wanted to hear back from you first.
I’ll look for it again.
on Thu 18 Oct 2012 at 18:26:50 Jefe

@Bulanik
“Some things you say is why I never took the opportunity to live in the US with my family. And it is, in part, why I protect myself.”

I have told people that here (where I live now). In the US, they simply cannot get around the huge problem of race there. Well, sometimes they have something come out like “Forrest Gump” to point it out to people (even in a humourous way). But since the 80s, it became something that you simply don’t talk about anymore, at least not in public. I said it before, but it is the big elephant in the room that no one is supposed to talk about.

Even my parents fooled themselves into thinking they got past the racial differences in their marriage. But they did not. I think it was a big part of what tore their family and marriage apart.

Anyhow, I got so sick and tired of it I had to take a break and leave. But, it is funny — racism is part of the overseas societies as well – it takes new forms and looks different, but it is there too. But what I experienced in the USA prepared me for the worst that I could ever encounter anywhere else in the world.
I am not in any hurry to get back to the USA. Besides race, they have some other serious problems that they are not serious about tackling. Actually, I do think the president wants to fix some of those problems but he is stymied at every turn.
on Thu 18 Oct 2012 at 18:34:35 Bulanik

@ Jefe

The commenter, sam, said this:

“… american racism…. demand(s) racial identity, its claim that without racial identity you are nobody and you do not belong anywhere….”

It demands it. Really. It’s a prerequisite to existence.
Perhaps (for Americans) knowing the definite race of someone is what makes someone REAL. I don’t know how true this is, but it does make sense.

sam’s full comment, as I put in those brackets:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/10/15/of-mixed-race-identities/#comment-148833
on Thu 18 Oct 2012 at 19:18:28 Jefe

I think the 2nd part of the statement is relevant –
“Or that you are, some how, a race traitor. That is very american take on this issue.”
Race traitor – it is another name for being called a sell-out.

Growing up I lived near a community of one of those “tri-racial isolates” They are mostly Mulatto, but there is some Native American ancestry among them ( I would hazard a guess that they are about 45% white, 40% black, 15% Native American). They kept separate from both the whites and blacks, and often intermarried among themselves. Most looked mulatto-ish, but some looked more black; some could pass as white; a few did indeed look part Native American.
To avoid the racial labels, they kept themselves apart from both the white and black communities. If they moved to large urban areas, I read they tended to mix more with blacks. In the rural areas, they mixed with each other, or perhaps sometimes with working class whites. But in my area, they were forced to put a racial label on themselves and some called themselves “American Indian” (I think, partially, to avoid being labelled white or black). They were ridiculed for it. I think the greater community wanted to split them up into nice even groups, even if it meant to tear their own community apart.
Tearing a community apart is not a problem, but keeping a separate identity is akin to being a race traitor.

I don’t think it is purely an American thing. Some marginalized people form their own new groups. It happens all over the world.
on Thu 18 Oct 2012 at 20:10:35 Bulanik

“Some marginalized people form their own new groups. It happens all over the world.”

It does happen all over the world.
And, it also happens within families. It will depend on appearance, personal style, and of course, which country you live in.

In Ireland, so much will depend on how I style myself, if I curl my hair or have it smooth, or whatever. if I say I am black I get looked at. funny, and told I am not. If I wear a headscarf…then I am a Muslim, or an Arab (I am neither).
Other times, are you Mauritian? The West Africans I know here say that I am Indian, a couple of times I have heard “Fulani” mentioned. When I am in England, I am usually mistaken for Sri Lankan, occasionally Somali, “Spanish” or Maltese.
People see what they want to see, I have found. And they don’t listen.
It amuses now more than anything.

My brother is mistaken for “Arab”, usually North African. He always gets stopped at the airport and treated like “A Dirty Arab”, he says! LOL!
One sister, who is “white skinned”, is mistaken for Persian or Turkish or Punjabi, or Uzbek or Khazak or a light-skinned Central Asian.
She is seen as “white” Cuban (mixed with Asian, maybe) when in Florida.
My other sister, dark-skinned like me, but with light-coloured and slanted eyes, was once told that she “must be” Yemeni Arab or Omani, and that she was actually “lying” when she said she was born in Jamaica, and making a fool of herself for saying she was a “black woman”, who was she trying to fool….

