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Are black women ugly or is it racism that makes them seem so?

kmaudelI think black women are beautiful. To a degree that is just a preference of mine that not all men can be expected to share. I understand that and have no trouble with it. But in America it seems to go beyond  just that: people’s racism makes black women seem uglier than they truly are.

It is not just white people either. Many blacks see light skin and long, straight hair as beautiful. What does that say about dark-skinned women with short, natural hair? And what can “You’re pretty for a dark-skinned girl” possibly mean?

Wendi Muse has a great article on Racialicious about how race is different in Brazil than it is in America. She is a light-skinned black American who teaches English in Brazil. Her students keep telling her she is not black – her skin is too light. Shopkeepers seem to agree: in Brazil she is never followed.

Among many other differences she noticed this:

I am pursued romantically and openly considered attractive by people of many different races. …  I cannot say the same with regards to my experience living in the United States.

She looks the same in both countries, yet because in one country she is not seen as “black” she is more desirable to men than she is in the other country where she is seen as black. It is not the woman or her looks that have changed, just her race – and the racism that is applied to her.

See also:

1,211 Responses

  1. on Fri 5 Jun 2009 at 10:42:12 mynameismyname

    You find the greatest pics of beautiful black women! Another score!

    Very interesting angle. Of course, the image of “blackness” drives the distorted and noxious view that renders black women in the Western world as “ugly”. What else would it be?

    Yet, one can play the devil’s advocate and wonder why black men are seen as being so desirable? What do black men have that black women don’t? Why aren’t black men held up to Eurocentric standards of attractiveness in the Western world?

    Also, Wendi’s commentary shows how fluid the social concept of “race” is. In Latin America, racial classifications tend to be driven more by skin shade and phenotype than genealogy.


  2. I ponder this question from time to time as well. I personally find black women to be beautiful. I love their full lips, the soft shape of their nose, their curvy figures, their interesting hair, their silken skin. Pretty much everything about their physiognomy. At this point in life I have been dating and/or married to BW for so long that my attraction is no longer a part of conscious thought. In fact, if I do find myself thinking that the occasional white or Asian or Latino woman seems attractive, that thought feels exotic and unfamiliar. Thus, I am often surprised when I hear a white person (more often a WW than a WM, by the way) comment that (s)he doesn’t find BW to be beautiful or, in some instances, that (s)he thinks BW are ugly (which I rarely hear since most of the white people I know are aware that my wife is black and they are too polite to say that to my face even if they believe it). This seems incomprehensible to me.


  3. abagond,
    Thanks for addressing this very relevant and important topic. As an Afrolatina born and raised in the U.S. I am very familiar with the racial classification “games” that are played in both the U.S. and Latin America. I have seen women from the SAME FAMILY (and racial background)be treated differently in the relationship world based SOLELY on the tone of their skin. The darker or more Black a woman APPEARS to be the more her (brand of Black) beauty is discriminated against in Latin America and the U.S.

    This obvious ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE that attacks the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, AND FEMININTY OF BW is/has negatively affected the quality of BW’s relationship lives for years and it needs to be DESTROYED.

    There is/has NEVER been ANYTHING WRONG with BW’S beauty. What is/has been wrong is the ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE that is/has been practiced in American and Latin American cultures.


  4. on Fri 5 Jun 2009 at 19:29:38 lifeisannoying

    When i go to the country in the caribbean that my family hails from, it’s like my race is invisible, the fact that i’m black isn’t an issue, i’m desirable and sexy and i feel better and i carry myself better.
    Back in england, some men treat me like a leper, i am always sure that i am just as attractive, it’s just the odds are against me in england and in my favour in the caribbean.

    The country my faily is from is part of the English speaking caribbean, 80%plus of the populus is black or black mixed. our minorities are dark skinned mainly as well, east indians, caribs (yes they are still alive), and arabs. And a smattering of white people


  5. on Fri 5 Jun 2009 at 19:35:06 lifeisannoying

    Oh and btw, i think being the majority of the populus helps a great deal. being a minority , it is easier to be marginalised and despised.

    Also you have to remember the weight of history represents a white woman as the ultimate form of femininity, that was done by casting white womanhood as the polar opposite of black womanhood, who was portrayed as sexually incontinent, lascivious, etecetera.

    they were cast as ying and yang, as the white woman was deathly white in complexion and that was the most desirable, then truely the opposite was the deep darkness of the black womans hue and that was to be loathed and disdained.

    phew…. my 2 cents on the constructs of “beauty”


  6. @ lifeisannoying.

    I’ve found the same happens to me also. I feel like royalty in the carribbean..in the Uk its like…nah!


  7. Unfortunately, I believe what the “HUMAN” eye finds ATTractive are Features that are delicate thinner ie. like a slender nose and Things that are symmetrical–the more a person’s face deviates from the symmetry the less attractive they appear. Good example is the Fiona character on Shrek she became ugly when her features became broad.

    Well, many BLAck Women have BROad features no fault of their own, this why BW tend to get nose jobs. From my own exp. I’ve heard I’m “cute to be brown-skinned” comment, maybe because of my facial features.

    This is why I think BLack Beauty has less to do with skin color (ie. light vs. dark) and more to do with facial features. Top models Naomi Campbell, Jessica White & others proves this point.


  8. jodee you are an idoit. slender features like a slender nose and no lips make you look old and prunish and just plain scagg nasty. you are too brainwashed. fiona from shrek might be goodlooking to someone else especially if they werent brainwashed by white supremacy like you. child you need help.


  9. on Sat 6 Jun 2009 at 05:00:51 DaliSalvadorAde

    Jodee, it is that mindset that make black women hate their beautiful features. Its the thought of thin faces, thin noses, straight hair that has permeated (and tainted) our minds.
    It took me YEARS to embrace my beauty; because even though when I look at pictures of when I was younger, I always think I was a very beautiful black girl…but guess what? That wasn’t what I was told. I was told that my skin was too dark, my hair too coarse, my nose too wide, my cheek bones too high…so much trash and rubbish, that I thought myself ugly. I genuinely did; there was a time in my life that I wished I was multiracial just to get away from the jeers and attacks, and your comment reinforces the disgusting things transferred in the minds of young black girls.
    NO GIRL SHOULD be made to feel like she’s ugly, but sadly so many of our little girls feel that way. And trust me, it takes a lot of strength to shake that off, and some women still don’t. I can’t even say that I am completely comfortable in my own skin. But I am learning to love and embrace my beauty, you should help other black sisters do the same thing.


  10. She is right. its the huge noses and gnarly hair thats the big turnoff.


  11. on Sat 6 Jun 2009 at 05:23:55 DaliSalvadorAde

    nohubes…I doubt you need to be recognized. Your comment portrays the kind of person you are very well.


  12. Rihanna has a broad nose and she’s considered very beautiful by men of all races.


  13. nohubes and jodee aka dumb and dumber:
    jodee: the science of beauty has nothing to do with whether your features are broad or narrow. The symmetry of your face is how close you are to phi, period. You can have the widest nose/lips on the face of the earth and as long as the portions on your face are symmetrical, you would be relatively close to phi and still beautiful, so you’re wrong with that. nohubes, you’re an idiot period.


  14. i always struggled with my hair moreso than my skin tone, i fell for the whole “good hair,” nonsense for a while. I always wished I had my dads looser curly hair, which was doted on by everyone. But now after I realized how brainwashed I was, I love my kinky hair and I mean LOVE it. I love the versatility, i love wearing it in braids. I am natural now and I love it. I can do so much with it, some days I wear it in cornrows, some days in twists, twist-outs, some days I just wash-and go or wear an afro. I love pulling on my tight tight kinky hair and looking at teeny-tiny,springy-spiral curl patten. I am amazed at how much I love my natural hair texture never thought it would happen.


  15. also mostly everyone would be relatively close to phi, so if you accept the theory of universal beauty or whatever, then mostly everyone is beautiful. I personally think beauty stems from the inside. You can be gorgeous by society’s standards, but if you’re an asshole, you’re an asshole. Outward beauty fades one day you’re going to be dead and all you’ll be is bones, so at the end of the day what is more important outward or inward beauty?…


  16. in fact, i have a request. Abagond, could you do a post on “Phi/ the science of beauty.” I studied it in high school and we learned about it, but I think it would be an intersting post.


  17. http://goldennumber.net/beauty.htm
    that’s what i’m talking about.


  18. IMO it has nothing to do with black women being unatractive, we are attractive as any other group of women. And I agree with Monica, it does not matter whether someone has “angular” features or not, a person can have broader features and still be considered beautiful, folks seem to forget beauty is subjective. As far as attraction “angular” or broad features aren’t really of interest to me, I’m more concerned about the shape of someones eyes and lips. These are photos of guys im attracted to, though they don’t have much in common physically, but they all have sexy come hither eyes lol and nice lips:
    http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/9977/danielhenny.jpg
    http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/9784/idriselbaf.jpg
    http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/5978/davidbeckhamnc02.jpg
    http://www.lifeinitaly.com/images/img/raoul-bova.jpg
    http://miunex.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/common.jpg
    http://eblog.lt/rnbaddicted/files/2009/02/trey-songz-ar04.jpg

    Also (just as I have unfortunately suspected) negative stereotypes may INDEED play a great in who some people choose to date. Here is an interesting article posted over at siddity’s blog regarding dating.

    http://www.uci.edu/features/2009/04/feature_datingandrace_090421.php


  19. on Sat 6 Jun 2009 at 22:40:26 Truth B. Told

    I don’t think it is racism or looks, I think it is insecurity and hypocrisy. Too many Black women are way too concerned about being on the “pedestal” that they perceive non-Black women are on.

    It is to the point that some Black women are demanding that you kiss their ass. The insecurity has lead them to “bullying” people or to guilting and shaming them into finding them attractive. Other races are allowed to have pretty and ugly women, but Black men are expected to love all Black women whether they look like Halle Berry or Fred Berry.

    If a White man doesn’t want to date them, then they are “ANTI-BW RACISTS or ANTI-BW COWARDS”. If a Black man sees a non-black woman that 99.9% of the human male population sees and he finds her attractive, then it must be because he is brainwashed by Eurocentic standards, a sellout, and uncle tom, confused, etc.

    See the Abagond post on Megan Fox for one example on this blog of the reaction of one man daring to find a non-Black female attractive.

    Probably the biggest problem isn’t that no-one prefers the look of Black women, it is WHO doesn’t prefer the look of Black women. Most men with money tend to prefer women that don’t look like most Black women look. And this is what pissed them off the most.

    The same Black women who would turn down a honest, hardworking plumber or mailman are the same Black women who go into an apoplectic rage when they see a million dollar ballplayer with his blonde girlfriend or wife.

    When they turned down the plumber or mailman, it was “their choice”, but the business executive or doctor or lawyer is suffering from “self-hate” or “colorism” or any other buzzword needed to show the world what victims they are.


  20. on Sat 6 Jun 2009 at 22:50:27 Truth B. Told

    Actually many of the attacks for him posting about Megan Fox occured in other posts, but those people followed Abagond to chastise him for “daring” to write about a White women.


  21. There are beautiful and ugly women in EVERY RACE but given the well documented history of ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE in America, only an IGNORANT, NON-OBSERVANT IDIOT can pretend this has NOTHING to do with why BW are most often perceived as “ugly” in comparison to NON-BW.


  22. on Sun 7 Jun 2009 at 16:57:05 DaliSalvadorAde

    ^(as a response to laromana’s comment)

    Thank you. You summarized my own sentiments and of many other black women very well in your comment. I applaud intelligence and the recognition of the apparent prejudice against black women.


  23. Thought you might be interested in this:
    http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/explosion_of_love#55828

    The ideal of beauty in Gaza means tall and fair-skinned with blue or green eyes and light-colored hair — and that’s what men usually ask for. But most Gaza women have dark hair and bronze skin.

    “If we see a girl that appears to match (a man), but she’s not physically what he wants, I’ll call him and say, ‘Well, she’s pretty, but she’s dark.’ Or ‘she’s short, but she’s white.’ We encourage them to be a bit more realistic,” [matchmaker Nisrin] Khalil said.


  24. on Sun 7 Jun 2009 at 20:36:54 Truth B. Told

    Sure some people think Black women are ugly. They also think that Black men are criminals or that Blondes are dumb, or that Asian men are dorks, or Native Americans are dead and gone or the French are cowardly, and on and on and on.

    Given the documented history of the world, only an ARROGANT, SELF-ENTITLED, HYPOCRITE, with a VICTIM COMPLEX can act like they come from the only group of people that has been marginalized or unfairly labeled.


  25. Wow truth b is saying black women are not worthy of being with a man that is supportive or that has money, u have got to be kidding me.


  26. just ignore truth be told he’s full of shit for the most part


  27. on Sun 7 Jun 2009 at 22:18:17 Truth B. Told

    Not a hater:

    A fine example of the “guilt and shame” tactics I was talking about. No I am not saying that, the men with money who don’t pursue Black women are practically saying that. What I am saying is they have “the right” to do that, just as Black women have “the right” to dismiss men without money.

    Monica:

    A fine example of the “bullying” I am talking about. Nothing to add to the discussion so you have to resort to ad hominem attacks? Also funny the protestations of not having an “attitude” yet some continously greet people who disagree with them with posts like yours.


  28. First of all I’m not ignorant, nor am I an idiot I graduated from a prominent University through studying many things one of the things I have studied was the sci of beauty.

    Unfortunately, the science is slighted towards features that are angular Who has those features usu. Europeans. If this were a different world and BW had those features I would have said it is slanted towards BLack People. It just so happens that BW with more African features are not considered as beautiful by mainstream. I’m speaking reality not my opinion, I on the other hand try to find beauty in everyone.

    Answer this question who do you consider who is more facially attractive LAUREN LONDON or ESTELLE (the young lady who sings American BOy)? I believe both are attractive in their own way. However, go to any black site (ybf) and read the comments on who BLACK people think are attractive its always a certain type of female that people praise as being beautiful. Another question look at who all the so called “rich black men date” HOw do most all of there BW look? Be honest. Also if what I’m saying is not true why has Halle berry Kelley Rowland, Toni Braxton, LIl Kim and others had nose surgery, they all wanted a slender nose how many women you know are trying to get a broader nose. Again I’m not saying this is right I’m telling the truth.

    Overall, I was trying make a point that the science of beauty might play a role in what we think is attractive and unfortunately broad features have to be tolerated. The sci of beauty coupled with racism about how BW are stereotypical man-eaters, evil mean dominant women, and the white women beauty propaganda machine does not help the cause either. It makes BW plight harder..

    Over the years I learned to see beauty in all as a matter of fact I thought the so called “ugly Fiona” was cute too, but what I also noticed was the “ugly” Fiona looked like some BW I’ve seen before– to me its not fair its just the truth.


  29. One MORe POint… MY main argument about Black BEauty is that what PEOple see as beauty may be innate– kind of like a nature vs. nuture argument. And usu. with these type of arguments both nature and nuture play a role.

    I don’t know if its MONICA or ASHA or someone else mentioned “I’M the reason why BW think they are ugly”… not true this stuff has been around way before me. There is enough blame to go around stereotypes, racism, and some Black men don’t help the situation either by getting successful and totally dissing BW.

    Can someone answer this question though why is it that we as BW are so judgmental of our own women (knowing how hard it is to be a BW)?

    For instance, I’ve heard BW say they don’t think Michelle Obama,is pretty, I on the other hand is relieved OUr president has a beautiful brown skinned lady as his wife , Tamika– Usher Raymond’s wife said that she heard more outcrys from Black women about her looks– I’m glad Usher didn’t go for the “typical type” of BW. When Venus and Serena first came on the scene many BW cringed to see them on the tennis court with beads in their hair, and some people said they were ugly.

    Why do we do this to ourselves?


  30. black women are beautiful and we as black women shouldn’t have to let society brainwash us, thinking we’re ugly and not seen as beautiful because we are.

    jodee, i don’t see what science have to do with anything black women not being attractive because i disagree with what you said. there are plenty of white actresses who get fake tans, get their lips injected and basically plastic surgery. i could care less about some science or whatever they try to define what’s beautiful, i know that black women are beautiful whether it’s light or dark.

    as for truth be told, you need some help. not all black women are jealous and envious of other women of races and only reason why some black women do get mad because some black men that date women from a different race put us down, saying they’re better and prettier while we’re ugly and loud, yet you came from a black woman?

    i don’t think it’s right for black women to put down black men too. instead we should be uplifting ourselves and being there for each other and stop all this fighting and hating. at the end of day, black women will never be ugly regardless of what people think.


  31. 0.o

    People find pretty what they find pretty; shouting that their aesthetic tastes are “racist” won’t get you anywhere.

    I do have to wonder– a lot of folks are willing to opine that Russian women are ugly for being too masculine– are they racist, as well?

    (Side note: it’s irrational to bring in social pressures faced by the subject being discussed if you’re honestly trying to find out why someone finds said subject unattractive. As for Mrs. Obama– she’s made some really horrible fashion choices, but she seems like an average enough looking lady of her age range; neither so beautiful as some gush, nor as hideous as some claim. She just needs to find some fashion advisers– since I know they’d freak at letting her choose her own clothes *eyeroll* that are willing to play to her strengths.)


  32. http://justjared.buzznet.com/tags/tameka-raymond/

    Found a picture of Usher’s wife.

    She looks pretty to me– smiles like she means it, healthy-looking, and doesn’t look like those @#$@ sticks that are always on the runways.


  33. on Mon 8 Jun 2009 at 00:08:21 mynameismyname

    Jodee,

    Why must blacks always pit two black women against one another??? Why? And how come blacks don’t do this nearly as much to their men?

    Lauren and Estelle have no business being compared to one another. They’re just on two different sides of the spectrum. Neither one is more “African looking” (by U.S. standards) than the other. Bad comparison IMO.

    Also, many female celebs (regardless of race) get rhinoplasty to appear more photogenic. Many also contour their noses (Tyra). It’s less about “self hate”, I think and more about “presenting an image”.

    Please stop using celebs to justify your valid points. They form a whole ‘nother world than the vast majority of people. They don’t represent you and me.


  34. MNIMN-
    good point; there are visible differences among Asian sub-groups, among European sub-groups, Aramaic and American Indian sub-groups– it is rather silly to act like there’s no sub-groups of the African over-group. (I’m sure I’ve left out some groups– that’s off the top of my head; I’m also sure some folks would group various sub-groups differently. Maybe a Germanic that includes the Celts and Gauls….)


  35. on Mon 8 Jun 2009 at 02:10:02 Truth B. Told

    lil’vina:

    Yet another “guilt and shame” tactic. Just because I don’t share you point of view does not mean that anything is wrong with me or I “need some help”. And I never said all Black women, I was careful to use the word some. And just because Black men’s mother’s are Black do not resolve today’s Black women from their own faults.

    Foxfier:

    Simply put what I was trying to say. All the guilt and shame tactics or bullying tactics are not going to make someone desire someone who they don’t really desire.


  36. truth be told, mine wasn’t guilt and shame tactics. i said what i felt and i disagree with what you said. arguing and the fighting is not going to solve anything.


  37. truth be told is full of shit just ignore him


  38. on Mon 8 Jun 2009 at 05:34:16 Truth B. Told

    Lil’Vina

    You are right, fighting is not going to solve anything.

    Monica

    wants you to ignore me because she fears my message. Another example of some Black women needing to have their asses kissed without asking any questions.

    If something is wrong with my statements, then point it out. Calling me full of fecal matter (twice) and ignoring me is of no value to Abagond’s original question that started this thread nor to my response or anyone who wants to discuss the matter.


  39. Generally, if you think someone is trolling, it’s best to refute their statements– indirectly if possible– and then ignore them.

    If they are a troll, this will drive them insane.

    If they aren’t, they’ll just ignore you, in return.


  40. on Mon 8 Jun 2009 at 10:38:29 lifeisannoying

    this is soooo annoying!! how has this basic conversation allowed to become this inane bitchfeast? I thought this was an adult place where we were going to discuss the social constructs of beauty, much alike the book “beauty Myth” by naomi wolf.

    Instead it’s turned into this hideous rant between truth be told who thinks black women are saphirres who cant’t take the fact that we are ugly,

    well TBT, i recognise that white, asian polyneasian, asian women are beautiful, nobody here disputes the beauty of other women that is not what we are discussing, what we are discussing is why black women are portrayed as ugly, in a analytical way, much alike the way a social psychologist would.

    as for this jodee, good for you!!! lets have a hand for the bish!!! (IDIOT)


  41. Some folks aren’t attracted to black women, sure I get that, BUT its NOT possible to say that even MOST people feel that way (I honestly take what “scientist” say with a grain of salt as far as things like attraction are concerned, there’s no telling how their own biases or opinions influence the outcome of their research). Thats a huge generalization to make. And if its to be said that people don’t find black women to be pretty because of broad features, well we aren’t the only group that have them (SOME east and south asians come to mind) But as I have said few folks can’t speak for everyone people have their own tastes. Also it should be kept in mind that it is possible that person’s environment in which they grew up (as well as many other factors) can be a GREAT influence on their preferences later on in life.


  42. LIA-
    Problem with “beauty as a social construct” is, there are some base lines that are universal:
    vertical symmetry, smooth (not pimply, pock-marked) skin, lustrous hair (another sign of health), most anything that signals “healthy,” what is referred to as “being bright-eyed”, even and white teeth. (again, health)

    The really amusing thing is, my folks are ranchers; all of the things above are also things you’d look for in breeding stock, or in a work animal. You show a horse with healthy, lustrous hair to any group of children, next to a horse whose hair looks dry and unhealthy, and they’ll all say the shiny horse is prettier.

    A possible reason that American (north and south) blacks might be found less attractive on the general average is because there are so relatively few? People do tend to pick out differences better that similarities.


  43. on Mon 8 Jun 2009 at 21:55:15 mynameismyname

    East Asians are a tiny minority in the States yet they aren’t commonly seen as “less attractive” like black females are. So, I’m not sure population has anything to do with it. The connotation of “blackness” does.


  44. Most East Asians also have many more physical similarities to from Spain or Italy than someone who is from Africa.

    I’d also point out that non-teen/early-twenties Asian women, especially if they’ve put on a little weight, *are* stereotyped as being horrifically ugly (and having a nasty personality to boot). I believe “moon faced” and “cross eyed” are not uncommon slams?


  45. on Mon 8 Jun 2009 at 22:38:11 mynameismyname

    LOL, Foxfier.

    “Most East Asians also have many more physical similarities to from Spain or Italy than someone who is from Africa.”

    You obviously know very little about the continent of Africa for you to make that comment. Open some books, look at some National Geographics and learn. You’ll see how ignorant and false your comment was.


  46. on Mon 8 Jun 2009 at 22:45:55 mynameismyname

    Here’s an interesting thread from another website:

    http://www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=26508179&page=0

    Some highlights:

    “Usually black women are not attractive, but if they are only half black, they can be hot. I seriously don’t know an attractive whole black girl in real life”

    “Black women that i actually find attractive are very rare.”

    “I only find half-black women attractive.. I don’t think there’s a such thing as a full-black hot woman”

    “Nope. I feel almost no attraction towards most black women. I imagine it has to do with differences in physiology (I’m white).”

    and, my personal favorite:

    “But really, all races have attractive people. I think overall, blacks aren’t the best looking especially considering that in most areas, they are the least privileged. However, some of them are gorgeous.”

    —-
    Aba; readers, what do we make of a random thread like this? Is it represenative of many people’s true thoughts?


  47. *eyeroll*

    You obviously have no interest in actually having a conversation on why some sections of the US culture do not find arch-typically black women as attractive as those who are more mainstream.

    Would you like to cut quick who of North Africa is more Aramaic than African? Maybe define your terms, if you’d like to go that route?

    If it’s going to be you having your little bitch fest about how racist everyone who has a different taste in women is, count me out.

    However, if you’d like to try to figure out why it might be that, as claimed by the original post, many women of African ancestry are seen as less attractive in proportion to “how black” they are, then I’m wiling to try to figure it out.


  48. its representative of that blogs readers true thoughts.

    Just as abagond will tend to draw a certain type of person..so too will any other blog.

    But it doesnt represent all white mens thoughts just like Abagond and his readers to not represent all black men…or all black women…or what ever.


  49. on Tue 9 Jun 2009 at 00:57:41 Truth B. Told

    lifeisannoying,

    Nowhere did I say that Black women are ugly sapphires. I said that Black women are just like every other race of women, they have their pretties and their uglies, but too many times the uglies play the race card. Not PC to say, but I see it too often.

    The discomfort that I am causing some in this thread is only illustrating my point in how if someone doesn’t find every Black women attractive all the time then they immediately have their motives questioned.


  50. I clicked onto that link and that thread was sooo insulting on so many levels, it wasn’t even funny.

    To Truth b told.
    I read your comments on siditty’s blog and you are nothing but a typical black man.


  51. It’s Gamespot. It attacks trolls like honey attracts flies. (no offense to flies)


  52. Harmony,

    if by typical you mean unwilling to kiss your asses to appease you, then you are right.


  53. Some people appear to be confusing simple appearance/desirabilty with negative &racialized viewpoints of appearance/desirability. This may have something to do with the way the post is worded…conflating and addressing men of African ancestry’s preferences and other non-African descended men’s preferences relative to women of African descent. However the point of this post does not seem to concern the proportion of black women in US society or Africa, “moon faces” or “A** kissing” but whether racist stereotypes of black women make it more difficult for them to be seen as marriage partners. This additional factor (which is what the post seems to be about) of ugly stereotype is not a “pissing fest” over “base lines” and “universal” beauty, but whether someone with “universal” beauty who is a deep brown with non-Anglo & symmetrical features will be seen as non-marriage material based on Anglo-and others’ stereotypes of people/women who are of African descent. As far as black men not appreciating black women’s beauty, I cannot address that because I have not experienced that to a great extent (I mostly read it on the Internet). *As an aside it also seems that the people who would know most about stereotypes affecting desirability are black women who may have an interest in dating men not of African descent, men of African descent (who in these comments do not appear to be confirming the bloggers opinion of black men relative to this post:), and men not of African ancestry who have an interest in black women or who let stereotypes influence their perception of “universal” beauty (only 1 post)


  54. I agree with mynameismyname. Another possibility could be that given the racial atmosphere of this country, and the general anti-black sentiments, I believe it to be possible that the “anything but black attitude” SOME folks hold have as far as associating with blacks, may very well carry over into their dating lives determining who acceptable to date and who is not.


  55. on Tue 9 Jun 2009 at 04:35:44 DaliSalvadorAde

    @ Harmony, the gamespot blog really was ridiculous. Truth B. Told, I really don’t believe that black women try to ridicule people who don’t find us attractive at every opportunity, I just really don’t believe that we’re given the commendation we deserve.

    Open a main-stream magazine and you’ll see what I mean, or look at Maxim magazine’s 100 most beautiful women list? I feel we’re constantly getting put down from the media (and from each other).

    Although I do respect your comments. I believe black women are the most beautiful women out there after learning about my culture and appreciating who I am…if more black women would carry themselves with respect and show that we are intelligent and successful, I think this will change. But that can only start if we get support within our own communities.

    Either way, I love my brown skin. LOL


  56. on Tue 9 Jun 2009 at 05:21:54 Truth B. Told

    Dali,

    On your first point, some women are more secure than others. The reaction by some in this thread only highlighted my point.

    On your second point, I think that is more economics than racism. Other non-White groups are not exactly over-represented for the same reason.

    Also I think that there is a single defined white beauty standard for white women that they all accept, whether they fit it or not. There are millions upon millions of white women who don’t fit that standard, but spend money trying to.

    I think the lack of a single beauty standard for Black women (again the demand of some to find all of them beautiful or else comes into play here) makes it harder for advertisers to market to Black women. No matter what marketers do there is a chance that they will piss off a segment of Black women.


  57. on Tue 9 Jun 2009 at 05:38:40 DaliSalvadorAde

    TBT, true true. ’nuff said.


  58. Asha said

    I agree with mynameismyname. Another possibility could be that given the racial atmosphere of this country, and the general anti-black sentiments, I believe it to be possible that the “anything but black attitude” SOME folks hold have as far as associating with blacks, may very well carry over into their dating lives determining who acceptable to date and who is not.

    This is the problem. I believe that other races have the pretties and uglies but it does seem on a macro view of things, that black women are placed as being generally unattractive. This would explain some dating experiments resulting of black women and Asain men being the bottom of the social totem pole of getting dates. Racial stereotypes are reinforced mostly from the media like commercials, television shows, and films etc. Not just negative but also positive stereotypes. Whatever is positive might work to a certain groups advanatage than others that are negative.

    In this case with black women, they are stereotyped as being unattractive(since American has a standardized beauty) but also not feminine (which America has a standardized personal view of femininity which is intertwined with physical beauty and behavior). If these are reinforced on television every day, than most likely people will believe and promote it. Let’s be honest folks we have certain hidden standards here in America that helps people social interactions and hurt their social interactions. People aren’t some monolithic group but stereotypes are used to oversimplify the world view of things and it has hurt and help people’s social interactions.


  59. truth be told

    Also I think that there is a single defined white beauty standard for white women that they all accept, whether they fit it or not. There are millions upon millions of white women who don’t fit that standard, but spend money trying to.

    That is true. However, white women have more of a diverse image on television that also works to their advantage. Not only that but lets not forget that white people are the dominant group in society so if a white woman might not fit a beauty ideal here in America, her race might help her more if she does not fit the full standard. Black women do not have that advantage.


  60. Here’s an interesting thread from another website:

    http://www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=26508179&page=0

    Some highlights:

    “Usually black women are not attractive, but if they are only half black, they can be hot. I seriously don’t know an attractive whole black girl in real life”

    “Black women that i actually find attractive are very rare.”

    “I only find half-black women attractive.. I don’t think there’s a such thing as a full-black hot woman”

    “Nope. I feel almost no attraction towards most black women. I imagine it has to do with differences in physiology (I’m white).”

    and, my personal favorite:

    “But really, all races have attractive people. I think overall, blacks aren’t the best looking especially considering that in most areas, they are the least privileged. However, some of them are gorgeous.”

    ABA ASKED IN RESPONSE TO COMMENTS ABOVE:
    Aba; readers, what do we make of a random thread like this? Is it represenative of many people’s true thoughts?

    laromana said,

    mynameismyname,
    This is exactly the type of classic ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE that has been at the heart of the negative images of BW in American culture for years. No other race of women in America, but BW, have had to deal with this garbage.

    It’s precisely this type of ANTI-BW MADNESS, that attacks the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, AND FEMININITY of BW, that needs to be DESTROYED once and for all.


  61. ” her race might help her more if she does not fit the full standard”

    not true – the people who helped me find my beauty as a dark haired, brown eyed white girl with to large a butt and to large everything else…was 2 black women and 1 latin women and honestly the attention I get from black and latin men…I always felt unattractive and hated how I look. Even when I had a perfect hour glass shape in highschool…my boyfriend and our group of friends called me “Slim” = because your not OHHHHHH…Young white girls start exhibiting eating disorders and hating how they look just as early as other races I think.

    I wonder if you did the barbie doll test…but instead of a blonde barbie and a black one you took a blonde barbie and a brown haired brown eyed one if the results would be similar.

    My taller, blonde sister always got more attention than me..i was the one with the mousey brown hair and mousey brown eyes.

    i dyed my hair blonde in highschool trying to be something I wasnt. I did cheer leading trying to be something I wasnt. it was not until my 30s…surrounded by strong minority women that I found my voice. this culture does NOT uplift its women that dont confirm to its standard of beauty.


  62. Dedabets said:

    not true – the people who helped me find my beauty as a dark haired, brown eyed white girl with to large a butt and to large everything else…was 2 black women and 1 latin women and honestly the attention I get from black and latin men…I always felt unattractive and hated how I look. Even when I had a perfect hour glass shape in highschool…my boyfriend and our group of friends called me “Slim” = because your not OHHHHHH…Young white girls start exhibiting eating disorders and hating how they look just as early as other races I think.

    That’s not what I meant. I said that even if you did not fit the full standard, you race meaning you as a white woman might have helped you get some acception from others. My friend who is white grew up poor and she feels that is the reason why didn’t get much acception and attention from white men, however, her race helped her gain some acception and attention from other minority men. She admits this to me. Which your comment supports what I said lol. So even if you are big everything else and white men from your personal experiences didn’t like you and you felt unattractive, you still had acception from others and your race as a white woman might have helped it.


  63. I wonder if you did the barbie doll test…but instead of a blonde barbie and a black one you took a blonde barbie and a brown haired brown eyed one if the results would be similar.

    I’m very much aware of the discrimination that white women get according to beauty ideals, however, I would’ve chose both. I personally do not believe that hair color makes someone more attractive than the other. Your story reminds me of my friend who had a white female roommate, and my friend told me that the girl kept saying that this girl on facebook was beautiful because she was blonde. Hair color and eyes seems to be beauty of perfection amongst whites, however, amongst minority it’s more complex and the most complex is black women because their phenotypes are so diverse. Which is why people nit pick at their beauty. Why I do agree that the dominant culture does not uplift white women as a whole, keep in mind that you being white alone comes with more advantages than other minority women and you getting attention by black men and latino men is one of the advantages despite you not having any attention from white men lol.


  64. Jodee, are you serious? I really think you need to re-read what you wrote because it makes no sense. Its thinking like yours that just kills me. Not only was your little rant stupid, but incredibly ignorant and full of ridiculous assumptions. And the fact that you tried to explain it a little more didn’t help.


  65. on Wed 10 Jun 2009 at 01:07:36 mynameismyname

    Right, Dani.

    White women, no matter how they look or their own socio-economic status, still can can piggyback off of white privilege. Hence, why Dedabets while less desirable than her blonde sister in the eyes of white males, gets attention from non-white men. Her whitness means something to them, no matter what she looks like. Black women don’t have that option.


  66. on Wed 10 Jun 2009 at 01:09:58 mynameismyname

    Yeah, those Gamespot posts were disgusting. I’ve actually stumbled across similar topics on some other mostly-white message boards. The comments were just as despicable. I’m curious of Abagond’s reaction to the specific thread that I posted.


  67. “no matter what she looks like” i am not sure how to respond to that?


  68. on Wed 10 Jun 2009 at 03:10:59 Truth B. Told

    Dani,

    I am not sure I agree. Remember that Whites heavily outnumber Black and Latinos in this country. Black men and Latino men have a smaller pool of women to draw from. To ignore White women would be to ignore about 70% of the female population, which is not a good strategy for a guy trying to score. White men can afford to stick to White women only and still have a large pool. If I went to China, chances are I will need to hook up with a Chinese girl, not because I have “yellow fever” or I believe that Chinese women are better, but it makes more sense than to limit myself to the few Black women in China.

    Also too many Black women and Latina women are overweight, so in many instances Black men and Latin men have been accustomed to going after larger women.


  69. on Wed 10 Jun 2009 at 03:24:02 Truth B. Told

    Also your statement promotes the tired stereotype that non-White men only can access the “undesirables” among white women and White men get nothing but slim models. I have seen non-White men with both busted up White women and women that every man wishes he could get with. I have also seen quite of few White men with girlfriends and wives that look like they should be on some NFL teams offensive line.


  70. on Wed 10 Jun 2009 at 10:08:18 mynameismyname

    At last count, non-Hispanic whites made up 66% of the US population. They currently make up less than that. As proven by the results of the presidental election, America is no longer overwhelmingly white.

    Also, please note that the vast majority of black men, in particular, date and marry “their own”. Interracial romance involving blacks is the lowest of all the races, by far. Latino/Hispanic doesn’t describe race so we can’t even get a clear picture of that.

    I’m around a large number of black woman all the time. Among this large group, there’s a deep variety in sizes. Some rail thin, some slim, some “average”, some “thick”, some heavy, some really heavy. It’s all over the place, so I don’t know where you get the idea that the general black women is so heavy in a way that the general white woman isn’t.


  71. on Wed 10 Jun 2009 at 12:09:47 lifeisannoying

    In answer to TBT. the saphirre reference that i used was in relation to your assertion in comment 23 that black women bully and guilt men who do not find them attractive, or in a following statement that black women had attacked abagond for liking megan fox ( who i agree is a total fox ), you seem to think all black women are desperate and attention seeking, here’s the truth, we are women like all other kinds.

    we have the beautiful and ugly, and your animosity is mean. because i as far as i remember a hoard of black women did not descend on abagond like a bloodythirsty lynchmob demanding he withdraw his admission that he found megan fox attractive.

    nor as far as i remember has any black woman pillouried any man for expressing an honest opinion, spiteful ones are a different matter!


  72. on Wed 10 Jun 2009 at 13:30:41 Truth B. Told

    Mynameis

    66 is not that far away from 70, you are splitting hairs.

    And obesity is a problem for all groups of Americans, but like most social maladies, they impact Blacks unequally.

    Lifeisanoying

    You are putting the word ALL in my mouth when I have been careful to use the word some. Perhaps your attempt to discredit my honest opinion. And I do remember a some women chiding Abagond, but there were some that came to his defense.


  73. on Wed 10 Jun 2009 at 13:37:01 Truth B. Told

    Oh and if most Black men date and marry intraracial, does that not contradict this statement

    White women, no matter how they look or their own socio-economic status, still can can piggyback off of white privilege. Hence, why Dedabets while less desirable than her blonde sister in the eyes of white males, gets attention from non-white men. Her whitness means something to them, no matter what she looks like. Black women don’t have that option.

    How can something be an advantage yet rarely happen at the same time?


  74. on Wed 10 Jun 2009 at 18:53:13 lifeisannoying

    ok, here is a rarity, i call a truce here’s my white flag to TBT


  75. its my race that attracts non white men…and not my hourglass shape, full bosum and full backside? Geez there goes all my self confidence…


  76. In the case of Dedabets, race may have played some part but, based on what I can remember from her comments in the past, I think 80% of it was her figure – it was just the kind that would drive away most white men and draw in most black and Latino men: an hourglass figure that was not at all thin.


  77. Attack the argument, not the person. Even idiots are right some of the time.


  78. Some commenters did give me a hard time for liking Megan Fox, but not most, not even most commenters who seem to be black women.


  79. Some of the opinions on Gamespot that Mynameismyname listed:

    “Usually black women are not attractive, but if they are only half black, they can be hot. I seriously don’t know an attractive whole black girl in real life”

    “Black women that i actually find attractive are very rare.”

    “I only find half-black women attractive.. I don’t think there’s a such thing as a full-black hot woman”

    It is hard to tell how common these opinions are, but they do seem to be honest in so far as they go and not just a case of trolls trying to cause trouble.


  80. on Wed 10 Jun 2009 at 22:17:35 mynameismyname

    TBT,

    Please. Don’t try to twist around what people are saying. You’re entitled to your opinion but don’t attack others for voicing theirs.

    In response to how “white” America is. The country is no longer overwhelmingly white. And that 66% figure from 9 years ago is undoubtedly lower now.

    When Debabets talked about non-white men being attracted to her figure, she was talking about a FEW. Damn sure not the majority. Which validates the statistics.

    And again, black women come in a wide array of sizes. What’s “overweight” to a white male may be “average” in reality. To be quite honest, the majority of white American I see aren’t exactly a size 2 but I don’t think that they need to be.


  81. on Wed 10 Jun 2009 at 22:33:01 Truth B. Told

    Lifeisannoying

    No need for a truce, I did not think we were at war. I like this blog because people have always been free to express their opinions whether they agree or disagree. I am not trying to be spiteful, just give my honest opinion.


  82. on Wed 10 Jun 2009 at 22:35:50 Truth B. Told

    Mynameis..

    I don’t think I have attacked anyone in this thread nor have I tried to impede anyone’s opinion. Can’t say the same courtesy has been extended to me by some in this thread.


  83. Dedabets said:

    its my race that attracts non white men…and not my hourglass shape, full bosum and full backside? Geez there goes all my self confidence…

    hahaah no no Deds lol. I think your race might have helped but I don’t think that was all there is to your attraction. Some minority men (particularly black and latino men) do like the hourglass figure more but because you are white with an hourglass might’ve sent them to heaven and to them seem exoctic I guess. You think that hurts you feelings. Please… me as a black chick reading those comments from gamespot should hurt my feelings. It doesn’t stop there at that forum. I’ve read a couple of forums where they had threads about beautiful women and not one listed black women. So to be seen as not attractive across the board should hurt. Hell it got so bad one non-black person felt bad that no one listed black women as beautiful so they had to create a thread on beautiful black women. Most of those comments still came off like the comments on gamespot. It doesn’t hurt me at all though because well maybe I expected some people to say those ignorant things about black women’s beauty. That’s why Abagond creates post about black women’s beauty because he and I and many people know that black women’s beauty is so diverse but people tend to nit pick at our complex beauty and sometimes make disparaging remarks about it. Don’t believe me? Go to Ryan Leslie’s video “Addiction” and read the comments they made about the black models. Down right digusting. People attack what they don’t know. Although I don’t get highly upset but I do raise awareness on how black women’s beauty is devalued and not widely recognized for our diversity.


  84. Truth B Told said:

    I don’t think it is racism or looks, I think it is insecurity and hypocrisy. Too many Black women are way too concerned about being on the “pedestal” that they perceive non-Black women are on.

    This post IS about racism and looks, not about the pedestal mongering and insecurities of black women.


  85. on Wed 10 Jun 2009 at 22:58:32 Truth B. Told

    Dedabets,

    from what I have read on this Blog, you also seem to have a positive outlook on life, which along with a nice busom and backside is also very attractive to some men.


  86. Truth B Told said:

    I don’t think I have attacked anyone in this thread nor have I tried to impede anyone’s opinion. Can’t say the same courtesy has been extended to me by some in this thread.

    Well, you did not call anyone names as far as I can remember, but you did start out by bashing SOME black women, which, not surprisingly, led some to call you names.


  87. on Wed 10 Jun 2009 at 23:09:01 Truth B. Told

    Abagond,

    With all due respect, it is not polite to ask a question and then tell people how to answer it.

    You asked are Black women ugly or is it racism that makes it seems so. My answer was that it is neither looks nor racism. Then I told you what I thought it was (insecurity and hypocrisy). I think it is the insecurity that causes some Black women to look for scapegoats like racism and colorism to hide behind.

    If my commentary is not welcome, then I will keep it to myself, but I will not change my opinion to appease anyone.


  88. Sorry, I was not getting how your answer connected to the question.


  89. on Wed 10 Jun 2009 at 23:14:51 Truth B. Told

    I gave an unpopular opinion, I don’t think that I bashed anyone.

    Like when I said everyone has stereotypes attached to them (Black men = criminal, Jews = Cheap, etc)

    Doesn’t mean I am bashing Black men or Jews or that I actually believe the stereotypes myself, I am just stating the stereotypes.


  90. on Wed 10 Jun 2009 at 23:39:48 mynameismyname

    I think Dani’s comment characterizes the attitude that I see in black women in my everyday life.

    You can’t tell the majority of the black women that I know or observe that they’re not fine! No matter their size, their face, their hair or the level of brownness of their pigementation.

    After reading this blog and exploring these topics, I’ve come to realize that the supreme confidence that can be found in black women comes partly as a way to love themselves in a nation that tells them that they are inherently less than. If you don’t love yourself, who will?


  91. Dani – I was teasing somewhat. As a WW you might wonder why i read this blog. My niece and nephew are part black. My Niece is amazingly beautiful. I want her to love and embrace her black roots and the black women in her life as much as her her white roots. Its why I read this blog and strive to understand a POV that – by simply being myself – i couldnt understand. She does have blonde dolls. She also has black dolls (her mother is a gorgeous tall blonde womens whose shadow i have lived in all my life). Oddly enough – she doesnt have any curvy brown haired dolls like her auntie. But each time she draws a tiny butterfly on her so she has a tattoo like auntie I rejoice (as much as it causes my sister to completely freak out). She is lucky i think. She has beautiful, proud black women in her life, beatiful proud brunette women in her life, beautiful hispanic women and a beatiful smart powerful blonde mother (whose a kick ass cop) in her life. I wanted BW POV to help me be a mentor to her – and my nephew…I am not a BW – but I am very open to learning from them.


  92. Dedabets,

    After observing your comments from this and several other threads, it’s clear that you are proud of your hourglass – full busom and backside – figure. You let us know that all too well.lol

    It seems that your sister has maybe caused you to be a little insecure about your appearance, so you found your niche – black and latino men. I’m glad that they find you so attractive. I think Dani and mynameismyname are right. I think white women have more leeway in their appearance than other women. When you’re black, you have to be 1.99% short of perfection to be considered attractive or pretty. In this area, black men go after white women just because they are white. You will see white women with decayed teeth and other things (I don’t want to put these women down so I won’t mention the other things). And black men still treat them like a prize.

    It’s like everything else. When you are black, you have to work that much harder and be that much better just to be given a chance. These are things that your neice may have to deal with.

    I’m just wondering why you always make it a point to “point out” how many black and latino guys are attracted to you and your hourglass figure on posts and blogs where black women have issue with being looked down upon.

    You think Dani hurt your feelings? Like she said, “please thats nothing”. Try going on gamesport and seeing all the derogatory things about your type. Or on a day when you’re feeling “extra cute” and someone white tells you that you look like someone who is not attractive at all just because you two share the same ethnicity. All black people look alike. That would be a good blog actually.

    You seem like a well meaning and sincere person, but something about that irritates me.


  93. To IslandGirl:

    Re: Dedabets

    It seems that your sister has maybe caused you to be a little insecure about your appearance, so you found your niche – black and latino men

    If I recall correctly she is married to a white guy.

    it’s clear that you are proud of your hourglass – full busom and backside – figure. You let us know that all too well.lol

    That’s your interpretation.. I get the impression she is accepting of her figure.. not proud of it. “Full busom and backside” in some people’s eyes (more common with whites than with blacks or Latinos…) = fat.


  94. Just because she is married to a white man doesn’t mean that she doesn’t enjoy the ego boost that black and latino men provide. Since she was always compared to her sister, maybe these men give her the approval she needs.

    “That’s your interpretation.. I get the impression she is accepting of her figure.. not proud of it. “Full busom and backside” in some people’s eyes (more common with whites than with blacks or Latinos…) = fat.”

    Well, when you are posting on a site that celebrates curves and you’re continually saying that you are what is celebrated, I see it as being proud of your figure.


  95. Regardless of the self serving practice of scapegoating BW and their so called “problems”, it is the INSECURITY AND HYPOCRISY OF MANY SELF HATING DBR BM that is behind their long standing practice of attacking the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, AND BEAUTY/FEMININITY OF BW.

    This is why you see so MANY of these SELF HATING DBR BM praising NON-BW, solely because they’re not Black, while trashing the women that most resemble their mothers, grandmothers, and sisters. You’d be hard pressed to find ANY OTHER race of men (like these SELF HATING DBR BM) who ONLY elevate/praise the beauty of women OUTSIDE their race while completely putting down/degrading/demeaning the beauty of women of THEIR OWN RACE.

    No other race of men is so invested in trashing the women that most resemble their mothers, grandmothers, and sisters. This practice has NOTHING to do with BW’s problems but EVERYTHING to do with


  96. The question = Are black women ugly or is it racism that makes them seem so?

    My answer = IT’S RACISM DUH!!! Black women are beautiful. Everyone is beautiful.


  97. Amen Therese!!! EVERYONE IS BEAUTIFUL!!


  98. Therese – well answered…
    This post is abagond asking a question we all know the answer to.

    There are ugly women and beautiful women…and one person goddess may be anothers troll…but

    I believe abagonds post was in response to other posts comments where obviously they are dumb racists.

    Its along the lines of when my preacher asks “should we sin so that grace my abound” we all know the answer.

    The answer is NO – black women are not ugly simply because they are black! And people who believe so are narrow mind, hate mongers and bring nothing to society.

    Island girl – I would never try and take away the truth of racism – or the things Black people have to over come. But…for as many hate mongering sites there are for black women and threads like gamespot…there are just as many for women like myself “Try going on gamesport and seeing all the derogatory things about your type” I found this out when out of curiosity I googled bikini+thick women…my girlfriends said they would pay for my room in vegas if I wore a bikini. I have not worn one in over 11 years. For all my self promiting done on this site…it really steams from insecurity and an effort to believe what I say. My girlfriends want me to show off my tattoos which in truth are the only real parts of my body I like…but I digress. I googled those two words and found a whole slew of sites bashing any women who is basicallly larger than a size 6 who wears a two piece. Cow, pig, nasty, disgusting, lard ass…all words used to describe women my size.

    This world is evil and filled with sin. If we look hard enough. We will always find someone willing to hate us…for a multitude of reasons. Racism is one of the few that has been encouraged and supported by our governement and is therefore a larger problem.

    if I am a bit too vocal about my appearance its because i am trying to convince myself i guess. I did a whole post of my self imagine vs. imagine self on my blog. its something most women…regardless of race…struggle with.


  99. “In this area, black men go after white women just because they are white. You will see white women with decayed teeth and other things (I don’t want to put these women down so I won’t mention the other things). And black men still treat them like a prize.”

    I have seen this – i dont get it. Part of me would like to think that they seen beauty in that women…we dont know her. But the other part of me is pretty sure he is with her just because she is white. And that is sad. Sad that our nations racism impacts that man so deeply. Sad for the women because that makes her a trophy, not a person, to him. And like all trophies, eventually his eyes will fix on the next prize. Sad for their children (if any) who not only have to figure out who they are as mixed children, but are the results of screwed up racial dynamics and not two loving parents. it just sucks all the way around


  100. on Thu 11 Jun 2009 at 14:12:01 Shamika-Samantha

    As a little girl, I must say I was insecure with myself. Cause I am a dark skin black Female. But the first time I actually got confident and felt sexy about my self was when a puerto Rican guy said to me “blacker the berry the sweeter the juice.” But a lot of times in Black Culture, if you are light-skin or just a lighter shade, you can have short hair, long hair, wear a weave, be thin, or thick you still are pretty everything else doesn’t matter because you are light skin which qualify as pretty black woman. But if the tables are turn and you are of a darker skin tone, a lot of woman would get y are “pretty for a dark skin girl”. And happy that i never heard that in my life. But because I am thin figure woman, at times (not a lot) I do feel less pretty or less of a black woman, but of the criticism i get from my own family which is caribbean. But at the end of the day I am happy and confident wit myself. At it really all comes do to confidences. A woman most have confidences. And i’ve date spanish guys and black. I work on 5 ave new york, and a lot of times I have white, brazilian, and many different European man approach me, wanting to date me. So many of my boyfriends have been light skin, and right now my boyfriend is a light skin jamaican. And he use to dating thick girls. But because of who i am he loves me, and adores my body. IT ALL BOUT HOW U HOLD YOURSELF, DONT THINK YOU’RE LESS PRETTY THAT A BEYONCE, OR LAUREN LONDON GIRL BECAUSE YOU’RE AN NAOMI CAMPBELL, OR FOXY BROWM (THE RAPPER) GIRL.


  101. on Thu 11 Jun 2009 at 14:36:12 Shamika-Samantha

    I was read a comment when somebody said estelle and lauren london is not in the same doesn’t represent majority of the black people. that the problem with society is that people put celebrities on this platform as if the gods, as if the are not regular black human beings. or the different is that they used the gift to be known in the world. so may question is if estelle could not sing and and lauren could not act wouldn’t she still be a minority. who she still be could a consider a black woman, who can represent the majority of black people. please, just because they have money and the are doing cosmetic surgery, doesn’t mean that are better and do not represent black people. cause if plenty of unknown black woman light brown and chocolate that are getting nose jobs, breast implants, butt implants butt injection. so saying it just racism is a load of crap. it does have to do with self image, and how people feel about themselves. cause if every black person was so damn confident in them self, black woman would not be the #1 buyer in hair products, the wouldn’t be so much make-up that out there especially ones that cater to black woman. if black woman was so confident in themselves. get it right it has to do with racism, self image and how black woman feel about themselves.


  102. Dedabets, I respect your answer. This is what a lot of women struggle with whether you are a thin supermodel who people tear down out of envy. Or an hourglass woman who people tear down for various reasons.

    Society is more harder on some than others, but it’s still a struggle none the less.


  103. on Fri 12 Jun 2009 at 01:35:16 mynameismyname

    Shamika,

    I believe you were referring to my comments. I think that you misread what I typed. I never ever said anything about the two black female celebs (Estelle and Lauren London) not being represenative. I just reread my comment and again, that was never said.

    Another commentator threw the both of them against one of another. I remarked that it was a stupid comparison to make. Neither of those women have anything in common aside from “race”. (one’s from the UK, the other from the US; one’s a singer, the other is an actress; etc.).

    I remarked that neither of them look any less African than the other. That’s what I said. Anything else is conjuncture on your part. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

    Also, black women in the US generally have a higher self esteem regarding their beauty than white women do. There’s been several studies that have gave evidence to this. If every black women were to mope around feeling sorry for herself because an anti-black environment deems her “ugly”, they’d be some sad, lonely creatures. I think the majority of black women learn to love themselves even tighter. Hey, you’d never know that by reading comments on the internet. But, I swear to you, it’s true.


  104. shamika, i like the fact that you appreciate the body that you’re in. i’m a thin girl myself and i felt insecure about it because i didn’t think it was beautiful. now i like what i have and black women are beautiful no matter what. it’s just sad that we live in a world that black women are still looked at as being ghetto, rude, just all the negative stereotypes about us. no matter how much you try to do good there always going to be ignorant racist people thinking that black women are worth nothing. but i’m not going let society define me who i am as a black woman.


  105. on Fri 12 Jun 2009 at 03:13:41 Truth B. Told

    You will see white women with decayed teeth and other things (I don’t want to put these women down so I won’t mention the other things). And black men still treat them like a prize.

    I have seen Black men with busted up Black women and White men with busted up White women, but few questions the motives of those men.


  106. on Fri 12 Jun 2009 at 03:26:06 Truth B. Told

    Or restated another way, when a Black man dates a busted up Black woman he is “enlightend” or “mature enough to be willing to look past superficiality”. But when he dates a busted up White woman he is a self-hating, momma hating, white skin loving fool.

    Guilt and shame tactic anyone?


  107. i wish Truth b told would go away and stop spreading his hatred everywhere


  108. and change his name from truth be told to truth will not be told or something


  109. LOL!! lily you crazy for that.


  110. I was going to respond to truth b told, but it’s just best to ignore people like that. Obviously he’s not here for enlightenment or even intelligent debate.

    He just wants to antagonize.


  111. on Fri 12 Jun 2009 at 04:11:13 Truth B. Told

    Obviously he’s not here for enlightenment or even intelligent debate.

    I am not the one making ad hominem attacks. Instead of addressing what I said, someone choose to mock my non de plume and wish me away. You call that intelligent debate?

    In fact I think I am making very good points. Maybe you are only antagonized by the stinging truth that my message exposes.


  112. TBT – you make a good point…beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

    It is the line of the face – or the warmth of the smile. Is it in the shape or sway of the hips, or the confidence that moves them. Is it a perfect figure that makes the man feel like a man for having her, or is it the women – who with a laugh, or kind words or a gentle spirit…or half a million other things, that makes a man feel strong and manly.

    Unfortunately when you add race to the mix, that is all anyone can see (including myself I admit). I would never question a BM with a BW who perhaps is not culturally beautiful…likewise with an WM and WW etc. I remember attending a wedding with a WM and an Asian Women and she was ummm less physically blessed then alot of people. And my assumption was that was all he could get or…he wanted an asian wife to keep house and cook etc. (culturally more likely to be submissive)…both racist thoughts. I realized it and was upset with myself. When you have IR relationships, it becomes very hard to get beyound for many people.

    abagond = been meaning to add to bottom of this post that the women pictured above is gorgeous btw…WOW


  113. If someone REALLY thinks that you are hideous beyoned imagination like white men always seems to specify so hard that black women pocess this quality. I have never known anything that I did to the white race except be born black for their whole world to revoulve around my color. Racism is from the devil. It is sick demonic and dark.This is proof of how it makes people hate to the point of insanity. I think that the moment white people are born they are born hating their pigment and build a society to relentlessly make them feel good about themselves instead of dealing with their problems by dealing with it on a healthy basis through psycho therapy. I feel that these people have given themselves to the ultimate evil, that they will one day be not able to reproduce one another. Then all forms of evil will cease and there will be peace on earth and God will once again walk this wonderful garden he calls earth.


  114. i hear this one way too much, and i can assure you, most of it is racist hypocrisy. black women of course are not all “beautiful”, it would depend on the woman, but they are no less attractive than any other woman. why would they be. i was born and raised in the deep south, and i am an attractive brownskinned black woman, when i started going to a mixed school, there were white boys who were equally attracted to me as the black ones, but of course they could not admit this. i even had those same white boys who hit on me and try to “flirt” in the same breath demean blackness. it’s a bunch of hypocrisy, many of these same men who would go on about our attitudes and how we “just aren’t pretty” would sleep with you at the drop of a dime. I remember one particularly racist white athletic coach who had a habit of calling blacks “negros” but guess what, he sure did try and hit on and touch on teen black girls! he was eventually found. its like w hite people ( generally) are intrigued and disgusted by blackness at the same time, they recognize that black women are not all ugly, foul and loud mouthed, somehow “lesser than” but they cannot and will not admit this, it would be hypocrisy to their ignorant beliefs. do you think all those white men who raped and violated black women and children during slavery found them hideous too? i bet you they didn’t. White beauty is to be upheld and emulated in this society, to acknowledge black and african beauty is a big no/ no, im not saying white women are any less than, but they will be protected and guarded by men of this society, white and very often black too. the black woman on the other hand, well she’s on her own in this regard. thankfully things are changing, too slowly of course,b ut thank God they are changing. It’s not even so much about being considered ” just as pretty as” the other women, (asian/white/latina) its about being seen as a human being.


  115. Elyse,
    My life experience in America matches yours when it comes to how MOST WM have treated me/my sisters. ANTI-BW RACISM/COWARDICE is definitely the reason that MOST WM in America are afraid to OPENLY acknowledge the beauty of BW or show attraction to them. Their attitudes/actions have NOTHING to do with BW being “ugly” because there are beautiful BW just as there are beautiful women of every race.

    Most of these WM then turn around and use ANTI-BW LIES, MYTHS, and STEREOTYPES to justify the ANTI-BW RACISM in the culture.

    Thankfully, things are beginning to change as SOME WM reject this IRRATIONAL, RACIST, ANTI-BW mindset and learn to respect the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, AND FEMININITY of BW and pursue dating and/or marriage relationships with them.


  116. on Sun 19 Jul 2009 at 23:42:56 Straight Shooter

    Not being black myself, I can only guess that black men find black women attractive.
    From a white male perspective, it is considered a downgrade and disgace to be seen with a black woman. No I don’t find them attractive on any level. I would consider this the ultimate form of humiliation. There is nothing honerable about it. Those who say otherwise are not telling the truth. I keep hearing this talk about white men being cowards for not wanting black women. Incorrect, we are avoiding you! As for these stories of white slave owners who raped black women back in the days before any of my ancestors even came to this country; all I can say is that those slave owners were very sick individuals. I am very glad I’m not related to any of them.


  117. @ Crooked shooter

    It’s a good thing there are men who do not think like you.


  118. Just because ANTI-BW RACIST/HATERS believe LIES, MYTHS, and STEREORTYPES about BW doesn’t make them TRUE.

    Historically, it WASN’T BW who sought out WM but rather WM who commited heinous crimes against them and invented LIES to cover up/justify their DISGUSTING ACTS.

    No one here needs ANTI-BW RACIST WM to validate the fact that there are beautiful BW (as there are beautiful women in EVERY race). ALL men (and everyone) who AREN’T ANTI-BW RACIST/HATERS know this and have NO PROBLEM acknowledging this FACT.

    Only IRRATIONAL, ANTI-BW RACIST/HATER IDIOTS think otherwise.


  119. Straight Shooter: What percentage of white men do you think feel the same way you do?


  120. Kayla personal attacks are so juvenille…what didn’t make sense to you??? nevermind don’t answer…And mynameismyname I used celebs in my comment only because people tend to know what they look like universally… Agabond uses celebrity women all of the time to show his type or his preference for beauty. It’s easier to use celebs for this reason and you’re right many of them had surgery or been photoshopped I get that…


  121. dani I agree with most of your comments and also we must not forget how BW have been “masculinized” worldwide in media, print, etc., since slavery which doesn’t help with our beauty quotient.


  122. Crooked shooter… your kind were the main ones raping BW on those plantations…btw if you knew anything about DNA you will find out you more than likley have some black ancestors jus like Black Americans have caucasian blood in them–were all mixed up mainly due to rape on those plantations.


  123. ***I want to clarify some black americans***


  124. on Sat 15 Aug 2009 at 17:21:05 cardel Turner

    Black women ugly?

    I am a afircan american male and I do admit I like dating white women and other non black women, but do I think black women are ugly? No.I don’t like some of the attitudes that black women carry.For some reason I can talk to a white woman and get a decent conversation when I try to talk to a black woman they think I am crazy or some stuff like that.If black women can just stop being so judgemental they be ok.


  125. hey erm i am an “light skin” black girl and i live in london, london is the most diverse place ever cultures mix like crazy and i feel so comfortable here, also my stepdad is white, i know this might sound rude but i think black features are unattractive wide noses and huge lips, the reason the lips are ugly is because they stick out and hang off the face and the shape of hem are unattractie unlike angelina jolies beautifully shaped lips and our noses just grow across are fACE in an unattractive shape while are eyes are usually pretty but not big enough and are a boring dark brown now im gonna go real controversial here, those features i jst said are ugly and i think we were cursed with these unattractive features. we are cursed with ugliness


  126. cardel Turner Says:
    Black women ugly?
    I am a afircan american male and I do admit I like dating white women and other non black women, but do I think black women are ugly? No.I don’t like some of the attitudes that black women carry.For some reason I can talk to a white woman and get a decent conversation when I try to talk to a black woman they think I am crazy or some stuff like that.If black women can just stop being so judgemental they be ok.

    laromana says,
    Women of ALL RACES can have attitude problems. GENERALIZING a NEGATIVE TRAIT to ALL BW (and ONLY BW) is RACIST. Stop promoting ANTI-BW LIES, MYTHS, and STEREOTYPES.


  127. kiki says,
    i know this might sound rude but i think black features are unattractive wide noses and huge lips, the reason the lips are ugly is because they stick out and hang off the face and the shape of hem are unattractie unlike angelina jolies beautifully shaped lips and our noses just grow across are fACE in an unattractive shape while are eyes are usually pretty but not big enough and are a boring dark brown now im gonna go real controversial here, those features i jst said are ugly and i think we were cursed with these unattractive features. we are cursed with ugliness

    laromana says,
    Your comments aren’t just RUDE, they’re also RACIST and ANTI-BLACK.

    Blacks with “WHITE” features are NO BETTER/MORE BEAUTIFUL than Blacks with “BLACK” features. You really need to STOP believing/promoting ANTI-BLACK LIES, MYTHS, and STEREOTYPES.


  128. on Wed 19 Aug 2009 at 22:26:23 mynameismyname

    Many whites have broad noses. As do many East and Southeast Asians as well as Pacific Islanders.

    Big lips are a human trait belonging to members of any ethnicity.

    Are they “ugly” only when they appear on a black individual but not for any race even though these features also belong to other races?


  129. Myname,
    Thanks you for speaking my mind.

    Sometimes I wonder if some post this by provocation only or do they really think that?


  130. Kiki:

    How do your own eyes, lips and nose fall on your scale of beauty?


  131. Jodee,

    Symmetry is beauty, but you’ve got it wrong. It’s not that broad features are not or cannot be symmetrical, because they can. Just like thin/delicate features can lack symmetry. Many non-black people get nose jobs because their noses are out of proportion to the rest of their features.

    Broad features in proportion can be very beautiful. Just look at the picture on this thread of the lovely black model. I also submit Garcelle Beauvais. She is gorgeous and has broad features! By contrast Sarah Jessica Parker, with her long face, long nose, and thin lips resembles a hideous horse and many – black and white – share this opinion of her looks.

    I agree with many on this thread that racism drives the opinions of many who find black women unattractive. Black men aren’t held to the same standard because dark skin and broader features are considered masculine. Black men have always been seen as extremely masculine, while womanhood is conceptualized as light skin, long hair, and delicate features – characteristics best embodied by white women. It’s really that simple.


  132. White men secretly love us, and white women are jealous thats why all these Cave Bitc**s get Botox in their lips, and dark orange tans, and butt injections! and walk around like their the hottest thing on earth and they are not!!!Black women are the best and we are gorgeous and the world knows that so sistas keep ya head up!


  133. “Also, black women in the US generally have a higher self esteem regarding their beauty than white women do… you’d never know that by reading comments on the internet. But, I swear to you, it’s true.”

    It’s definitely true. Perhaps we’ve been shielded from unrealistic beauty expectations simply because we’re so far away from “popular ideals” that we just ignore them completely.

    I mean, let’s be real. How many BW have wanted to look like Barbie? Show of hands?

    How many BW would trade in their appearance to look like Jennifer Aniston, Paris Hilton, or Pamela Anderson?

    What, no takers?
    Believe it or not, there are WW who actually ENVY those women their appearance. Yes, I know. I think it’s insane, too.

    I’ve basically ignored the media’s version of beauty all of my life and it’s done me a world of good. We know we’re fine. We don’t need gay WM to tell us that for it to be true.


  134. Unfortunately Kiki’s comments are a true reflection of what alot of BM and light-skinned, mixed race people think about black features in the UK. There’s no awareness of self-love and a culture of self-hate that is dictate by a white beauty standard. BW who are not mixed or lighted skinned are at the recieving end of this type of hatred.


  135. I live in London, have seen the type of self hatred exhibited by a lot of blacks like Kiki, very very sad what happens to some black people in the West. I am Southern African born and raised,I’ve lived in the West for 10 yrs,thank god I wasn’t brought up in a world that looks down on me because I’m black.

    I live in a predominantly white suburb called Wimbledon, I date white men as that is who tends to ask me out. I note that British men are well aware I’m black and love and accept me just as I am, wheareas black men here get hung up on degree of lightness, what I’m mixed with etc. It’s like because I’m African i need to look like Alek Wek, who is cute by the way. I don’t want my genealogy dissected. I’m so sorry to hear what blacks in the US go through. I’ve never had a racist incident in my entire life, so to go from my own country to lily white conservative part of London i must be very lucky not to have experienced anomosity towards my race.

    I have noted though that when i have ventured into black neighbourhoods like Brixton, I encounter blacks like Kiki who contrary to popular belief about whites being racist, it’s actually intra-racism/colorism that hurts the black community more. I’ve also noticed that among blacks of Caribbean descent as opposed to African. Not sure if its related to slavery, I’d hate to make such assumptions, you all can correct me if I’m wrong. The whole light skin/dark skin debate is way more prevalent in Caribbean community, maybe that’s why my girlfriends tend to be Africans, we just come from a different world I suppose.

    To be Kiki and feel that way about yourself and your race says a lot about you my dear, I feel very sorry for you. I think black people the world over are stunning people. Kiki has bought too much into the stereotypical view of what’s beautiful. She could be like some black women who are so loathsome about their looks that they target and procreate with white men, not out of genuine interest but to ‘narrow’ the features of her children. Some people attack black men for dating outside their race, i believe there are women out there that do the same, but only to have a little pretty baby with features they worship. How tragic!


  136. Also Wimbledon is a very wealthy suburb, old money and all, I’ve seen a few BW/WM couples with kids here, these are men with money who have black African wives,discussed features and all. I don’t see BM/WW coupled here, except maybe in Brixton. There is a genuine interest to date ‘those features’ of women.

    The sad part of American culture is how it brainwashes people the world over to dislike black features. American TV is everywhere! Thank god there’s a pond between us. My African American friends over here are not short of suitors at all! I firmly believe that there are some people on Abagond, not naming names, that do not like the idea of black beauty being celebrated. I genuinely don’t understand why that is : (


  137. Kate Winslet is a good example of a very feminine WW. Other than her eyes, everything about her is round and soft. She also has a full, round behind. Most WM think she is fat.

    http://www.famous-actors-images.blogspot.com/2009/02/kate-winslet-pictures.html


  138. Hell no we are not ugly! Ugliness comes in all races, black women don’t have ugliness on lock.

    The majority of us may not adhere to white beauty standards (THIN/SKINNY, STRAIGHT BLOND HAIR, NO ASS, FAKE BREASTS, LOTS OF MAKEUP) but that doesn’t mean we are unattractive.

    I don’t want to come off as cocky but I am very attractive, I get comments on it every time I go out. One thing that irritates me is that people always ask me if I’m mixed or they assume that I must not be all black. Black is beautiful and it comes in all shades. Some people are conditioned to believe that black = ugly so when they see someone that doesn’t fit the stereotype they immediately question your racial background.

    Society has brainwashed people into thinking that African features are ugly. It’s much easier to dehumanize and discriminate against a race of people if they are viewed as ugly and subhuman. It’s racism baby.


  139. on Fri 2 Oct 2009 at 15:11:57 mynameismyname

    ^^
    I agree B&G,

    I don’t understand the notion of black women “looking manly”. It never added up.

    I do notice that many Eastern European-descended women tend to have a manlier look. The celeb examples of Brooke Shields and Jennifer Aniston prove this.

    Yet, like you said, masculine-featured or shaped women can be pretty too.


  140. I think it’s just plain racism, really.

    What I find interesting is that white people (during slavery times) described black people’s bodies as being hyper-sexualized: the women feminine and the men masculine. That was something they used to convinced others that black people are baser; closer to their animal natures. That white people appear more androgynous and are therefore more evolved.

    Now they that the women are masculine… but it’s the same women.


  141. “I do notice that many Eastern European-descended women tend to have a manlier look.”

    Only the Eastern European women you see in American media, which are selected by the same people who brought you Kate Moss.

    My mother is originally from the Czech Republic and when I visit relatives there I’m always struck by how feminine the women are. Overall much softer, rounder, curvier, more delicate features. A good friend of mine is from Slovakia and she exudes femininity. Here is typical-looking Czeck woman:
    http://czech-bride.com/czech-bride/4886_2.jpg

    Whereas most Germanic women are very masculine looking: tall, thin, broad-shouldered, sharp/chiseled facial features, long/pointy noses, etc. Typical German:
    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_iNqF5RnBjP8/Rrq_OgCh_vI/AAAAAAAAAFs/Fnl5gqU-ZVI/s1600/sandra-bullock-picture-1.jpg

    Even though they both attractive and have dark hair, the Germanic-type has much more masculine features. There is a “hard” look to her. This is what WM prefer: strong, hard, chiseled features on a long, lean form.

    More examples of that:

    http://www.pajiba.com/image/040407_bi_knightley_300X400.jpg
    http://www.topnews.in/files/Victoria-Beckham103.jpg

    Sometimes, for variation, they like to see huge plastic breasts on them.


  142. on Fri 2 Oct 2009 at 16:47:04 mynameismyname

    ^^
    Yes! I noticed the same thing about Germanic women. They do appear very masculine. Not all, of course, but generally speaking.

    Also, I say the same thing all the time, you can’t go by what you see in the media. These people are selected, they’re not fully representative. Hence, why I try to stay away from celeb examples on this blog. I know how a lot of these people REALLY look and lemme tell you, it’s not how they look on TV and in the magazines! That’s for sure! LOL.


  143. Another thing about BW’s looks is that they (and most other non-WW) don’t age as quickly as WW. This is not merely a question of wrinkles as even WW without wrinkles look older than comparable BW.

    It’s about their facial features. The softness of their features makes their faces more “plump”. It is the loss of “plumpness” in the face, which is associated with youth, that makes a face look older. Because young WW often begin with hard features, they are already older-looking to begin with and therefore age that much more rapidly. BW will often look like a teenager into their 30s. I’ve seen this with AW and HW, as well; a sort of agelessness.

    Another thing is the lips: thin lips age faster because lips get thinner and flatter as you age. Therefore if you start out with fuller lips your lips will stay full for longer.

    Same problem with long noses. Noses get longer as you age so starting out with a wide nose gives you an obvious advantage.

    Please remember when I say WW I mean western-European WW. Eastern European and Central Asian WW tend to age much better as they also have softer features.

    A final thought on aging: I often see young non-WW out with older WM and for a while I thought: that old geezer is robbing the cradle. But now that I’ve met more and more of these couples personally I’ve been surprised to discover that the women aren’t much younger than the men. They just look like they are.
    Perhaps that’s one of the reasons why interracial marriages increase with age: when an older WM is looking around at the women in his age group non-WW will probably be the youngest-looking ones.
    My husband is 6 years older than me but I’ve had people guess a much larger distance. They think I’m 19 or 20, rather than 29.


  144. Black&German says:
    I think it’s just plain racism, really.
    What I find interesting is that white people (during slavery times) described black people’s bodies as being hyper-sexualized: the women feminine and the men masculine. That was something they used to convinced others that black people are baser; closer to their animal natures. That white people appear more androgynous and are therefore more evolved.

    Now they that the women are masculine… but it’s the same women.

    laromana says,
    Black&German,
    Thanks so much for your very insightful/truthful comments (complete with helpful images) on the truth about BW and the UNJUSTIFIABLY NEGATIVE way our beauty is treated in American society.

    It’s important for EVERYONE to learn the TRUTH about the ANTI-BW/RACIST perspective that has ALWAYS informed American beauty standards.

    There are so many FACTS about BW’s TRUE BEAUTY (BW more feminine facial features/bodies vs. WW, better aging, etc.)that CONTRADICT the MANY ANTI-BW LIES, MYTHS, and STEREOTYPES that continue to be promoted in American media/culture.


  145. But isn’t the MOST INTERESTING question, Laromana:

    Why are WM sexually selecting for masculine women? What is behind that? What is so attractive? Is it their higher sex drive? Aggression?
    After all, there are very feminine-looking WW out there but they are a small and shrinking group. Feminine features (and the inherent high estrogen levels) denote fertility, domestication, gentleness, mothering traits, etc. Are these aspects of womanhood that are going out of style?

    Drew Berrymore has a delicate, feminine face:
    http://amog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/drewbarrymore.jpg
    As does Halle Berry:
    http://www.blackisbeautiful.se/uploaded_images/Sara-Nuru-744350.jpg
    And Sade:
    http://shcollective.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/sade.jpg
    And Honorine Uwera:
    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_u3lFqBksmrE/SOikpIq9BxI/AAAAAAAALV0/JYXNrybzDwI/s400/5-honorine-uwera.jpg

    Angela Bassett, Megan Fox, and Angelina Jolie have a mix of masculine and feminine features:
    http://urie.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/13078_angela_basset_2006_black_movi.jpg
    http://www.gossipcheck.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/megan_fox4.jpg
    http://www.alleba.com/blog/wp-content/photos/angelina_jolie.jpg

    And Giselle Buendchen is straight-up manly. I have a male cousin who looks just like her. Really, I do and everytime I see her I’m reminded of him.
    http://www.zimbio.com/TOM+BRADY-GISELE+BUNDCHEN+RELATIONSHIP/articles/35/Gisele+Bundchen+Bikini+Pictures


  146. To mynameismyname:

    I do notice that many Eastern European-descended women tend to have a manlier look. The celeb examples of Brooke Shields and Jennifer Aniston prove this.

    Brooke Shields is Irish, Italian, and German whereas Jennifer Aniston is Scottish/Italian and Half Greek (Her father anglicized his name from Yannis Anastassakis to John Aniston). I wouldn’t really classify either one as Eastern European. From my travels in Europe, I would agree with Black&German that German women tend to be more masculine in appearance than most other European women. (also more sexually aggressive, which I believe is cultural not biological..) To my eyes I think Scottish women would probably be second in Europe for having a masculine appearance after the Germans. (A good chuck of the white people in the Southeastern US are of Scottish descent, especially in Appalachia…)


  147. I wouldn’t mind if men (of any race — BM say this crap, too) said that they simply don’t find African features attractive but saying that we’re “too masculine” is basically a cheap-shot at our femininity. If you don’t want us: fine, we won’t cry over the loss. But stop comparing us to apes.

    I’m always surprised when I hear Americans say that European men don’t find us actually attractive; they just pursue us because they think we’re easy. That doesn’t even make any sense. If a woman is truly unattractive, quality men won’t want her EVEN IF SHE’S EASY.

    Newsflash:
    If they’re dancing with her, flirting with her, taking her out, buying her gifts, or otherwise openly pursuing her then… they think she’s attractive. Men don’t put that much effort into mating ugly women. They don’t necessarily want to marry her but they’d probably shag her if she gave them the opportunity. Yes, I’m sure you’re shocked at that revelation.


  148. on Fri 2 Oct 2009 at 22:29:26 mynameismyname

    Uncle Milton,

    This may sound “politically incorrect” but unless they are Southern European/Meditterrean types, a white woman is merely just a white woman to me. Just the way I’m sure as a white male, that it doesn’t matter to you if a black person is Egyptian, Jamaican or black American. They’re just another “you know what” in your eyes. LOL.


  149. mynameismyname Says:

    This may sound “politically incorrect” but unless they are Southern European/Meditterrean types, a white woman is merely just a white woman to me. Just the way I’m sure as a white male, that it doesn’t matter to you if a black person is Egyptian, Jamaican or black American. They’re just another “you know what” in your eyes. LOL.

    LOL Myname!


  150. To mynameismyname:

    This may sound “politically incorrect” but unless they are Southern European/Meditterrean types, a white woman is merely just a white woman to me.

    That’s likely the case for quite a few white people also.

    if a black person is Egyptian, Jamaican or black American.

    FWIW, I can frequently tell by appearance the difference between Black Americans and people from Africa, especially East Africans.

    They’re just another “you know what” in your eyes.

    Maybe you’re joking, but even though I disagree, sometimes strongly, with some of things posted here I do not think about black people in such objectionable terms. My mother taught art at a HBC from 1969 to 1973. We had college educated black people over to our house from the time when I was 8 years old. However, it’s true I am wrestling with some of the experiences I had when I lived in Oakland.


  151. Uncle Milton says

    FWIW, I can frequently tell by appearance the difference between Black Americans and people from Africa, especially East Africans.

    I am curious how could you tell?, and East Africans some do share features with people from Rwanda, Guinee, Tanzania, Zanzibar etc…

    So how do you difference Back African with black Americans or black carribean.

    If u have:

    Idris Elba and Tyrese

    Gracelle beauvais, Michelle Obama and Genevieve Nnaji

    Tell me how you know where they come from


  152. out of topic!

    Aba,

    Why do I appear with 2 usernames?


  153. If you mean why your picture does not always appear, that is because you are spelling your email address wrong.


  154. Aba,

    no about my pick but my username, one is the begining of my email adress


  155. Not sure about that.


  156. I am just reading through the comments now….


  157. Mynameismyname said:

    “This may sound “politically incorrect” but unless they are Southern European/Meditterrean types, a white woman is merely just a white woman to me.”

    Same here.


  158. I agree that white women age faster. Being fat also destroys their looks more. And many do look too androgynous to be appealing.

    I understand the appeal of, say, Angelina Jolie or Megan Fox, but I never got the whole Jennifer Aniston thing. She looks very plain to me.

    I never understood white male un/attraction to black women. I noticed this “mannish/whorish thing too, which never made sense to me. If you are not attracted to black women, fine, I can accept that, but then why make them out to be whores, etc?


  159. @abagond:

    You’re so right about Jennifer Aniston. I remember when she appeared on the cover of People magazine’s Most Beautiful, I was thinking People must be blind. She’s average.

    http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/2007/specials/beauties07/covers/jennifer_aniston.jpg


  160. “I agree that white women age faster. Being fat also destroys their looks more. And many do look too androgynous to be appealing.”

    ooo that was kinda rough abagond…but then again i’ve heard far worse and far more often comments about black women being the ugliest of the ugly lol


  161. “I never understood white male un/attraction to black women. I noticed this “mannish/whorish thing too, which never made sense to me. If you are not attracted to black women, fine, I can accept that, but then why make them out to be whores, etc?”

    white males i guess are just attracted to their white females the same way i guess most black men (supposedly) are attracted to black females. but i’ve always believed that basically because black women are pretty mcuh the polar opposite of the beauty standard in the western world (which sadly controls most of the media that decides whats beautiful) we’ve always been seen as a threat to other women because our beauty falls at the opposite of the beauty standard so we are vilified constantly because we’re so far from the standard if black beauty were to become an acceptable standard of beauty that would undermine white supremacy


  162. truly…the saddest thing is there are so many black women and girls who believe just because they have dark brown skin and curly-kinky hair they’re ugly. therefore they don’t even bother to care for themselves or love and value themselves and diminish their own natural beauty because some of us have been so brainwashed to see ourselves/features as ugly that we believe it after awhile. It’s so sad and the media/society helps us with this image. I’m so sick of people thinking african women are ugly. I am damn sick of it. The women who braid my hair are Senegalese and they are very beautiful, but people don’t like to believe that black beauty in it of itself can be beautiful. they only see black beauty on the discovery channel and that’s it. then black american women seen as masculine/domineering and ugly…its getting really tired it really is


  163. that’s why when i go to my trip through africa, i would like to go to ghana, senegal and south africa and tunisia, i will be taking lots of pictures, especially in accra because i’m getting tired of people thinking black women are naturally ugly. no…some of us see ourselves as ugly because people tell us that constantly and therefore some of us choose to diminish our natural beauty, but when black women are beautiful…we’re beautiful. Ofcourse all women are beautiful…but i’m sick of people saying black women are naturally ugly


  164. Abagond:

    “I understand the appeal of, say, Angelina Jolie or Megan Fox, but I never got the whole Jennifer Aniston thing. She looks very plain to me.”

    That’s because you prefer feminine women. Which is probably why you find black women so attractive.

    Peanut said:
    “adriana lima looks so mixed here”

    She’s very pretty but she has some masculine features. Check out the angled jaw and chiseled nose (her real nose?). She’s a very appealing mix of masculine and feminine features, I think.

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_SBS91iykWT8/Sh5F-_DtcgI/AAAAAAAADDY/GtsuWmrHLFI/s320/Sexy+Adriana+Lima+2.jpg

    Another masculine trait is high cheekbones (not the same as prominent cheekbones). Adriana’s are prominent (a general mark of beauty) but not high. Angelina Jolie’s are high.