As individuals, they know who they are, and are not confused; it seems that is the province of others; they have all had the experience of other black people telling them they couldn’t know what it’s like to be black..and one sister even had a white American woman lecture her about that because my sister didn’t “talk black” enough for this woman to be satisfied … {rolls eyes}

Since the siblings live in the US, they each have different racial designations and are not considered “related” because a lot of people don’t want to see they are related….how can they even have a resemblance!!!! they all have different skin colours, etc. When we were young, some folk would even say to us when we were together: do you all have the same father?
Right where my mother and father were sitting.

It’s caused fracturing among us.
on Thu 18 Oct 2012 at 22:37:20 Nay Le Bon

Goodday all!

I’m mixed race! Yes “MIXED RACE” … Mixed race by standard of recognition for the statistical record keeping of government documents that tell us how many of you, me’s, he, she’s, black, white, yellow blah blah blah.. All in an attempt to inform the nations of which race is over or under populating a certain place at a certain time.. (yep, blacks were once supposed to be taking over Hanckney, London eheh) And in all my ranting, might I add that being mixed race isn’t enough..? We then need to state WHAT we are mixed race with .. And why? For the standard of recognition for the statistical record keeping of government BLAH BLAH BLAH.(you get the Jist!!)

Anyway, enough of the bulls**t .. this is my one and ONLY view.. !
I am black and always will be…!!
So regardless of the 25% white blood, 25% indian and er.. (I never was good at fractions) I do and always will identify myself as being black. I am not in any way denying the white or indian side because I love who I am, I love my relatives and I love all that God created .. so in essence.. I love you all … you whites, blacks, asians, latinos .. .yes I love you allllllllllll You, we, are all fabulous and wonderful creatures of God !!!

BUT !! My point is this.. we should not be afraid to love who we are.. alot of ppl jump onto the bandwagon of exaggeratting their many different heritages to take the focus off the side they are most insecure of (YES, THE BLACK SIDE) which is sad..! That is the side of us we need to stand up for most!!

Black people…we have a secret that no-one else knows.. so by changing who we are we are forgetting that secret. And it’s something that our oppressors are trying sooo hard to get us to forget. I do not need to tell u what that secret is because if u look hard inside yourself u will discover it.
on Thu 18 Oct 2012 at 23:13:25 Bulanik

It’s so personal to the individual what they feel. Who they are. What they know.
If you are black and a bit o’ this an’ a pinch o’ that, and it’s good, then it’s good.

But I think others can only speculate on what they imagine must be in the psychology of a person who thinks differently. (And unrelated )
That’s quite a big know-all leap to make. And an exaggeration in itself.

What another person may or may not be “insecure” about, and what they must, should necessarily stand up for, is …. an assumption.
How can another know for themselves precisely what the person feels and thinks? One size does NOT fit all. And, if you do not go along with it, then, there the sign is shown: deficit or something, aka, not authentic.
Perhaps that judgment is not for others to make… And is the stuff of nonsense.

Only that individual knows.
And is that “secret” the domain of one race of people?
Idk. Perhaps what others try to take away from you is what can never be surrendered.
on Thu 18 Oct 2012 at 23:28:18 Bulanik

@ Kwamla

In terms of contributing to Abagond’s varied and at times diverse mixture of posts. I don’t think there is anyone in the last year or two who has probably written more responses than you. And detailed ones at that…!!!

LOL! Abagond has not noticed (*wink).

But thanks, Kwamla, it’s been a fun day in the real world and on the net, and way past my bedtime.
on Thu 18 Oct 2012 at 23:37:35 wilson

@ Bulanik,

If I read your response above correctly, aren’t you doing to Nay Le Bon what you are accusing abagond of doing to mixed race people?

Nay Le Bon has come out and told us who he thinks he is in his own terms. I accept it.

Why don’t you?
on Thu 18 Oct 2012 at 23:43:42 wilson

I only say this because of this statement:

“That’s quite a big know-all leap to make. And an exaggeration in itself.”

I hope I didn’t misunderstand it because to me it sounded like putting Nay down.
on Thu 18 Oct 2012 at 23:45:05 Bulanik

@ wilson.

I am not putting anyone down. Please stop this, okay.
Good night.
on Fri 19 Oct 2012 at 09:12:39 Bulanik

@ wilson

Nay Le Bon has come out and told us who he thinks he is in his own terms. I accept it.
Why don’t you?

“…..has come out and told us….”
What, like in the closet sense? WTF?
Wilson, what are you REALLY up to?

I am beginning to have my suspicions about you, Wilson. And I take a dim view of your motives. As I do your presumption ‘over’ me.

Legion on the “Of mixed identities” thread brought up the notion of “gaslighting”…. may I suggest you have a look at it (Legion’s comment and “gaslighting”), and if you do choose to read it, perhaps you can ask yourself why Legion saw a limited parallel with that, and why I am beginning to agree.

I’ve been commenting now daily on this blog for well over a year, and you want me to NOW come out and tell what I think I am on my terms? I mean, really? You are beginning to sound like Abagond, who thought no commenters had heard of “Bulanik”, and commented as if in innocence when he said that…. Well, if you don’t know me by now, then you never, never will — as in the words of the song.

If another commenter tells us something, that is their decision and comment.
YOU KNOW THAT.
Should I copy that comment? Or should I “obey” YOU? Because you want some particular and personal info about me? Why?
I have my choices, and I will exercise them. We all do. Everyone discloses whatever you wish and when. Why should I be any different for your benefit?
Well, I don’t have to comply. And I don’t have to please. Your approval is irrelevant and unimportant to me, wilson. Got that?
How many ways would you like me to tell you that?

Maybe, you feel entitled to “police” this “Bulanik”. Idk.
What do you hope to do with the “new revelations” from her closet?
You’ve made some “personal” remarks,already, like I am “sly”, etc.
Above, you say my remarks to Abagond are actually accusations .

Yet, when I point out something and you can’t see it…
Fair enough. You see what you want to see.
You try another angle, and say you will think about it.
I tell what you say is neither true nor fair. You apologize…then you do another “patrol” and come back in the same way.

I am beginning to ask myself why you feel so entitled to more personal information about me. And what your specific prejudice is.
I am watching you on this one.
on Fri 19 Oct 2012 at 09:20:13 B. R.

Jefe, thanks for sharing your exeriances,I can tell you, I have faced violent situations also,some racial, and, for 26 years, I have faced discrimination for my nationality, marginalisation , to outright disgusting insults from passing cars.The number of times I have been in a social situation where I have been the only white guy, or only white guy in a band is too huge to remember, and Ive seen the outright discrimination to my black American colleagues up close….but, I know, I dont really know what its like to be black in America.

And, you are missing the point,being, the collective black American struggle , against the most violent and discriminative virulant racism, has had to forge enormous defences. And, in that process, some groups of people got stepped on. Its in that context that you should reguard Abagond’s statements.You shouldnt be concentrating on him, but , the defences, out of political activism, that have stepped on mixed race people. And ,you cant deny the enormous gains that were made by the black American community by forging those defences,that small parts stepped on some peoples sensibilities…you cant lose sight of the bigger ´picture. You also cant lose sight of how black Americans got hurt by some of these defences also, the aftermath being clear on the BWE thread.Some political activism can make great strides forwards, other political activism can cause serious and lasting damage .

You also dont get my point about embrassing one’s culture to deal with eternal racism. It doesnt stop the outside discrimination, it fortifies the person inside.Ive brought in several African youtubes of war torn orphans practicing their culture to gain back a sence of who they are and their self value. And, Ives seen a moving documentry of war torn Uganda children , from the most tragic backgrounds, participating in a cultural contest demonstrating their artistic talents, and you can see the huge transition of their expresions of how fullfilling it was to be expressing their culture, with moving testimomies od how it made them feel whole again
on Fri 19 Oct 2012 at 09:23:59 B. R.