    Like I said, masculine doesn’t mean unattractive, it just means masculine. Just as feminine men (often described as “boyish”) are often very attractive.

    E.g.
    http://www.almostzara.com/wp-content/uploads/leonardo-dicaprio.jpg
    http://triffidsmustdie.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/keanu-reeves-7.jpg
    http://s3.amazonaws.com/songza.media.blog-img/babyface.jpg
    http://cinematicpassions.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/law20jude.jpg
    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Mb9ApG_8AUk/Sc4fkcL_6GI/AAAAAAAAAR8/ln8pu-GqI8M/s320/simon%2520baker.jpg

    I’m hyper-feminized in appearance. A mix of Czech and African blood will do that. My theory is that it is actually that feminine appearance that German men find so appealing. That has been my experience, at least (especially since I’m pasty-pale most of the time, so it can’t only be “dark skin”).


  165. i mean she looks mixed in terms of her ethnicity, i guess she is mixed, she’s brazilian. I just found it funny because i was on a post on a forum comparing megan good to megan fox and one comment was “i don’t even know why this is a question, fox, now do one of megan fox vs. adriana lima now that’s a contest…” and ofcourse there were alot of nasty digs at bw as usual. but what i found funny was the person who made the comment doesn’t realize adriana is mixed ethnicity and mixed with african at that, probably some african females in here lineage lol, that was funny.
    Racial classifications in brazil confuse me…i don’t understand why Lima is considered one thing, but Silva is considered black, they both look mixed to me, maybe Silva bit less and maybe her hair a kinkier (i don’t know) but it confuses me. who decides who is black and who is not, the two look similar to me.
    I really don’t see the difference between adriana here and
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_SBS91iykWT8/Sh5F-90SybI/AAAAAAAADDQ/2uBJxo2-bp4/s320/Sexy+Adriana+Lima+1.jpg

    Silva here
    http://eobvio.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/8c2ba-ildi-silva.jpg


  166. In Brazil Silva is not seen as black or white but as mixed. By blood she is 71% white, 19% black and 10% native Indian. The One Drop Rule does not apply in Brazil.

    Silva and Lima were born in the same city (Salvador), one year apart.

    I think Lima is not seen as “black” in America because it would limit her work as a model. She is just an “exotic” Brazilian. It would be interesting to know if she got any plastic surgery and whether she or her agency have taken any measures to make her seem whiter than she is.


  167. Adriana Lima is mixed too: Portuguese, French, African and native Indian.


  168. http://www.alfredoonline.blogger.com.br/camila-alves.jpg

    she’s mixed too, i wonder if she is considered light-skinned black in america

    http://images.starpulse.com/Photos/pv/Jurnee%20Smollett-13.jpg

    someone like smollett who is definitely black in america would probably not be considered in brazil i’m guessing. Is jurnee smollett creole btw does anyone know?


  169. or how about beyonce would she be black in brazil she looks pretty damn black to me being a black american


  170. The various images of mixed race African/other race women on this post and the “DIFFERENT RACIAL CLASSIFICATIONS” used to describe them illustrate the ARBITRARY, IRRATIONAL, way the INVENTION of RACE works depending on what country/culture a person of ANY African ancestry finds themselves in.


  171. I wouldn’t mind if men (of any race — BM say this crap, too) said that they simply don’t find African features attractive but saying that we’re “too masculine” is basically a cheap-shot at our femininity. If you don’t want us: fine, we won’t cry over the loss. But stop comparing us to apes.

    I’m always surprised when I hear Americans say that European men don’t find us actually attractive; they just pursue us because they think we’re easy. That doesn’t even make any sense. If a woman is truly unattractive, quality men won’t want her EVEN IF SHE’S EASY.

    Newsflash:
    If they’re dancing with her, flirting with her, taking her out, buying her gifts, or otherwise openly pursuing her then… they think she’s attractive. Men don’t put that much effort into mating ugly women. They don’t necessarily want to marry her but they’d probably shag her if she gave them the opportunity. Yes, I’m sure you’re shocked at that revelation

    You are absolutely right. But being mixed race and seeing endless variety, you can easily conclude that Black women are not ugly. I am not mixed but I am around Black people a lot and I can see the variety and beauty of Black women across cultures and socioeconomic lines. Whites Asians and some Hispanics are completely cut off from this variety so they believe what is fed to them and this meme of Black women being Mannish and wh*rish has been going on for centuries—it just didn’t pop out in the last 40 years. Thus the invisibility of Black people makes it impossible for many Whites and other non-Blacks to really see Black and that there is diversity in the community. If they were able to take that cognitive leap that that would preclude them to see Black people as human and that is something that many Whites simply cannot do.

    Also, sexual competition plays a role, especially with White and to some extent Asian women. They are at the top of the food chain but to White woman’s chagrin, Asian women are catching up and they don’t like having to be challenged. With black women they feel that we are not a challenge to their ascendancy of what all men find desirable, therefore it is a blow to their ego if any man chooses a Black women over them, especially if the man in question is desirable and sought after by them. I hate to say it but I have seen this with Asian women, who are used to White men falling over themselves for to get their attention and they become absolutely flabbergasted when a desirable White man chooses a *gasp* black woman. They honestly can’t conceive that a Black woman is more desirable to them even though she is physically better looking, etc.

    I don’t think Europe is some kind of racial Utopia but I have heard too many stories of average to nice looking Black women that were literally shocked at the unsolicited and genuine attention that they received from men in Europe. This also happens to a smaller extent in parts of West Africa as well. Asia not so much, but I really think that it behooves Black women to ignore White American Men and branch out Globally and see that they are not so loathsomely hideously ugly and nothing but 2$ Wh*res.

    On a side note, have to echo the consensus of Jennifer Aniston. I remember seeing a picture of her and Brad Pitt standing together and it was remarkable how much alike they looked. I never understood why she is seen as so attractive and interesting when there are so many great looking and charismatic Black actresses who could run rings around her. Then I have to think that she epitomizes the girl next door type that a lot of White guys want and she gives hope to average white women as well. That is the only explanation for her particular hook.


  172. I honestly don’t get what’s so desirable about a white man? Frankly, any man who thinks you’re not up to par with what he considers goodlooking isn’t the type of man you want to be with in the first place imho.


  173. Mayhue,
    Your comments on this topic are excellent and on point. ANTI-BW RACIST/HATERS just CAN’T ACCEPT the FACT that BW are NOT INFERIOR to them as far as our BEAUTY/FEMININITY and DESIRABLITY are concerned.


  174. Well all i have to say is i am chocolate brown woman and im in love with my skin tone, my big full lips ,my shapley bottom my swagger the way i carry myself im just the total package. And all my other brown sistas need to think and feel the same way!!Nobody is perfect but ladies please learn how to fall in love with yourself every inch, ounce, nook and cranny, Regardless to what “White America” says because you know what they know were beautiful they just dont want to admit it most of them are just jealous!!


  175. Whoa! Just did a search for pictures of Adriana Lima and came up with this:

    http://img110.exs.cx/img110/6629/066adrianalima1og.jpg

    I’m thinking it’s pre-surgery (she looks really young) because her nose doesn’t look so weird there. She was prettier with her real nose, I think. The fake one makes her look like a Nordic rip-off and it’s sort of manly.
    Actually, in that picture she looks a lot like me, just prettier and skinnier. LOL! She’s definitely mixed.

    Leigh204:

    “Frankly, any man who thinks you’re not up to par with what he considers good looking isn’t the type of man you want to be with in the first place imho.”

    Yes, of course.

    I wouldn’t say WM are more desirable than other men. And I know plenty of women (of all races) who find them flat-out unattractive, for whatever reason. And others who prefer them, for whatever reason.

    But our point is the pure racism of these anti-BW beliefs.

    Mayhue, excellent post, as always.

    Nubian Queen:

    LOL! You know you’re right! We know we look good. Some people are just blind.


  176. Finest man ever:
    http://media.photobucket.com/image/denzel%20washington/qbrannon/denzel_washington.jpg

    Second-runner up:
    http://www.thecinemasource.com/moviesdb/images/PierceBrosnan1-300.jpg

    And third place goes to:
    http://widdleshamrock.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/hothunk-wentworth-miller.jpg

    Sexiest man I’ve ever seen in real life was this East Indian guy who served at my favorite Indian restaurant in Austin. My mother and I ate there all of the time just to gawk at him. Man, was he fine! He must have thought we were so annoying.

    So how did I end up with a German blond? I have no idea. But he’s cute, too. Sort of Simon Baker-y.

    Funny article about dating German guys:
    http://berlin.cafebabel.com/en/post/2008/04/05/Warum-deutsche-Manner-nicht-flirten

    See? It’s not just me!


  177. am i the only person who forgets that a lot of people think BW are ugly? im so convinced in my own mind that bw are more attractive, until i come across it irl or the internet, i forget that people have these views, even though via the media im surrounded by eurocentric images of beauty.

    even when i was little and didn’t understand, it was the cute, pretty dark skin black girls i remember noticing the most.

    and the idea of black features being unatrictive as a standard is BS, please, when these features are on white women everyone likes them (full lips, curves..etc)

    in some cases it’s just a matter of preferance, others, usually those who have a more intense dislike, it’s racism.

    maybe my lack of understanding how anyone can not find 1 single full black woman attractive is what a lot of people seem to feel in reverse. yeh, that sounds like racism to me, u know ‘only the mixed ones’ doesn’t make sense, there may be certain ethnicities i generally find less attractive but to write off an entire race, there has to be some active hatred towards them.

    i have a friend who’s ex use to talk about how blonde women were like ‘angels’. she thought blonde women were attractive and didn’t think most bw were, made me wonder what she thought about herself. since knowing me she’s come around to realising how many beatiful black women are around & switched her preference (um..she’s not into girls, just on topic of conversation)

    I think psycology, what people say & what your exposed to, has a lot to do with what an indiviual find attractive.


  178. FS said:

    “there may be certain ethnicities i generally find less attractive but to write off an entire race, there has to be some active hatred towards them.”

    I agree with that.


  179. I also agree.


  180. People have their own preferences on beauty. When beauty gets into this type of dangerous territory (race), people tend to ignore facts and cling to emotion. I can see a lot of this throughout the comments.

    Jodee pretty much sums up what I think.


  181. Blacks are just ugly. It’s not just the bogeyman of American racism either. Asians also have a distaste for black skin. And the people here who are being so consolatory are just disingenuous. Wake up. Stop playing P.C mind games. Whites are the minority, now. We can stop impugning “evil whitey” in an attempt to side with the poor dark skinned minority. This attitude is outdated, and shows a disconnect with reality. Black are ugly.


  182. I knew when i clicked onto this post to read what Don wrote i would be sorely disappointed. I honestly didn’t expect anything positive to come out of that poison “pen” of his with what he just wrote. “sigh

    NEXT……


  183. TROLL ALERT TROLL ALERT!!!!!


  184. He referred to racism as the “boogeyman” that made me laugh, sounds like your typical premium white club member.


  185. LOL.


  186. @ Gen

    I think they are going to have Boogyman t-shirts made up for the premium members. lol


  187. Very interesting website. I am black and was married to a white man for 20 years until we divorced. We are still friends. I signed up for some on-line dating sites and was surprised by the number of white men who contacted me. i even dated two of them!

    Personally, I am not attracted to those Nordic blonde types like Brad Pitt. To me, some of the most handsome men in the world are those big, tall, brown-skinned, black haired men from the Pacific Islands (Samoa, Fiji, Tonga, etc.) They are GORGEOUS!


  188. I have personally never heard anyone imply that black women are ugly. However I do have a guess at what may cause people to think something like that. Maybe it’s from the stereo-type of certain groups of black women being really into mskeup and fake-beauty-bits (hair extensions, acrylic nails, false lashes, etc.). Fake bits can imply that the natural version of a person isn’t very attractive underneath, if people know they are fake.


  189. Well the whites are just angry because black features don’t age like theirs do, we have childish features. Small round noses, high cheek bones, short stature, no wrinkles, no need for makeup, etc. If any white person has a problem with the looks of a black person it’s because they are jealous or have bad feelings about their own looks. White people making fun at a black person just means they have low self esteem because they look 20 years older than they really are and have premature grey hair.


  190. Nykkee Says,
    Maybe it’s from the stereo-type of certain groups of black women being really into mskeup and fake-beauty-bits (hair extensions, acrylic nails, false lashes, etc.). Fake bits can imply that the natural version of a person isn’t very attractive underneath, if people know they are fake.

    laromana says,
    NON-BW also use “fake bits” to enhance their beauty but ANTI-BW HATER/RACISTS only stigmatize BW for doing this.


  191. co-sign with Laramona.

    BW are not the only ones who use products that are not “real” for beauty enhancement. Been going on for centuries with all races of women.


  192. @ Nykkee

    It’s not that it’s just racism.


  193. on Fri 1 Jan 2010 at 17:10:04 CandiedChestnut

    I don’t know why they are considered unattractive but I really don’t care what people think. I think blogs like this are a waste of time. Stop worrying about it, black women. People have their taste. You changing who you are just makes it worse and it robs you of dignity as well as self respect. Without those, you don’t have anything. I’ve come to realize that chases someone else’s fantasy doesn’t do a thing for me. It’s time for me. Also, stop aiming for validation from men. Learn not to desire men. I know it’s seems counter intuitive, but when you really don’t desire them and are detached, it doesn’t matter whether they leave or stay. This preserves your sense of happiness and well-being.


  194. There is a litmus test to gauge whether a woman is feminine-looking or not. If you were to look at a photo of just her face without makeup and her hair was shaved or close-cropped, would she be easily identifiable as a woman?

    For example, Sinead O’ Conner looks feminine. I’m not saying she’s great looking to me, I just think she’s feminine because without hair and makeup, I can tell she is a woman:

    http://seespanrun.com/cloning/sinead.jpg

    Same with this woman, she’s wearing some makeup, but even without it and her close cropped hair, she’d be easily identifiable as a woman.

    http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg192/suigeneris1983/NYIMG_00031_LG.jpg

    And I like Nina, but if she were to shave her head and wear no makeup, she’d be indistinguishable from a man:

    http://media.photobucket.com/image/nina%20simone/djprestige/Flea%20Market%20Funk%20Blog/NinaSimone.jpg


  195. Black women are not very ncie to look at. They dont have the womanlike features. They are very aggressive and violent.

    They are very big and muscular, which scares people. They show too much flesh and it makes people feel sick.


  196. What are womanlike features? Break it down for us.


  197. well, Abagond, womanlike features are:
    -pleasant feminine mannerisms
    -nice eyes
    -warming smile
    and the list goes on


  198. As usual, just another troll with nothing pertinent to say aside from the typical generalizations. *yawn*


  199. what is a troll? sorry I am not familiar whith ghetto terminology. Not everyone lives in a ghetto.


  200. Troll is ghetto terminology now? lol! Oh, you silly troll.


  201. I had no idea black women were considered to be ugly.

    Speaking of “womanlike features”, black women tend to have many (of course, no two women are alike and making any general statements can be bad- but strictly speaking, black women do tend to have many womanlike features). Even if we talk about what white people consider “womanlike”.

    I’m not saying they’re more feminine than white or Asian women (I am not really able to tell if an individual woman is “feminine enough” or not). But if there is such a thing as “generally accepted womanlike features”, black women have plenty.


  202. From my understanding of trolls, they are short. Well, I’m 6 foot 3. How tall are you Keesha?


  203. Calling people by their wrong name is a sign of disrespect. If you want to be a jerk, do it somewhere else.


  204. Oh, hilarity ensues. lmao!


  205. why is she calling me a troll?


  206. Actually, trolls are creatures from German mythology.

    Speaking of:

    warming smile

    Any human being can have a warning smile.

    nice eyes

    I am a straight woman here, but I tend to prefer dark eyes over blue or green. So, I guess black woman can, and do, have nice eyes (nothing against blue eyed people, I just find dark eyed guys more attractive).

    As for:

    pleasant feminine mannerisms

    That doesn’t make much sense. It’s really individual. It has nothing to do with someone’s race.


  207. Marvin:

    A troll is an Internet term for someone who makes comments not because he is serious about them but just to get people angry for his own amusement.


  208. @Mira:

    Co-sign with your post. :D


  209. you know what I mean Mira. stop trying to be so PC


  210. OK, what do you guys think of indian women?


  211. That is off topic.


  212. OK Abagond, I feel I have been behaving like a troll, and I would like to apolgise. I will leave this forum.


  213. Apology accepted.


  214. Black women are the most beautiful women on earth!


  215. what is a troll? sorry I am not familiar whith ghetto terminology. Not everyone lives in a ghetto.

    Well, he obviously lives under a bridge or a rock, neh?

    Troll.


  216. That’s why Naomi is still modeling and she’s 40 now

    Actually, I believe she’s still modeling because she refuses to retire until there are more black models.


  217. I wouldn’t want to be the person that had to fire Naomi Campbell!
    She will tear you apart!


  218. Vinny is a sock puppet of Mr Thomas.


  219. on Sat 16 Jan 2010 at 02:14:06 Leaveumthinking

    Vinny

    Chinese people and Black people are much more beautiful than white people. Naomi looks more black than she does Chinese. Cindy Crawford is nothing special and would look much worst if it was’nt for all the botox being pumped into her face. If white people are so hot then why in the hell do they get so much plastic surgery? Why do they wear a ton of makeup? Why the tanning? White people age a billion times faster than any other race. They hands even start to wrinkle in their twenties. They get crows feet and age spots in their early twenties aswell. Their skin is not firm they have terrible cellulite even when they are skinny thats why they live in the gym. Even poor white women use their student loans to buy plastic breast and lips. Look at Heidi Montag 10 procedures in one day at 23. Anyone can look good with a ton of plastic surgery and white folks sure do need it.


  220. I think white people, especially women, feel like they’re under constant pressure to be thin, look young and “perfect”, or whatever mainstream ideas of beauty demand.

    Using too much makeup, cosmetics and stuff like botox and tanning products will ruin your face pretty quickly. Many white women use way too much products and their skin can’t breathe.

    I rarely put on any makeup, not to mention tanning products or something worse. People usually say I look much younger than I really am. I didn’t notice any hand wrinkles, but I do have some gray hairs. And I do have cellulite, ever since I was 11 years old. So I guess it’s genetic.


  221. Leaveumthinking is another white basher. You haters are worst than the kkk and if you think whites are ugly then why do black women wear weaves to have long hair and color contacts or bleach their skin if black is so beautiful. Why not just rock an afro and stop caking your face with make up that doesn’t even match your skin tone. This includes the fake moles and rosy red blush you all put on your cheeks too! RACIST!


  222. What does a mole (beauty mark) have to do with being white. I have one and it is real.


  223. on Sat 16 Jan 2010 at 03:22:46 Leaveumthinking

    Vinny

    I never wear make up; dont need it. I wear my own hair; which hangs down the middle of my back. I have never bleached my skin; that would be dumb. I do rock a fro whenever I feel like it.

    How am I worse than the KKK? I don’t think I have ever hung a white man from a tree. I’ve never dragged a white man from the back of a pick-up truck. I’ve never planted a burning cross in front of a white man’s house. I’ve never beat up a white person just for being white. So how am I worse than the KKK?


  224. “You haters are worst than the kkk and if you think whites are ugly then why do black women wear weaves to have long hair and color contacts or bleach their skin if black is so beautiful”

    Because they can. Many do ‘rock’ an afro and go makeup free. As for wearing colour contacts and ‘bleaching their skin, that is a function of white supremacy. Unfortunately this has brainwashed many into trying to conform to Eurocentric ideals of ‘beauty’. As for makeup, women, and, at some times in history men, have been wearing cosmetics or adorning themselves for centuries regardless of culture so what’s the big deal in black women wearing makeup? Better yet, why are you concerned about women’s hairstyles and makeup? I suppose white women don’t go to tanning salons, get hair extensions, and also wear colour contacts? Get real!


  225. Better yet, why are you concerned about women’s hairstyles and makeup? I suppose white women don’t go to tanning salons, get hair extensions, and also wear colour contacts? Get real!

    You, go, Herneith! *woot*

    And why is it if white women do it, it’s okay, but when BW/POC do it, then there’s something wrong with it. That doesn’t make any sense.


  226. on Sat 16 Jan 2010 at 03:36:36 Leaveumthinking

    Vinny

    Nowdays white women wear as much weave as black women. Many flat iron, blowdry, and color their hair. How many real blondes do you know?


  227. I only know a few. Yet, many women dye their hair. Which is risky, because results are often unpleasant to the eye.


  228. I guess it would be safe to say that all woman adorn themselves in many ways with the exception of skin bleaching. So what? Looks are in the eye of the beholder, as is how one chooses to adorn themselves whatever the underlying cause. According to ‘Vinny’, when black women do this it is some how extraordinary. When white women do it, it is the norm and doesn’t excite as much comment. And yes Leaveumthinking is right, there is probably more white women doing this than black women any day. A double standard exists if one ever did! Is that the best retort you can offer ‘Vinny’?


  229. Vinny doesn’t notice white women doing all those things because (s)he see it as a normal behavior. Yet, (s)he seems to notice it on black women.


  230. A British newspaper recently ran a cover of Naomi Campbell and their darling Kate Moss side by side on holiday. No prizes for guessing, Kate paled in comparison(excuse the pun) to Naomi.
    Kate Moss, skinny as she is was spotty, had wrinkles, had cellulite, her skin was sagging, URG! she looked awful!! She’s only 36/7!She didn’t have a scrap of make-up on, I wondered for the millionth time why the heck this little woman is any kind of ‘supermodel’!
    Naomi on the other hand, barefaced, was very toned and lithe, skin glistened in the sun, she has a knockout body, you would never know the woman is 40.
    Frankly I was very surprised she was pictured with her Russian boyfriend!! They usually like to depict Naomi as single and pathetic. Can’t do that when he was all over her!
    The British press couldn’t deny on this occasion that Naomi wiped the floor with Kate.
    I don’t know any model with a body like Naomi, the British know this, when the heck is that going to catch on States-side?!!!


  231. Naomi is also testament to the way black women age. She’s 40 for crying out loud.
    I don’t think Naomi hasn’t retired because she doesn’t want to, she looks too good to retire. Where is Cindy, Christy or Linda ? Botoxed, siliconed and under the knife somewhere, or they bowed out gracefully. Are they still on the runway? I doubt it.
    All those young Russians and Eastern Europeans come and go, Naomi is still at the helm.
    I’ll give Heidi Klum credit though, but then again she’s German. I lived in Munich when I was younger, Germany has some beautiful women that preserve well with age.
    Claudia, Heidi, Gisele, all of German heritage.


  232. Wondering whether black women are beautiful or ugly is one of the looniest obsessions I’ve encountered.

    The curious part of this debate is how it seems to hinge on what each person thinks the other person believes.

    Since black men and women have risen to the top of the modelling world, the question has been answered. After all, black men and women are used to model clothes that are sold to whites.

    It is not as though the black models are only appearing in ads aimed at marketing to blacks.

    Meanwhile, there are plenty of blacks appearing in movies. If there were widespread rejection of blacks in movies, it would appear in the form of poor ticket sales. That would imply a rejection by white audiences. Hollywood goes for whatever sells, and there are plenty of bankable black actors.

    But Whitney Houston needs to lay off the drugs. Meanwhile, Angela Bassett was terrific in her role as Tina Turner.


  233. Hi im a black girl and i live in london. I live in a very upper class society, mostly white and have noticed the trend in young white boys seeing it as a taboo to be with a black girl. The fact is, i know im hot and i get attention everywhere i go. I can either dwell on what i hate about myself or dote on how beautiful i am. these rubbish debates can go on and on but the fact is, you get ugly and attractive people from every race. Pack it in.


  234. listen up u racist pigs black women are not ugly you people are just blind just because black people were slaves does not mean that they are ugly anyway some white people are ugly so just lay of us black people ok


  235. Wow i know there were some issues with whites on tip toe with blacks as if we are a disease n they dont wanna b spotted with us but seriously didnt realise how bad it was, i spent 2days reading and disecting this blog n am mighty tired plus my bf was tryna get me to stop as i get upset by things like this real bad and i have to say i am real dissapointed in some of the ignorancy i have read and stumbled upon this by accident, was tryna search for something else on google.

    I am a black light skinned girl and yes i do have ppl who have questioned if i am mixed and yes that irritates me but i dnt let it show i just answer it intelligently to get my point across that i am black and u should not question it but what does surprise me is that some blacks do ask me if am mixed and i think, i can understand that kind of ignorancy from a white person bcoz they are like that but my own race should know better.

    And i have dated a lot of races before, think i been through them all except for oriental Asians, i have just never been attracted to one but i have found some pretty hot looking but i think their females are so much hotter. From my experiences dating all the race i’ve dated, there are more WM who find us blacks attractive than it would seem but society makes them withdraw from wantin to be with us but i have also spoken to guys who just plain finds blacks unattractive but some are more justified as to the fact that they feel intimidated by the ghetto attitude some of us might display, now i would nt put us down but i have to admit we blacks can be majority aggressive when trying to make a point than most other races so i can understand how some characteristics in ppl can be a turn off and it is unfortunate that that type of aggression can b a turn off, i live in London and have been fortunate to b able to mix with all types of races, and despite the fact that i hav more black friends, i notice i get intimidated alot by some of them because of certain attitudes that i dnt get from the majority of my non black friends. But apart from the attitude, the features thing that whites seem to hate is totally pure hatred and inhumane as we were all brought into this world no matter what the race so you would think we would b used to eachothers features without being right out vile about looks.

    I also think that light skinned blacks are more favored in alot of cases than darker skinned blacks and i think it should b fairer which is also same as the fact that BM are respected while BF arent to the extent of the males and our males do not stand behind us as a race to show some recognition as i respect white ppl in some sense that their males do not demean their females in comparison to other races.

    To be perfectly honest i get more hostility from my fellow black females than i do other races and i dont fully understand why this is so, i suspect its partly because they dont like seeing me with my white friends or that they seem to accept me better but that i cannot help because my skin tone is what its is but i dont think it right that the whites are willin to open up to me with ease just because i am no dark like some, but in general everyone wants to be accepted so i cant discredit anyone or any race if they r willin to not shut me out.

    Also i have dated more blacks than whites or any other race but to b perfectly honest and hope this doesnt piss anyone off but its the truth n i am spkin from my experiences, i have had much more better treatment and respect from a white bf than i have from a black bf, so its not to say i prefer whites but i go for who treats me way better and lets me be myself more and shows more care and affection towards me and that has been the whites and i dont mean money wise either, even Asians have been not so gd experiences either. But in saying all this i am currently with a black bf and he is carribean mixed but mostly black and well i love him to bits, he has been the only black bf i have had that topped all the black and white guys i have been with so u see its more of how good i am treated in a relationships.

    I have also noticed that black gurlz hate on eachother randomly unprovoked like when am with my black friends i do ask them sometimes why u hatin on this gurl coz i been here the whole time, she hasnt done anything to u. I bare experience that with my white friends but i think this is partly to do with the fact that they lack self confidence but they are pretty but i think they have bought into the what the perfect woman is and they dont see it as themselves so they portray this self hatred mannerisms and also in effect this makes them reciprocate what they are used to gettin then they diss white ppl n say eww they are undatable which i dont agree with as every race is datable and that includes us blacks too but i wish we would have more self confidence n i also think this lack of confidence brings out the aggressive attitude which is probably a self defence mechanism i believe. All in all why not just love thy neigbour as we love thy self (to the racist whites) and for the blacks that have been bought into the white beauty thing are doing the opposite, (hating thy neighbour as hating thy self, what some of my black friends do), we gotta love ourselves then not b ignorant and also love thy neighbours too.


  236. Oh and another thing i forgot to add, i started off as a kid with having my hair low cut then started plattin it then relaxed it then wanted to see my natural hair so cut my hair n grew natural hair then got fed up of the pain of maintaining kinky hair, u see i love my hair but the pain of puttin a comb through it is another chapter i try to avoid lol so i went bk to relaxin it, right now am bk to growing it natural again because my bf wants to have it natural even though i have been xplainin to him that his mixed race curls are less painful that my kinky hair, so when the pain gets too much i supposes i’ll b hittin the chemicals again lol and as for makeup i wore my first makeup at the age of 18 because i saw ppl who looked glam with it now i wished i didnt, i had flawless smooth facial skin but with makeup came spots and well the flawless is gone :( but i do have to agree with some ppl, everyone assumes i am 15-18 when i am 22 almost 23 but then again its something that runs in my family so nt sure if its my race that makes my look younger or simply my family genes.


  237. on Wed 10 Mar 2010 at 01:47:45 Ó Dochartaigh

    Shybabes

    “I am a black light skinned girl and yes i do have ppl who have questioned if i am mixed and yes that irritates me but i dnt let it show.”

    Surprisingly this type of thing happens to me as well, I am white and my grandparents came from Ireland and Wales. What most people don’t know is how dark the Irish and Welsh are. So I always get asked are you Hispanic or Mexican or Muslim? Stereotypes can be irritating.


  238. Dochartaigh

    Dark Irish ppl are? i visit Ireland occasional n stay with my aunt who lives there, they dont look dark to me, they look pretty much like English ppl the same so am not quite sure how to go about disagreeing with that statement except the Irish ppl i have been seeing dont look dark in the hispanic or latino kind am afraid.


  239. i know some welsh people can get dark skinned.


  240. Irish people were originally from Northern Spain (but those people tend to be pale) and so there’s a lot of folks with very dark, coarse hair. It’s even more common in Wales.


  241. Woow i’ve just spent the best of 3 hours reading this blog and i’ve got so much to say…i was gonna start typing an essay filled with thoughts and emotions, and i thought of something abit more interesting

    I don’t know how many of you have heard of the Willie Lynch theory\letter but here it is…

    GENTLEMAN:

    I greet you here on the bank of the James River in the year of our Lord, one thousand seven hundred and twelve. First I shall thank you, the Gentlemen of the Colony of Virginia, for bringing me here. I am here to help you solve some of your problems with slaves. Your invitation reached me on my modest plantation in the West Indies where I have experimented with some of the newest and still the oldest methods for control of slaves. Ancient Rome would envy us if my program is implemented. As our boat sailed south on the James River, named for our illustrious King James, whose bible we cherish, I saw enough to know that your program is not unique. While Rome used cords of wood as crosses for standing human bodies along the old highways in great numbers, you are here using the tree and the rope on occasion.

    I caught the whiff of a dead slave hanging from a tree a couple of miles back. You are not only losing valuable stock by hangings, you are having uprisings, slaves are running away, your crops are sometimes left in the fields too long for maximum profit, you suffer occasional fires, your animals are killed, gentlemen…you know what your problems are; I do not need to elaborate. I am not here to enumerate your problems, I am here to introduce you to a method of solving them.

    In my bag here, I have a fool-proof method for controlling your black slaves. I guarantee everyone of you that if installed correctly it will control the slaves for at least 300 years. My method is simple, any member of your family or any overseer can use it.

    I have outlined a number of differences among the slaves, and I take these differences and make them bigger. I use fear, distrust, and envy for control purposes. These methods have worked on my modest plantation in the West Indies, and it will work throughout the South. Take this simple little test of differences and think about them. On the top of my list is “Age”, but it is there because it only starts with an “A”; the second is “Color” or shade; there is intelligence, size, sex, size of plantations, attitude of owners, whether the slaves live in the valley, on a hill, East, West, North, South, have fine or coarse hair, or is tall or short. Now that you have a list of differences, I shall give you an outline of action–but before that, I shall assure you that distrust is stronger than trust, and envy is stronger than adulation, respect, or admiration.

    The Black Slave, after receiving this indoctrination, shall carry on and will become self refueling and self generating for hundreds of years, maybe thousands.

    Don’t forget, you must pitch the old Black vs. the young Black male, and the young Black male against the old Black male. You must use the dark skinned slaves vs the light skinned slaves, and the light skinned slaves vs. the dark skinned slaves. You must use the female vs. the male, and the male vs. the female. You must also have your servants and overseers distrust all Blacks, but it is necessary that your slaves trust and depend on us. They must love, respect, and trust only us.

    Gentlemen, these kits are your keys to control, use them. Have your wives and children use them. Never miss opportunity. My plan is guaranteed, and the good thing about this plan is that if used intensely for one year, the slaves themselves will remain perpetually distrustful.

    It does go on in more detail about the methods used, but u’ll have to google it to read the rest..

    This letter dates back to 1712, and 298 years later we are still slaves to this theory. Black Women & Black Men need to wake up – ASAP

    And to futher add my 2pence – Black women are far from ugly, they are desirable and beautiful people, who 2often underestimate the depth of thier beauty. I do also think however that ugliness on the inside can manifest itself on the outside. Negativity is not pretty.
    Love your hair, love your lips, love your nose, love your backside, love your culture, love your heritage, love your neighbour (that includes white people) and love yourself (not just physically but mentally) If u don’t how can you expect anyone else 2!


  242. Re: Willie Lynch

    “I don’t know how many of you have heard of the Willie Lynch theory\letter but here it is…”

    Likely it’s fiction.. at the very least, it is very unlikely that those are the exacts words. Written English in terms of grammar and style was quite a bit different 300 years ago than the example above.

    http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=102;t=000148;p=1

    http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=10&nav=messages&webtag=ab-urbanlegends&tid=5814

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lynch_speech


  243. on Thu 11 Mar 2010 at 05:09:18 Ó Dochartaigh

    Shybabes

    The Irish and Welsh people share DNA that most resembles the Spanish or Basque people of southern France. My sister and I are told we look like a Jew or Spaniard all the time, but we have no Spanish or Jewish ancestors.


  244. @ Ó Dochartaigh

    That is what you mean by black Irish, well that is white to me still am afraid but like a white person can look like they are from any country but its not hard to tell a black person is black really, light skinned isint uncommon in blacks n atleast ur not mistaken to have a different race or colour if you know what i mean, its all in the white colour/race, but ppl think i have a non black mix/race along with my black so that should not be a hard mistake to make really the way i see it, thats what i mean but anyway this is not the important part of the topic so i wont bother much with it.


  245. And some white ppl seem to confuse me when they say dark course hair, and i think they really know the meaning but i’ve realised some whites refer dark course hair as full dark thick hair in a non black but seriously that is so not the meaning for those who use it in that context, course hair is what alot of full blacks like myself have, now that is a right context for the term course hair, really shouldnt make that mistake lol


  246. hi. I’m only 13 years old, and have already experienced quite a bit of racisism from where i live in the UK.
    What’s funny is, here in Uk im concisered ugly, whereas in Africa, where my family originates im considered beautiful and everyone is telling me that.
    I personally think its from where you live that changes what you see as beautiful. In gods eye everything is beautiful. But in the human eye, certain things are “ugly” becuase they look different from what your used to seeing.

    I also believe that this comment is racist and even if the writer doesnt know it they are going to get hello form it becuase i know many black people who, if they knew you, give you a punch or two.
    And white people are just as “ugly”. Some of them are fat and after walking a bit of some distance get all sweaty and stink from it, others have smal wispy hair that just sticks to there head rather than hang like HAIR does.

    SO…….WHY ARE WHITE PEOPLE SO UGLY?


  247. renzo. thats because africa is full of africans??
    i dont fancy chinese people but im sure they are found more attractive in china.

    To every person who straight away says it,s racism you are all idiots. i hate people playing the race card.

    im white.
    i have recently met a fantastic half indian half african girl who is stunning.

    before i met her and after i met her i still dont notice black girls very much and the ones i do i find no attraction to whatsoever. also not helped by the fact huge white women dont often wear skin tight clothes but i see plenty of black women doing so. i work in lewisham which is a very mixed area of many colours and nationalities.
    i have black friends and have had some for over 15years
    simply put in my life i can remember fancying 10 black girls at the most.

    i dont know why i dont find black girls attractive but i dont.
    so go on all you idiots say its because im racist.
    oh and one other thing i manage a company and half my team are black and the black half work alot damn harder than the white guys in my company.


  248. JK

    I live in London as well, borders of Richmond/Kew, maybe it has a lot to do with where you say you work or live. Lewisham is not the prettiest area is it? You’re not exactly going to be surrounded by the most refined black women in Lewisham are you, lets face that.
    I don’t think you’re necassarily racist, most black women don’t fancy white men so am sure they feel the same way.
    You seem to be confused. On one hand you find a mixed black/Indian girl stunning, on the other you don’t find black girls attractive. Then again on the next breath you profess to having fancied 10 black girls. Gee I can’t keep it straight, can you? *rolls eyes*


  249. I think American racism has to do with why black women are seen as ugly.

    I went to Europe(Austria, Germany, the Czech Republic) and I was well received. In not saying men were all over me but they smiled more, were more willing to converse, ect. I was in the airport and one very handsome man( not airport staff) helped my carry my cello to check in. That sort of thing would never happen in the US.

    Many want to reduce this to simple attraction. If you arent attracted to black women I aint mad at ya. But lets not pretend like media promotion of black women had nothing to do with how we are seen. My experience is men in America, regardless of race, dont want to look black women in the face let alone get to know/have romantic relationships with us.


  250. @ Jasmine,
    I’m not saying that Black women are unattractive. But NO ONE thinks that Fiona from Shrek is attractive.
    No one.


  251. Shy babes,

    Let me help out my Irish bro here…

    I dated a girl in college who was often mistaken for being a Latina, primarily “Mexican” since that was the predominant minority group in the area. She was 100% Irish, and even my friends (who are Mexican) gave her a hard time because not even they believed her.

    I myself, am also a “throwback” perhaps to the Black Irish.


  252. @MerriMay

    Yeah I caught on to that too thinking what is he on about very confusing keep your story straight bro.


  253. Y says,
    Many want to reduce this to simple attraction. If you arent attracted to black women I aint mad at ya. But lets not pretend like media promotion of black women had nothing to do with how we are seen. My experience is men in America, regardless of race, dont want to look black women in the face let alone get to know/have romantic relationships with us.

    laromana says,
    Y, thanks for your excellent analysis of why/how BW are viewed/treated in a racist manner in America.
    This has definitely been my experience and I’m so tired of it. It would be great if RACIST/ANTI-BW American men could just admit it and stop trying to justify their IGNORANT behavior.


  254. Huh? How did my name get up in this? (And try to spell my name right; that’s an annoying and foolish mistake.)


  255. Honestly I think Black Women(BW) are UGLY, very UGLY indeed. Whoever thinks otherwise is lying. BW physic, appearance, body language and behaviour makes it all in all a recipe for no-no go. —————-BW are NOT sexy, they are a total turn-off.—————–Look at their flat noses, slanted eyes, vast swollen lips, dry-curled hair, warehouse hips, huge breasts, hairy parts, rough skin voice…it’s all DARK!! ————– Is it anything sexy apealing or attractive at all? NO!!! That explains why BMales go for WWomen coz they do not like even themselves!!! Fact. Period.


  256. @ Air jet :

    How many black women have you actually seen?

    Because that possibly qualifies as the dumbest shit I’ve ever read.

    No problem with your personal taste; if you don’t fancy them, that’s fine.

    But you might want to consider the radical idea that your personal perception is not the same as reality. So just because you think it, does not mean it is so.

    Btw, I find plenty of black women extremely beautiful. And I ain’t lying.


  257. on Wed 31 Mar 2010 at 11:19:38 Leaveumthinking

    Im not going to even get mad at the above comment. I now expect this kind of nonsense from white people. Theyre all cowards anyway not one have enough balls to say this to a black persons face. They know theyll get a beatdown.


  258. It’s no nonsense but the TRUTH and nothing more than the whole Truth!! I understand Leaveumthinking you do not like it because you are ugly too but there is no need to launch insults to anybody who disagrees with you. ————— And in regards to say it in their black faces I do but if you are going to get aggressive coz it’s also part of your genes then I walk away. That’s the difference between being civilized and tolerant and being all the opposite sadly to say.—————- The sooner you come to terms with the truth the better for everybody.


  259. And in regards to say it in their black faces I do but if you are going to get aggressive coz it’s also part of your genes then I walk away. That’s the difference between being civilized and tolerant and being all the opposite sadly to say.

    So… You insult people and then run away like a coward?


  260. I am just describing what it looks like. Nothing to do with running away like a coward as you are doing to offend with that gross insult of yours. But of course unless I am not you, you can stay put and wait for the retribution. Now I see how wise you are. Sir, I respect your views but not your idiocy!


  261. That’s how you described it.

    Why do you care about black women anyway? I am sure they don’t care about you.


  262. Here we go again. When somebody does not like your opinion they just start making use of foul language. No wonder no-one likes ppl this way.
    And of course you alone and few more may like black ppl in this world that’s ok but u r not going to tell me what I should think of because the reality is most ppl don’t like blk people !! If you cannot accept it that’s your problem.
    Pls do not take me out of the context I am only talking in general terms and from my personal experience of being in a daily basis in continous contact with all kinds of ethnic minorities. Some ppl are more pleasing and affable than others for sure but about the attraction issue is all to do with manners, attitudes, smartness and of course the physical appearance one. So you are free to speak your mind but pls refrain from making abusive remarks coz ppl hate you.