Kwamla, about my quantity of posts, Im just waiting for you to catch up…….ha
on Fri 19 Oct 2012 at 12:34:33 wilson

@ Bulanik,

Uhmm, I don’t know what to say… Maybe you feel like I have something against you. I will back off.
on Sat 20 Oct 2012 at 22:25:26 Bulanik

@ Jefe

Earlier up-thread, I said:

…I suppose if mono-racial PoC suffer at the hands of white supremacy, then “othered” non-whites should suffer at the hands mono-racial PoC.”

http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/11/25/internalized-racism/#comment-148538

(“Mono-racial” is used as a ‘shorthand’, mentioned earlier.)

Shortly afterwards, you said this in reply to Abagond:
“I am trying to figure out at what point the message gets lost. Is it the word “suffer”?

http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/11/25/internalized-racism/#comment-148538

The belief and acceptance of the suffering of “othered” non-whites consistently hits a wall. Previously I said this:

…when an oppressed group wants to marginalize a sub-group, it’s not due to “not caring”. I liken it more to squashing an irritant.
Why bother…?
{Instead}…..Ignore ‘em, or pretend you have never heard of them…and they’ll go away and fade to black, literally.

Contrast that to black-in-America — that’s different, real, more important.

I should add: diminish, dismiss and play down the suffering of these sub-groups.

I think what we understand by:
1. “suffering”, and ideas about
2. “levels” of suffering and mistreatment,
are topics worthy of further examination.
on Sun 21 Oct 2012 at 09:47:56 B. R.

It never had anything to do with “who suffered more”, and everything to do with not understadning black American culture.

People can point fingers at someone and call them “racist”, “opressor”, use all the language that was developed right out of the black American Civil Rights movement, but, they have no idea what real black American culture and the real struggle was all about.

They are more than willing to attack Abagond for his views , but, have no idea of the origins of those views and how it has much more to do with a political activist agenda , that was part of a much bigger political activist agenda.

They dont know how to go back to “Mashed Potatoes”time, they dont even know what that means, because you really have to go back to the time when the black American dance , The Mashed Potatoes was in style to understand that coming up soon in the future is going to be a major shift in the political thinking of black Americans.”House and Feild Negro” doesnt explain this because house and feild doesnt break down in color. Colorism existed, but, the “mixed race” individual was not scrutinised in a political agenda context as it has become now.

People arnt giving the black American struggle enough ackowledgement, in this look at “mixed race” attitudes, that it was about putting together defences against this unrelenting white violent racism, which again, they know nothing about …sorry, but having violent situations in someones life has nothing to do with living under Jim Crow laws, white flight real estate, police brutality and society putting you down and stripping you of your culture etc all amped up on Afro descendants brought over from slavery.And it just shows that people cant just look at the black American situation with out having to compare it to any other situation on the planet…this is a blog by a black American , with black American sensitivities, not Indian from India, Arab, Chinese, European, etc

Because if they truly understood how absolutly total these defences had to be put in place to overcome a system that truly was against succeeding , if they truly understood black American culture and how it developed, they would see that it isnt about attacking one person for something they are saying, its about going to the origins of this agenda and looking at it as the real cause of some of the views about “mixed race ” people that have put them in the middle of a no win situation ..they are showing a lack of sympathy for the defences needed.

Are “mixed race” individuals sensitivities important? Absolutly!

There is a need to re examine some of these political agendas that just dont carry over, and are just a yoke on everyone , blatently on display in the BWE thread.But , you cant diminish the struggle. The black American struggle against white racism is a work in progress, its on going. And, because of this struggle, there have been enormous gains…70 percent middle class in a system that never wanted or cared for them to succeed..