  263. Honestly I think Black Women(BW) are UGLY, very UGLY indeed. Whoever thinks otherwise is lying. BW physic, appearance, body language and behaviour makes it all in all a recipe for no-no go. —————-BW are NOT sexy, they are a total turn-off.—————–Look at their flat noses, slanted eyes, vast swollen lips, dry-curled hair, warehouse hips, huge breasts, hairy parts, rough skin voice…it’s all DARK!! ————– Is it anything sexy apealing or attractive at all? NO!!! That explains why BMales go for WWomen coz they do not like even themselves!!! Fact. Period.

    Honestly I think White Women (WW) are UGLY, very UGLY indeed. Whoever thinks otherwise is lying. WW physic, appearance, body language and behaviour makes it all in all a recipe for no-no go. —————-WW are NOT sexy, they are a total turn-off.—————–Look at their pointy, witch-like noses, dead eyes, shrunken lips, limp hair, flat butts, prepubescent breasts, hairy parts, wrinkly skin (before 30), screechy voice…it’s all PASTY!! ————– Is it anything sexy apealing or attractive at all? NO!!!

    You’re a joke. So I had to let you see how plain idiotic you sound. Similar criticisms could be leveled at white women. Only an ignoramus would say that all women of a race are ugly.


  264. Yup, black men are beating down doors for these beauties:

    http://www.popcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/katemossnomakeup.jpg

    http://izismile.com/img/img2/20090611/makeup_37.jpg

    Get ‘em while they’re hot (which won’t be for long since they have a shelf life about 25 years at best)!


  265. on Wed 31 Mar 2010 at 13:11:23 Leaveumthinking

    It’s no nonsense but the TRUTH and nothing more than the whole Truth!! I understand Leaveumthinking you do not like it because you are ugly too but there is no need to launch insults to anybody who disagrees with you. ————— And in regards to say it in their black faces I do but if you are going to get aggressive coz it’s also part of your genes then I walk away. That’s the difference between being civilized and tolerant and being all the opposite sadly to say.—————- The sooner you come to terms with the truth the better for everybody.

    Do you really think I give a F*ck about what a punk ass b*tch such as yourself say about me? Youre nothing but a pu$$y hiding behind a computer screen.


  266. It is unfortunate that there are people who receive some sense of satisfaction by intentionally “hiding” behind an anonymous post that is most likely an outright lie — only to stir up a hornets nest. (Gee, what fun?) It would be great if most of these posters would not get a response, but here I am……


  267. Air jet is obviously suffering from constapation , and is sorly in need of releiving himself.

    That is about the most disgusting thing ive heard on here.

    Only a self hating creep could come up with crap like that


  268. @Natasha W and Leaveumthinking. I don’t know why but…I feel too much testosterone and anger over here. We all know the truth always hurt. I spoke in general terms without swearing but given how much hatred and dislike you two have in common in yourselves then I’ll pass it out.

    Congraulations!! You’ve just made urselves look even ugliest with ur obnoxious comments.


  269. What truth?

    You have diarea of the mouth, that isnt truth


  270. Stereotypical bull. Air Jet, get a life. No, seriously. If you don’t see how ugly and obnoxious you have made yourself look in these comments, you’re not worth the energy I’m exerting to type this comment out to you.


  271. OK, I’ll put out a couple of physical characteristics that many black women have and that I really like.

    1) I REALLY like curly, fluffy hair. I think it’s a sin when women straighten their hair. I think that hair that puffs out like a big, soft, fluffy cloud is the prettiest thing in the world.

    2) I think darker skin is, on the whole, prettier than lighter skin. Sure, there are exceptions and this also hardly qualifies as a fetish with me. But on the whole, all other things being equal, I’ll take darker skin over lighter skin, thanks.

    3) I think brown and amber eyes are prettier than blue, grey and green eyes. I ESPECIALLY like the “tiger eye” colored eyes we occasionally get down here in Brazil. Those are the most stunning eyes on the planet, for my money.

    4) High cheekbones. REALLY like those high cheek bones. This is not a specifically African trait (in fact, none of the above are), but you see it more often in blacks than whites.

    Butts, noses, lips… Frankly, I see all this as often among white people as black people. There are PLENTY of blacks with aquiline features if that’s what floats your boat, and plenty of whites with pug features, if you like that. Personally, I find both to be equally attractive – or not – depending on the rest of the context.


  272. BR – there really is no dialogue there. This person is simply fishing. If said person waits long enough, eventually they will get a bite. I doubt very seriously this person lives in a world so blind. This stuff is made up. A salesman selling B.S.


  273. Thad,

    What are “tiger eyes”?


  274. @islandgirl –

    Good question… If I understand what Thad is describing, it seems to be “honey”. (Olhos Cor de Mel) Except its that almost golden color with flecks that sparkle. I’ve seen people in the U.S. with this type of eye color, but moreso in Brazil. It’s like a blond honey color. They’re almost ‘golden’…. Neither brown, light brown or hazel, but something very different.

    Now, Thad??? Was I right, or are you talking about something else?


  275. “Tigereye” is a golden-brown striped stone.

    Yep, Coloruvluv.


  276. I just want to say a few things about that person who does not like black people. I think he has the right to say so but I condone any kind of verbal abusive language directed at any party for the sole fact that there is no agreement. I myself am not fond of dark beauties I’d rather choose blondes. It’s my choice although some brunettes sort of Latin are really cute and beautiful. The ones I feel no much interest coz attraction is weak I have to say are Afro women. Nothing against them but the chemistry is never there. Maybe tomorrow in another world…who knows.


  277. ^It’s fine if you have a preference — everyone does. But it’s not fine to disparage those that are not your preference.


  278. @Chris – you’re right. Individual preference is one thing, but spewing hatred for the sake of ‘shaking things up’ is a bit twisted.


  279. To me, its like a Pyromaniac setting a house on fire just to watch it burn. uh hello? Is anybody home? sheesh


  280. on Fri 2 Apr 2010 at 15:51:25 Leaveumthinking

    Honestly I think Black Women(BW) are UGLY, very UGLY indeed. Whoever thinks otherwise is lying. BW physic, appearance, body language and behaviour makes it all in all a recipe for no-no go. —————-BW are NOT sexy, they are a total turn-off.—————–Look at their flat noses, slanted eyes, vast swollen lips, dry-curled hair, warehouse hips, huge breasts, hairy parts, rough skin voice…it’s all DARK!! ————– Is it anything sexy apealing or attractive at all? NO!!! That explains why BMales go for WWomen coz they do not like even themselves!!! Fact. Period.

    Comments like this piss me off. Its okay to have a preference. All he had to say is I dont find black women attractive. But to go into detail like this and say that people who dont agree are lying. No other race of women are put down and talked about as much as black women.

    The question is when all these nasty things are said about us not one Black Man came to defend us. Your silence speaks louder than words.


  281. The question is when all these nasty things are said about us not one Black Man came to defend us. Your silence speaks louder than words.

    To be honest, I don’t know how many black men are here. It’s not an excuse, but I do think they are minority.


  282. on Fri 2 Apr 2010 at 17:08:20 Leaveumthinking

    Mira you might be right. Probaly not alot of black men read this blog.


  283. ^There are some (mynameismyname, tulio, abagond, Truth B. Told, Hathor, etc), but I think this blog has more women commenters for some reason. Anyway, I don’t think they saw the above post or thought it was too inane to respond to. I found the “Toure…” post more telling as far as words and actions go.


  284. Hathor is male?!?

    I believe Abagond wrote about this: his blog has more male lurkers, but female commenters.


  285. I think Hathor is female. Add Menelik Charles and Vindicator to Nathasha W’s list. :-)


  286. ^I could’ve sworn Hathor was male. Could be wrong though… hmmm.


  287. on Fri 2 Apr 2010 at 17:28:45 Leaveumthinking

    I dont know if I read that post. If I did I probaly came in at the end and just skimmed through it. Do you remember the title so I can read it?


  288. Oh, Hathor is female? I thought (s?)he made a comment that gave a reference to masculinity, but I guess not.

    Oh yeah, those two as well. But they aren’t regular commenters.


  289. Well, I assumed Hathor was female, because of the username.


  290. Leaveum, no, just pass on reading it. Nothing fruitful could come of doing so.


  291. on Fri 2 Apr 2010 at 17:30:32 Leaveumthinking

    Hathor is female her pic is on her blog.


  292. Mira, I get confused on the internetz, even with feminine/masculine names… I would always be thought of as male too, that’s why I started using names with “a” at the end, because even using other feminine names, people would assume I was a guy.


  293. She has a blog? *slaps forehead* You learn something new everyday.


  294. on Fri 2 Apr 2010 at 17:34:20 Leaveumthinking

    Lol okay Natasha Ill just take your word on it.


  295. Natasha W said:

    “I think this blog has more women commenters for some reason. Anyway, I don’t think they saw the above post or thought it was too inane to respond to. “

    When I saw that Air Jet comment, I rolled my eyes and figured him for a troll. His statement was almost self-refuting.

    This blog does have more female commenters, way more. As Mira pointed out, though, most lurkers are male. Which matches my offline experience too, by the way: women seem to talk way more than men.


  296. You have a strong female following Abagond because its uncommon online for a black male blogger to be such an unapologetic champion of black female beauty. Add race to that equation, and well, I’ve found someone who gets it.
    There’s none of the bashing of black women I find so popular with black male sites. That and the fact that you don’t seem to have a problem with black women dating either black or white men.
    Before I knew your race I presumed you to be a sock puppet of blacn2, lol. Whatever happened to him? I quite enjoyed his input :) one of my favorite commenters.


  297. blanc2 I meant


  298. The fact that many people think BW are unattractive has less to do about individual preference and more to do with cultural brainwashing.

    Someone mentioned the white women as beauty propoganda machine, most definitely this is true. A nordic beauty ideal prevails in western society – that is blonde hair, blue eyes and fair skin as being the pinnacle of white beauty.

    Naturally men with resources are going to go after the women that most closely resemble this ideal whether she is actually white or a close facsimile with the long flowing hair and the light tan skin or light eyes.

    These features are not intrisically beautiful. From what I’ve read about beauty science, what matters is symmetry and the appearance of health. Therefore you can have broad “black” features and still be stunning as long as those features are in proportion.

    A great example is the singer Rhianna. She has unquestionably broad west african features. Of course she comes with the cultural “bonus” of having light eyes and skin.
    Garcelle Beauvais and Kimberly Elise are other beauties with with broad features. It’s about proportion.

    But in our society we celebrate caucasianess in a woman because caucasians are seen the ideal. Long story short, black women are seen as less attractive because of racism and colorism.


  299. abagond, I’m practically mute in real life. I’m extremely quiet and introverted; it’s not uncommon for someone to say to me “Oh, so that’s what your voice sounds like.” I’ve always used the written word as my platform, rather than the spoken word.

    poetess, I was going to make an on-topic post saying something similar. Beauty follows power. If it had been Africans that had colonized foreign lands and established an “us and them” mentality, people would be holding up blackness as the ideal. But it just so happened to be mainly whites. Nothing intrinsically more beautiful about white women or white people. They’ve got their undesirable features just like any other group of people.


  300. i’m a mixed black women and can say in my personal opinion that people of all races can be attractive.
    but i still have opinions on attractiveness of races, which not everyone might share. they are not based on dating preferances just attraction eg. i find many arab men attractive but prefer to date another christian.

    I think that latino (i know its not a race), mixed race and arab people are most attractive. then inidan, south east asian, northern european (swedish, norwegian), east african, southern european (italian, spanish) and caribbean black people are also often attractive. least attractive on average i would say are middle european (british german white people), west african and east asian people.

    My opinions aside it would seem that black people, in particular black women (those who are dark skinned with more african features) are seen as less beautiful in society. the standard for black men does not appear to be high. they can look like akon and some woman will say they are sexy. whereas a black women has to look as attractive as lanisha cole or keisha white if they are dark skinned or moderately attractive if they are light skinned eg. vanessa and angela simmons to be considered attractive.

    I have also felt affected by this standard of beauty. black men have generally found me attractive. but many of them still seem to see white women in a higher regard in terms of beauty. as for white and mixed race men they seem to be hit and miss on being able to see beauty in women of colour. black men are generally most accepting of the beauty of black women, although some would make you think otherwise.


  301. I know this is an old blog but it caught my attention just now.

    Where I grew up and lived most of my life it’s almost the opposite. You’ll certainly find a few blokes who don’t like any dark skinned woman – or who don’t want to admit they do – but the majority of men I’ve talked to in my life about ‘things men talk about’ would never make the blanket statement that black women are ugly. It’s all relative as usual. There are beauties and mingers in all ethnic groups and we as humans do know very well how to differenciate above ‘racial’ considerations. Simply out of instinct. All else is brainwashing.

    Just as a trivial example, take the British soap Eastenders. I bet you any sum that more than 90% of blokes over here (any ethnic group) find characters like Chelsea, Sydney or Becca WAY more attractive than say Heather or Shirley. They would also have no issue to openly admit it. It’s actually a no-brainer.

    Apart from the physical attributes, in my native country France, black French women – especially of African origin, perhaps to a lesser degree “les Antillaises” – are actually considered less combative and more feminine than white French women who can be quite ‘hard to deal with’ at times… ;)


  302. ‘She looks the same in both countries, yet because in one country she is not seen as “black” she is more desirable to men than she is in the other country where she is seen as black. It is not the woman or her looks that have changed, just her race – and the racism that is applied to her’

    one droppism is also becoming more prevelant is european countries. when i was in the U.S I actually felt that to the contrary my being mixed and having lighter skin was more coveted there than it is is England. I was also mistaken for latino a couple of times when in the U.S. I have come across latinos in the U.K that also seem to like the way I look and make comments which pertain that I am not black to them, such asking me what my ethnic background is. With most white British people in the U.K however I am a black woman or at least not treated that differently.

    It is the latinos that more often than black or white people who object to seeing mixed or brown people as black.


  303. I find it hilarious that some of these comments are so racist. Did these people actually google “Black women are ugly” or something and find this… which is fishy in the first place. ANY dude who has to go online to ask anything about Black women is thinking about us too much! I’m 21 and I’m not ugly and I don’t even feel the need to explain how because thats stupid s–t. I’m just not and I know Black women aren’t either. Thats bullsh*t. To me, the whole “Black women are unattractive” thing is also felt by other groups of MEN. What I mean is, they don’t go around saying “Black women are hot” because Black women are stereotyped as those fat, weave wearing, loud, ghetto girls and thats the image that comes to mind. So it is the media in that way. As well as the racism and social tension in America between Whites and Blacks….

    I grew up in an UPPER CLASS (this has a point) White neighborhood. It was seriously about 99% White. From preschool/elem. school I had boys who had crushes on me. Not all of them, but quite a few since they were all blonde kids and I was the ONLY Black kid there. In Middle School my classmate, Donnie, had a huge crush on me. At the time I was trying to find my identity in a way through my Blackness and used to bring Hip Hop magazines to school. One was XXL. I was innocent to it at the time, but Donnie would borrow my magazines for days and him and his friends would gather around to look at the girls inside. Anyway, that became our thing. I would supply the guys in my class with my XXL, soft porn magazines full of big bootied Black/Latina girls. Even though some of these guys later on bought Maxim magazine themselves (full of LESS THREATENING white girls). As I got older I realized they would never go to the store and get these magazines themselves because that seems.. well… weird. Guys are NOT SUPPOSED to like Black girls. Its not socially accepted yet. Especially where I lived. Those men came from families with money and status. Blacks in America are still associated with low status, so its seen as crazy for any rich white dude to say “I love Black girls!” Lol. Trust me, they don’t – EVER!… However, there are MANY men who talk the talk and don’t walk the walk. I was never given the impression growing up that being black = ugly. My mom is very dark skinned (even by American standards) with African features and an African female body. I don’t think men ever cared that she was with my dad, or had kids, or that they were MARRIED themselves, they would hit on her. All the time. She went to a business meeting with my dad and when my father left to use the restroom, the investor asked my mom why should was with my dad, he told her he could treat her much better and how beautiful he thought she was. He was married to a White woman. I’ve seen too many guys like him in my life to know Black girls in reality aren’t any different than others. However, white girls are SUPPOSED to be pretty, and many aren’t at all, and Black girls are SUPPOSED to be ugly, and many aren’t at all. In the end it all balances out just the same. I’m still always the prettiest, or one of the prettiest girls in my classes at my college, and I’m also always one, or usually the only Black girl there.

    I could go on and on and on with this, trust me, growing up around men who are seen as the pinacle of status and success, Men who all desired a blonde, white trophy wife, and a nice car and house – and yet seeing many who still, despite medias apparent push that “black girls are ugly” were sexually attracted to some Black girls, I’ve realized that it just isn’t true. I’ve lived a very sheltered life, but when Obama was running I remember actually sitting on my bed and wondering to myself for the FIRST time in my life “what does it mean to be a Black girl in America today” because I knew I was getting older and about to step out into a world full of stereotypes. I didn’t grow up knowing a world where Black girls were ugly at all, I grew up in a world where Black girls were off limits. Too different. Taboo. Bad. Social pressures pushed men to like the skinny blondes and NEVER like the “ghetto, loud” Black girls. However, things are never what they seem. The image of the “beautiful white woman” is just as wrong as the image of the “ugly black girl”… the average white girl where I grew up got her FIRST botox appointment by the age of 27! (it was reported in the newspaper) Nose jobs and implants as graduation presents, and were starving themselves by Middle school.

    Hope I cleared something up. Because this is my view of things…. Not all men are into Black girls, but the percentages are no different from others. As many white guys as I was around, my crush from elementary school to High school was the ONLY black guy around, he was biracial. I rarely see a white guy who is cute, and I see many many white guys. Even more, I rarely see a white girl who I think is very pretty. Overall, most people look average. Beauty is rare for any race, which is why its cherished.


  304. on Tue 1 Jun 2010 at 05:49:25 Leaveumthinking

    @ Becca I agree with your entire statement


  305. Oh another thing (since I’m somehow still on this site, haha). I feel the idea of Black women as being not “desirable” as mates also ties directly to the idea that we’re promiscuous. Its always been strange to me that our stereotypes seem to straddle the fence between lonely, undesirable women, (Thank you media, for pushing this to DEATH recently!) and whores who sleep with every guy out there (which the media also pushes to an extreme – Maury, rap songs…). Its because the two are the same thing. Black women aren’t supposed to be wives or anything close and in most men’s minds, we’ll never be either as far as they know. So it creates a society where men themselves have reduced us to whores and promiscuous, sex crazed women, because thats all they would want from us.

    I found a website online that was entitled “All the ways to Identify a Slut” and all the reasons were innocent enough, until I came across one reason that just boldly stated “She’s Black” and the blogger (who was a white guy) pretty much backed up his statement by saying “Enough with this Politically Correct bullsh*t, lets just get this out there. In my experience, and all of my friend’s experience, Black girls get around more than any other women.” And that was it. Not debatable or anything. To him and most of the men making comments back, BW were whores. (to make it worse, one Black woman answered by saying he was wrong, which set off a chain reaction from men posting STATS on stds and teen pregnancy and abortion rates like they had to believe that bw were exactly what the blogger said!). So, I went on a website and asked if people really thought BW were promiscuous, and most of the answers said yes. Many men being sarcastic said “No, seeing women with 4 kids in their teens would never make me think that.” :/ Which is stupid, because many BW who have kids out of weblock didn’t end up that way because they were too busy sleeping with every guy and don’t know which is the father… Its moreso because many Black men themselves have bought into the idea that Black women aren’t meant to be wives, and are therefore “undesirable” so they have kids with more than a few different ones.

    This is another reason many Black women might feel they aren’t attractive, or are ugly, because they have a hard time finding a guy. When in reality, its not that Black girls are just that ugly that no guy wants one, but that Black girls aren’t seen as good mates (because of racist stereotypes). Just look at Asian women, who were stereotyped as flat faced and “alien looking” just years ago. Now, they’re put above white women by many white men, and why? Most of the reasons guys list has more to do with their qualities as a mate than their physical beauty. I think many guys who love the Asian thing just promote their beauty because they are with them, so they want to make them appear to be the best in every way… So are they prettier than White women?? No, because no race looks better than any other.

    Okay, I’m done now. Lol.
    *takes deep breathe and passes out*


  306. on Sat 5 Jun 2010 at 06:27:00 TopNochBrother

    Straight Shooter
    Not being black myself, I can only guess that black men find black women attractive.
    From a white male perspective, it is considered a downgrade and disgace to be seen with a black woman. No I don’t find them attractive on any level. I would consider this the ultimate form of humiliation. There is nothing honerable about it. Those who say otherwise are not telling the truth. I keep hearing this talk about white men being cowards for not wanting black women. Incorrect, we are avoiding you! As for these stories of white slave owners who raped black women back in the days before any of my ancestors even came to this country; all I can say is that those slave owners were very sick individuals. I am very glad I’m not related to any of them.

    Let me make it clear. I happy that you don’t like black women that’s you choice but to say that all white men feel as you do is like me saying all black men feel as I do. It’s not possible you can be the voice for all white men sorry. NOW if you say some may I could believe that.
    I nery see a BW/WM relationship where the guy held his head down in shame and I’ve see plenty. For me it’s all about attitude. Sure I like I eye candy but if the core of the candy rotten it doesn’t make a difference how she looks or what race she is really. I date two white women in my life and they put me off the whole thing. They are just as capable of being snotty and rude as a black female. It’s just not well publicized. That why stereotypes attribute to white people don’t stick as hard.

    When you talk about being shameful that tell more about you than the female your with. That’s a personal issue. That’s like me hating snakes and refused to believe that anyone could like them even when i watch the guy wrangle them on Animal Planet. Clearly the man like snakes or he would be touching but because it not how I feel. It can’t be how he feels. That’s perverse.


  307. on Sat 5 Jun 2010 at 06:47:14 TopNochBrother

    Another thing it I believe the breakdown between Black Men and Women is a lack of respect,communiciation and trust. The Black Man afraid that he’s never going to be able to satisfy her needs and be nagged into oblivion,or that she’s hostile hoodrat,or that she’s a goldigger trying to play him out.
    The Black Women afraid that he’s going to cheat on her,lie to her,physically abuse her,leave her or dog her out.
    It’s really a lack of trust on both sides. Nowindays we go into a BM/BF relationships with a expiration date or he/she turns into what I’d afraid they be and when you live in fear you go looking for something and you find it. Say for example a Black women getting angry about something she rightfully should be angry about. The male will think ” I knew she was act like this”
    and say The Black man has to lies to her because ever time he tries tell her something she overreacts. She’s thinking” I new he was a liar”. That the root of it we don’t listen to each other anymore. These days it like dating you adversary. That never works.
    Most black women I know are single by choice. Simply for the fact they don’t like the idea of having a man’s input on the way the live their lives.


  308. on Sat 5 Jun 2010 at 06:54:52 TopNochBrother

    Oh yeah and in my opinion most black women are beautiful. Some are not attractive but thats. Really race. I wish women stop looking for validation in magazines and movies. I never got told I was all that handsome but I know I am and I didn’t need to hear it a thousand times to feel this way.


  309. TopNochBrother,
    Since you’re NOT a BW STOP PRETENDING that you can speak for BW.

    BW are NORMAL, HUMAN WOMEN with all of the SAME desires as women of ALL RACES.
    BW are NOT UNFEELING ANIMALS, INVISIBLE ALIENS, or an embodiment of the ANTI-BW/RACIST STEREOTYPES that American society/media has projected/continues to project on them.
    BW don’t appreciate the HISTORICAL ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE that has/continues to be directed at them in American society/media.

    Because BW are HUMAN BEINGS we are JUSTIFIABLY SADDENED/ANGERED by the NEVER ENDING, UNCALLED FOR ANTI-BW ABUSE we’ve received/continue to receive from EVERYONE in American society .

    Because BW are NORMAL HUMAN WOMEN we desire to be LOVED, CHERISHED, DESIRED, PURSUED, COMMITED TO, and RESPECTED.


  310. Racism is definitely apart of it, America especially oversees doesn’t not truly show Blacks, and when they do its far from in a positive light, and that can always shape a person’s thoughts. The Willie Lynch letter I read back in middle school, and it still rings true and its sad. There are women of every race beautiful and otherwise, but there is more negatives tied to Black women from what I have seen heard, and witnessed. Those hwo say racism does not play apart needs to look back at history and trace it to the now.


  311. I’m a black woman who was lucky to be born attractive, but I don’t think black women are generally attractive. I wish they were, because I would love to feel proud of us, but often times I feel embarassed by the group I belong to. I know this is mean but it’s how I feel; I’m not trying to hurt anyone. I think it’s because their genetics aren’t good first off. They have more african and it looks really harsh, I think maybe the slave masters took the least attractive folks out of africa and brought them here. Unfortunately, they could mate with a lot of attractive men, so they were forced to perpetuate bad look genetics, particularly for their daughters. Unattractive women have it much harder mating to improve their line, so this is the result we have today and it’s sad. Also, most black women don’t believe in thinness, when it is valued by men internationally, please don’t count the exceptions in Africa. Men the world over like beautiful thin women, right now Japanese women are leading for thinness and they look gorgeous. I have no idea when the one thing bw could control in terms of looks, they don’t and they look disgusting with rolls and sloppy bodies. Then their style is really bad. Often times they’re wearing hair weaves and many don’t even take care of someone else’s hair on their head, but most of all hair weaves make them look like really cheap hookers…I mean like $5.00 hookup girls. I know poverty is an issue, I don’t have much money myself but I go to the goodwill to be classic and classy clothing. I can buy a nice button cotton shirt and nicely fitted khakis for less than 8 bucks. This is simple yet very becoming and it affects how I’m viewed and treated. Also, most black women don’t look neat. Their hair is disheveled and their nails are well groomed – often times they are fake, graffiti laddened and gross looking. Natural and well kept nails look most appealing to the eye.
    Also, a lot of times their skin doesn’t look healthy. It’s like they’re not taking good care of it…either it’s super oily or it just doesn’t look healthy. Lastly, it’s how they carry themselves. They don’t appear modest and classy. I didn’t come out of Beverly Hills either, but it doesn’t take anything to get a book and look on Youtube on proper ettiquette, dress, and speech. Those attributes make a women irresistible when she has them, regardless of her race. Class has nothing to do with where you came from, it has to do with where you want to go. All of these things make black women really unappealing to say the least. I hope we can collectively get it together because I would love to look everywhere and feel proud of my sisters, hopefully that day will come before I’m dead.


  312. Candied I couldn’t even read ur post completely cause of the nonsense it held. Thats how u feel? Then u need to reprogram urself, Blacks r ugly cause they have African features? What in the world? African features r gorgeous, its ppl like u that are so deeply brain washed aka white washed that continue nonsense such as hating on one another and completely disrespecting one another. I truly hope you do not spread this type of thinking to any children u may have heck, just don’t have any. Another thing its not only Black women that wear weave women of all races and cultures wear weave, oh so hard to believe huh? Thinness is attractive to each their own, but women who r naturally curvy should not have to become thin to be attractive or w/e else. The rest of the world fell under white supremacy and still carry the effects of such a thing so most of them will praise anything White or close to White. SMDH


  313. Candid,

    Black women are like all other women – there are attractive and not so. I think that it may be conditioning that makes you believe black women are not.

    Regarding thinness, I am so HAPPY to see more black women taking the initiative to become more healthy. That is good news!


  314. The majority of African American women exhibit masculine traits such as large hands and feet, tougher skin, and a pugnacious attiude. The general facial structure of African American women tends to exhibit an undersized chin and oversized cheeks, that is in stark contrast to women of other races who have fully developed chins and tight cheeks. African Americans also have tough hair which is usually not considered to be attractive in women.  


  315. Dr Darner:

    How do you measure the toughness of skin and hair?


  316. Doc Darner apparently hasn’t spend much time in the trailer parks of the U.S. or in the rural white south. There, women are well-known for their delicate nature and retiring, lady-like attitudes. Not to mention their porcelain-like beauty…. :D


  317. Dr Darner, why don’t you try some ex-lax as you’re full of shush-a-tee.


  318. Who says that black women are ugly? I think they are good lookin. But hey, thats just me. And I’m white. My country is white for six months a year. Because of the snow. But I still think black women are good lookin.


  319. Personally, I just love women in general, but in my heart the black woman is like a special queen to me, because, being a black man myself, I feel that I can “relate” to her…I know, it’s a vague, silly explanation, but I can’t really think of a better word. However, that does not mean I would totally ignore a white woman, or an asian woman, or an indian woman, and so on. The thing with me is that colour doesn’t bother me when determining beauty: a woman is a woman to me, and my instincts and passions couldn’t care less. Saying that, along with the non-existence of absolute beauty, there’s no such thing as absolute ugliness with women either. I just can’t see how someone would consider all black women are completely unattractive: I’ve seen many ugly women of other races.

    Black woman aren’t ugly. I think the notion is just one of the many faces of rascism, which may stem from just downright hatred. And when you hate something that much, you’re very likely to do anything to crush it out of existence. So you invent lies, sterotypes, false idealogies, etc. Rascism is similiar to bullying; children may pick on a child to make themselves feel superior, picking out any little thing to use against them. It makes them feel powerful and superior, and for some reason people have a strong passion to be superior than the rest, though in the end we all return to dust, and who is superior to whom then? Would white dust be superior to black dust, for instance. Deep in its core, rascism is not only ignorant, but pathetic, and it saddens me that, seeing how the world is going, it seems we’ll never be free from it. (A pessimistic thought, yes, but who here can honestly say the world is becoming a better place and “ebony and ivory are living in perfect harmony”?).

    Secondly, a person can have his or her preference. As I said before, I’m more likened to black women and try not to swallow the crap the media continously forces down people’s throats. It’s when that person blatantly insults other races that is a dangerous thing, usually with sterotypes, regarding the race as if everyone’s the same. And you have to realise that rascism is pretty stupid and contradictory: the “all black woman are ugly” idea is pure bull to me, since why the hell are there tanning procedures to darken the skin, a trait considered ugly? Why do plastic surgery on the lips to make them look like black lips, if black lips are considered to be like a monkey’s? Why do I see some white girls with plaits and some white men with dreadlocks, if the styles come from a type a hair that is considered unappealing? Sometimes I think it’s jealousy (something that can be confused with mere curosity, so I have to be careful with that opinion), and with the pride of the superior-complex, being jealous of someone who you consider is supposed to be lesser than you completely makes your racial ideologies meaningless. So, obviously, you’ll have to deny it. That’s rascism for you; doesn’t make any sense, but is obviously taken to heart by a significant amount of people around the world.

    So, in my opinion, black woman aren’t all ugly: there’s just no such thing as a perfect race (thinking on it, it’s very true history repeats itself. Didn’t the same propoganda happen to the jews in WW 2?). If we all believe ourselves to be intelligent and wise people, we musn’t place our complete trust in what the media says as if it is God. And we certainly shouldn’t let it sculpt how we view other people, and let racism tear us apart. We’re supposed to be the most intelligent beings on this planet for goodness sake; in nature, you’ve never seen white pigeons discrimating grey pigeons, have you? Or a white horse never drinking from the same river with a black horse? They are crude examples, I understand, but they are supposed to demonstrate how foolish people can be sometimes, that even animals seem to have more sense than them.

    I’m blabbering on now, so I’ll just end it in that: no, not all black woman are ugly, saying that is just ignorant. You may find some ugly, but that doesn’t mean they all are, just like with women of other races. You can have a preference with personal reasons, but saying things like “they look like monkeys” or “their skin isn’t as good as white skin” is just stupid, and no wonder people would class it as rascism.
    That’s just my opinion: some may agree, some may not, that’s just how the world is. My eyes see women as women, people who are worth more than gold, but the beauty and strengh of a black woman is just something I cannot ignore or live without. I love you all out there.


  320. Lol J are you British??


  321. Nicely put J!


  322. a woman is a woman to me

    Funny. A woman is a human being to me. I try to remind myself of that as much as I try to remind myself daily that white supremacy is bullshit.


  323. “Why do plastic surgery on the lips to make them look like black lips, if black lips are considered to be like a monkey’s?”

    That’s how they were thought of until the late ’90s or so when Angelina Jolie hit it big. She really made it not only acceptable but even chic to be a white(-ish) person with full lips.


  324. But monkeys have really THIN lips…


  325. Yes, it’s been noted that whites actually have more physical similarities to monkeys than blacks do (e.g. lip thickness, hair texture, skin color). I’m not exactly sure where the association between blacks and monkeys comes from. Perhaps dark skin is thought similar to the dark fur of monkeys?


  326. Actually, Nell Painter has a pretty good explanation for that in “The History of White People”.


  327. J says,
    Personally, I just love women in general, but in my heart the black woman is like a special queen to me, because, being a black man myself, I feel that I can “relate” to her…I know, it’s a vague, silly explanation, but I can’t really think of a better word. However, that does not mean I would totally ignore a white woman, or an asian woman, or an indian woman, and so on.

    laromana says,
    Sadly there are men of ALL races who do TOTALLY IGNORE BW because they’re Black, regardless.


  328. @ MerriMay

    Yeah, I’m from Britain :). Did you determine that from how I wrote?

    @ Thaddeus

    Yes, that’s what I mean by rascism something that doesn’t make any sense. Not that I mean you should suddenly regard those with thin lips looking like monkeys: no one should be using such an insult. I’m saying that some of the many parts of rascism stem from basic stupidity that makes you just wonder where is all this hate coming from.


  329. @ laromana

    Yes, I agree with you there, and I strongly feel that it is to do with how the media presents black women. The media is a very powerful tool, especially music and television. I only just recently realised just how warped my perception about women in general truely was, since from a very early age I had been blasted by the ideals of the media. At a young age, your brain is soaking up things like a sponge since its hungry for knowledge, but its so easy to warp knowledge that it makes it easy for the media to imbed sterotypes and sometimes flat-out rascism in people, sometimes without them even realising it.


  330. @ J

    I know you’re a fellow Londoner, your writing style is a giveaway, it was the UnBritish emotion in the last post that had me scratching my head there LOL


  331. @ MerriMay
    :) My writing style can be misleading, but not all Londeners write like me, so you can’t always tell. (Though I’m surprised I’m that obvious). I just ended up writing like this. If you talked to me directly, the accent would be obvious, but the words I would use would be very different, nothing like how I write. I wouldn’t be bothering with long words like ‘idealogies’ and ‘perception’ when having a simple conversation.

    UnBritish emotion in the last post? Where’s that?


  332. Well your declaration of your love for black women, what’s in your heart etc, that was personal, come on, even you know that is as far from stiff upper lipped as it gets!! You write facts that you detach yourself from usually, very British!!
    Put it this way, unless you put he he he, one can’t tell if you’re having a laugh or not? lol


  333. Oh okay I get you. Personally, I find that most eople in England prefer to sugercoat stuff like rascism rather than face it. You may see this as stiff upper lip; British people won’t because, well, they’re from Britain. Some of us, like me, don’t have the same mentality, which may seem odd to how other places view the ‘British culture’.


  334. By the way someone else on this site is using the name J, way before I started to, so I’ll use JH instend so there’s no confusion.


  335. Thank you.


  336. Oh, it was JH making those posts. I was wondering what sort of koolaid J was drinking when I saw “Personally, I just love women in general…” :D


  337. Yes, it’s been noted that whites actually have more physical similarities to monkeys than blacks do (e.g. lip thickness, hair texture, skin color). I’m not exactly sure where the association between blacks and monkeys comes from. Perhaps dark skin is thought similar to the dark fur of monkeys?

    Oh, sh* that’s unintentionally hilarious. Some people do look like monkeys whatever their race, could that be because we share 98% of their genes and we are cousins? LOL.


  338. okey i think that i’ve got this figured out after spending hours reading this blog.

    Through out history, starting from africa, black woman have HAD to be strong both mentally and physically. Hence strong black woman have had an evolutionary advantage and have been able to reproduce and care for their young.

    This has resulted in the strong, more manly features that you talk about. They have then passed these features to their children. However, on top of that they have also taught their children to be head strong and not take any bull** from anyone. A typical black woman can both be mother and father to her child, no problem.

    But, the world has changed. Life is easier and so these strong features are no longer top priority. If you look at any persons weather female or male from well of backgrounds, you notice that they have smoother, less tough features (an example is a BW friend of mine, her parents have always been well well off and she has smooth facial features as well has hands etc) . what i’m saying is that alot of say white people have been liberated from hard labour for a long time now. therefore they are now softer, less tough.

    so, in time the tougher look and atttitude of black woman will quickily fade and there is only one way up in terms of black woman attractiveness.

    in summary, black woman are attractive in thier own way due to selective pressures of previous environment. attitude plays a big part of a black woman’s attractiveness.


  339. I get that you’re trying to analyze this intelligently and based on reason. But you’re reasoning from a false worldview premise.

    Black women (African or otherwise) have not had to be harder edge or “stronger” than other women. Black women are like women anywhere else. Some of them are strong, and some of them are not. They are just women, like in your ethnicity.

    Evolution hasn’t formed Black women to be any manlier than other women and a closer look with eyes open (looking past the stereotypes) will show you that there are as many, slender, fine-featured, and delicate, Black women as there are White.

    Go to Abagond’s other site and look at a variety of Black women one after another and see of they really look manlier, or stronger, or evolutionarily unevolved. Really go through 50 or 100 models to get a reasonable sampling

    http://blackbeautyoftheday.blogspot.com/


  340. king,
    i agree that there are many black females who are fine featured and delicate as you put it. But, this thread is about the stereotype that black women are ugly.

    woman often base their attractiveness on their ability to attrack male attention and it cannot be ignored that in America black women(amoung other women), collectively attract the least males from all other backgrounds.

    why?


  341. water says,
    This has resulted in the strong, more manly features that you talk about. They have then passed these features to their children. However, on top of that they have also taught their children to be head strong and not take any bull** from anyone. A typical black woman can both be mother and father to her child, no problem.

    But, the world has changed. Life is easier and so these strong features are no longer top priority. If you look at any persons weather female or male from well of backgrounds, you notice that they have smoother, less tough features (an example is a BW friend of mine, her parents have always been well well off and she has smooth facial features as well has hands etc) . what i’m saying is that alot of say white people have been liberated from hard labour for a long time now. therefore they are now softer, less tough.

    so, in time the tougher look and atttitude of black woman will quickily fade and there is only one way up in terms of black woman attractiveness.

    in summary, black woman are attractive in thier own way due to selective pressures of previous environment. attitude plays a big part of a black woman’s attractiveness.

    laromana says,
    water, I’m not sure what your TRUE INTENTIONS are in posting these comments, but they ARE NOT TRUE and perpetuate MANY ANTI-BW LIES, MYTHS, and STEREOTYPES.

    Please get your facts straight and LEARN to view BW as the NORMAL, HUMAN WOMEN that we are.


  342. water, “manly” is very subjective. I don’t think the average black women’s features are any manlier than others (and that evolution theory seems pretty ridiculous, honestly; black women have not been made to be “strong). It is stereotypes and a Eurocentric lens that make you view them that way. Consider that every group of women can be seen as having manly features, depending on the point of view:

    White women: Chiseled jaws, sharp noses, pronounced nose bridge, thin lips. All of these features are traditionally masculine.

    Asian women: Smaller eyes, flatter backsides, less pronounced hips. All of these features are traditionally masculine.

    Ditto for every group of men and “feminine” traits.


  343. Okey, hold on
    i feel misunderstood. I personally don’t view black women any less attractive. In fact I wouldn’t even go as far as to say that any human being is ugly.

    We are simply different.

    Going back on the comment of black women being tougher that females of other races. I believe this to be true. I’m not talking about 1 or 10 women that i know, but on a larger scale.

    In the US and UK black people are a minority, however if you travel to africa where they are the majority this fact will be blately obvision.
    Just by looking at BW you can make a pretty good assumption about how long they’ve been in a country like US.
    thats all I am saying. Its an observation. I could be wrong.

    keep in mind that a person is a person but here WE ARE TALKING STEREOTYPES.


  344. I’ve been to Africa multiple times and live in the U.S. and I don’t think that black women are any “tougher” (then again, I wasn’t looking around to see if the black women in these places were “tough”). Different cultures foster different attitudes, but clearly every black woman worldwide doesn’t participate in the same culture.

    Once you have decided on a perspective, you will find ways to confirm it.


  345. @water

    Im guessing tough=broad with regards to features. Again, Natasha W is right about you view. If you are associated “tough”/”masculine” features with typical West African features you are using a Euro-centric lens to judge black attractiveness. The same way you made up that theory about black women developing “tough” features a Black man can say the harsh conditions in Europe(or Asian or wherever) has led to thin lips and chiseled features that he sees as masculine on women.

    People are individuals, some women are masculine and some arent.


  346. I get the “manly” point. obviously not a good choice of wording.

    By tough I mean “elephant” tough (beware: metaphore!)
    An elephant can be the curviest animal in all the universe but we can all agree its as tough as hell.
    this is a combination of the attitude as well as the resilience.


  347. BW are not ugly!


  348. Water, what you are dealing with is a stereotype that Black women are more aggressive, harder edged, tougher, carry more attitude, and are physically stronger, (as a rule) are better fighters, etc.

    The stereotype is applied to both Black males and Black females. It is a racial stereotype about Black people in general. The difference is that what is seen as a positive when applied to males, is seen as a negative when applied to females. The toughness, the strength, the attitude, and the physical prowess. All of this works to make Black men more attractive, to many women, in spite of all the other negative stereotypes about them. However, these same myths make Black women less appealing, because they are primarily masculine traits.

    Now what you have to understand is that these are JUST STEREOTYPES. It is not based on reality. The exact reverse stereotype is applied to Asian peoples. The general ethnic group is seen as feminine, and thus, the women come across as appealing to the mainstream —as witnesses by all the WM/AF couplings—while Asian guys are depicted as smaller, weaker, softer, shyer, more feminine—as witnessed by the low number of AM/WF couples—This is why Asian same problem, statistically, as Black females.

    But again, understand that this is all based on false perceptions and stereotyping. If you really begin to look past the stereotype, you will see that many Asian guys are quite masculine. Asian height is not that much shorter (when averaged) than Anglo height. These ideas are an illusion, and one that hurts people, and puts them at a purposeful disadvantage.


  349. king
    Steorotyping is human nature. Our brains are constantly trying to make sense of the world. Putting things in compartments, adjusting these compartments based on the evidence we gather from our own specific reality.

    much like the way we view images. we pick up maybe 2 specific points of an object. The brain then fills in the blanks based on past imagery. We simply don’t have enough time to anylyse everything hence we build stereotypes. they are however, based on SOMETHING. this something maybe be the clue as to why there is this stereotype.

    BW are not ugly, but who wants a stereotype such as that hanging over their heads?


  350. water says,
    king
    Steorotyping is human nature. Our brains are constantly trying to make sense of the world. Putting things in compartments, adjusting these compartments based on the evidence we gather from our own specific reality.

    much like the way we view images. we pick up maybe 2 specific points of an object. The brain then fills in the blanks based on past imagery. We simply don’t have enough time to anylyse everything hence we build stereotypes. they are however, based on SOMETHING. this something maybe be the clue as to why there is this stereotype.

    laromana says,
    water,
    What most of us on this post are trying to tell you is that the “BW are stronger/more masculine” notion is a RACIST ANTI-BW LIE/MYTH/STEREOTYPE that DEFEMINIZES BW.

    This RACIST/ANTI-BW STEREOTYPE is NOT based on TRUTH/REALITY but on notions from slave owners/others who used it to justify various heinous crimes of violence/abuse (rape, child sex abuse, etc.) against BW.


  351. Steorotyping is human nature.

    Cowardice is human nature too. When threatened with danger, we have an instant flight response. All of us have felt this at one time or another. Yet we universally admire people who overcome that very natural urge, and run into a burning building to save a stranger, or risk bullets to protect a fallen comrade.

    Human nature is not the same as a programmed instinct. Our higher senses often must overcome our most basic urges and primeval responses.


  352. water says,
    woman often base their attractiveness on their ability to attrack male attention and it cannot be ignored that in America black women(amoung other women), collectively attract the least males from all other backgrounds.

    why?

    laromana says,
    water, BW in America have historically faced extreme ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE promoted by American culture/media. There has NEVER been ANYTHING WRONG with BW in and of themselves.
    We are NORMAL, HUMAN WOMEN like ANY women of ANY race.

    Given the continued prevalence of ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE in America, it’s not surprising that BW “attract the least males from all other backgrounds”.


  353. @ Water

    Sounds a bit like your “trolling” for bites here. Chumming the waters??? Perhaps I’m wrong, but your generalizations seem a bit disengenuous.


  354. stereotypes = bad i get the point.

    however

    king
    i agree
    Our higher senses often must overcome our most basic urges and primeval responses.

    however stereotypes have had an evolutionary advantage the same way the cowardly instinct of “flight” has many times saved lives maybe more often that the bravery of running into a burning building.

    I’m not excusing sterotypes, what i’m trying to say is that lets not dismiss them…

    if you were aggressive, harder edged, tougher, carried more attitude, and were a better fighter should you be called ugly?


  355. Dismissing stereotypes is saying that they don’t matter, or that they don’t exist. However, disempowering stereotypes is simply seeing them for what they are and understanding that they are not objective truths.

    As for evolutionary advantages, that’s a tricky subject to nail down. If you mean by that, every advantage that brings benefit to you and/or your group, then I think you will that it is hard to define both “advantage” and “your group.”

    Perhaps when you say “stereotype,” you mean mass categorization or precognitive assessment. But those are not really the same thing.


  356. If we are talking about the media/masses here the truth is there are so many factors here to why BW are not portrayed as beautiful by the media/masses. It’s not just here in America, many black people who travel to Asian countries suffer antipathy, whereas whites are worshiped and celebrated. I would be considered an honor for some Asians to intermarry with whites, but a disgrace with blacks. Light skin, but not necessarily all European features, is coveted by many Asian populations so skin any darker than their own is frowned upon. Not to mention skin lightening is becoming ever more prevelent in Africa as Africans begin to despise their darker skin.

    African features only feature in men’s magazines when subtly mixed in with white features, think Adriana’s bronze skin, Angelina’s full lips. White men see them as white women not of mixed hertiage. Now both women are not fully European by blood but thats about as African as the media wants women to be. With a few tokens featuring the likes of a spread with either Halle Berry or Gabreille Union once every 3 years.

    Black women cannot change what the media thinks. But we can change what we think. Being a confident *individual* makes all the difference in the world. Seeing past our own skin helps others see past it too. I am 1/4 black (Barbadian) and even though I don’t see many girls with features like me as (I am olive skinned not white, gray eyes not blue, darker blond hair not beach blond) epitomised as the object of beauty on TV when it comes to real life experiences I have never had a problem with people thinking I am ugly or unattractive due to my black hertiage because I know I am beautiful and how black or white I am has nothing to do with it. I see me as gorgeous so who cares about the rest of the world! The media discrimates on any women who doesn’t look like Megan Fox… Being white is simply not enough.


  357. Sara says,
    Black women cannot change what the media thinks. But we can change what we think. Being a confident *individual* makes all the difference in the world. Seeing past our own skin helps others see past it too. I am 1/4 black (Barbadian) and even though I don’t see many girls with features like me as (I am olive skinned not white, gray eyes not blue, darker blond hair not beach blond) epitomised as the object of beauty on TV when it comes to real life experiences I have never had a problem with people thinking I am ugly or unattractive due to my black hertiage because I know I am beautiful and how black or white I am has nothing to do with it. I see me as gorgeous so who cares about the rest of the world! The media discrimates on any women who doesn’t look like Megan Fox… Being white is simply not enough.

    laromana says,
    In an ideal world, ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE could be destroyed by simply having BW be confident individuals who see themselves as beautiful but, unfortunately, that’s NOT how it works in the real world.

    BW/PRO-BW ADVOCATES MUST ACTIVELY work to CONFRONT/DESTROY the ANTI-BW LIES/MYTHS/STEREOTYPES that are presented in the global culture/media.

    BW MUST COMBAT ALL ANTI-BW images at EVERY level in EVERY type of media and REPLACE them with ACCURATE/POSITIVE PRO-BW images that EMPHASIZE the FACT that BW are NORMAL/HUMAN WOMEN who DESERVE to have our HUMANITY/DIGNITY/FEMININITY RESPECTED by EVERYONE.

    BW/PRO-BW ADVOCATES must use BOYCOTTS and other legal tools (in the same way the gay community has) to COMBAT/DESTROY the ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE that underlies the LIES/MYTHS/STEREOTYPES presented in the global culture/media.

    ANTI-BW RACIST/HATERS should have to PAY a PRICE for their RELENTLESS attacks against BW.


  358. Sorry,but as a White Guy growing in country where there are no black-white relations I wouldn’t say I am influenced much by American culture(especially since till 89 it was almost non-existant due to communism).
    Yet even in those days I never felt attracted to black women. Most of them indeed have broad noses, fat lips that make them look more masculine, fat and old(no offense but I am just stating what I feel sexually when looking at them).For some reason the more black the skin colour is the more unnatractive the women feels to me-I guess it could be natural since I am white and I would feel desire to procreate with somebody of similiar genes.
    Yes tanning is sexy-but is sexy not because its black but because it signalises sexual availability, and the most sexy form of tanning is getting a golden tan, the women who overdo tanning and get black usually get laughed at since they look ridiculous.
    I comparision the Asian women usually have that “young look” and feminine aura(small stature, large eyes, delicate noses).
    I noticed the different African sub-genres of women looks, but generaly the only ones with some very few women that are attractive are those with mulatto women, long legs, little fat.

    I wouldn’t say the attractivness of African women is determined by racism. It’s just that their usual body type has more masculine features and those indicating age than those of White and Asian women. In fairness its similiar with Hindu women who generally aren’t good looking as well.

    I went through the http://blackbeautyoftheday.blogspot.com

    Sorry. But only a few women there were attractive, very few.
    And I really apologise-but if you want honesty-some of women listed there I found very ugly, with few even to the point of revulsion.


  359. Kris, whether you think you haven’t been affected by American media or not: you most certainly have.

    And its not because you are not attracted to black women, but because of your portrayal of Asian women.

    Anyone who was born before 1960 (or knows American history) knows that Asian women were often portrayed as ugly, moon-faced, flat-nosed, undesirable and compared to all kinds of animals in the pre-21st century media. You can find literature written about how physically unattractifce they were. Similar to how black women are being portrayed now. They were most certainly not considered the most feminine women, to most Americans or people worldwide.

    It was only after the Vietnam War when American soldiers came home with their Asian wives and the women’s movement was in full-swing that Asian women began to be portrayed as more desirable than other women. All of this is evidenced by the very sharp incline in their marriage rates to white men; the rate of white male-black female marriages were actually higher than white male-Asian females prior to the 1960s:

    http://media.web.britannica.com/ebsco/pdf/25/25264888.pdf

    So tell me: why weren’t people rushing to marry Asian women prior to that period? Because Asian women were so inherently desirable? And why they sharp increase, did men all of a sudden just wake up to their beauty?

    Stereotypes have a profound effect on the way people view others when it comes to attractiveness. Make no mistake about it. Because most people are actually sheeple, and like yourself, believe whatever is the prevailing image at a given time.

    Also, if full lips are so “masculine” as you say –which is in contradication to traditional views of them being feminine– why is lip enhancement the fastest growing form of plastic surgery among women? Mostly among white women, the largest consumers of plastic surgery? [I'm not going to touch on your assertaion that full lips makes a person look old since humans lips get thinner, not fuller, as they age.] And if you haven’t noticed, Asian women also have flat noses (which is in no way a bad thing, unless you are judging prople with a Euro lens, which you are). Thank you for answerting the original question of the post: it is indeed racism and stereotypes.


  360. Excuse my typos: rushed for time.


  361. Sorry, but as a black woman growing up with way too much American Television I am still not attracted to white men, especially foreign ones, unless they are extremely wealthy with a heart condition, otherwise, why waste my time?

    I particularly loathe their hairy, for the most part, flat arses. Most of them have skinny, almost non-existent lips. Don’t go there with the noses! Why, a white man can pump a woman with his nose, which, I suppose, makes up for his small genitals. The whiter the skin, the more pasty and washed out they look, yuck! But that’s natural because I am black I guess. It is only natural that I want to procreate with those gorgeous black men with similar genes! I hope I am not offending anyone as I am only speaking for my self, I am not particularly attracted to them! If tanning indicates sexual availability, then I may give them a go!

    In comparison, Pacific Islander men have the he-man look, their large frame and appendages notwithstanding! Their fierce manly eyes, nice noses etc, etc, etc. Delicate they ain’t , but I detest delicacy in a man!

    I have noticed the different sub-genres of European men, and let me say this; with the exception of the racially mixed Mediterranean, Tartars, some Eastern Europeans, with full, luscious lips, buttocks you can carry trays on, beefy frames, well defined muscles etc etc,. And even amongst those, there are very few I would feel attracted to! Only those ones without hairy, spindly legs and the absence of pot bellies do I find attractive!

    I wouldn’t say the attractiveness of European men is determined by racism though, oh nooo! It’s just that their body types, hairy arses, big noses, pot bellies and spindly legs, strikes me as being extremely feminine to a degree, way more than black and Pacific Islander men. In fairness they’re similar to white American men, sans the swarthy sensuous types like Italians, Jews, some Eastern Europeans, Mediterraneans(racially mixed). Otherwise most of them are hoogly.

    I have gone to many a site with purportedly ‘good-looking’ white men. This is what I saw for the most part!: http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g76/andijayne/Pigtails.jpg
    Sorry, but only a few of these white men were ‘attractive’. The rest were fcking ugly, and how! I really truly and sincerely apologize, but I am being honest! Honesty is the best policy I say! In fact, the white men on these sites were truly vomit inducing in their looks, revulsion is too weak a word for what I felt perusing these sites. I’ve perused millions of these beefcake sites so I know what I am talking about! Again, I apologize!


  362. @Herneith:

    Girl, that was hilarious! Turnaround is fair play. :D


  363. LOL Herneith! Good one.


  364. on Fri 30 Jul 2010 at 00:22:51 Leaveumthinking

    Sorry, but as a black woman growing up with way too much American Television I am still not attracted to white men, especially foreign ones, unless they are extremely wealthy with a heart condition, otherwise, why waste my time?

    I particularly loathe their hairy, for the most part, flat arses. Most of them have skinny, almost non-existent lips. Don’t go there with the noses! Why, a white man can pump a woman with his nose, which, I suppose, makes up for his small genitals. The whiter the skin, the more pasty and washed out they look, yuck! But that’s natural because I am black I guess. It is only natural that I want to procreate with those gorgeous black men with similar genes! I hope I am not offending anyone as I am only speaking for my self, I am not particularly attracted to them! If tanning indicates sexual availability, then I may give them a go!

    Heneith I totally agree with your comment above. Lets not forget their weird colored wolf like eyes, dog like hair, wrinkle prone skin, non existence muscle tone, and receding hair line of these downright unattractive wm.


  365. Don’t go there with the noses! Why, a white man can pump a woman with his nose…

    Nobody’s ever complained yet, Herneith! :P


  366. LOL Herneith you’re hilarious, spot on! hahahahahaahaha


  367. @O’ Dochartaigh (sorry for the lack of fada, i dont know how to put them on a PC) I hear what yer saying, and truth be told, there is more than a little recorded history of african settlement in pre-celtic Ireland, before spain and the vikings… more importantly, long before brit pillage… but Ireland and Wales…. We might have African genetic material… but on a physical level… I think we’re definitely white now. I like to differentiate from anglosaxon on a hereditary and political level for sure, In fact I sometimes correct anglos for thier cheek in assuming i one of them… but on a color level? Black Irish is still white :-)

    @everyone on this thread. wow, I just read this whole thread. I guess being obsessed with female appearance is truly universal… Man, Woman, EVERY racial variant. Everybody is. NOT MALE APPEARANCE… Just women’s. What surprises me (and here are my racial stereotypes, being exposed) Is that my black friends have NEVER even hinted at insecurity at thier ‘blackest’ features in person. I have spent my whole life thinking that black women were not beset with the crazy appearance obsessions that myself and my white, NA and asian friends were…(reading this thread, i wonder if there was/is a dose of bravado) When we were younger, my black friends (whose attitude about beauty , to a person…reminds me of black and German, and Nubian Queen… two of the very healthy self image posters on this thread) seemed to sail through thier teens and young adulthood with a self assurance i admired to the point of emulating. I mean this, not that they were not just as into looking pretty, which they were… but that they seemed like they innately knew they were, Instead of just HOPING they were like teenage girls like I was. It is from black women in my life that I moved on from adolescent obsessions about appearance and learned to love being me. Seeing black women post about not liking thier looks, or preferring ‘whiter’ features or lighter skin is shocking to me. I have held black women up for years as the beauty attitude I aspire too.. and I have apparently absorbed this thoroughly, because I honestly believe it when I say to you ALL…. Dont fall for the hollywood bullshit. Dont get a Jackson Nose onless your real one is painfully deviated, and Leigh.. Dont get fake eyefolds unless your eyeleshes cause you pain. Janet and Latoya (and Halle, I could go on and on, and add 100 white starlets to the list) were prettier with thier own noses and Asian woman are prettier with the eyes they were born with. I will keep my premature wrinkles too. (DAMMIT! that ones a TRUE stereotype! lol, but I will have you all know, I do not lack muscle tone or have a pointy horse face like jennifer aniston, whom I think is ugly too)

    and As for the trolls on this thread.. I think straight shooter, et al… are pretty much a#$holes. REAL MEN are not intimidated by women so much they feel they have to insult you. Or so blind to thier OWN faults that they would ever feel they had a right too. And that is exactly what it is. When we are not scared of something , we rarely feel the need to attack it.

    Society IS f-ed up when it comes to its treatment of black women. And poor women, and women in general too, and the more strikes against you in the world, the more bullshit you have to deal with… But society is wrong. And It takes a very sick kind of person to NOT see it.

    Now I am gonna shut my typing fingers off, cause I am starting to give a mom speech.


  368. As a white European man I have to comment on Herneiths text here. I feel it is my duty as a white european male to react on that kind of writing and say…

    SHES ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! I have hair on my arse! I have hair on my face, armpits, arms, back, chest, and all over! Unfortunately I do not have those spider legs, or chicken legs as they are also called, but that is only because of two dozen years of weight lifting. But I do have a big belly!

    I am as tall as I am wide and I do look like something between an orangutang and Quasimodo, you know, the hunch back of Notre Dam. Even if I have almost black hair, turining grey by now, and brown eyes, I am one good specimen of european white masculinity. Ok, my skin does not have that pinkish hue, it is almost too mediterrenian, but that does not make me pretty either. I am ugly son of bitch, if we compare to the mainstream medias idea of beautiful men.

    I don’t have a big nose, but thats maybe because I have sufficent genitals. Also I do not pump women with my nose, not because I could not do it, but only because some women have told me it does not really feel that good.

    And yes, black women have been attracted to me in Africa only because they thoughed that I was rich and that I had a heart condition! When they found out that I was poor and not dying for a heart failure, they vanished from the sight! Damn, I wondered that for a long time, but now I know.

    Seriously… That was one sharp and good text Herneith! Right on the spot! Almost fell from my chair reading it. Funny, funny as hell, and in it some real hard core commentary about this subject! Way to go, lady! Put out some more!

    I can not understand why anyone could, would or should state that black women are ugly, more masculine or other such nonsense. Black women are women.

    And mr Kings theory of masculinity in black women because they had to be tuff to survive in Africa, then what about inuit women, the eskomos? Or the sámi, the Laplands native people?

    I mean, in Africa you just walk out and start to pick fruits and what ever from the trees, but in the Arctic it is six months of deep freeze and no day light and not much to do except run away from polar bears and wrestle with wolves. Wouldn’t that make these women look like linebackers from NFL, mr King? Right?


  369. Herneith,

    Ah! The wonders they can do with their noses… Especially those with a bump.


  370. First of all i totally forgot about this blog as i posted on it like way up lol and i just read a lot more comments after my last comment and i didnt know it would go on and on lol

    @ Sam

    LMAFO your gave me the biggest laugh ever, but mind you, it is an african thing at least from my country to acquire a rich man for a husband, but the the whole not dieing soon thing is a bit extreme and dont think it true at all, and going for a rich guy is not to say we dont go for guys in terms of love but parents and culture see you have done well for youself if you acquire a smart/well educated or rich or going to be rich, or any of those combinations, basically a quality that is perceived as desirable, being goodlooking to ones eyes doesnt really count for much though so i guess in that sense the shallowness is not on the beauty side.

    Oh and the thing on the eskimos, i watch alot of these nature and cultural programs and actually people in the arctic have to work just as hard as people in hot coutries for instance am afraid like seriously i couldnt survive there the way they do but the men do alot of the hard labour in terms of getting the food, not that the womens labour arent hard but the are less power required but more endurance so just like in a typical African country am afraid but i actually do see logic in the whole black women being more masculine in general compared to other female races which also have masculinity, from past ancestry life and hard times black women tend to be genetically built that way, the science behind it makes sense anyway and i am a science student and have done a lot of reading up on this, Its basically to do with the whole nature and nature thing where both plays a part in a BWs masculine like physique standing out more in some BW. Although it stereotypically makes sense for men to look masculine and women feminine which some people are like that but you cant control genetic makeup and some men do have feminine qualities and females masculine but i find alot of this mixed features are attractive, for example to mention someone who most know of like Ciara, she has the masculine like look/features about but she is sexy as hell and i am proud of having the same masculine like look, though am not as slim (she is practically skinny) or tall and i am lighter, bigger on chest and on bum.

    Myself ad my older sister for example, we are typical black girls with fair skin and light brown eyes, my hair is jet black and course while my sisters is light brown and again course lol and yes i live in the UK, London, but only lived here half of my life, was born and raised for most of my childhood in Africa, i did go through the whole school bully thing here when i first came but it was not to do with my race or anything, simply my dressing, but then again being dressed in boys clothes by your mother would be ridiculed by other teens your age but even then when i was bullied, i had alot of male admirers so i wouldnt say i ever got the whole racism thing from any non black person, my school mixed well, the blacks mixed well with the whites. My best friend at the time did have the typical stereotype a racist white guy would describe a black girl, the really dark skin, flat nose, and big lips and big breasts and bum lol but she was never bullied, i think the only cheeky comments she ever got was to do with her accent and if she did have dry lips they would ask her if she needed some vaseline but i think it was mostly to do with her leaving it to dry out and get chapped rather than the size of it and well the accent thing might be mean but alot of people mimck other accents, i mean i mimick the asain accent all the time, both oriental and non oriental, although i love it but it does make me laugh too.

    But i have to say i have pretty much dated alot of races, black, white, non oriental Asian and the whole thing about Whites having small weiners, lets just say the biggest one i have seen from a White-Portuguese, 14 at the time but the smallest i have seen is from also a white-British lol but a Black male i have seen at 17 was as big as the 14 year old but at 14 you would think he had more growing to do right.

    But in terms of where i lived i do have to say although the blacks mixed with the whites i do find the whites did not date alot of the blacks even though they would admit of wanting to shag a black girl all the time but they did find the white girls more attractive featurewise and the Black girls were just as bad, say ewww wouldnt date a white guy, the skin and the weiner must be small and uncircumsized and soft but the one who slated them the most would try to get me to get them close to some guy or the other and half of them were white, it was too confusin so i just put it all down to teen gibberish and denial lol.

    Now in terms of dating, i did not date alot of guys during my teen years and i was very picky, the guys in my area were just a no no, wouldnt act interested in a crowd but be all over you one on one, the black guys hit on you anytime and the white guys hit on you and open up in private but all confused me as i was new in the country and where i was born i protected from sexual behaviours and stuff so it was too overwhelming in the UK, so i was the quiet girl who observed all and shyed away from most.

    But in my dating experiences when i did date a white guy they never tried to hide me or act embarrassed at all, i guess i have been fortunate to date guys that were proud to have me as a gf no matter race they were but mind you the asian guy was a little different on that category, told everyone we dated but around an Asian girl or his mother he did act like we were just mates but i think it was more to do with his culture expectin a black girl than to do with the fact that i was black.

    I just hate the fact that there is racism and some whites have this mentality to keep away from blacks and some go as far as despising us even though alot of them who shy away actually want to get to know us, but i also hate it when black girls do that too because am afraid some of us do the same too and then comlplain they get that treatment, do unto others what you want done unto you. I was raised to embrace all and i do and i find i get the same treatment back too so i cant complain much.


  371. Oh i just read Herneiths post and she was extremely funny too lool so i guess she takes the number 1 spot from the ones that made me laugh out loud :P


  372. “Kris, whether you think you haven’t been affected by American media or not: you most certainly have.”
    Impossible. American media wasn’t available in my country when I grew up.


  373. “Black women are women.

    And mr Kings theory of masculinity in black women because they had to be tuff to survive in Africa, then what about inuit women, the eskomos? Or the sámi, the Laplands native people?”
    Interestingly enough, Inuit, eskimo women are equally unattractive as black women.


  374. Kris + everybody else

    Why is the masculinity theory being called King’s theory?…I thought it was my theory:(
    I study science and know that disirable mating qualities can change just like that. Sometimes strength is more disirable than weakness, sometimes the other way round. We choose what we want…

    The only worring thing is that BW are becoming as weak as their WW counterparts…tut,tut…and then being called more beautiful.

    Before any comments, think about the vision of beauty in a woman. Physical strength or any kind of strength in general in woman is not considered attractive. why and is this right?

    The discrimination may not be against BW per say but women who exhibit strength and black woman are the picture of strength in woman. and men determine a woman’s attractiveness (even if women don’t think so).


  375. It was your theory! I just commented on it.


  376. Kris, says who? Inuit women are not ugly either, nor are the sami women. And even if they’re small they will kick your ass if you go and tell them that in local bar. I’ve seen it happen and let me tell you, it ain’t pretty.

    Water, I’ll have a strong woman any day rather than a whimpy nancy who can’t take anything else than the next copy of Cosmo or shit like that.

    King, you’re right. It was Waters.

    As what comes to this small, pretty “feminine” looks that some jerks try to claim are the most attractive, I think that any grown up heterosexual male, black or white or any other color, wants a woman. Not a girl. Grown up men want real women. Not children.

    That’s right. Those men who prefer their women as small as possible and as innocent lookin etc. are pedophiles in heart. That is my opinion. Same goes with the shaved down stairs. Grown woman has pubic hair. Children do not. The guys who insist that their women should be clean shaven are also pedophiles in heart. Doesn’t matter if they know it or not.

    Ladies, we heterosexual males love women. We do not want children to our side, into our beds nor into our lives. If you are not a model, dancer, scuba diver or such, you should have some hair down there. Huge bush straight out from the Wild is not required, but some hair is nice. It reminds us that we are dealing with a woman, not a child nor a porn star. Not that I have anything against porn stars or children. I just don’t want them into my bed.

    Sorry if somebody is offended by these comments but that is the way I see this thing. I’m an Old School guy in this regard. I like real women and real women are strong. It does not make them masculine nor terrifying. A Woman can be physically strong too without being ugly or any other negative thing. And most important, a strong woman is sensitive namely because she is strong and is not affraid of her emotions or love.

    I think that some men are affraid of real women and wish that they could find on hapless little girl whom they could dominate. They would like to have a robot like humble little home nymph who would do what told to do and not air any opinions of her own. Me, I don’t. I want a woman with mind of her own, opinions of her own and who can stand on her own two feet. That is a woman I can trust in the times of need. That is a woman I can form a partnership.

    Now if a strong black woman is too much for some guys, don’t say they are ugly. Admit that you are scared of them. Admit your own insecurities and fears, your weak will and self esteem. Say it out: I’m too weak for her. Don’t try to argue that she’s ugly or something like that. It is really pathetic and most of all, it is racism. Just say: I’m too weak for that woman.


  377. Herneith,

    Ah! The wonders they can do with their noses… Especially those with a bump.

    I wouldn’t know, I’m as pure as the driven snow in July! I don’t indulge in such ‘filthy’ practices! Tell me Mira, do the men who indulge in such filthy practices wear condoms on their nose?

    I am as tall as I am wide and I do look like something between an orangutang and Quasimodo, you know, the hunch back of Notre Dam.

    I heard that Quasimodo was quite the Lothario! As for being tall, well that’s something in your favour!

    I can not understand why anyone could, would or should state that black women are ugly, more masculine or other such nonsense. Black women are women.

    Of course these arguments are nonsense! What’s absurd is the insults, generalizations, and the so called ‘honest’ responses contained in some of these posts. When they say ‘masculine’, what they really mean is that they cannot control the said group they claim to find ugly and generally unattractive. Most of these fools, for that is what they are, are at their core, onanist who, in the real world, can’t get a woman of their own group, nevermind the group they purport to find ‘ugly’ and ‘masculine’. They have little or or no self worth. Their best friend is a box of Kleenex and a jar of Vaseline. They come on sites like this to stir sh@t, hence the absurd responses from myself. They argue the unarguable.

    These ‘debates about masculinity in black women are absurd plain and simple! There is no debate! These ‘black women are more masculine debates’ are just an excuse for for the particular commenter’s racism or internalized racism. Not all women from certain groups are the same, they are individuals. Don’t start spouting bullsh$t about black women’s supposed masculinity and being loud and aggressive because it makes you feel diminished as a man. It’s not that group of woman’s fault you have small genitals, get over it! That is what it boils down to eh? Simply put, you are afraid these women will laugh when you take you pants off. All this debate about black women’s looks boil down to the a-hole’s own insecurities. In closing, the palm sisters will be the only successful date you will ever have.


  378. It’s hard to quantify masculinity vrs. femininity into neat and discrete categories. Which is more feminine, a soft, zoftig female or a lean bikini hardbody? Can you really say that one is more feminine than the other?

    So much is open to interpretation.


  379. I wouldn’t know, I’m as pure as the driven snow in July! I don’t indulge in such ‘filthy’ practices! Tell me Mira, do the men who indulge in such filthy practices wear condoms on their nose?

    It depends! Some ARE responsible adults…

    On a more serious note, I can’t believe we’re still taking about the whole “who is feminine/masculine”. Do people really still buy this crap.

    PS-I used to see black women as most feminine and white men as most masculine but now I understand better these were just stereotypes. It’s not a good thing to label people this way.


  380. Herneith says,
    Of course these arguments are nonsense! What’s absurd is the insults, generalizations, and the so called ‘honest’ responses contained in some of these posts. When they say ‘masculine’, what they really mean is that they cannot control the said group they claim to find ugly and generally unattractive. Most of these fools, for that is what they are, are at their core, onanist who, in the real world, can’t get a woman of their own group, nevermind the group they purport to find ‘ugly’ and ‘masculine’. They have little or or no self worth. Their best friend is a box of Kleenex and a jar of Vaseline. They come on sites like this to stir sh@t, hence the absurd responses from myself. They argue the unarguable.

    These ‘debates about masculinity in black women are absurd plain and simple! There is no debate! These ‘black women are more masculine debates’ are just an excuse for for the particular commenter’s racism or internalized racism. Not all women from certain groups are the same, they are individuals. Don’t start spouting bullsh$t about black women’s supposed masculinity and being loud and aggressive because it makes you feel diminished as a man. It’s not that group of woman’s fault you have small genitals, get over it! That is what it boils down to eh? Simply put, you are afraid these women will laugh when you take you pants off. All this debate about black women’s looks boil down to the a-hole’s own insecurities. In closing, the palm sisters will be the only successful

    laromana says,
    EXCELLENT comment, Herneith!

    It’s beyond obvious that ANTI-BW RACIST/HATERS are unwilling to see BW as NORMAL/INDIVIDUAL/HUMAN WOMEN and have to invent IRRATIONAL EXCUSES to justify their ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE.


  381. @Sam
    That’s right. Those men who prefer their women as small as possible and as innocent lookin etc. are pedophiles in heart. That is my opinion. Same goes with the shaved down stairs. Grown woman has pubic hair. Children do not. The guys who insist that their women should be clean shaven are also pedophiles in heart. Doesn’t matter if they know it or not.

    So by extension, this means that women who prefer clean-shaven men over men with facial hair must also be pedophiles, right?

    Just sayin’…


  382. Thad, right.


  383. Although tastes and opinions about pro sports women are rather polarised, watching the current European Athletics championships put things into perspective once again. Let’s just forget about all the ugly stories about drugs etc for a moment.
    Apart from the throw competitions (shot put, discus etc.) most female athletes of all ethnic groups have fairly similar body types. Now the thing is, when looking at the black athletes and then at the white, relatively speaking, the majority of the black girls are sexy whereas the white girls look really homely and bland. I know it’s not only me who notice that every time in athletics competitions.

    And then looking at exceptional athletes like Melene Ottey who, still competing at 50 years old!, still looks like she did in 1990… well anyway… black women are not ugly!! :D


  384. Wha… I prefer clean-shaven men!


  385. You Pedophile!!!


  386. Most guys prefer shaved women, because it looks clean, and eases the oral sex.

    As to the rest-a lot of delusional denial.
    Would I be scared by a fat, manly women hitting on me? Probably, although most likely repulsed more.

    As to athletes-none of them are sexy, most look like thin but muscular men.


  387. Kris, most heterosexual men do not like shaved women. Not among my friends. The whole shaving thing among men came originally from the gay circles in Berlin in 1980′s where it was a vogue. Also the gay community was idolising the old greek and roman statues of hairless men. This was picked up by the fashion industry, where, as it is well known, gay influence was and is very strong.

    I asked from three models could this be the reason behind the hairless, hipless, small buttocks model type so prevelant in the industry. They all said yes. One worked for years in Paris, another in NYC, third in Milan etc. All of them said that if it was not the heterosexual women who buy most of the stuff fashion houses put out, there would be no female models on the cat walks. There would be young lean hairless boys. That is the secret behind that type of a “woman”.

    I’ve had some experiences in the field of oral sex and I have never had any trouble with any pubic hair, so I guess it comes down to ones skills in it. Also, clean shaved downstairs looks clean but in actuality all the bacteria gets much easier in to the organs that way. So the cleaness argument is also based on a wrong knowledge.

    In porn industry is has been a vogue for few years by now, but just because so thet “everything” would be more clear to anyone watching. How ever in recent times the trend has been back to the roots. Friend of mine who works on that field told me some time ago that the hottest thing now are the normal looking models, not those silicone stuffed barbies with fixed downstairs.

    Fat women are not always manly. Some of them are very feminine indeed. I’ve met “fat” women who have been not only very nice but also very good lovers. It comes back again to the skills on how you do it. But I guess you’ll never know if you are “repulsed”.

    As for the athletes, they are sometimes muscular, but not always. Have you ever met a female sprinter face to face? Surprise, they are not that manly at all! I’ve met even some black american sprinters when we had track and field world championships here years ago. They were petite, small and very good looking. You look at them on tv screen and think they are like body builders but that is illusion.

    Generally speaking I think that a man who is not quite sure of himself can think that fit women are too muscular or too manly. If you’re selfesteem is ok, you do not feel that way. Women are women, even if they are fit and have good muscle tone. I don’t compare them to men, but maybe that is because my weightlifting experience. I’ve met some big girls and I do mean big muscular girls. Sprinters look like thin rails aside them.

    Mira, yes. That is a terrible truth. Hairless body is what underaged boys have. Sad, but truth. :-DD

    I admitt I am an old school man. I have old school values in many things. I prefer my women as grown ups, you know. As real women. That is how I see this. And that is why I really do not see black women ugly at all. Most black women I have met, seen, have been real women. Their whole attitude is about being a woman. They are proud of what they are and show it. Now as a heterosexual male, I find that very attracting indeed. So black women and most women are not ugly. Peace!


  388. “Kris, most heterosexual men do not like shaved women. ”
    Really? Then porn I guess should be bankrupt by now, funny that the searchers for hairy women aren’t the prominent ones in porn search engines. Do you have anything to back that up?Polls, science journals, studies? Or was that just your opinion based on nothing?
    .


  389. I have to agree with Kris that most heterosexual men prefer clean shaven women but I don’t think its anything to do with it making it easier to give oral sex.

    Sex is a highly visual act. The brain responds very well to vision to elicit sexual arousal. Other senses are involved but they usually aid in producing a certain imagery. The imagery of clean shaven elicits sexual desire in many heterosexual men. whatever the reason.

    Sam, I think the cleaness argument argues that the GENERAL OUTSIDE REGION is cleaner in shaved rather than unshaved. Hair traps dirt.


  390. haha, I was almost expecting a comment on athletes… :)

    What I was getting at is that beauty – apart from being at least partially subjective – is also a relative thing. Abagond’s initial statement “Are black women ugly or is it racism…”, I would ask back “which black women and ugly compared to whom?” The stereotype is mostly perpetrated by white controlled media and strangely enough, resides in the heads of apparently (too) many people. I assume that those people favour white women as “the ideal”. I just reversed the picture and look at black and non-black women with very similar body types side by side. From a purely male perspective (or is it just me? I know it’s not…) the black women are by several lengths more attractive than the white women. As I said, the majority of white women look bland and boring next to the black women. I also admit that I’m not really into athletes and more into rounder softer women but if there were only female 200m runners in this world I would find at 99% black women or at least non-white non-northern women more attractive hands down.

    It’s also amazing how gracefully many black women age as opposed to white women. That’s another thing. Talking about beauty doesn’t have to be over at 30, you know…

    I’m really baffled sometimes at what certain people see – or rather what they are supposed to see as “dictated” by the majority… Can we say hello to hypocrisy again?


  391. Well, boys, none of my friends prefer clean shaved women. And there is a very good reason behind it. Clean shaved woman reminds normal man from a child. And no normal man wants to have sex with a child. Like I said before, one does not need to have a wild bush down there but some pubic hair is nice. That way she demonstrates also that she is a woman which I happen to like.

    I understand that some young boys shy away from a real women and lust after very very young pre teen girls because of their own insecurities. That’s just the way it is, I guess. But for me, as a grown up heterosexual man, I prefer Women any day and find hairless girl like women unattractive. So does my friends and all the men I have asked about this.

    Granted this could be some generation thing. In these post metrosexual days when younger men are suffering from bulimia and anorexia, are haunted more and more about their looks and appearences, compare themselves to male models and try to look like them, sex with a hairless girl may be just normal. After all, it is normal for younger generation of men to use make up and other womens gear just to look good. You know, night lotions and such nancy stuff.

    I guess men of my age and my backround come from another world. We grew up to be men, not girls. Being a man meant to be real and himself, not to pretend. Being man meant being masculine, not pretty like today. We learned that talk is cheap and deeds show who you are. Anybody can talk the talk, but who will walk the walk?

    We learned to protect the weak, children, old folks, and women, and we learned to respect women and other men, unless otherwise shown. We learned that you are an individual first and foremost and that you have to think for yourself. Do not follow any leader. Follow your own way. That kind of things.

    Ones own sexuality and relationships came from the same tradition. You like women, you have relationships with them. Simple as that. But you do not lust after hairless girls. Because they are children. If you were a gay, it was ok. But not with kids. That was a rule number one. Period. That is the way we grew up.

    Now porn. You do know that porn is fantasy, right? It is not extension of reality, boys. That is the reason why porn actresses and actors are professionals. Porn is fantasy, a grown ups fairy tail. It is not real life. Right? Now, superhero movies are also very popular fantasies, right? Following your logic there should be thousands and thousands of men walking around in tights and jumpsuists, masks and capes because those movies are so popular, and there should be thousands of men saying that this is just normal because of it. Get it?

    I’m not denying anybodys right to be totally hairless nor anything they desire, just telling what I think about this. I just happen to love real, grown up women. That is all.

    And like I said before, any real woman is my kind of woman. And black women are beautiful like all real women. :D


  392. As I said, the majority of white women look bland and boring next to the black women.

    Come chat with me for a minute. The last section should intrigue you the most.


  393. As to the rest-a lot of delusional denial.
    Would I be scared by a fat, manly women hitting on me? Probably, although most likely repulsed more.

    You couldn’t handle a fat woman, a skinny woman, nor an in-between fat and skinny woman! Hence your ignorant statements about black women. It figures you peruse porn sites! That is probably the closest you will get to a woman besides walking down the street and seeing them. This post is about the racist perceptions of black women as being ‘ugly’ and the social ramifications based upon these perceptions. It is not about your ignorant and racist stereotypes as to why black women are ugly. But I must thank you for illustrating, in a blatant way, the racist perspective. If you have a preference for certain types of women fine, otherwise go back to your box of Kleenex and jar of Vaseline!


  394. I have to agree with sam. Personal preferences aside, there’s nothing wrong in having pubic hair (or facial hair… if you’re a guy).

    Contrary to the popular belief, pubic hair is not dirty and unhygienic – quite the contrary. Hair is what stops dirt and bacteria enter inside female’s body. If hairs were dirty, people would not have them in sensitive places such as nose, around the eyes and genitalia.

    Clean shaven female genitalia is a perfect place for infections, especially if a woman chooses to wear synthetic (“sexy”) underwear.

    But hair = dirty is just another myth (similar to uncircumcised = dirty).

    That being said, men in my culture prefer clean shaven. Contrary to the stereotypes of Eastern Europeans, women (even young girls) see regular hair removal as a must (along with tanning). That’s just some thing any girl who wants to look attractive does, no questions asked.


  395. You have to wonder about a guy like Kris. I mean, what would really motivate someone to come over to a Black-owned blog, and state his non-preference for Black women. I mean, we are fine that people have their own preferences, and nobody would begrudge him a preference for women of his own ethnicity.

    But to think of the trouble it takes to write these long posts about why Black women are so undesirable, and then post them on a Black-owned blog site… it just makes you wonder why he goes through all of that trouble, doesn’t it?

    I mean, people who truly feel superior, don’t waste their time visiting and reading Black blog sites, let alone posting lengthy responses, I mean what would be the point? So clearly, Kim doesn’t feel quite as superior as he’s been putting on. He NEEDS to make these arguments and weak observations to convince himself that, despite the fact that he’s a loser in every other level of existence, that he is at least part of some superior race.

    This is common among people who are low achievers, powerless, and generally backward. They have nothing personal to make them feel superior, so their last chance is to latch onto some antiquated notion of group superiority. If it weren’t for their Whiteness, they would have nothing.