Yes, some sensitivities have been lost in the struggle

The incredible black American art of tap dancing got thrown under a bus it never has recovered from

Thanks to herculian efforts by Wynton Marsalis, Louis Armstrong , put down by this poltica agenda , for shucking and jiving to the white man, finaly has been recognised for the genius he represents in American culture

And “mixed race ” people have been caught in the middle of a political agenda that really leaves them in a horrible position, and, it deserves to be scrutinised very hard….because America is changing..fast..and who is stuck in political agendas from the past, may be lost in the confusion as the change comes…they will suffer in the long run more than mixed race people

Tyrone is a black American whose defences are rightfully locked and loaded against white racism. He deserves to shine a light on this white racism and how it will seep into so many areas to only try to put him down…but, his views on “mixed race ” people might end up as stiff bonds that could be melted away in him if he one day met a mixed race girl that he fell in love with , or someone who might save his life or help him in a profound way that would highlight the barriours of his beleifs about mixed race people

But, if peope dont really understand black American culture , the origins of the poltical activist agendas, what it was like before, they are just surfacly attacking what someone sais and not getting anywhere near the real issues and answers to why these things are how they are now
on Sun 21 Oct 2012 at 10:04:19 B. R.

I am always perplexed at the boogie woogie that goes on with this blog and the semantical instant political activist scrutiny

“black”, “sub Sahara”, “mixed race”, I mean they are all inadaquate metaphors

but, subtitute them with more inadequate metaphors, as filled with holes as swiss cheese?

Take ” aboriginal indigenous natives”…I mean seriously

“aboriginal” blatently brings to mind “aboriginies” from Australia and could be severly confusing.

“indigenous”, why dont they ever say “Hitler invaded the indigenous people of Poland and the Sovite Union and France”? it seems only reserved for suposedly people outside of “civilisation”

“natives” only conjures up visions of “the natives are restless”

Its totaly as inadaquate as the other terms and actualy confuses conversation, only regulating it to some elite scholar “I am superiour to you because I can use these confusing complicated definitions”

Comunication is what is important, not some semantical out pointing the other with suposidly political correctness
on Sun 21 Oct 2012 at 10:38:40 B. R.

Sorry, Abagond , both these posts were meant for the “Mixed Race Thread”
on Mon 22 Oct 2012 at 02:40:54 leigh204

@ Bulanik:

I recall a commenter once telling Leigh204, who is Filipino-Canadian commenter, that basically, Leigh had nothing important to contribute because she could never understand the racism or subjects under discussion, because this blog is a black blog. Do you recall this conversation?
Quite unthinking, and insulting to the experience of people of colour.

Say what? I’m a person of colour? Well, I learn something new every day.
on Mon 22 Oct 2012 at 02:59:47 phoebeprunelle

Internalized racism is what you can find over at Diary of a Tired Black Man Forums, Sgt. Willie Pete’s Gen-X blog, Evia Moore’s blog and Halima’s Blog..

and various other blogs supposedly for and run by black people.
on Mon 22 Oct 2012 at 03:24:01 Jefe

@Leigh
“Well, I learn something new every day. ”
Yeah, but can you ever understand any of the subjects under discussion.
on Mon 22 Oct 2012 at 03:33:57 leigh204

@ Jefe:

@Leigh
“Well, I learn something new every day. ”
Yeah, but can you ever understand any of the subjects under discussion.

No, I cannot as I’m a Filipino-Canadian. I don’t have anything to contribute.
on Mon 22 Oct 2012 at 14:24:44 Bulanik

@ leigh204

Say what? I’m a person of colour? Well, I learn something new every day.

You mean, like, you understand racism or subjects under discussion, even on a black blog? That’s a stretch. I thought you only know about being kinda stepped on, too, but not like deep stuff….
on Mon 22 Oct 2012 at 15:15:23 Nay Le Bon

Wow!! Why does EVERY opinion on these forums get deemed as some kind of personal vendetta against the whole world.. lol! People need to chill the f**k out!!
on Mon 22 Oct 2012 at 16:21:18 Jefe

@Leigh

No, I cannot as I’m a Filipino-Canadian. I don’t have anything to contribute.

Yeah, know you’re place and stay there.