  396. There seem to be white people who do believe being white is “enough”, as if it’s some kind of a personal achievement on their part. That’s why you get many whites (who want to date non-whites) thinking a non-white partner has to be super-awesome in all the aspects (looks, intelligence, etc), but they don’t- all they have to do is be white and “accept” to date interracially. So imagine their surprise when a black person rejects them.


  397. @ Mira

    Surprised, indignant, and sometimes quite angry! (especially the guys.) I’ve also seen this attitude with wealthy people , but, superficial as it is, at least they have more to offer than their skin.


  398. King said:

    This is common among people who are low achievers, powerless, and generally backward. They have nothing personal to make them feel superior, so their last chance is to latch onto some antiquated notion of group superiority. If it weren’t for their Whiteness, they would have nothing.

    And this is why its pretty much impossible to talk with said people about racism. Bogus sense of self worth > justice & facts. They’re angry because they’re terrified and the “smug” facade they try to maintain is veil thin to anyone who even bothers to look.


  399. I think the reason why white men find most black women unattractive, is because black facial features do not resemble white peoples (they are not appealing). Some black women look unattracive due to not having “delicate” features, and having darker skin. It doesn’t help, when they are mostly overweight, loud and obnoxious. White men are not interested in women who are not approachable, and don’t care about their health (weight). They have many of their own women to choose from, so why look for that from black women, when most are not attractive in their eyes?


  400. Yeah… and here goes the fallacy once again that most of the Nascar wives, the hockey moms, the pedestrian, blue collar horde, that is the majority of “White People,” are all slim, trim , and attractive. I mean has this guy ever been to a PTA meeting, or visited a Costco, or been to West Virginia, or Pittsburgh, or Wisconsin?

    Wake up!!! White women are FAT, and like mullets, bowling, and cheesy tattoos, if you go my the majority.


  401. Alec says of black women:

    “It doesn’t help, when they are mostly overweight, loud and obnoxious. “

    Black women do have a HIGHER RATE of obesity than white women but that DOES NOT MEAN that MOST are obese. Most are not.

    This is a common fallacy among MANY white people:

    If blacks have a higher rate of x than whites
    Then MOST blacks must be x.

    You see the same thing with rates of welfare, poverty, felony convictions and so on – anything bad. Therefore MOST black men are convicted felons and have been in prison at some point, MOST black people live in poverty or are on welfare. And so on.


  402. Who are these people? I mean, these various commenters have nothing better to do than come here and fling insults regarding the looks of BW. Black women have their countenance in beauty, strength, spirit, and dignity. Those are qualities to be admired. Boooo to you fella!


  403. for whatever reason Abagond attracts more trolls than any other blogger I have read/encountered. I wonder why that is?


  404. @ Leigh204:

    My guess is that is about subconsciously boosting one’s self-esteem by belittling another who is not like you. And of course, these people do it anonymously and would never think of saying it to a black woman’s face.

    @ Y:

    I don’t read all that many black blogs, but I get the sense that there are plenty of white folks who just get a kick out of trolling them. Field Negro gets heaps of racist trolls as well.


  405. Yeah ES, I get the same idea.
    It’s a loosers game.


  406. Personally, I’ve never dated a black woman (not that I haven’t tried, mind you). Partly it’s because there just isn’t a very big pool to select from where I live. But I do find a lot of typically black features attractive. I’d date someone of any race potentially, but I find that most white women don’t quite do it for me to the same degree as others. Partly it’s because one of my most favourite features on a woman is full lips.

    I find it interesting that some white commenters/trolls point out so-called “masculine” features in black women. Because white women tend to have more body hair than others, and you could definitely say that is a masculine feature.

    All races have different features that could be considered “masculine” or “apelike” (the other smear sometimes levelled at black women). It’s just that some of us seem to selectively ignore some of those features and fixate on others.


  407. I think the reason why white men find most black women unattractive, is because black facial features do not resemble white peoples (they are not appealing).

    I think the reason that most black women are not attracted to white men is the fact that their facial features don-not resemble black peoples’. Their non-existent lips, protruding noses, hairy bodies, pot bellies in many cases, pale pasty skin, just doesn’t do it for them! Quite obviously you haven’t read that Americans are suffering from an obesity epidemic regardless of their race. Not all are obese, but enough are for it to be a cause for concern. As for being ‘loud’, ‘obnoxious. and unapproachable, you haven’t been to a Bingo hall. You will see a majority of white women who fit this description! Do you think that they give a hoot about their health when they are chain smoking, and gorging themselves on cholesterol, colon clogging treats? Try to approach one of these woman! I have seen them almost come to blows over their ‘lucky’ table. You see sir, anyone is capable of such behaviour, it isn’t exclusive to certain groups. The white men can have them as I’m sure many of them already do. They are probably a male version of these many women. Remember, the palm sisters are your best friends for you and your racist ilk.


  408. @Alec

    I see overweight white women all the time! Being overweight is not a black thing! People have this strereotypical view that all white women look like young Farrah Fawcetts. But lets be realistic! There are beautiful and average women of every race!


  409. @Harmony

    You said that TRuth B Told is the typical black man! Oh my goodness, please don’t say that! Yeah, some are mean, but there are some who are kind. Don’t let his negative thinking taint your view of all black men! He is someone who should just be ignored. Period. Remember. Misery loves company.


  410. I find it interesting that some white commenters/trolls point out so-called “masculine” features in black women. Because white women tend to have more body hair than others, and you could definitely say that is a masculine feature.

    Yes, that is interesting.

    Like I already said, before trying to unlearn my prejudices, I used to see black women as the most feminine, since they tend to have curvy figures, which is feminine. Also, I used to think of white men as the most masculine because they have the most body hair.

    But like I said, that’s before I started unlearning my prejudices…


  411. I suppose I’m repeating myself but I can only invite those who firmly believe in the “white women are the most beautiful” to take a tour through Britain’s nightlife.

    In the two videos below, it’s quite obvious that many of the women are drunk. However there you have it in the first video, all the “beauty, purity and self-respect” of white Anglo women who perhaps – who knows – also feel superior to the rest of the world. Now some people will say “aah yea, the Brits…” Well, I’ve seen similar scenes also in parts of Germany and Denmark by the way. I’m quite sure the US is not free of this phenomenon either.

    As far as the second video, well… you see for yourself. All I can say is that despite excesses which happen also at predominantly black parties you won’t see things like in the first video.

    I couldn’t find any videos that would comparably represent French or Italian nightlife. However you can believe me that you will not see scenes like in the first video, unless… yes, it’s a bunch of northern folks on holiday.

    I don’t know how much truth is in the old saying that alcohol brings out the real you. If it’s true I wouldn’t be surprised.

    Of course, you will also find non-binge drinking majority white crowds in the UK. I’ve been to several corporate evenings in London but then I have to repeat myself; the majority of white women there tend more towards bland, homely or stuck up compared to the non-white women. I think beauty is much more complex than a staged snapshot. Even superficially speaking, it’s a combination of physical traits but to a large part also body language like facial expressions, gestures, voice, the way one moves, personal style etc.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1m_-fdWp_A


  412. I think the first link was dodgy. Try this one


  413. @ Mira:

    Like I already said, before trying to unlearn my prejudices, I used to see black women as the most feminine, since they tend to have curvy figures, which is feminine. Also, I used to think of white men as the most masculine because they have the most body hair.

    But like I said, that’s before I started unlearning my prejudices…

    You can look at everything in different ways. To take another example, I find Asian women very feminine because they (stereotypically) seem more delicate or something like that. Of course, you could equally say (as I have seen some people do) that they are less feminine because they tend not to be as curvy as, say, black women.


  414. Herneith! “I think the reason that most black women are not attracted to white men is the fact that their facial features don-not resemble black peoples’. Their non-existent lips, protruding noses, hairy bodies, pot bellies in many cases, pale pasty skin, just doesn’t do it for them”

    once again, a hit! :D fantastic! keep it coming! hilarious!


  415. The reason why I found this page was due to my curiosity. I noticed how unattractive African women are in general,so I tried to find any studies or research on that phenomenon.


  416. Yes, but then, how do you account for your own White unattractiveness? It might be interesting to look up how many people in the world are not attracted to White people. That’s a much more original story, don’t you think?


  417. Yes, but then, how do you account for your own White unattractiveness? It might be interesting to look up how many people in the world are not attracted to White people. That’s a much more original story, don’t you think?

    Most likely an eye opener.


  418. Abagond’s blog seems to be like magnet for trolls and their stupidity, I think they find it a challenge.


  419. “Most likely an eye opener.”

    I daresay…

    Blackness, is by and large, the phenotypical opposite of Whiteness. Blacks have darker skin, Whites have lighter skin, Blacks have, broader nose, whites have skinny noses, blacks have fuller lips, Whites have thinner lips, Whites have straighter hair, blacks have kinkier and curlier hair, etc. etc.

    So, on the phenotypical scale, you cannot get any further away from White than Black. Therefore, in order to make Whiteness, and White features a standard of beauty, the opposite features must be deemed to be the opposite of beautiful.

    When a White person is degrading traditional Black features, what they are really trying to do is to assure themselves that their Own Anglo features, (at the opposite end of the spectrum) are upheld as most beautiful. They are threatened by the idea of Black beauty, and attempt to attack it, because, it represents a complete and utter departure from their own subjective standard.

    In all other ethnicities, they can appreciate, the features that are shared in common with White people. But Blacks are so different from Whites, that they must be seen as “ugly” or else, they cannot maintain the claim of corporate Anglo beauty.


  420. The reason why I found this page was due to my curiosity. I noticed how unattractive African women are in general,so I tried to find any studies or research on that phenomenon.

    There probably isn’t any. Crawl back to your cave now.


  421. Is it just me or do many blacks and Asians have pretty much the same features bseides skin color? It never made any sense to me that people see them as appearing very different. Southeast Asians are confused for blacks very often where I’m from.


  422. *besides


  423. ^^^

    Its not just you. High cheekbones and almond shaped eyes come to mind immediately. I have said before that I have seen black women that could pass for Southeast Asian if they had the skin-tone


  424. It’s interesting that people always reference “fat Black women”–didn’t White girls trademark the muffin top?

    I’m not going to lie, I’m pretty sure I hold a stereotype of young Black women generally having better bodies than young White women. I get the most compliments on my body from White women, who say they are trying to achieve my “look”. I think Black women have, by virtue of Black culture, more leeway as to what is attractive–we can be thin, thick, or in between, whereas White girls, by virtue of White American culture, better be skinny because many can’t pull off the thick look. But obviously I don’t know all White girls or all Black girls; I just know what I see at school: most White girls are either chunky or really short (under 5’2”) and moderately thin (those are the girls who people always mistake for high/middle schoolers, unfortunately). Most Black girls are what I’d call “slim”–there are only a few I’d call “skinny” or “thick”.


  425. @Natasha W:

    I can see where you’re coming from. Take Filipina-American actress, Joanna Bacalso, as an example. She appeared in Snow Dogs with Cuba Gooding Jr, and Nichelle Nichols.

    http://image.xyface.com/image/j/artist-joanna-bacalso/joanna-bacalso-193568.jpg

    http://s11.bdbphotos.com/images/orig/c/a/caipy3dlw8hpwlhy.jpg


  426. Y,

    “Its not just you. High cheekbones and almond shaped eyes come to mind immediately. I have said before that I have seen black women that could pass for Southeast Asian if they had the skin-tone”

    And their nose and lips. I think the media plays up the white-looking Asians and Eurasians, but the Asians I see every day don’t look that different from blacks, facially.

    ——–

    Jasmin,

    “It’s interesting that people always reference “fat Black women”–didn’t White girls trademark the muffin top?”

    LOL. My SO said once “Google muffin top.” I was wondering why since I thought it would be about food… He likes to gross me out.

    Anyway, these comments about fat black women go in one ear and out the other. I’m a size 5/6 and I see way and most of the black women commenters here seem to be thin or average size: you, islandgirl, Y, Lynette. So I’m wondering who these fat black women are.

    “I think Black women have, by virtue of Black culture, more leeway as to what is attractive–we can be thin, thick, or in between, whereas White girls, by virtue of White American culture, better be skinny because many can’t pull off the thick look.”

    My SO told me that is why whites put such a premium on women being thin: because white women don’t carry their weight as well, they just look bad if they put on even a bit of weight.


  427. Leigh,

    Lol, the first person I thought of was you! You look so much like a girl I go to school with–she even poses for pictures with the same head tilt and expression you have in your gravatar. :-)


  428. leigh,

    “I can see where you’re coming from. Take Filipina-American actress, Joanna Bacalso, as an example. She appeared in Snow Dogs with Cuba Gooding Jr, and Nichelle Nichols.

    http://image.xyface.com/image/j/artist-joanna-bacalso/joanna-bacalso-193568.jpg

    She looks a bit like Aisha Tyler there.


  429. It’s interesting that people always reference “fat Black women”–didn’t White girls trademark the muffin top?

    What’s a muffin top? (Am I brave enough to google it?)

    ES,

    You can look at everything in different ways.

    Exactly. That’s why this kind of conversations don’t have any scientific basis. They are, on the other hand, a perfect example of trying to make yourself feel better/superior by trashing others.


  430. Mira,

    “What’s a muffin top? (Am I brave enough to google it?)”

    Don’t do it! Lol, see my comment two comments above yours.


  431. Too late! I missed your post and I googled it.

    Another way to disrespect overweight people, isn’t it? :(


  432. @Jasmin:

    Leigh,

    Lol, the first person I thought of was you! You look so much like a girl I go to school with–she even poses for pictures with the same head tilt and expression you have in your gravatar. :-)

    Yes, I do remember you mentioning this a while back. :) Which pic, Jasmin? I posted another pic as my gravatar prior to the current one.


  433. Mira,

    “Another way to disrespect overweight people, isn’t it?”

    It might be. I don’t personally have any issues with overweight people, but I like when people wear clothes that fit their frame.


  434. It might be. I don’t personally have any issues with overweight people, but I like when people wear clothes that fit their frame.

    I get that. Then again, I don’t usually pay attention on what people wear.


  435. Slim people can have muffin tops if they were ill fitting clothes. Its not so much a matter of weight as it is weight distribution and size of clothing


  436. @ Y and Leigh204

    I know what you mean my sister’s friend is a light skinned black african and he looks so much like this Japanese rapper.

    I thought at first he was half east asian but no he is full african. People thought my little brother was mixed becasue of his eye shape but nope runs in the family.


  437. “When a White person is degrading traditional Black features, what they are really trying to do is to assure themselves that their Own Anglo features, (at the opposite end of the spectrum) are upheld as most beautiful. They are threatened by the idea of Black beauty, and attempt to attack it, because, it represents a complete and utter departure from their own subjective standard.

    In all other ethnicities, they can appreciate, the features that are shared in common with White people. But Blacks are so different from Whites, that they must be seen as “ugly” or else, they cannot maintain the claim of corporate Anglo beauty.”- King

    Very well put!

    La Reyna


  438. As sad as it is, I am a young black woman, growing up in a predominantly white town, school, everything. I feel as if it is racism that makes whites and even ourselves think black women are ugly.
    Growing up I didn’t feel pretty because I didn’t look like my friends with their long and flowing hair, their blue and green eyes, and even their freckles.
    But I have just recently come to appreciate my race, my color, and my ridiculously nappy hair (lol). I’ve learned so much thru the Tyra show, online blogs like this, and my freshman year of college. I totally get it now and am trying to teach my 5 yr old biracial niece (who barely looks like she’s 50% white) to appreciate the way she looks and embrace it. One discouraging thing though is my 18 yr old brother talking about Lauren London, saying “Oh, she’s cute…for a black girl.” It’s comments like these that prove the point I am trying to make :/


  439. @ Natasha and Y:

    “Its not just you. High cheekbones and almond shaped eyes come to mind immediately. I have said before that I have seen black women that could pass for Southeast Asian if they had the skin-tone”

    and

    And their nose and lips. I think the media plays up the white-looking Asians and Eurasians, but the Asians I see every day don’t look that different from blacks, facially.

    I’m glad to hear you say this.

    On the “Would you date this woman?” post a few months back I was saying that the woman in question could possibly have passed for SE Asian. Everyone else reacted as if I was on crack for saying that!

    A number of people have commented that I look like I have some black ancestry; indeed, few guess first time round that my non-white heritage is actually Asian. So I guess that backs up the whole “blacks and Asians are quite similar” idea.


  440. Black women do not have a monopoly on ugliness; white women do not have one on beauty either. It is true that not every single Black woman is attractive, but we are certainly not all dogs. I think the reason why we are viewed as unattractive is because we are so far from the Eurocentric standard of beauty. What we as Black people should do is celebrate our own beauty and quit looking to whites or anybody else to validate our beauty. I don’t think most whites can see beyond themselves to celebrate our beauty. Growing older has helped me to appreciate my natural God given looks more. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having skin kissed by the sun, a broader nose or full, sensous lips made for kissing. When I hear whites (or others for that matter) disparaging all Black women, I feel sorry for them. I think you make yourself a little less human when you tear others down like that. It makes one seem insecure. I happen to think Black men are some of the finest men that God put on this earth. However, that doesn’t mean that I cannot see or appreciate the beauty of men from other ethnicities. (I know we’re talking about women, but I had to throw that in about men! ;^) )


  441. on Tue 3 Aug 2010 at 05:40:24 Menelik Charles

    @ mochasister,

    The problem is that white men DO see the beauty in many dark-brown Black women, and therein lies the problem. To deny the beauty of such women, or to conceal it behind the pale veneer of a Halle or a Beyonce – as white men typically do, is to virtually deny their heterosexuality…along with the psychological baggage of those centuries-long sexual crimes against women of this description.

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  442. Jam says,
    Growing up I didn’t feel pretty because I didn’t look like my friends with their long and flowing hair, their blue and green eyes, and even their freckles.
    But I have just recently come to appreciate my race, my color, and my ridiculously nappy hair (lol). I’ve learned so much thru the Tyra show, online blogs like this, and my freshman year of college. I totally get it now and am trying to teach my 5 yr old biracial niece (who barely looks like she’s 50% white) to appreciate the way she looks and embrace it. One discouraging thing though is my 18 yr old brother talking about Lauren London, saying “Oh, she’s cute…for a black girl.” It’s comments like these that prove the point I am trying to make :/

    laromana says,
    I admire the positive attitude you have regardless of the ANTI-BW message that American culture/media tend to promote. Don’t ever change that!
    Please hold your brother accountable for his disrespectful comments about BW (maybe let your parents know the wrong things he’s saying).

    Unfortunately, MANY BM today are BW’s WORST ENEMY because they promote ANTI-BW attitudes and REFUSE to defend the humanity, dignity, and femininity of BW against our many attackers.


  443. Aiyo,

    “I know what you mean my sister’s friend is a light skinned black african and he looks so much like this Japanese rapper.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xioxeLo99Zk

    The rapper does look black. He looks like a black guy I know, actually.

    Eurasian Sensation,

    “On the “Would you date this woman?” post a few months back I was saying that the woman in question could possibly have passed for SE Asian. Everyone else reacted as if I was on crack for saying that!”

    Lol. I think it was the ABB (Anything But Black) sentiment that is pervasive throughout North America that caused people to respond that way. Most people here are from the U.S. (or UK), so usually when a person they know says something like that, it’s the ABB principle at work. But since you’re from Australia, you’re probably more familiar with the looks of other ethnicities and less familiar with that of black Americans.

    “A number of people have commented that I look like I have some black ancestry; indeed, few guess first time round that my non-white heritage is actually Asian. So I guess that backs up the whole “blacks and Asians are quite similar” idea.”

    For some reason I can tell you’re part Southeast Asian. Something doesn’t click as “black” with you. I knew a lot of Southeast Asians growing up, and you look more like them.


  444. Menelik Charles,

    “The problem is that white men DO see the beauty in many dark-brown Black women, and therein lies the problem. To deny the beauty of such women, or to conceal it behind the pale veneer of a Halle or a Beyonce – as white men typically do, is to virtually deny their heterosexuality”

    I don’t know why those types are promoted in the media (Well, I do have a hankering why, but I’ll not say anything…) because those aren’t the types of black women I see white men go for. I’ve heard white men praise Michelle Obama, Gabrielle Union, Garcelle Beauvais, Oluchi Onweagba; everyday black women. One of my SO’s friends told him I wasn’t dark enough for his liking!


  445. Laroma and Natasha might be onto something here: it seems that this race crap is mostly in US media. In France there has been a lot of more or less black actresses, athletes, singers, rappers, newscasters etc. and nobody makes any fuss of them being black.

    Same goes for Germany. In their soap operas they have had black actresses and actors but nowhere in the series their color is any point nor in anyway in the plot. They have had black police officers in german series at least from the 80′s and in those there is no mention about the fact that Wolfgang here is black cop or anything like it.

    This is also the situation in Finland. We have a black newscaster but nobody has pointed this out. It’s no big deal at all. We’ve had black actors in tv, movies and series and it is no big deal. One black actor even played one finnish war hero in a play. No objections.


  446. I can confirm what sam said. This is not to say that people in Europe don’t notice POC appearing for the first time in the media. In fact they do and talk about it the next day but after that it’s “topic closed”. Whereas in France and the UK it’s not unusual to see minorities in the media, I suppose for Northern countries and fairly monolithic Germany (apart from the Turkish community) it’s rather uncommon. I suppose it’s mainly because people of African descent make up a tiny percentage of the population. One of my cousins is a journalist and often travels through Germany and Scandinavia. She heard first hand that their media are actually very interested in getting more POC to the forefront, although she was also told that it might partly be because they don’t want to appear backwards and monolithic compared to other European countries. Then again the POC who make it there are in fact talented and competent, which is what counts.

    After all, Rama Yade is still the most popular political figure in France at more than 80% at some point. The most beautiful state minister ever anyway ;)


  447. I don’t know. I did feel like I was ugly because of the way I look, but for a different reason. The problem comes in when they is only one type of beauty accepted. Not alot of white women fit Hollywood’s standard on beauty and are destorying themselves to be that way. (cough,Heidi Scencer) You still have the same problem in a different form. I’m an artist that very picky about beauty. Most Hollywood actors aren’t attractive to me, regardless of color. Each of them seem to have a mold that all way into. Like they were made in a factory. I personally don’t really believe in black or white features. it’s just a half-ass reason to put blacks down. i don’t find big noses or when a person’s lips are too thin or so huge it that it’s takes about their whole face attractive.


  448. I agree with Angie, and I think that beauty is all what your society makes of it. Racism has nothing to do with beauty if you ask me, racism is fear, and if anything I’ve found racists to be more attracted to the people they so hate.


  449. “I’m an artist that very picky about beauty. Most Hollywood actors aren’t attractive to me, regardless of color. Each of them seem to have a mold that all way into. Like they were made in a factory.”

    Or maybe their just “made up.”

    http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/slideshow/photos-celebrities-sans-make-4577149


  450. oops! “they’re”


  451. “When a White person is degrading traditional Black features, what they are really trying to do is to assure themselves that their Own Anglo features”
    Wow, I never knew I had English features. I guess all Whites are Anglo-Saxons including Ukrainians, Latvians, Serbs.


  452. “Blackness, is by and large, the phenotypical opposite of Whiteness. Blacks have darker skin, Whites have lighter skin, Blacks have, broader nose, whites have skinny noses, blacks have fuller lips, Whites have thinner lips, Whites have straighter hair, blacks have kinkier and curlier hair, etc. etc.”

    That’s a very blanket statement. Not all blacks have a broad noses, dark brown skin or full lips. Not all whites have light straight hair, small noses and thin lips. Like I said, there’s really no such as black and white features. Just an excuse to feel better about themselves. Example: Most white people I’ve come across have big noses. Some would tell me that they wanted my nose.


  453. I think you should to revisit the qualifier at the beginning of the statement. The phrase, “By and large” means that the following statement is a generalization. Notice also that the the descriptors talk about “fuller lips” and “thinner lips” (as an example) not “full lips and thin lips.” That is to say, that blacks tend to have comparatively, an on average, fuller lips than do Whites.

    That doesn’t mean that full lips are a “Black feature.” It also doesn’t mean that there are no White people with full lips.


  454. “Wow, I never knew I had English features. I guess all Whites are Anglo-Saxons including Ukrainians, Latvians, Serbs.”

    Anglo Saxon heritage was simply an example of the potential background a White individual who might downgrade Black ethnic features. It was not meant to assume that every White person who read this post would come from as Anglo background.


  455. As make-up was mentioned, most women of colour I know look at least as good without make-up as with, some look even better without (believe me, they do exist). I can’t say the same about most women of the so-called Northern “beauty standard”, blonde, pale, blue eyes. A lot of them tend to look tired, older or even ill without any make-up – and they know it. Quite a few of those women make it almost a taboo zone to be seen without make-up. It’s beyond me how the tired old beauty standard can still be maintained even though those women themselves admit that they’re actually not that pretty.

    It sometimes makes me wonder, what if make-up had never been invented…


  456. How can black women be ugly if they usually give birth to very adorable babies. I know black women are as beautiful as any other women because most women have curves and have softer features than men.


  457. Femi, think you’re righ there.

    Check out Lola Odusoga. Miss Finland way back. Miss Scandinavia way back. Second runner up in Miss Universe competition. Her father is nigerian. Still one of the most beautiful women in Finland. And she is black, has always been, and a Finn. Also swears nicely sometimes.


  458. @ sam
    She’s very pretty indeed. Not quite “typical scandinavian” looking though, is she? ;)

    Other Miss beauties I can think of are Chloé Mortaud, Liliane Murenzi, Whitney Toyloy.


  459. I think its time for people to wake up to what is really going on in discussions like this.

    I don’t think the title of this post actually helped:

    Are black women ugly or is it racism that makes them seem so?

    Its the unchallenged premise – “Are black women ugly…?” – that has set up an avalanche of unexpressed pent-up feelings of supposedly non-racial bias festering away in many of the posts here.

    To many people posting here that premise probably just naturally “FEELS” right although many have tried questioning it. Trying to OBJECTIVELY quantify BEAUTY.

    For me its amazing to see how so many people are so caught up in this maze. And I have to say particularly women commenting on other women. (Thank God as a male I’ve not really had to experience this!!!)

    To say all this discussion about racial physical appearance doesn’t matter as its so superficially…

    - The true measure of any persons physical beauty will always be determined by their “inner qualities” or how “positively” they view – themselves

    would be stating what is obviously NOTtrue here. IT DOES MATTER TO SOME PEOPLE!!!

    So the obvious question is why? And to who does it matter most?

    Of course it matters in some way to all of us. Everyone likes to perceive of themselves as attractive and beautiful (obviously women do). And we like to see and appreciate this in the reflections of other people around us. However, if we become preoccupied with this to the point we being to insist that “others” should reflect more accurately what we perceive to be our own standards of physical beauty or appearance then we set ourselves up for conflict. Because naturally we can all have our say about this.

    So now if I pose the two questions above to myself I can respond:

    Why? It matters to me because I have my own biases on certain physically attractive features in both women and men. BUT for me they are just that BIASES. I don’t insist on other people sharing them (its nice when they do!!!) as I am comfortable with how I FEEL about them.

    To who does it matter most to? To me this answer is obvious as I have already stated my opinion on how superficially I believe such analysis to be. Another way to answer this question would be to ask:

    Who or which group of peoples gains the most from this answer? By gain I mean economically, politically, socially, culturally etc..

    One final thought. If the originally post had been entitled:

    Are white women beautiful? or is it society that makes them seem so?

    I wonder how different the comments might have been?


  460. You are so desperate to delude yourself that ethnic group has nothing to do with attractivness and that is purely social construct.

    Ok-please show me the supermodels from Australian Aboriginal women.


  461. Are white women beautiful? or is it society that makes them seem so?

    Well, that’s an excellent idea for a post!


  462. I see so Kris are you saying that Australian Aboriginal women should conform to the standard of the “supermodel” which you obviously endorse?


  463. Mira Lets hope Abagond shares our view!!


  464. You are so desperate to delude yourself that ethnic group has nothing to do with attractivness and that is purely social construct.

    So, are you saying that “ethnic group” has a lot to do with attractiveness?

    And what do you mean by “ethnic group”?


  465. on Fri 6 Aug 2010 at 12:30:14 Menelik Charles

    @ Kris,

    but ‘super model’ is a social construct designed to exclude certain types of real (i.e. sexually attractive) women. Most heterosexual men don’t find such women sexually attractive since many such women are ‘boyish’ and skinny. Moreover, the ‘beauty’ of your standard ‘super model’ is determined by white homosexual men.

    Thus, the notion of female ‘super model’ IS a white homosexual social construct. So if one is to see an Aboriginal ‘super model’ in our lifetime she is likely to be essentially white in appearance, and minus all the physical characteristics denoting female sexuality and sensuality. That is, she’ll be akin to an anorexic white boy in some garish attire!

    Dig?

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  466. Menelik Charles,

    I mostly agree with you…. but I must say it’s not ok to call thin/skinny women anorexic and boyish. There’s nothing wrong in being skinny and contrary to the popular belief, these women are not necessarily less feminine.

    But I do agree about the construct: we are not born with this kind of ideas about beauty. They are constructed and people buy into what media tell them they should like.


  467. on Fri 6 Aug 2010 at 13:24:58 Menelik Charles

    @ Mira,

    if they were anything other than anorexic-looking, and boyish, they wouldn’t be chosen as ‘super models’ by the so-called ‘Gay Mafia’ which runs the fashion industry! It’s there social construct, and their choice of females. The women are NOT chosen for their femininity.

    You know this, right?

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  468. Kwamla,

    “I don’t think the title of this post actually helped:

    Are black women ugly or is it racism that makes them seem so?

    Its the unchallenged premise – “Are black women ugly…?” – that has set up an avalanche of unexpressed pent-up feelings of supposedly non-racial bias festering away in many of the posts here.

    To many people posting here that premise probably just naturally “FEELS” right although many have tried questioning it. Trying to OBJECTIVELY quantify BEAUTY.”

    Have to agree with you here.

    ——-

    Mira,

    Thinner women are no less feminine, but a lot of models are unnaturally thin. A baturally thin woman can and does look stunning, but a person always looks better with their given body shape, in my opinion. My brother used to date a model and she looked like a bobblehead doll because her body was so small in portion to her head.


  469. I dont think thin/slim women are less feminine but lets be real the MAJORITY of “supermodels” (less the Victoria’s Secret and SI models) are unnaturally thin, and THAT is unfeminine to me. Its not a crime to be thin but if you look like a bobble head there is something wrong.


  470. That should be “naturally” in my post above.

    I agree with Y, except some VS models are also unnaturally thin.


  471. Beauty standards change based on who is perpetuating them. With global media, something that’s so recent, we have international superstars and supermodels and they tend to look a certain way. BUT, part of that is based on selling us things and making us spend money to look a certain way.

    Some things transcend color/race and “beauty” tends to be indicated by looking healthy, proportionate and reproductively youthful. Things like even skin tone – it doesn’t matter what color your skin is – I look better when my (white) skin isn’t discolored or patchy from dryness and my complexion is clear, and I’d guess women of color feel the same way about that.

    I think women of all racial backgrounds are equally attractive based on not Eurocentric standards but on biological standards, just like all babies are cute and make you smile when they smile at you. We’re hardwired to see some things as attractive, whether models are super slender one decade or chubby as in the turn of the century.


  472. The mask draws some interesting conclusions about what human beauty is.

    http://goldennumber.net/beauty.htm


  473. on Fri 6 Aug 2010 at 18:01:27 Menelik Charles

    greyships said:

    We’re hardwired to see some things as attractive, whether models are super slender one decade or chubby as in the turn of the century.

    Menelik replies:

    any man “hard-wired” to perceive “super slender” women as “attractive” is probably gay or bi-sexual. Like they tend to be in the fashion industry, right?

    Just saying!

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  474. Well, there are cultural things, too. One culture might find facial tribal tattoos sexy. Another might find petite women sexy. It’s acculturation.

    If you voted on the most unadorned beautiful women (and men) in any given culture as of 500 years ago, I’d guess that other cultures would find them appealing too.

    I don’t want to speculate on anyone’s orientation, Menelik, but the Golden Mean photos? All of those people and statues are beautiful. People are people.

    Interesting:

    http://www.beautyanalysis.com/mba_introduction_page.htm


  475. I think men in general are hardwired to go for a beauty that makes reproductive sense, like wide hips or clear skin. Each man is different, of course, but if you take men as a whole I suspect it averages out to something that makes reproductive sense.

    Yet nature’s hardwiring is affected by society’s softwiring. Thus the fashion industry’s need for walking clothes hangers affects society’s idea of what is beautiful, pushing it into a direction that makes little sense from a reproductive point of view.

    In terms of race that means black men prefer whiter looking women than they would have otherwise and Mediterranean men a more Nordic look than they would have.

    But when it comes to black female beauty there is an underlying hatred and contempt that goes beyond all this, something that you do not see applied to the natural beauty of Asian, Latino or Mediterranean women.


  476. I take the title of this post for face value, literally. I assume that the issue is not to declare a “new standard” for beauty. The sense for aesthetics in superficial traits is apparently too subjective. I think this is about artificial bias. It’s about criteria that go beyond the natural human sense for aesthetics. Abagond asks the question “… or is it racism?”. I would ask “… or is it brainwashing?”

    I think this is about the question why comparatively so few black women become a “sex symbol” for whole populations, irrespective of the ethnic composition of those populations.

    If we were to fall back into comparisons, we’d have to compare apples to apples. By “apples” I mean all parametres equal EXCEPT for ethnicity. Same body type, same BMI, same age, same amount of make-up, same flawlessness, same outfit etc. It’s quite obvious that it wouldn’t make sense to compare, let’s say, Oprah to Paris Hilton or Roseanne to Naomi Campbell.

    You will find that all parametres equal but ethnicity, a lot of Northern white women are considered beautiful by default but black women with very similar features are seen first of all as black. Perhaps some will admit, yeah, they look good but well… they’re still black. That’s the real issue.


  477. abagond says,
    But when it comes to black female beauty there is an underlying hatred and contempt that goes beyond all this, something that you do not see applied to the natural beauty of Asian, Latino or Mediterranean women.

    Femi says,
    You will find that all parametres equal but ethnicity, a lot of Northern white women are considered beautiful by default but black women with very similar features are seen first of all as black. Perhaps some will admit, yeah, they look good but well… they’re still black. That’s the real issue.

    laromana says,
    Thanks abagond and Femi for stating the FACT that it’s largely ANTI-BW RACISM that leads people to degrade, demean, and disrespect Black female beauty.


  478. Abagond said:

    When it comes to black female beauty there is an underlying hatred and contempt that goes beyond all this, something that you do not see applied to the natural beauty of Asian, Latino or Mediterranean women.

    See, that’s bigotry or socialization, though. If you took 100 white women and 100 black women and all things being equal – say they’re all the same age and all average weight and have access to resources like say, makeup, and theyr’e all wearing the same thing, about the same percentage of them in each group will be beautiful, pretty, average/plain or unattractive.

    Anything else we’re putting on them – relative “value” as partners or marriageability or something, that’s society putting it on them, yeah. I’m just talking objectively.


  479. Black women are beautiful, just in their own way. I’m a black women and to be honest, most of the pressure I’ve heard about black beauty, came from black men. I had a friend who was hispanic and all he loved was black women, but his black friends all told him to go with girls of other races. They told him that because they said they were prettier, had nicer hair, faces, and stupid superficial reasons like that. I even saw on another blog, where a white woman said her black husband told her white women were better, because they didn’t need to wear fake hair and nails. So it’s not just media, not all, but some of our own men are making it seem that way too. Hollywood doesn’t help either, because black women are rarely cast as the female leads. People always praise halle berry, alicia keys, and beyonce, who are all light-skinned. But there are pretty dark-skinned women in hollywood like Kerry Washington, Aisha Tyler, and Naomi Campbell. I also went to a high school that was known for having really pretty girls, girls, who were black and majority dark-skinned. It’s just absolutely stupid.


  480. Yet 8.4% of married Black American men had a non-Black spouse while 92.6% where married to Black women, according to United States Census Bureau 2006.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage_in_the_United_States#Census_Bureau_statistics

    Black men don’t seem to be taking their own advice at least when it comes to marriage, for the most part. Or maybe there are a few fools out there who get used to represent “most Black men” when the figures seem to lean in entirely the opposite direction.


  481. The percentages you put are probably true. But that’s not the point I was trying to make. Wasn’t saying that every black man is with a white woman. All I was saying, is that blacks are in denial. There is a lot of self hate in our own race. I’m not saying that this happens all the time, because it doesn’t. I’ve usually noticed it to happen among the younger generations, not the older generations. But to try and act like it’s not, is a lie. So for you to say, “Or maybe there are a few fools out there who get used to represent most black men,” was unneccesary.


  482. bored says,
    Black women are beautiful, just in their own way. I’m a black women and to be honest, most of the pressure I’ve heard about black beauty, came from black men. I had a friend who was hispanic and all he loved was black women, but his black friends all told him to go with girls of other races. They told him that because they said they were prettier, had nicer hair, faces, and stupid superficial reasons like that. I even saw on another blog, where a white woman said her black husband told her white women were better, because they didn’t need to wear fake hair and nails. So it’s not just media, not all, but some of our own men are making it seem that way too.

    laromana says,
    bored, this is why I feel BW don’t need KKK/Nazi skinheads to attack them because MOST BM are such ANTI-BW RACIST/HATERS.

    How WARPED/STUPID/TWISTED is it that MOST BM PROMOTE/CONDONE ANTI-BW RACISM/HATRED when they were birthed by BW. No NON-BM do this because they understand that when you TRASH the women of your own race, you’re TRASHING yourself.


  483. I completely agree with you laromana. My mom and I talk about this all the time. It really hurts my heart when I do see our men say negative things like that about us. Once again, not saying all do this, or even most, just some. And you’re right, men of other races don’t do it publicly like our men have.


  484. on Tue 10 Aug 2010 at 00:02:36 Menelik Charles

    @ bored,

    are you suggesting that Black women don’t criticise Black men in the mass media?

    Think now.


  485. @ bored.

    “So for you to say, “Or maybe there are a few fools out there who get used to represent most black men,” was unnecessary.”

    I’m sorry, but I do feel that Back men who denigrate Black women, as a group, are fools.


  486. Oh ok I’m sorry king. I miss interpreted what you said. I’m not saying black women don’t dog black men in the media. But I haven’t seen it as often as the men do. Actually I haven’t seen it at all. Either way, it’s not ok, but give me an example


  487. on Tue 10 Aug 2010 at 02:15:16 Menelik Charles

    @ bored,

    I asked a question while you made a statement that Black men are given a public forum to bash Black women. The onus is on YOU to provide me with enough examples to support your claim.

    I’ll wait.

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  488. You want evidence to support the claim that Black men have publicly bashed black women? Well there’s snoop dogg who said all black women were gold diggers, Kobe Bryant, Charles Barkley who said a black woman could never do anything for him, T.O said a few offensive things in his reality show. You hear it every now and then from a few others, but they’re not as famous as the ones I just named. Now please support your claim. You seem to be suggesting that black women do the same thing. Like I said neither way is cool, but give some examples.


  489. bored says,
    bored
    Oh ok I’m sorry king. I miss interpreted what you said. I’m not saying black women don’t dog black men in the media. But I haven’t seen it as often as the men do. Actually I haven’t seen it at all. Either way, it’s not ok, but give me an example

    laromana says,
    bored, you’re correct when you haven’t seen BM AS A GROUP PUBLICLY TRASH BM AS A GROUP because it NEVER happens.

    It’s clear that the practice of PROMOTING/CONDONING ANTI-BW RACISM is something MANY high profile/no profile BM are engaged in. A few years ago an online ANTI-BW RACIST/HATER BM murderer a young BW/college student (Asia McGowan) and then commited suicide. The online ANTI-BW RACIST/HATER actively promoted violence against BW on YouTube and attacked/sought to ban PRO-BW YT videos.


  490. laromana Correction:

    bored, you’re correct when you say you haven’t seen BW AS A GROUP PUBLICLY TRASH BM AS A GROUP because it NEVER happens.


  491. That’s terrible about the murder story laromana


  492. All we are talking about here are individuals. /It doesn’t matter if they’re famous or no-names. They don’t speak for the “Black Man Club.” These fools are speaking and acting only for themselves.


  493. on Tue 10 Aug 2010 at 07:14:09 Menelik Charles

    @ bored & Laromana,

    to begin with, what does the phrase ‘Niggers aint shit!” mean? Is the phrase self-explanatory? Out of whose mouth is the phrase most likely to come out of? Of which sex does it refer to?

    Just asking.

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  494. on Tue 10 Aug 2010 at 07:15:28 Menelik Charles

    @Abagond,

    the offensive phrase is in context of the question put to me by bored.


  495. on Tue 10 Aug 2010 at 07:28:33 Menelik Charles

    bored said:

    snoop dogg who said all black women were gold diggers, Kobe Bryant, Charles Barkley who said a black woman could never do anything for him, T.O said a few offensive things in his reality show.

    Menelik asks:

    really? could you provide quotes or links regarding the above? Better still, provide me with a couple of quotes from Snoop, Kobe and TO. I’d appreciate it.

    Thanks

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  496. @ King. I know we’re all individuals and that they don’t speak for every black man. You’re right they’re just fools and any black women that is doing this is a fool too.


  497. http://hellobeautiful.com/gossip-news/hello-beautiful-staff/taye-diggs-defends-slim-thugs-racist-comments/

    This is a link about tay diggs.

    http://www.thisisthedream.com/2009/03/12/black-mans-rant-why-i-dont-date-black-women/

    This is a link about some random black guy who made a blog about not liking black women. Plus he listed black celebrities that only date white women


  498. Now Menelik Charles, I’d appreciate it if you gave me some proof to back up your claim.


  499. on Tue 10 Aug 2010 at 17:21:14 Menelik Charles

    bored said:

    Snoop Dogg who said all black women were gold diggers, Kobe Bryant, Charles Barkley who said a black woman could never do anything for him, T.O said a few offensive things in his reality show.

    Menelik asks:

    right, I’ll try again: can you provide a quote for any of the three Black men you mentioned above of saying what you claimed they said?

    The links you provide hardly support what you’ve said. To begin, Taye Diggs in no way, shape, or form, defended Slim Thug (he just didn’t attack him), and the “random Black guy” who loathes Black women, and provides a list of Black men dating or married to them, hardly translates into an anti-Black female narrative!

    I can provide you with links to similar blogs by Black women who bash Black men, and advocate Black women leave Black men for white men, and the white community.

    Please, if you can, just provide quotes, or links, showing how the three brothers you mentioned by name disrespected the masses of Black women.

    Thanks you.

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  500. Menelik Charles says,
    bored said:
    Snoop Dogg who said all black women were gold diggers, Kobe Bryant, Charles Barkley who said a black woman could never do anything for him, T.O said a few offensive things in his reality show.

    Menelik said:
    right, I’ll try again: can you provide a quote for any of the three Black men you mentioned above of saying what you claimed they said?

    The links you provide hardly support what you’ve said. To begin, Taye Diggs in no way, shape, or form, defended Slim Thug (he just didn’t attack him), and the “random Black guy” who loathes Black women, and provides a list of Black men dating or married to them, hardly translates into an anti-Black female narrative!

    I can provide you with links to similar blogs by Black women who bash Black men, and advocate Black women leave Black men for white men, and the white community.

    laromana says,
    Menelik, when ANY BM PUBLICLY PROMOTES ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE (ie. making PUBLIC comments that DISRESPECT, DEMEAN, DEGRADE BW or REINFORCING ANTI-BW LIES, MYTHS, STEREOTYPES) and NO BM CONFRONT/CHALLENGE him, they are GUILTY of CONDONING ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE.
    This has become a COMMON PRACTICE among MANY high profile BM and it should NOT be DIFFICULT for ANYONE to understand WHY this is WRONG.

    BW are UNIVERSALLY DEGRADED/DISRESPECTED because MOST BM don’t DEFEND their HONOR/DIGNITY (like NON-BM do with the women of their race).

    Also, MOST BWE blogs encourage BW to ONLY pursue QUALITY men of ANY RACE (for serious dating and/or marriage relationships) and to REJECT/CONDEMN men of ANY RACE who engage in ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE.

    The FACT that MANY BM TODAY PROMOTE/CONDONE ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE is the REAL problem that BM need to deal with, instead of ATTACKING/MISREPRESENTING/JUDGING BW for not “keeping quiet” about this DISGUSTING behavior.


  501. @ Menelik Charles, I can provide you with links to similar blogs by Black women who bash Black men, and advocate Black women leave Black men for white men, and the white community.

    You keep saying this, but you haven’t done it. I’m not showing you nothing else until you come with something. Actually it doesn’t matter if you do. I don’t care enough about this issue to go back and forth with someone I don’t know.


  502. Couldn’t find any links for charles barkley, kobe, and snoop. They’re statements were made a long time ago, they’re too old for me to find a link. Just showed you what I could find


  503. @ laromana, when ANY BM PUBLICLY PROMOTES ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE (ie. making PUBLIC comments that DISRESPECT, DEMEAN, DEGRADE BW or REINFORCING ANTI-BW LIES, MYTHS, STEREOTYPES) and NO BM CONFRONT/CHALLENGE him, they are GUILTY of CONDONING ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE

    She’s right. The fact that taye diggs didn’t attack slim thug, but backed him up makes him just as guilty


  504. on Tue 10 Aug 2010 at 20:23:00 Menelik Charles

    bored said:

    Snoop Dogg said all black women were gold diggers, Kobe Bryant, Charles Barkley who said a black woman could never do anything for him, T.O said a few offensive things in his reality show.

    Menelik asks:

    right, I’ll try again: can you provide a quote for any of the three Black men you mentioned above of saying what you claimed they said?

    The links you provide hardly support what you’ve said. To begin, Taye Diggs in no way, shape, or form, defended Slim Thug (he just didn’t attack him), and the “random Black guy” who loathes Black women, and provides a list of Black men dating or married to them, hardly translates into an anti-Black female narrative!

    I can provide you with links to similar blogs by Black women who bash Black men, and advocate Black women leave Black men for white men, and the white community.

    Please, if you can, just provide quotes, or links, showing how the three brothers you mentioned by name disrespected the masses of Black women.

    bored replied:

    couldn’t find any links for charles barkley, kobe, and snoop. They’re statements made a long time ago, they’re too old for me to find a link.

    Menelik replied:

    really? I think you were simply making stuff…and that’s putting it very kindly, indeed!

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  505. I don’t care how kindly you put it. I don’t know you, so I dont care. Nothing that I said was made up. But I see you still haven’t provided any so-called proof you had to back up your claims. Tsk Tsk. At least I had something. Have a nice day.


  506. Something I came across today which in light of this discussion might offer a different perspective:

    ten things I want to say to a Black woman

    http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=657382551


  507. Opps….should be:


  508. on Wed 11 Aug 2010 at 23:02:20 Menelik Charles

    Are black women ugly or is it racism that makes them seem so?
    Tue 10 Aug 2010 at 22:41:29


  509. on Wed 11 Aug 2010 at 23:05:14 Menelik Charles

    Abagond,

    sorry about the error above but I’m trying to post something else but for some reason its not going through. Is there a problem at your end?

    Menelik


  510. Not at my end.


  511. To Menelik Charles:

    Please just come out and say that you will not believe what is plainly obvious to most black women because that would require you examine your own kind – fellow black men – and possibly even give up a bit of your male privilege. Because no amount of “links,” “quotes,” “proof,” “statistics” and otherwise is going to ever get you to admit that there is a pervasive culture of black men consistently degrading black women. They praise the attributes of every race of women but ours, and they actively partake in our criticism. I think you are reflexively responding this as an attack on you and thus refuse to consider the validity of what is being presented to you. How many quotes, exactly, would meet your burden of proof? 10? 100? Quotes are just a symptom of the DISEASE. A disease where black women’s personhood, femininity, sexual autonomy, intelligence, and LIVES are not ever considered, much less valued.

    Now you are going in this thread in an absurd intellectual tit-for-tat, determined to miss the forest for the trees. I have never commented on this blog before, but I would like to just tell anyone trying to debate with you about this particular topic not continue wasting their time or energy. You cannot educate those who do not want to learn, and you show absolutely no interest in actually LEARNING, just proving that “wahhh well black women dis black men too.”

    There is a CULTURE of American black men disrespecting the humanity of black women, and there are so many ways they do it that it would probably take me a couple years to give an example of each. I could give some personal anecdotes of the sexual and physical abuse I have endured at the hands of VARIOUS black males (and mostly as a child, but also as an adult), DESPITE living in overwhelmingly white areas that speaks to this idea of entitlement that just because I am a black female, I am not a person, a human being, I am an ass and some tits and I am their property to do with what they please. But I will not divulge personal details like that because you would not learn anything from it, and likely would try to say that what happened to me COULDN’T POSSIBLY have been based on these unhealthy social dynamics (because American black men just so highly cherish and value black women, apparently). But my personal experiences with abuse speak to the greater meme; they are a symptom of a collective opinion that I am worthless as a black female. As has been stated, the one black man who makes a “black women are *insert negative stereotype*” comment isn’t the only perpetrator, but so are the men around him who agree or stay silent.

    You want the women on this thread to prove something of which no proof will ever be enough. You will want to match each link they post with an “equivalent” or simply discredit the source for various reasons. You have an opinion and you are NOT open to learning and understanding where black women are coming from with these experiences; you seem to be hell-bent on simply disproving that our experiences that have led us to believe that black men to not value us as human beings are WRONG.

    I am not a transgendered person; thus, I am not qualified – and WILL not attempt to discredit a transgendered person when they speak about the discrimination they have faced or the negative attitudes they have had to endure. This post, as I have read, is about the experiences and the social dynamics of black AMERICAN women and the opinion of their beauty. What, exactly, makes you qualified to disagree with those who have LIVED THEIR ENTIRE LIVES subjected to this experience?


  512. ITA with Courtney’s first paragraph.


  513. i am a light skinned negro woman from the caribbean i have a straight nose. most of my family are darker skinned and when i was a child even now sometimes when we tell east indians that we are related they would say “they’re your family and their so black?” or often east indians would try to bad mouth black people with me because my shade isn’t that dark. i on the other hand as a child would be happy for these comments because i was ALWAYS jealous of darker skinned women wishing i could be as black as them and have smooth beautiful skin as theirs. i also loathed my nose still do in a way but have come to accept it because it is so white. i remember looking at the people in my family’s noses and wishing that mine was as flat and broad as theirs. i also wish i had full breasts like my fellow sisters and not these flat ones that i inherited from the white side of my family. anyway all i’m saying is that black women are some of the most beautiful, intelligent but overlooked group in our society. we need to stop fighting down each other just because we may be jealous of each other and stand together. uplift one another and our black men. take back and rebuild the strength of family that was taken from us during slavery and rise to the top that we were previously dragged down from. may god bless love you all.


  514. Courtney says,
    To Menelik Charles:

    Please just come out and say that you will not believe what is plainly obvious to most black women because that would require you examine your own kind – fellow black men – and possibly even give up a bit of your male privilege. Because no amount of “links,” “quotes,” “proof,” “statistics” and otherwise is going to ever get you to admit that there is a pervasive culture of black men consistently degrading black women. They praise the attributes of every race of women but ours, and they actively partake in our criticism. I think you are reflexively responding this as an attack on you and thus refuse to consider the validity of what is being presented to you. How many quotes, exactly, would meet your burden of proof? 10? 100? Quotes are just a symptom of the DISEASE. A disease where black women’s personhood, femininity, sexual autonomy, intelligence, and LIVES are not ever considered, much less valued.

    laromana says,
    Courtney, thanks so much for your excellent, insightful post. It pains me to hear that you have been vicitimized by certain BM in your life. This should NEVER have happened and I hope LESS BW are subjected to this garbage in the future.

    Until MOST BM decide to accept/deal with the truth about their ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE (or their UNWILLINGNESS to CHALLENGE/CONDEMN ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE), BW will need to CUT these type of BM out of their lives.


  515. I am a black woman, i am dark skinned, i am a tomboy. I am not conventionally attractive but my features are striking, i have narrow features that to some makes my face appear more symmetrical, some people think it gives me a more European look. I have one eye bigger than the other and a capped…..WHO CARES!!! Sistahs we need to learn to appreciate ourselves, who we are, dig really deep. Sometimes you could look amazing, and the guy you want to check you, or the guys you want to notice you don’t even give you the time of day because the assumption is that your dark, why do women’s whole identities revolve around the opinions of guys that don’t even think twice or blink twice. Guys who are probably too busy playing x boxes, or obsessing about the next celebrity car. The reality is as much as there is a loss there is a gain in someway. No matter how you argue or condemn society, the reality is as much as people have aright to their own opinions they have a right to their own prejudices as well, we don’t own their definition of attractive, or beautiful. Just because someone thinks your attractive or beautiful doesn’t mean in the long term their the right person for you or will treat you to the respect you feel you deserve. I’ve been there with light skinned friends and i’ve been there with dark skinned friends. I used to have a dark skinned friend that was a head turner, as in whoaaaa!! She was very dark, to some people her features were very plain, but she had a badass walk. And when she wanted to be noticed she’d make sure she was noticed. I always compared myself to her and felt like i was ugly in comparison because men can be quite brutal when their not interested in you, but she always ended up with pretty guys that treated her extremely badly. Guys who told her she was worth nothing because that’s how she felt about herself. I had a lightskinned friend who as much as she wanted to just be and get on with life peacefully, there was always insecure women criticizing her and insulting the way she looked. They’d pick out the smallest of things like her eyebrows, or that she’d put on weight, because they couldn’t bare how much attention she got. She wasn’t snooty or obnoxious she was very laidback, she went specifically for personality, and dated guys that a lot of women would snob.We have to find a way to love ourselves


  516. Ok-please show me the supermodels from Australian Aboriginal women.

    Well, there’s Samantha Harris to begin with. Admittedly, it took them a while…
    Ashleigh Peachey is a bit of a stunner too.

    I’ve met a couple of pretty Australian women of Aboriginal origin at a meeting in London once. They looked sort of like the girl in Bowie’s Let’s Dance video. I thought they didn’t look “unrepresentative for their culture” in any way.


  517. I just noticed there is another famous Samantha Harris.

    I was talking about her:
    http://cockatoo.files.wordpress.com/2006/09/samantha.jpeg


  518. I never ever been or will be attracted to ugly woman.
    I am not attracted to BLACK WOMEN.


  519. on Mon 4 Oct 2010 at 04:53:44 Stop with the white privilege shit

    There is not such thing as white privilege!!! BW need to learn that whites and non-whites say this so that you will feel inferior to their “ugliness” Yes, some whites are pretty (definately not all) some blacks are pretty, and so on. I am just so tired of the negative attitude toward BW. To me Jennifer Anniston and Sarah Jessica Parker are hideous, but you have more people saying that Gabrielle Union is ugly. WTF!! My point is that BW need to realize that men date and dump women of all races. If they think that a WW is attractive, that does not mean that he chose her soley due to her “whiteness”. No, he either likes her because he really wants to be with her or he just wants a piece. BW think about this long and hard.


  520. A general rule of thumb when dealing with Electronical issues [is this part bad? Its not working...]. Is if you have to ask the question then it is likely true. In this case, yes black women are not as good looking as other races of Women. And I am leaving out white women, since often times Black people will try to say “people of color” as though their issues are shared by all non-whites. Those problems are not shared by all non-whites though.

    For one, not everyone is created equal. The thought that EVERYTHING is equal is wishy washy and not reality. If it was true we are ALL equal then I would be as good looking as Brad Pitt is [and Im not]. And I would also be as creative as Einstein was when he pioneered Nuclear physics [once again Im not].

    Moving onto Race…Look at interracial relationships. As far as Black people go, Black men hook up with Asian woman [Tiger Woods mother], Hispanic Woman [Kobe Bryant's wife], White Woman [OJ, countless other Black men] ALL THE TIME. Yet hardly any black women are chased around by non-black men. There are some exceptions but its very rare.

    So to answer this question…Yes Black women are not as attractive as non-black women on average. I even have a hard time saying it but its just the truth. Even in Latin America and other regions on Earth, Black women are not chased by other races of men…While Black men routinely chase non-black women around whenever they are available. Facts are facts.

    But there are some good looking Black women of course.


  521. on Wed 20 Oct 2010 at 19:27:53 Menelik Charles

    Abagond said:

    I think black women are beautiful. To a degree that is just a preference of mine that not all men can be expected to share. I understand that and have no trouble with it. But in America it seems to go beyond just that: people’s racism makes black women seem uglier than they truly are.

    Roger said:

    yes, Black women are not as attractive as non-Black women on average. I even have a hard time saying it but its just the truth. Even in Latin America and other regions on earth, Black women are not chased by other races of men…

    Menelik replies:

    quite aside from the fact that ESPECIALLY in Latin America e.g. Brazil, you have mix-raced societies due, in large part, to the fact Black women were “chased” by white men from they moment they emerged in chains from the slave ships, your ‘evidence’ supporting the rest of your assertion is simply hilarious! Here it is below.

    Roger said:

    look at inter-racial relationships. As far as Black people go, Black men hook up with Asian women (Tiger Woods’ mother) Hispanic Women (Kobe Bryant’s wife) white women (OJ, countless other Black men) all the time.

    Menelik replies:

    try looking at intra-racial relationships and you’ll find that Black men prefer to date and marry Black women most of the time. Citing the marquee names of the inter-racial marriage circuit proves nothing…accept the old adage that exceptions prove the rule.

    Have a preference, by all means (Abagond does) but to spread racial mischief on a subject such as the present is to ask for all sorts of trouble. Is this what you are looking for, Roger?

    Over ‘n’ out.

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  522. Roger says,
    yes, Black women are not as attractive as non-Black women on average. I even have a hard time saying it but its just the truth. Even in Latin America and other regions on earth, Black women are not chased by other races of men…

    Menelik says,
    quite aside from the fact that ESPECIALLY in Latin America e.g. Brazil, you have mix-raced societies due, in large part, to the fact Black women were “chased” by white men from they moment they emerged in chains from the slave ships, your ‘evidence’ supporting the rest of your assertion is simply hilarious! Here it is below.

    laromana says,
    Menelik, thanks for confronting this ANTI-BW RACIST/HATER and challenging his LIES, MYTHS, and STEREOTYPES.
    PRO-BW supporters MUST DESTROY ALL brands of ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE and let the haters know the TRUTH that the HUMANITY/BEAUTY/FEMININITY of BW is EQUAL to that of ANY woman of ANY race and WORTHY of being RESPECTED.


  523. “Roger says,
    yes, Black women are not as attractive as non-Black women on average. I even have a hard time saying it but its just the truth.”

    What a shi**y thing to say. And it’s not even true.


  524. @ roger

    Would you get on a blog and insist that pistachio ice cream is THE BEST ice cream flavor in the world, and then argue with people who liked black cherry?

    Would you go to a Chevy car club blog and insist that Fords were the best cars on earth, and then argue that they should just accept the obvious “facts?”

    So why, when it comes to feminine beauty, do you suppose that your own preferences and observations are THE HOLY TRUTH on the matter, that all should acknowledge?

    Does it even occur to you that your own take on things may be a product of your own environment, upbringing, exposure, and aesthetic sense? Is it so inconceivable that other people be attracted to and value different things than you do, and for different reasons?

    Do yourself a favor, drop the self-importance, kid.


  525. I didnt make this Blog nor this thread. So dont shoot the messenger and all that jazz ok ? If you dont want to read a reply that doesnt suit what you believe then dont ask the question or read the thread. :)

    Besides that I do find many black women attractive, just not the majority of Black women. The majority are not as attractive as Asian women or White woman if you ask me. And that is why so many black men chase non-black woman. And to the person bringing up Brazil, well how about China and Japan ? The black populations there are tiny yet the same trend is seen there as is seen in the west – Black men hooking up with non-black women and black woman only being chased by Black men.

    Care to explain that ?

    As far as being called a racist goes…Thats pretty typical. Im not racist but if you all want to believe that then go ahead, im not going to let a word deter me from stating a opinion. :) For all I know you all are racists toward non-black people. Does it matter ? No.


  526. Besides that I do find many black women attractive, just not the majority of Black women.

    That’s because most women (and men, for that matter) look average… that’s what average means.

    -They don’t look exceptionally above average [beautiful] or exceptionally below average [ugly].

    “The majority are not as attractive as Asian women or White woman if you ask me.”

    Just answer me one question… have YOU actually seen the majority of

    1) Asian women in the world?
    2) White women in the world?
    3) Black women in the world?

    Or are you going by what you see on TV? How do you know what “THE MAJORITY” of any of these races actually look like? How many billions of people have you met?


  527. “Besides that I do find many black women attractive, just not the majority of Black women.”

    That’s because most women (and men, for that matter) look average… that’s what average means.

    -They don’t look exceptionally above average [beautiful] or exceptionally below average [ugly].

    “The majority are not as attractive as Asian women or White woman if you ask me.”

    Just answer me one question… have YOU actually seen the majority of

    1) Asian women in the world?
    2) White women in the world?
    3) Black women in the world?

    Or are you going by what you see on TV? How do you know what “THE MAJORITY” of any of these races actually look like? How many billions of people have you met?


  528. Well, I’m a multi-ethnic (black culture) lady and my boyfriend is chinese (american). He likes black women although i’m his first “black” girlfriend. I find it interesting that he has no like for “white” women even though he was born in the US. But he finds black women i don’t consider attractive to be attractive. i guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder because the women he finds nice looking i find very not so nice looking (lol). The only thing was him getting used to my kinky curly curly hair. He didn’t know about it until we started dating. But he did date a Latina girl with “wilder” hair than mine. but it’s nice to be able to look crazy with my hair all over the place when i have slept and not combed it and not feel ashamed or something. I do think my boyfriend is a little ignorant to black issues but def. not racist. But how did this happen? So maybe it is true that not finding black women nice looking is more racist than a cultural or phenotype preference. It’s a status thing it seems as well.


  529. I’m sorry about the very poor typing on my part. It’s almost 5 am and I can’t sleep although tired. :(
    I hope to do better next time.


  530. Oh, and I agree with King on the average part. Most people (without makeup) just look average to me. I am EXTREMELY picky on looks. Maybe a little too picky. :/
    On that average though a person may be more drawn to one group(s) a bit more for whatever reason.


  531. Thinking on this a little further (after reading some comments) because darker skin or broader features are considered unattractive and “black” women are stereotyped to have these phenotypes, we as a culture have to almost exaggerate the beauty of “black” women. With “white” women or other ethnic women they are allowed to have variety of pretty, cute, beautiful, alright, ugly, ect ect. But with “blacks” we were just seen as ugly and worthless. So, the i guess you can call backlash is that whenever someone thinks a “black” women or persons is ugly they are deemed as a racist. As the world is somewhat coming together a little more each day maybe we will get closer to what real beauty is (physically speaking). When a persons culture and phenotype not determine status which in turn determines the beauty pedal-stool.


  532. on Thu 21 Oct 2010 at 09:51:31 Menelik Charles

    Roger said:

    1) Black women are not as attractive as non-Black women on average. I even have a hard time saying it but its just the truth. Even in Latin America and other regions on earth, Black women are not chased by other races of men…

    2) Black women are not as attractive as Asian women or White woman if you ask me. And that is why so many black men chase non-black woman. And to the person bringing up Brazil, well how about China and Japan?

    Menelik replies:

    again, Roger, you can have whatever preference you choose; everyone here is for that (many are into men like you) but you are not here emphasising a preference but delivering an attack.

    Why?

    You have even resorted to (mis)using Black men to reinforce this really, very curious attack on the masses of Black women.

    Why?

    Why, for example, do you use Black men’s alleged activities to paint this image that Black women are of less value than other women; and which you further reinforce by stating your own non-Black female preferences?

    Why?

    There is something going on here, Roger, that I strongly suspect has NOTHING to do with you being a so-called racist. What is it, my man?

    You know, attractive women have a way of making men feel inadequate? You know, also that men have a way of hitting back at such women? We all know, for example, that Blondes are whores, right? But are these the ones who romantically and/or sexually reject men like you? Or those who abstain from casual sex because they’re aware of their high market value?

    Do you see where I’m going with this? Methinks you protest a little too much, Roger, my man! Your very curious unprovoked attack on the masses of Black women is beginning to seem like sour grapes to me.

    What’s going on, Roger?

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  533. King has a point. Many people don’t understand (or pretend to not udnerstand) the term “average”. Also, racism helps this image distortion in which black women are seen as uglier (on “average”) than the other races of women. Not to mention media: there are plenty of “conventionally attractive” white people in the media. Oh, and not to mention the (racist) beauty ideal itself.

    See… I could go on like this for hours. :D In a way, this is really a simple concept so one must think about the IQ of those who don’t get it.


  534. Hello all,
    Newbie from the Caribbean . If a non black person lives in a place where the blacks are poor ,he/she then makes the error of coming to the conclusion that all blacks are poor.
    And this is especially true for non black Americans, who make broad generalizations about blacks living in the U.S. and just outside of it as well.
    Most people in Latin America are poor,and the poorest of course would be the ones of African descent, whose women would not be able to look after themselves properly ,so i guess they won’t be sought after as potential mates.

    It’s really strange how the world works, most blogs or forums are American, so they have a distinct American flavour, so to most non black Americans (whites ,asians ,latino etc…) the most sought after women in their neck of the woods are non black.
    And while i’m not gonna speak for all European men and women, those that come to some Caribbean islands,come to seek out the blacks that live there, and i’m not talking about companionship only, sometimes they (European whites ) just want to hang out with the blacks to take a break from things European for a while.


  535. King, Menelik and Mira I don’t think there is any getting through to people like that, it’s convenient for them to think that way, I don’t think people are that stupid individually. When someone needs to put down another for no reason, much less a whole group of people, it always comes down to an inferiority complex…always.


  536. I know this is an older post but I had to put this out there. Has anyone ever thought perhaps black women are considered unattractive in modern culture as a white cultural response to the sexual degradation and abuse experienced by black women during slavery and the racial aparthied experienced in both the U.S. AND latin America. In fact it seems like something out of a Twilight Zone episode when contemporary people are able to overlook this.

    To put it in the vernacular: if black women are so ugly now, white men were definitely all up on them as recently as the Civil Rights era. In vintage books and articles written during that time period that focused on the planter class of the antebellum south, there were many writers that touched on the rampant sexual abuse of black female slaves by white planters and those in their employ. The writers often wrote in protest or tried to appeal to the christian morals of the planters or their wives to stop the behavior.

    Even after slavery, rampant abuse of black women by white males was common in both the north and south. White males up until the last 25 years have felt that they had the carte blanche right to any black female that came within view. Sounds like its a bit of a cover-up that since black people now have rights with those rights of course extended to black women’s bodies, that all of a sudden white men say “well, we don’t think you’re cute anyway, so there!” It’s the classic rapist’s response to being held accountable by his victims or even to an accusation of rape intended to negate/deny any possibility of wrongdoing. Surely, I CANNOT be the only one that sees this?

    The above can also be said for Latin America in terms of the rampant abuse —where do you think all of those mulatto women (and people) came from but unions whether forced or not between African women and Euro settlers. They are finding out that more and more the DNA characteristics of those in the U.S. represent the mix of a mestizo group rather than a monolithic race(much like in Latin America) so there was some mixing somewhere. I don’t think whites were forced to rape black women…


  537. Latrece,

    I think you are on to something very true…there is a saying, “Familiarity breeds contempt”

    In the US, white and black Americans have such a virulent relationship with each other that they no longer can “see the forest for the trees.”

    When I was in europe, the european men seemed totally fascinated with black women…they are considered “exotic” (not sure if that is good or bad) whereas, in the US, I think the media bombards society with what is considered beautiful and “exotic” and black women aren’t it…..

    Back home in the Caribbean, white men have no problems marrying black women because there is no stigma attached like in the US.


  538. I agree with Gen I dont think there is any use addressing commentors such as roger. I understand not letting him “get away” with his idiotic comments and assumptions but I think its futile in the end.

    I do agree with Menelik Charles in some regards. I feel because black women(as a group, on average ect.) dont genuflect before white men when it comes to relationships the away other races do some will just writ us off as ugly or whatever…A preemptive strike if you will. Reject them before they reject me…


  539. why is my comment in moderation?


  540. Re-post:

    I agree with Gen I dont think there is any use addressing commentors such as roger. I understand not letting him “get away” with his rude comments and assumptions but I think its futile in the end.

    I do agree with Menelik Charles in some regards. I feel because black women(as a group, on average ect.) dont genuflect before white men when it comes to relationships the away other races do some will just writ us off as ugly or whatever…A preemptive strike if you will. Reject them before they reject me…


  541. An example of this would have to be John Mayer. A reported asked Mayer if black women fawned over him at concerts…instead of answering the question, yes or no(Im assuming BW dont fawn over Mayer, he isnt attractive and he’s a weirdo if you ask me) he flips the script and answers that he has a “David Duke d*ck”; basically BW arent rejecting him, but he is rejecting them.

    I guess it would be a blow to his ego to just say: no, black chicks arent falling at my feet.


  542. @ Y

    If I met roger in my daily life, I probably wouldn’t bother. However, as I’m sure Abagond can attest, there are always far more lurkers on any blog, than posters.

    My point being that many people come to read this blog to weigh ideas or perhaps, to have their assumptions challenged. Whether the person I’m discussing with ever “gets it” or not, I always assume that someone out there might.


  543. So why are you here? Posting in thread dedicated to black women.


  544. I also should add, I just read through some of the responder, Roger’s posts. To be blunt, this person is an idiot. I expected someone to pipe in with the whole, “black women are not as attractive as other women because look at this XYZ interracial relationship.” I don’t even have a problem with this portion of his opinion. It is after all his take on the entire argument…his own lonely, bitter misinformed opinion. He is entitled to it.

    I do take offense at his intimation that we are not all created equal simply because we do not all look like Brad Pitt or have the intelligence of Einstein. Are you serious? Have we somehow stepped through a rift in the time space continuum only to end up in Nazi Germany with propaganda about lives not worth living and the philosophies of eugenics in both hands? Sounds like an incredible jump right? Well when you start basing the innate value of humans upon their intellectual abilities or outward appearances, the rest all becomes a slippery slope.


  545. I’m reading a ton of posts and comments to “catch up” here…I want to comment on many of the topics but have little time at the moment – I just want to say that this blog is a refreshing change from those that I’m used to reading, and I absolutely LOVE the way the regulars handle the troll attacks! :)
    More from me later…keep up the great work, Abagond!


  546. Linda says,
    In the US, white and black Americans have such a virulent relationship with each other that they no longer can “see the forest for the trees.”

    When I was in europe, the european men seemed totally fascinated with black women…they are considered “exotic” (not sure if that is good or bad) whereas, in the US, I think the media bombards society with what is considered beautiful and “exotic” and black women aren’t it…..

    Back home in the Caribbean, white men have no problems marrying black women because there is no stigma attached like in the US.

    laromana says,
    Thanks for pointing out these facts. As BW in the U.S., it’s easy to conclude that ALL men of EVERY race are ANTI-BW but we need to be reminded that this is NOT the case worldwide.


  547. @ King

    I suppose you are right. There are people lurking who will read someone like Roger’s comments and come to the conclusion that what he is saying is correct because of interracial stats or perceptions about who “chases” who. Although its obvious to you, me and many of the commentors here that IR states dont prove anything about the desirability/beauty of black women there are people that will use these numbers to “prove” something that cant be proven or disproved.


  548. I agree with you about, the numbers as proof, Y.

    People very often misinterpret numbers, because numbers are more often a snapshots rather than motion pictures.

    Imagine a horserace in which 20 horses are running down the track towards the finish line. If you were to take a snapshot of that race 10 seconds in, would that be a good indication of which horse was the fastest? Why not? Because the fastest horse off the line may not be the fastest horse overall. In order to understand the true abilities of all of the horses, relative to one another, you need to wait until the finish. It is only then that you know for certain which is fastest.

    But most bumbleheads think that they can take the numbers right now, without even knowing where the finish line is, and simply declare a winner based on the snap image that the statistics imply. These people are the ones who are always trying to get you to ACCEPT THE FACTS, you’re just not as pretty, or not as intelligent, of not as sophisticated. They will scream IT’s ALL BASED ON SCIENCE! But it’s really based on their own ignorance of what the figures indicate.

    These are the fools who think that the interracial outdating numbers, or IQ tests, or the number of people graduating from college, or making a certain dollar figure can indicate THE TRUTH about a “race” of people, based on the snapshot or series of snapshots, taken in any given moment of time. But, as in the horse race, you really can’t make any absolute judgements based on one second, (or even two or three) of the race, until it’s finished.

    Who’s to say that in 10 years, or 50 years, or 200 years, that the numbers won’t be totally different? Maybe the fastest horse off the line will prove not to be the fastest overall. It could be that African descended women may enjoy great popularity worldwide, at some point in the future. They may be perceived in different ways than many perceive them today, and appreciated for different reasons. Perhaps that part of the race is simply yet to be run.

    That’s the thing with human preferences, we are constantly changing them. I mean, 1600 years ago, the progenitors of the White people of today were seen as filthy and disgusting barbarians. Wholly uncivilized, inferior in the arts of war, and with a language that sounded like mindless blabbing. They were seen as parasites living off the table scraps of the Roman Empire, a minor irritation to the Pax Romana. But even these crude Barbarians have had their day, as many other have had theirs before them.

    Only a person completely unschooled in history and logic would suppose their current ascendency to be anything more remarkable than another group taking their temporary turn on the top before being replaced by the next group on it’s way up.


  549. Quoted from King
    …before being replaced by the next group on it’s way up.

    There are many of them that know that, and fear it like you nor I can ever imagine.


  550. Ahh lame, my quote tag didn’t work :/ lol


  551. @ King

    BRAVO! Exactly, great analogy!


  552. on Fri 22 Oct 2010 at 08:22:57 Menelik Charles

    @ Sister Y,

    the most prized female in the white supremacist American imagination, ‘the Blonde’, is also the most disparaged. Not only are Blonde-haired females dismissed as “easy lays”; they are also considered “dumb”.

    Remember, these “dumb broads” are so successful in the dating/marriage stakes that women of all hair-colours, and races, seek to mimic the blonde-haired appearance. Do they, thus, all wish to be deemed “dumb whores” or simply to be in a position to replicate the success of a highly desired category of females?

    Similarly, the most sexually abused race of females on the planet i.e. Black women, are dismissed as the “least attractive” of all categories of females…and yet, full lips, snub noses are considered the most attractive facial characteristics by evolutionary psychologists: as are a rounded posterior, long legs, short torsos and dark-brown colouring (via sun beds, lotions and injections) on females.

    Curiously, all of these characteristics are common to “ugly” Black women (almost exclusively) and white women are under increasing psycho-social pressure to adopt these “ugly” facial and anatomical characteristics!

    Black women’s primary problem is that their very appearance disrupts the racial beauty hierarchy atop which sits the scrawny blonde. The response by the white power collective is to protect this system of white supremacy by subjecting Black females to a mass public lynching. That is, to strip them of all of their assets, and applaud their presence in females less ‘Black’, less threatening, e.g. J-Lo, Jolie, Ms Berry and Ms Knowles.

    This not only devalues the Black female image in the mind of Black females themselves, but it also tells Black men that their women are unworthy of idealisation be it sexual or romantic (see RnB & Hip Hop videos for confirmation).

    The point is that Black women are deeply desired by white men, and even more deeply envied by white women. My book will provide all the necessary evidence supporting this assertion.

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  553. I actually agree with you, Menelik… Though I must note your wording was sexist (“dumb broads”, “whores”).


  554. on Fri 22 Oct 2010 at 08:40:29 Menelik Charles

    @Mira,

    I would have hoped you’d have noted that terms like “dumb, whore, and ugly” were in quotation marks.


  555. I don’t know if black women are so much desired, but it seems the racially ambiguous women are desired.


  556. on Fri 22 Oct 2010 at 08:55:35 Menelik Charles

    @ Mei Ly,

    you just “don’t know”, right? Then ask! The racially ambiguous look has the very direct objective of marginalising, ignoring and/or psychologically wounding the masses of Black women Black women.

    Did you think, for example, that Bo Derek wearing beaded, African cornrows in her hair was racially ambiguous? I didn’t; and neither did the masses of African-American females.


  557. Menelik,

    True. That’s why I didn’t accuse you of calling women “dumb whores”.

    And maybe I’m just cranky this morning (I don’t usually go around nitpicking people’s words seeking for questionable material).

    However, I agree with what you said. Especially about disrupting racial beauty hierarchy.

    Oh, you are writing a book… Based on anecdotal evidence or more scientific?


  558. Eh, my comment won’t post :/


  559. Gen,

    Is it in moderation? Maybe you used some of the “forbidden” words or quoted somebody who used them.


  560. on Fri 22 Oct 2010 at 09:53:22 Menelik Charles


  561. I wish I could see the video.


  562. cool video menelik.

    this is not an opinion but just a thought. perhaps people do not find all the features we consider black to be put together. for example, the lady spoke of big lips and angelina jolie. well, that is only ONE feature that would be associated with being black. On Kim Kardashion, it is only her butt. The ones who tan, it is only the tanning. Is what I am saying making sense? It’s about be racially tweaked and ambiguous.

    any thoughts? anyone?


  563. I think there is a mixed/racially ambiguous interest, in a way these people are often considered “exotic” but familiar, and there’s also a mixed-people-are-sexy stereotype.

    But I also think it’s about having “black” features (full lips, tan, etc) but without actually BEING black.


  564. on Fri 22 Oct 2010 at 10:14:02 Menelik Charles

    @ Mei Ly,

    the point is that ALL of the facial and anatomical features disparaged on Black women are celebrated on white women. This is not “tweaking” the evidence, darling, merely stating the facts!

    Here’s another fact we can gather from the evidence at hand: white men and women sub-consciously perceive Black women as the female racial ideal! The Ugly Sisters engendered an inferiority complex in the Cinderella JUST because she was beautiful and they envied her.

    It took a Fairy Godmother, and the hand of a Princess to save Cinderella from a life of personal drudgery and self-loathing. It will take but a mere man to save the masses of Black females from this fate, believe me!

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  565. i guess the title “black” means lower class. it isn’t really what “we” are but the title.
    titles mean a lot. it brings up feelings.
    democracy, socialism, communism, ect. we have a pre conceived notion. we label countries this way, however, they rarely follow the exact term or definition.
    on second thought, i think my example is very bad. i apologize. :/


  566. I have to disagree that black females are the ideal. Perhaps to some, but perhaps not to others. I do not find any particular “what we call race” an ideal.


  567. Here’s another fact we can gather from the evidence at hand: white men and women sub-consciously perceive Black women as the female racial ideal!

    I don’t know about this, and I am not sure if it’s possible to claim such a thing without extensive research (did anybody do a research on it?), and I don’t understand the “racial ideal” (what does that even mean?), but yes, I was always surprised to learn white women are “consciously” (to use your words) considered the most beautiful, given the fact black women (typically) have the most feminine body.


  568. on Fri 22 Oct 2010 at 10:32:03 Menelik Charles

    Mira said:

    I also think it’s about having “Black” features (full lips, tan, butts etc) but without actually BEING black.

    Menelik says:

    the reason for this is simple: the US has a caste system that goes something like this:

    “if you’re white, you’re alright;
    if you’re Brown, stick around;
    but if you’re Black, get back!”

    The cornerstone of white supremacy in the US is the white female. The same white female the white man placed atop a pedestal so he could “chase” and rape Black women. Something is wrong with this picture.

    Fact is Black women’s beauty is of such nonchalant grace; so sensual, and alluring, that white women have been aware since the time of the sexual enslavement of Black females that they simply couldn’t compete with them on a level playing field any more than white could compete with the obvious masculinity of Black males.

    Again, white men are NOT the cornerstone of white supremacy, white women are. White men simply set out to maintain it as long as they can get away with so doing.

    So, for example, you have Beyonce in place of Kelly, and Halle in place of Gabriel. All in the service of maintaining white female supremacy in ‘Black-face’. And thereby deflecting the direct assault on the white female’s status posed by darker hued Black females.

    The game is nearly up!

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  569. on Fri 22 Oct 2010 at 10:35:09 Menelik Charles

    Menelik said:

    here’s another fact we can gather from the evidence at hand: white men and women sub-consciously perceive Black women as the female racial ideal!

    Mira replied:

    I don’t know about this, and I am not sure if it’s possible to claim such a thing without extensive research…did anybody do a research on it?

    Menelik replies:

    as in “extensive research”? yeah, me!


  570. So, your books is going to be about situation in the US?

    that they simply couldn’t compete with them on a level playing field any more than white could compete with the obvious masculinity of Black males.

    Um… wtf? You do buy into a lot of stereotypes. Waaaaay to much stereotypes for somebody who is

    The “obvious masculinity of black males” is just a racist trick whites used- the same way they used the “ugly black woman” trope. There’s nothing “obviously” more/less masculine about any group of men, or more/less feminine about any group of women (my example with body shape was only one way you can look at it, not THE correct way).

    So if you want to do a true research… do it.

    Now, I don’t have anything against black males, quite the contrary. But there’s no way you can judge masculinity, attractiveness or any other feature of a racial group… Because there’s no such thing as biological race.

    Again, white men are NOT the cornerstone of white supremacy, white women are. White men simply set out to maintain it as long as they can get away with so doing.

    I agree that white women play a huge role in racism, and they are often not called out on their behaviour. I won’t go into “who is more racist” discussion, but it is true white women can get away with things white men can’t, and they are capable of many horrible things. The fact they were heavily discriminated against (and still are) and the fact they suffer or don’t have male privilege doesn’t mean they are not guilty for this.

    But if you want to take a historical approach, they simply didn’t have enough power to be cornerstones of white supremacy*- men had more power and they were the ones who organized everything, who colonized, enslaved, etc etc. If they didn’t put white women on pedestal and insisted on “pure woman” stereotype, there would be no need for women to buy into it.

    *Maybe I misunderstood the term “cornerstone of white supremacy”.