WAIT. Did you say that you were FILIPINO-CANADIAN? Can you PROVE that?
on Tue 23 Oct 2012 at 11:12:27 Bulanik

@Leigh, what do you think of this?

Rihanna has launched a new perfume, it’s called “Nude”, and she’s gone naked and blonde for it. http://style.mtv.com/2012/10/08/rihanna-nude-fragrance-image/

The only question I had when I saw that ^^ was as the whole idea of the ad is her nude skin, what colour is “nude”?

I used to remember looking for tights and band-aid plasters and seeing them called colours like “nude” and “skin”, and they were certainly not brown! LOL.
on Tue 23 Oct 2012 at 11:36:11 leigh204

@ Jefe:

@Leigh

No, I cannot as I’m a Filipino-Canadian. I don’t have anything to contribute.

Yeah, know you’re place and stay there.

WAIT. Did you say that you were FILIPINO-CANADIAN? Can you PROVE that?

lol! I can’t prove I’m Filipino-Canadian. However, I’ve been commenting here and there on Abagond’s blog for the past four years. I’ve always stated I was Filipino-Canadian.
on Tue 23 Oct 2012 at 11:39:38 leigh204

@ Bulanik:

@Leigh, what do you think of this?

Rihanna has launched a new perfume, it’s called “Nude”, and she’s gone naked and blonde for it. http://style.mtv.com/2012/10/08/rihanna-nude-fragrance-image/

The only question I had when I saw that ^^ was as the whole idea of the ad is her nude skin, what colour is “nude”?

I used to remember looking for tights and band-aid plasters and seeing them called colours like “nude” and “skin”, and they were certainly not brown! LOL.

Hmm. I was thinking “nude” represented her being stripped bare. Her true self. Btw, I know what you mean about the tights/band-aids, they were not brown, but pink-toned.
on Tue 23 Oct 2012 at 12:05:35 Bulanik

@ Leigh

Agreed about what “nude” represents.

I feel that when the image-factory churns out example after example of ever-more lightened skin-tones of brown or black people as desirable and most “true”, it seeks to them invisible, and less acceptance.

I was looking at the Sammy Sosa pictures at the top of this thread… he is definitely NUDE on the last picture!! Almost pastel shade, in fact
on Tue 23 Oct 2012 at 12:06:48 Bulanik

Typo correction – it seeks to MAKE them invisible, and less acceptance.
on Tue 23 Oct 2012 at 12:10:20 Jefe

@Leigh, you know I am joking right?
on Tue 23 Oct 2012 at 12:14:45 Bulanik

@ Leigh

I recall once, when I was 7 or 8 years old washing my hands and the white child I was with (about the same age) being astonished that the “dirt” from my brown hands didn’t come off in the wash (lol).
Among adult and sophisticated image-making is another matter. Some old ads:

http://s3.guyism.com/up/2012/03/Pears-Soap.jpg

http://s1.guyism.com/up/2012/03/Chlorinol.jpg
on Tue 23 Oct 2012 at 15:01:46 Jefe

OMG, I used to use Pear’s soap.
on Tue 23 Oct 2012 at 19:02:31 Gen

I loved that soap :/. Christ, this world can be so depressing. Sammy looks ill, I’m surprised no one close to him said something.
on Tue 23 Oct 2012 at 21:38:09 leigh204

@ Jefe:

@Leigh, you know I am joking right?

Of course, silly! lol!
on Tue 23 Oct 2012 at 21:45:53 leigh204

@ Bulanik:

blockquote>@ Leigh

I recall once, when I was 7 or 8 years old washing my hands and the white child I was with (about the same age) being astonished that the “dirt” from my brown hands didn’t come off in the wash (lol).

As a child, I remember one neighbor’s young daughter asked me why I didn’t have white skin like she did. I told her I was born this way. She said, “But you’re brown!” I said, “Yeah…and?”
on Wed 24 Oct 2012 at 22:17:13 Bulanik

Looking ‘clean’ and ‘civilized’ hasn’t changed much:

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7r09ey1Pm1qcuxa4o1_500.jpg