    So, for example, you have Beyonce in place of Kelly, and Halle in place of Gabriel.

    Who are Kelly and Gabriel?


  571. I meant to say “way to much stereotypes for somebody who is “doing extensive research”.


  572. Yeah Mira I don’t know why it didn’t go through, it was a reply to Mei Ly’s statement about racially ambiguous women. I think that’s just media clowns of today doing what they do best sating the white racists need to not feel like they’re being pused out of the picture while having some semblance of political correctness.

    Menelik you made some good points but you lost me here especially..

    …that they simply couldn’t compete with them on a level playing field any more than white could compete with the obvious masculinity of Black males.

    I know racism comes down to people being afraid of levled playing fields and hording resources but that reasoning runs in the same vein as Asian men not being masculine and Asian women being ultra feminine, both using Whites as some generic standard and that makes no sense. I think it’s that very same reasoning that makes some people believe that X group has some kind of monopoly on beauty in the first place.

    Ok I checked to make sure I didn’t using words that would fired off the spam filter lol.


  573. Oh, a know about Gabriele Union (though I wasn’t sure if he meant on her), and I know of Kelly Rowland (though i was never much of a “Destiny’s Child” fan).

    Thanks for the info.


  574. on Fri 22 Oct 2010 at 12:02:53 Menelik Charles

    Gen said:

    Menelik, you made some good points but you lost me here especially..

    “…that they simply couldn’t compete with them on a level playing field any more than white could compete with the obvious masculinity of Black males”.

    Menelik asks:

    adopting Black characteristics while Black women are quietly ignored (i.e. psycho-racially oppressed) is a sub-conscious recognition by white women that they cannot directly compete with Black women in terms of aesthetic and physical femininity.

    No female can.

    The “ultra femininity” of Asian females, for example, is largely centred on their openly submissive personas NOT on their physical forms which are far from “ultra” feminine.

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  575. on Fri 22 Oct 2010 at 15:40:58 Menelik Charles


  576. on Fri 22 Oct 2010 at 15:48:58 Menelik Charles

    The point is, white men and women make far greater efforts to be Black than we (‘brainwashed’) Blacks make in efforts to be white.

    Hmmm.

    So Black women are “ugly”, eh? And blondes are “dumb ‘n’ sluttish” right? Will someone please google the phrase REACTION FORMATION and tell me what it means? Go on: I dare you!

    Thanks in advance.

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  577. Kelly Rowland is a gazillion times more beautiful than Beyonce, IMO. She just glows. But it was the Knowles family, not the media, that put her in the background, and everything just followed from there. Halle and Gabrielle are more equal, but Halle’s beauty is more processed and bought.

    I’ve noticed people tend to give lighter skinned women the “tip”, all things being equal between them and darker-skinned women. This is weird to me, since my mind seems to work in the opposite direction.


  578. that video is awesome.


  579. I find most white women to be completely unattractive and they must as well because they get so much plastic surgery in a weak attempt to bolster their flgging physical appearance. Black women are the most beautiful women on earth and they need to wake up and realise that.


  580. on Fri 22 Oct 2010 at 16:32:52 Menelik Charles


  581. @ Lovedreamer

    Well, I think as was said earlier on, in this thread, everyone is totally entitled to their own opinion and preference, as long as they see them as such.

    Some people up the thread a bit have preferences that are completely the reverse of yours. All of that is fine, if you’re into color selection.

    I personally would say that most White women look average, just like every other race.


  582. laromana says,
    Thanks for pointing out these facts. As BW in the U.S., it’s easy to conclude that ALL men of EVERY race are ANTI-BW but we need to be reminded that this is NOT the case worldwide.

    Linda:
    No problem, chica….I think it’s easy for us BW to get caught up in the media BS about what is considered beautiful…no one can tell me that I don’t look good because of my colour…my life experience says the opposite…

    I agree with Menelik about colourism being a problem, Especially amongst coloured people (no matter what culture)… for black females, the lighter-skinned or more mixed you appear, you are considered more desireable.. from what I’ve read it seems that different Asian cultures have this colourism problem as well…


  583. It could be a case of the “grass is always greener on the other side” or it could a left over legacy from white colonial days (in the diaspora–slavery)…the British had a hand on every continent…

    It seems so schitzophrenic: white women want/buy the features that black/latina women are born with, but yet black women don’t get the media/society adoration for them (lips, butt, hips, temper)

    Yes, I said temper because in US, it seems OK for Italien women to have “hot tempers”, white Americans smile and say “it’s in their blood”……but black women are considered loud/mean and aggressive when they display the same behavior as the Italien chicks…

    Black women are always being compared to the other women. One feature that most men (regardless of race) seem to like and claim that black women on average don’t have… is the hair (long)…so black women buy hair extensions…..

    I wear my hair naturally curly/afro (no chemicals)–typically in a bun or with a wrap…no comments (good or bad)…when I straighten it out, it reaches the middle of my back, all of a sudden I have strangers (the hair police–black men/women) stop me in the store to ask “if it’s mine”, or want to run their fingers thru my hair to check for tracks (hair weave)…like it’s not possible for a non light-skinned black women to have naturally long hair…

    the fact that black people pay so much attention to something such as long or short hair is an unconscious conformation to beauty standards set by the Eurocentric media…

    when Beyonces sister (Solange), went natural, she received soo many negative comments (from black/white) but yet Beyonce is still praised and put out as an “example” of black beauty….I wander if she would still be considered so attractive by society and the media if she stopped rocking her weaves and went natural…


  584. “I agree with Menelik about colourism being a problem, Especially amongst coloured people (no matter what culture)… for black females, the lighter-skinned or more mixed you appear, you are considered more desireable.”

    Well, colorism used to be a big issue in assessing the attractiveness of Black men, but somehow this changed somewhere in the 1990s.

    The old preferred look:

    http://static1.purepeople.com/articles/1/12/04/1/@/55580-mario-van-peebles-637×0-1.jpg

    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2381/2101041336_58b1c32d11_m.jpg

    But these days, that look seems to be far less of a draw with women.


  585. King@
    “Well, colorism used to be a big issue in assessing the attractiveness of Black men, but somehow this changed somewhere in the 1990s.”

    For sure, those looks were media driven back then and now, darker skinned black men (like Seal) have been getting their due…Tyson Beckford (very yummy) I think helped set the trend…


  586. on Fri 22 Oct 2010 at 17:24:57 Menelik Charles

    Linda said:

    the fact that black people pay so much attention to something such as long or short hair is an unconscious conformation to beauty standards set by the Eurocentric media…

    Menelik replies:

    and the fact that white women so much time and money on sun beds, tanning lotions, melotan injections; botox in lips and faces and buttocks enhancements, “is an unconscious confirmation” of what exactly?

    That at a sub-conscious level the ideal facial and physical forms are Afrocentric and NOT Eurocentric? I mean, come on, there’s far more social pressure on Black women to conform to white beauty standards than the other way around, and yet…

    Like I said above: the Black women represents the ideal beauty form in US society NOT white women! The evidence is seeping out daily supporting my assertion (an assertion for which I have concrete evidence for in my book).

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  587. I think Halle Berry is soooo beautiful! But I hear from blacks and whites that they don’t really think so.
    I still do not buy white women secretly want to be black though. Many other ethnic groups share “black” features. Many blacks have “white” features. However, I do find it strange that the features white women go after like the blonde hair, larger lips, ect are in turn discriminated against and called bad names.


  588. “I still do not buy white women secretly want to be black though. Many other ethnic groups share “black” features. Many blacks have “white” features. However, I do find it strange that the features white women go after like the blonde hair, larger lips, ect are in turn discriminated against and called bad names.

    No ethnicity owns specific features. If you look around, lips, butts, hips, hair, eyes, etc. You’ll find many of the same features broadly shared across several ethnicities with exceptions and outliers in every ethnicity.

    Of course that cuts both ways though. I think that Menelik’s main point is, why is it always seen as self-hate and race envy when Blacks alter their features, but not when Whites alter theirs?


  589. on Fri 22 Oct 2010 at 18:41:19 Menelik Charles

    Mei Ly:

    I still do not buy white women secretly want to be black though.

    Menelik says:

    madam, I’m not trying to sell you anything! Don’t you get that yet?


  590. Menelik@
    “That at a sub-conscious level the ideal facial and physical forms are Afrocentric and NOT Eurocentric? I mean, come on, there’s far more social pressure on Black women to conform to white beauty standards than the other way around, and yet…

    Like I said above: the Black women represents the ideal beauty form in US society NOT white women! The evidence is seeping out daily supporting my assertion (an assertion for which I have concrete evidence for in my book).”

    Linda says:
    Hmmm, that’s a tough one to wrap around…I see where you’re trying to go with that but the road is not that straight…they may not realize that the features they desire are common to black women because they only want it when they are told by their “media” that this feature is the new trend…and they see it on a white actress or model…

    fashion magazines that cater to white women sell because those chicks read them and actually aspire to look like the models..(anorexia huge problem in US white girls)

    I think white American women aspire to look more like Adriana Lima than Beyonce…they want the features that they believe make them more alluring (according to the media) without looking “black”– they want the “best of all worlds” –like a mixed latina (ie Eva Longoria or Jennifer Lopez)..which is as dark as they want to go….

    As far as the American white womens standard of beauty, the media and society sets that via trends (except blondes, they never go out of style)…if the trend is big lips, then that’s what they want to buy…just like now, the trend for breast implants is for them to go smaller or be removed…

    I think with black women, it’s the other way around, we set the trends in our own back yards, then the media follows…and then wants to introduce it to the white world as the “newest thing”….

    As far as the trend right now, true black beauty in the media, the east African models get the most praise for their “sleek” features (thin nose, thin lips, high cheek bones)…they are put on the pedastal in the fashion world as being beautiful and “exotic” as far as black women go….

    http://fg2bh.wordpress.com/2009/10/23/liya-kebede-hearts-hm/

    http://www.instyle.com/instyle/package/general/photos/0,,20276967_20285931_20634916,00.html

    http://mochabelle.blogspot.com/2009/02/ethnic-model-alert-ubah-hassan.html

    http://www.modelsandmoguls.com/2010/08/03/new-movie-on-supermodel-genital-mutilation-experience-waris-dirie-liya-kebede-desert-flower/


  591. Menelik Charles says,
    -Similarly, the most sexually abused race of females on the planet i.e. Black women, are dismissed as the “least attractive” of all categories of females…and yet, full lips, snub noses are considered the most attractive facial characteristics by evolutionary psychologists: as are a rounded posterior, long legs, short torsos and dark-brown colouring (via sun beds, lotions and injections) on females.
    -Curiously, all of these characteristics are common to “ugly” Black women (almost exclusively) and white women are under increasing psycho-social pressure to adopt these “ugly” facial and anatomical characteristics!
    -Black women’s primary problem is that their very appearance disrupts the racial beauty hierarchy atop which sits the scrawny blonde. The response by the white power collective is to protect this system of white supremacy by subjecting Black females to a mass public lynching. That is, to strip them of all of their assets, and applaud their presence in females less ‘Black’, less threatening, e.g. J-Lo, Jolie, Ms Berry and Ms Knowles.
    -This not only devalues the Black female image in the mind of Black females themselves, but it also tells Black men that their women are unworthy of idealisation be it sexual or romantic (see RnB & Hip Hop videos for confirmation).
    -adopting Black characteristics while Black women are quietly ignored (i.e. psycho-racially oppressed) is a sub-conscious recognition by white women that they cannot directly compete with Black women in terms of aesthetic and physical femininity.
    No female can.
    -The “ultra femininity” of Asian females, for example, is largely centred on their openly submissive personas NOT on their physical forms which are far from “ultra” feminine.

    laromana says,
    Menlik, thanks for your excellent analysis of the dynamics behind ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE and explaining how it is a SINGULAR experience that BW are FORCED to endure in order to further the “White supremacy” agenda.
    I think it’s DESPICABLE/UNACCEPTABLE for the quality of BW’s lives/relationships to CONTINUE to be NEGATIVELY affected by ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE.

    PRO-BW supporters need to use the facts you noted to help DESTROY ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE and replace it with the RESPECT/APPRECIATION for the HUMANITY/DIGNITY/FEMININITY of BW that we DESERVE.


  592. It sounds plausible when biologists say that big eyes, full lips and a smaller nose is related to higher oestrogen levels in women, thus signalise higher fertility. Therefore men are subconsciously more attracted to women with those features. I’m not surprised to say the least.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article597433.ece

    I’ve also read somewhere that those features, especially relatively big eyes and a less protruding nose, are reminiscent of a small child pattern. Perhaps it triggers, subconsciously, some sort of protective instinct in males. (I admit though, I’m on thin ice with this one.)

    The likelihood to find all three features is highest in black women.

    However, I think even more than ever that a lot of people delude themselves thinking white women are the uncontested beauty queens throughout. (Just watch the videos above…)


  593. Reaction Formation:
    Reaction Formation is where a person avoids one position by taking a polar opposite position.


  594. Okay, I think I actually have some time to write a longer post!

    I feel that racism does indeed play a part with regard to how whites and other non-blacks perceive the looks of black women. This perception is one that I’ve had to face all of my life, as I was raised in one of the whitest states in the USA – Alaska. Books, music, sports, wildlife and the outdoors allowed me to stay relatively sane during my formative years.

    I moved to Seattle at the age of 21 to pursue a modeling career and threw myself into that endeavor for five years. I learned very quickly that I was in the wrong part of the country for that; indeed, I was in the wrong corner of the world! Endless ‘cattle-calls’ and auditions where I faced rejection, time and again, due to being the only black face in the room. Did the white girls look better than me? Nope. Only in the eyes of the white agents, and that was a very subjective view at best. I know that I’m an attractive woman and nobody, especially some race-baiting supremacist bunghole, will tell me or convince me otherwise. The trolls that lurk here operate under the ABB premise, or one that’s even worse (I saw this tattooed on some white-trash trailer queen’s neck): “If it ain’t white, it ain’t right!”

    My personal views on beauty are summed up quite easily: NOBODY has a monopoly on beauty or ugliness – it can be found everywhere, in everyone. Those who look at it strictly from the surface are deluded and narrow-minded. Believing that an airbrushed, plasticine fembot is the epitome of beauty is akin to believing that Britney Spears is the best singer in the world simply because she uses synthesizers to enhance and alter her vocals.


  595. @sam:

    I’m thinking that I need to add Finland to my list of places to visit when I travel! : )


  596. on Sat 23 Oct 2010 at 00:19:43 Menelik Charles

    Linda said:

    whites may not realize that the features they desire are common to black women because they only want it when they are told by their “media” that this feature is the new trend…and they see it on a white actress or model…

    Menelik replies:

    I cannot recall the last time I read such provocative nonsense! Are you seriously expecting sane people to believe that white people are so fundamentally unaware of the difference between Black and white racial characteristics that they could peddle butt implants, plump lips, and brown skins (to flat-arsed, thin-lipped, anaemic) white gals without the masses of whites being in anyway familiar with whom such a characteristics are most common to?

    Are you on medication or something?

    I find your comments deeply offensive! Black people lay at the very core of the white psych; indeed, the white beauty ideal is founded on the very degradation of Black racial characteristics as they appear on Black women! And apparently you don’t know this?

    Look, if you cannot cope either emotionally or intellectually with the compelling strength of my argument, Linda, then feel free to ignore my posts entirely. Better that than to insult the intelligence of all who read your words.

    Thank you.

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  597. on Sat 23 Oct 2010 at 00:31:34 Menelik Charles

    sepultura13 said:

    believing that an airbrushed, plasticine fembot is the epitome of beauty is akin to believing that Britney Spears is the best singer in the world simply because she uses synthesizers to enhance and alter her vocals.

    Menelik says:

    sister, I’d struggle to put it better myself! Tell me, do you by any chance aspire to be a writer?

    Just asking.

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  598. on Sat 23 Oct 2010 at 00:38:01 Menelik Charles


  599. on Sat 23 Oct 2010 at 00:41:03 Menelik Charles

    Re the above video. fast forward to 2mins 12secs to see how this guy uses polish to transform himself into a virtual Black man! Then look at the Black man next to him…who need use no such cosmetic alteration.


  600. “who need use no such cosmetic alteration”

    Except for the steroids of course.


  601. that dudes arm looks like an upside-down ballsack


  602. Menelik,

    Thank you me backside……you’re the one sprouting psych-babble….so I suggest you stop smoking whatever is clouding your ability to think

    or you know what, I am going to assume that I did not make my point clear enough and it was left open for misinterpretation….

    I am not saying that white women are unaware about black womens features…

    I am saying that black women don’t get praised for our features

    and the only reason white women want the lips and hips is because WHITE women see other WHITE women with it…..this is perpetuated by WHITE media

    no white woman looks at a black woman and goes “Gosh, I just have to look like her…

    You have a nerve to be insulted when half of what you’re saying sounds like a bunch of bulls_it…

    I don’t need you to tell me when to talk…keep your facetiness to yourself and take your own advice and ignore me….


  603. on Sat 23 Oct 2010 at 02:23:22 Menelik Charles

    Linda said:

    WHITES MAY NOT REALIZE that the features they desire are common to Black women because they only want it when they are told by their “media” that this feature is the new trend…and they see it on a white actress or model…

    Menelik replied:

    I cannot recall the last time I read such provocative nonsense! Are you seriously expecting sane people to believe that white people are so fundamentally unaware of the difference between Black and white racial characteristics that they could peddle butt implants, plump lips, and brown skins (to flat-arsed, thin-lipped, anaemic) white gals without the masses of whites being in anyway familiar with whom such characteristics are most common?

    Linda replied:

    I AM NOT SAYING that white women are unaware about Black women’s features.

    Menelik replied:

    No? I think you should re-read your words above, madam!

    Linda said:

    the only reason white women want the lips and hips is because WHITE women see other WHITE women with it…..this is perpetuated by WHITE media

    no white woman looks at a black woman and goes “Gosh, I just have to look like her…

    Menelik replied:

    Do the masses of Black women look at the long, straight, hair of white women and say “gosh, I wish I had hair like that!”? No. The desire is almost entirely sub-conscious…as is the desire by white females to acquire Black female facial and anatomical characteristics.

    Linda said:

    you have a nerve to be insulted when half of what you’re saying sounds like a bunch of bulls_it…I don’t need you to tell me when to talk…keep your facetiness to yourself and take your own advice and ignore me…

    Menelik replies:

    and you have the nerve to come across as your typical “strong, feisty, Black woman”: reactionary, irrational, truculent, and totally without grace!

    Good day, madam!

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  604. Thad…oops, I mean, Menelik…..Whatever!!

    I have no desire to debate stupidness with you or play childish tit-for-tat….


  605. Linda and roger, don’t worry, I don’t think Black women would miss either of you as a potential friend or romantic partner.


  606. on Sat 23 Oct 2010 at 09:13:11 Menelik Charles


  607. on Sat 23 Oct 2010 at 09:21:17 Menelik Charles

    The above video is of a relatively young, attractive, blonde-haired, female with a typically Eurocentric body-type i.e. small, relatively flat posterior, square hips, and thin, arm-like thighs.

    the inflated breasts, long, blonde hair, and heavy make-up, are the most obvious clues that the person in the video is actually a woman. The body itself is not.

    This is not a condemnation but an accurate, honest, observation. I am simply saying what I (and you) see.

    Thank you.

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  608. on Sat 23 Oct 2010 at 09:24:32 Menelik Charles


  609. on Sat 23 Oct 2010 at 09:41:23 Menelik Charles

    Re: the Bria Myles video above. Some things are just so damned obvious it hurts! The curvy, apple-shaped posterior, the rounded hips ‘n’ small waist; the snubbed nose, and full lips. All of which is wrapped up in a glistening, chocolate-brown skin. There is simply no mistaking/doubting this young lady’s female status!

    Oh, a question for ya: why did the Ugly sisters hate on Cinderella?

    Just asking!

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  610. Still debating this one? Well I just say one thing: No.

    Black women are not ugly. As a matter of fact, theres plenty of them who could walk into any KKK meeting and make those pointy hood hecklers drop their robes and peg for mercy from God Almighty in the face of such Beauty.

    @linda: Well, white womens craze with bigger butt and those lips is an imitation of black women. That is a fact. And just to point out how desirable those black features have been for ages, check out Sophi Loren!! One of the all time sex symbols. And lo behold, what she got that the most white women do not have? Yeah, that is right! Those lips, those boobs and that butt. Now does that remind me of some women I’ve seen hmmm…?

    Oh yeah! I’ve seen many black women who have had the same features! Many, many black women like that! :-D

    PS. Just to avoid the debate that we had sometime ago: I do not hate any women, I love women, no matter what size or shape they are. I have nothing against nobody. I have had relationships with skinny and round women. I like woman with a personality etc. :-D


  611. “@linda: Well, white womens craze with bigger butt and those lips is an imitation of black women. That is a fact”

    I’ve been studying A** since I was belt high to a buckle and let me just say that…many, many, many white girls have A** too OK? Black women do not have a patent on the booty. (Or for that matter melanin. WP also end up with tanned skin from exposure to the sun.) Saying that white women have flat asses and thin lips isn’t racist but it is ignorant.


  612. on Sat 23 Oct 2010 at 13:14:03 Menelik Charles

    @ jasOnburns,

    I’m not sure if you’re Black person akin to a male Debra Dickerson character, or how old you are; but really, you’re talking absolute nonsense!

    For example: I’ve been studying eyes since I belt high to a buckle, and let me tell you; many, many, Oriental females have almond-shaped eyes.

    This assertion is abject nonsense, and anyone who maintains it as true is beyond rational debate.

    jasOnburns

    saying that white women have flat asses and thin lips isn’t racist but it is ignorant.

    Menelik replies:

    Hmmm…more “ignorant” than true OR more true than “ignorant”? I guess white white women haven’t generally got flat arses and thin lips, then…nor even pale skins. In jasOn’s world, they are full-lipped, rounded-bootied babes with deep, dark, tanned skin by nature (no surgery or sunbeds required).

    What a guy!

    Sometimes conversing with some people is akin to living in the ‘twilight zone’…that space between madness and sanity in which reality is turned on its head and passed off as an illusion lol

    Some parents have an awful lot to answer for!

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  613. on Sat 23 Oct 2010 at 13:19:44 Menelik Charles


  614. @Menelik…i don’t think you were selling anything, just stating your opinions. and i stated mine.


  615. on Sat 23 Oct 2010 at 15:08:23 Menelik Charles


  616. on Sat 23 Oct 2010 at 15:11:16 Menelik Charles

    The above video singing the prize of black women’s butts via Sir-Mixa-Lots sensational ‘Baby Got Back’. This version is really quite mellow: I enjoyed it.

    Menelik Charles
    London UK


  617. the big bustle on the dress back in the 1800′s came from wanting a big butt. i heard something like that. The europeans put on display an african woman with a large bottom and that is how it came about. i could be wrong on this. anyone know the whole story? or heard of it?


  618. @King
    that was the point i was trying to make.


  619. “I guess white white women haven’t generally got flat arses and thin lips, then…nor even pale skins. In jasOn’s world, they are full-lipped, rounded-bootied babes with deep, dark, tanned skin by nature (no surgery or sunbeds required).”

    If I were to attempt to restate that in a less obnoxiously condescending tone I might say:

    In my world people don’t walk around strictly conforming to racial types. Who’s world is more real I wonder?

    jas0nburns
    Cleveland, Ohio.


  620. on Sat 23 Oct 2010 at 15:48:32 Menelik Charles

    Sometimes conversing with some people is akin to living in the ‘twilight zone’…that space between madness and sanity in which reality is turned on its head and passed off as an illusion lol


  621. If you think white women can’t have fat asses, MC, you’ve never been to Wisconsin.


  622. on Sat 23 Oct 2010 at 16:17:55 Menelik Charles

    @ Thad,

    do you really need to comment on anything I say? Or are you just looking for trouble?

    All Black women have flat noses; true or false?

    What sort of dumb ass question is this?


  623. Linda,

    “no white woman looks at a black woman and goes “Gosh, I just have to look like her…”

    A few white woman have said to me that they love my lips, and one insisted they were “fake” (because black people don’t generally have full lips?…) but yeah, I see your point. However, I doubt they don’t realize that these characteristics are more common on black women. That is, if they live on planet Earth.

    jas0nburns,

    “I’ve been studying A** since I was belt high to a buckle and let me just say that…many, many, many white girls have A** too OK? Black women do not have a patent on the booty. (Or for that matter melanin. WP also end up with tanned skin from exposure to the sun.) Saying that white women have flat asses and thin lips isn’t racist but it is ignorant.”

    It’s interesting how, whenever supposed “positive” characteristics come up, people start pulling out the “black people don’t have a corner on it” card.

    Umm… sure.

    I don’t think it’s ignorant to say that white women/people generally have flatter bottoms and narrower hips than do black women/people. It’s true. The same way they generally have paler skin, thinner lips, and narrower noses. There are white people with wider noses and darker skin, but these are more common on black people/women. Just like there are black people (without admixture) that have paler skin and narrower noses, like my sister and mother. But the general trend isn’t towards that. How can you even argue with this? The whole idea of “race” is based on those superficial characteristics. It is not racist nor ignorant to say this.


  624. I don’t think it’s ignorant to say that white women/people generally have flatter bottoms and narrower hips than do black women/people. It’s true. The same way they generally have paler skin, thinner lips, and narrower noses.

    This is all cherry picking and tautologies. It’s “true” insofar as you restrict your definitions of “white” and “black” to those peoples who already meet the conditions that you are trying to prove.

    What you’re effectively saying is “White people are those people who have paler skin than black people, so white people thus have paler skin than black people.”

    Tautology. They are easy to make and there’s nothing logical or rational about them.


  625. Don’t shoot the messenger.
    ;)


  626. Well.

    We do know races are a cultural construct and blah blah blah. But race still does matter, and there are certain features that sure seem to be more common to people who identify themselves (or are viewed as) members of a particular race. Those labeled “white” DO, on average, have a lighter skin than those labeled “black”. They also have narrower noses and thin lips.

    It doesn’t mean there are no many (as in: millions <- my estimate :D) people who don't fit this criteria. Hey, there's no such thing as a woman with a flat ass in my family, but it's not the point.


  627. Those labeled “white” DO, on average, have a lighter skin than those labeled “black”. They also have narrower noses and thin lips.

    I sincerely wonder, Mira. I mean given the tautological nature of all this.


  628. I find it interesting that i always had the stereotype that white women had wider hips and flat butts. But black women had large bottoms but narrow hips. :/


  629. I have to agree with Linda. The Beyonce/Halle Berry mulatta look is generally considered quite beautiful in the US, but white women don’t really aspire to that appearance. Rather it would seem that some want to look “Mediterranean” or light Hispanic or to look specifically like Angelina Jolie.


  630. Black women and White women come in a variety of shapes and with a variety of features. All people do.

    Black women do NOT corner the market on booty.
    Asian women do NOT corner the market on being petite.
    Indian women do NOT corner the market on long hair.

    The stereotypical of the Black woman has her cornered and restricted into a certain look. In reality, there are Black women, in great quantities, who can fit into almost every look. “The Majority” of Black women don’t fit the American stereotype of what a Black woman is supposed to look like.

    It’s a wrong assumption when the White Supremacists say it.
    It’s a wrong assumption when the Black Supremacists say it.


  631. Natasha,

    What I find interesting is the idea that a flat ass is possibly a negative, but not a deal-breaker, on a White woman, but it’s an absolute no-no on a Black woman. The underlying assumption seems to be that a round booty on a White woman is a plus, but on a Black woman it’s the only thing that can get her in the door.

    I wouldn’t hazard a guess as to how many people (relatively) feel this way, but I do notice a trend among White men who swear up and down that a big a** is a must and yet don’t seem to have a problem engaging in relationships with flat-as-a-pancake White women.


  632. Perhaps because I live in a country that has always actively questioned the myth of racial purity, I find all this “White/black women are generally this or that” stuff to be bulls***.


  633. To answer the question, this myth that black women are ugly is just that, a myth (untrue etc.). It is impossible for one race of people to ALL be ugly. It’s just ridiculous white racism at its best, and don’t believe them, they don’t have anyones best interest at heart, obviously.


  634. King

    …Black women and White women come in a variety of shapes and with a variety of features. All people do. ..

    …Black women do NOT corner the market on booty…

    …It’s a wrong assumption when the White Supremacists say it.
    It’s a wrong assumption when the Black Supremacists say it….

    Hmm…Well, I guess its true to say Black and white women, in general, are a diverse lot. As diverse as say there are definitions for “Black” and “white”. But this in itself has never stopped people from making general observations or expressing opinions about the two:

    “…Black women do NOT corner the market on booty…”

    Oh… I think they do!!! Why else would white people have set out to study Saartjie Baartman. Otherwise known as the “Hottentot Venus”. This was not a comparative contrasting study with European white women of the time. There was no equivalent!!! Why they even made a “sanitised” film version of it!!

    So yes. Some occasional white women may have what Black people might call a “booty” but they are hardly a standard for it!

    “…It’s a wrong assumption when the White Supremacists say it.
    It’s a wrong assumption when the Black Supremacists say it….”

    NO. The WRONG assumption to make or imply is that there is an equivalent historical ideology of “Black supremacy” to white supremacy. This simply is not true.

    Incidentally, if we were to look for or set a standard for long wavy “blonde” hair. Who would you expect to corner the market on this?


  635. @jasmin…maybe what we consider a flat butt is not flat for a white woman. perhaps?


  636. on Sun 24 Oct 2010 at 16:56:37 Menelik Charles

    King said:

    Black women do NOT corner the market on booty

    Kwamla said:

    Oh… I think they do!!! Some occasional white women may have what Black people might call a “booty” but they are hardly a standard for it!

    Incidentally, if we were to look for or set a standard for long wavy “blonde” hair. Who would you expect to corner the market on this?

    Menelik says:

    thanks for your timely intervention, brother man; for a moment (what with Thad, jasOn & King on the loose) I thought I’d been stuck in the ‘Twilight Zone’!

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  637. Mei Ly,

    Who knows? It’s not as if I expect butt size/shape to be some defining feature of attractiveness, but anyone who only goes on about how he lurves him a big a** when talking about Black women gets the side-eye from me.


  638. “It’s not as if I expect butt size/shape to be some defining feature of attractiveness, but anyone who only goes on about how he lurves him a big a** when talking about Black women gets the side-eye from me.”

    I completely agree! A booty is on the lower tier of features. That’s the last thing that I would like a man to notice.

    Any man who makes that priority is suspect.


  639. “Hmm…Well, I guess its true to say Black and white women, in general, are a diverse lot. As diverse as say there are definitions for “Black” and “white”.

    Thank you, that’s what I’m trying to say. But also the fact that are dividing the world into two colors (assuming that “cornering the market” only means outdoing the White people) is classic Americanthink, and quite shortsighted.

    How about Middle Eastern women, Polynesian women, Latina women, Southeast Asian women? Do they come into this at all or is the whole world just Black and White?

    “Why else would white people have set out to study Saartjie Baartman. Otherwise known as the “Hottentot Venus”. This was not a comparative contrasting study with European white women of the time. There was no equivalent!!!”

    False argument. There is also no equivalence with 99% of Black women to Sara Baartman’s dimensions. How many Black women do you think look like this???

    http://www.truthdig.com/images/eartothegrounduploads/sarah_baartman_rendering3.jpg

    Indeed, the fact that Sara alone was taken back to England for study actually indicates that she stood out from her peers and was not simply “normal” for African women of that region.

    “NO. The WRONG assumption to make or imply is that there is an equivalent historical ideology of “Black supremacy” to white supremacy. This simply is not true.

    That is a completely illogical deduction. Do you believe that every time that ANY claim of White supremacy and BlacK supremacy are compared, that this indicates that an argument for TOTAL historical equivalency between the two is being made? Because if you do, that would be wrong.

    “Incidentally, if we were to look for or set a standard for long wavy “blonde” hair. Who would you expect to corner the market on this?”

    Incidentally, that is a red herring, because you have already acknowledged that blondness and bootyness are not equivalent. You admit above that White girl’s “occasionally” have booty, but true blonde hair (wavy or otherwise) is not occasionally found in people outside of a relatively small group of Scandinavians. I’m not sure that it can even be said that *most* Scandinavians are blonde.

    I’m not making an argument that there are not ethnic characteristics that are found within one ethnicity, I’m arguing that booty is not a specific ethnic characteristic, although it may be found in certain ethnicities more often than others (once you define what exactly it is, and isn’t)

    My point is this: I think that we often think we’re doing ourselves some favor by accepting “good stereotypes” and rejecting the bad ones. I would argue that, in the long run, it’s much more productive and effective to dismiss ALL stereotypes, as such.

    Once you get into the business of wearing stereotypes, you will find that logic will drive others to quickly reason, if the good stereotypes are true, why not the bad?? Also, to Jasmin’s point, once you begin to accept the stereotypes, they become specific expectations from all members of your group. In fact, people may even accept certain deficiencies in other ethnicities but not in you, if your group are KNOWN for certain qualities. People feel cheated, if you don’t fit into the mold.


  640. on Sun 24 Oct 2010 at 19:07:27 Menelik Charles


  641. on Sun 24 Oct 2010 at 19:09:03 Menelik Charles

    To both the mixer & the mixed up; listen to the bottom…er, sorry, I meant punchline of the video.


  642. @ Menelik

    LMAO I say that clip yesterday. That James in accounting bit, SMDH LMAO WOOOW…


  643. “I completely agree! A booty is on the lower tier of features. That’s the last thing that I would like a man to notice.

    Any man who makes that priority is suspect.”

    bwahaha

    I love it! “I’ll tell you what your allowed to find attractive on my body. and you better like it”

    typical.

    Proof that women have no grasp on what it’s like being a man. As if we have a choice about what body parts we’re attracted to. Maybe YOU can pick and choose. That’s nice for you ladies. congratulations. That’s an alien concept to me and anyone who calls himself a man.

    Talk about assuming your perspective is universal. Women love to do this to us.

    BTW Jasmin every beer commercial I saw watching football today featured hot/smart black women and not one booty shot! Not trying to refute your claim just saying.


  644. And when I say featured I mean the focal point. I know beer commercial chick may not be the attention many are looking for but those commercials do serve as a good barometer for what is generally considered attractive in America.


  645. on Sun 24 Oct 2010 at 20:50:47 Menelik Charles


  646. It’s interesting how, whenever supposed “positive” characteristics come up, people start pulling out the “black people don’t have a corner on it” card.

    Umm… sure.

    Yeah, I noticed that too. Goddess forbid Black women get a real compliment or else the universe with perform the Big Crunch and implode.


  647. on Sun 24 Oct 2010 at 21:22:37 Menelik Charles

    @ Witchsistah,

    yeah, it’s a roundabout way of both asset-stripping, and denying the uniqueness of the Black female form. Only on white or damned near white Black women will such characteristics be unambiguously appreciated.

    Some call it racism. They are utterly wrong: its racial envy, plain and simple. the ugly sisters would never have positively acknowledged the beauty of Cinderella.

    Why all know why.

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  648. “Goddess forbid Black women get a real compliment or else the universe with perform the Big Crunch and implode.”

    It’s not much of a compliment if it applies to every black women is it?

    Ok fill in the blank. Black women are_______.

    Then we’ll do everyone else too. These exercises are great for building monoliths hooray!

    It seems to me like this is just positive stereotyping. That’s supposed to be a good thing today? Hold on let me mark my calendar.


  649. on Sun 24 Oct 2010 at 22:11:54 Menelik Charles

    jas0nburns said:

    It seems to me like this is just positive stereotyping. That’s supposed to be a good thing today? Hold on let me mark my calendar.

    Menelik said:

    “positive stereotype” or not the point is when me and others state the simple fact that certain characteristics are common to Black women, some people chip in to assert an extraordinary nonsense: that what are typical Black female traits are NOT typical to Black women at all!

    How much reality does one have to distort in order to maintain that most (far eastern) Asian women do not actually possess stereotypically “slitty eyes”? I mean, it’s not like they “corner the market” with this particular facial feature, is it?

    Jesus wept!

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  650. ‘that what are typical Black female traits are NOT typical to Black women at all!”

    They may very well be typical. But not exclusive. Your arguments seem to rely on exclusivity. That’s my problem with your comments.


  651. on Sun 24 Oct 2010 at 22:53:55 Menelik Charles

    @ JasOn,

    you are quite simply one of the most dishonest individuals I have ever encountered on the net! Never in a month of Sundays would any sane person (and boy, have I questioned your sanity above!) claim exclusivity …and what’s more, no one on here has!

    The only person, aside from Thad, making utterly illogical assertions has been you. Consider this little gem below.

    jasOnburns said:

    saying that white women have flat asses and thin lips isn’t racist but it is ignorant.

    Menelik says:

    “ignorant”? You mean as in ‘unenlightened’? So the masses of white females don’t “have flat asses and thin lips”?

    You’re too much, man!


  652. “you are quite simply one of the most dishonest individuals I have ever encountered on the net!

    You must not get online much then. New to the interwebs are we? You must be if you think your ad homs mean s**t to me or anyone else.

    “Never in a month of Sundays would any sane person (and boy, have I questioned your sanity above!) claim exclusivity …and what’s more, no one on here has!””

    When you claim that white women who want booty are envious of black women isn’t that exactly what you are saying? Sure it’s possible, maybe widespread even. Black women also mostly have brown eyes. Does that mean that white women who envy brown eyes envy black women? No. because lots of people have brown eyes. just like lots of women have booty.


  653. @Jason

    Does that mean that white women who envy brown eyes envy black women? No. because lots of people have brown eyes. just like lots of women have booty.

    Just were and from whom does the term “booty” originate from? Or the expression “baby got back”?

    Perhaps you or King could enlighten us with some equivalents from other cultures coined to describe the same or comparable observation.


  654. “Just were and from whom does the term “booty” originate from? Or the expression “baby got back”?”

    So coining a phrase or new word for something makes it the property of the racial group to which you belong? That could get messy.


  655. @King

    My point is this: I think that we often think we’re doing ourselves some favor by accepting “good stereotypes” and rejecting the bad ones. I would argue that, in the long run, it’s much more productive and effective to dismiss ALL stereotypes, as such.

    King. I feel you maybe getting caught up in your own stereotypes! After all what are stereotypes but broad generalisations. Just because you might classify some as “good” or “bad” doesn’t make them valid or invalid.

    In the long run it may be much more productive to remember that!


  656. “So coining a phrase or new word for something makes it the property of the racial group to which you belong?”

    I meant the general you btw.


  657. Kwamla quote:

    Perhaps you or King could enlighten us with some equivalents from other cultures coined to describe the same or comparable observation.

    Please!!!. I am interested. Can you offer any descriptions for the same phenomenon in other cultures. If you can it would not necessarily disprove my point. But it would be nice to consider here!


  658. @Jason.

    I don’t think you’re fully grasping what I am saying or asking here!!!


  659. Please, enlighten me.


  660. It’s interesting how, whenever supposed “positive” characteristics come up, people start pulling out the “black people don’t have a corner on it” card.

    Umm… sure.

    Bull.

    Name ONE person posting above who hypocritically plays the “black people don’t have a corner on it” card when it comes to supposed NEGATIVE characteristics.

    You’re building a strawman.


  661. on Mon 25 Oct 2010 at 01:57:50 Menelik Charles

    Thad said:

    Name ONE person posting above who hypocritically plays the “black people don’t have a corner on it” card…

    1) King said:

    Black women do NOT corner the market on booty.

    2) JasOn said:

    saying that white women have flat asses and thin lips isn’t racist but it is ignorant.

    Menelik says:

    “ignorant”, yes but not in any way true!


  662. This discussion has no *meat* to it. :)


  663. MC, perhaps I’ve not made myself clear.

    The accusation is that when someone comes up with positive attributes that are supposedly only or mainly applicable to black women, then – and only then – do people say “Wait a minute, that’s not true. Other women…”

    My question is this: can you show us an example where any poster above DOES NOT ALSO DO THE SAME THING when supposedly superior “white” traits are brought up? Or who doesn’t likewise relativize when supposedly inferior “black” traits are mentioned?

    I mean, there’s enough real-life racist crap going on in the world. We don’t need to be making s*** up.


  664. Jason,

    OK, what’s your point? I’m not getting what beer commercials have to do with what I wrote (I’m not retyping; you can scroll) about dealbreakers and such.


  665. Oh… I think they do!!! Why else would white people have set out to study Saartjie Baartman. Otherwise known as the “Hottentot Venus”. This was not a comparative contrasting study with European white women of the time. There was no equivalent!!! Why they even made a “sanitised” film version of it!!

    Here’s why they don’t.

    The genetic set responsible for Baartman’s derrier, steatopygia is not common throughout the Khosian peoples, let alone black people in general. And the Khosian are about as genetically distinct from the peoples most African Americans descended from as the Germans are from Mongols.

    But here’s the kicker: Khosian ladies are not only known for having a higher incidence of steatopygia. They also display a higher-than-average incidence of another sexual trait: elongated labia. Some Khosian women, in fact, have vaginal lips that hang halfway down their thighs.

    Check it out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elongated_labia

    Baartman also had this.

    So if Baartman is supposed to be a good example of black women in general, why is it that we don’t hear about black women’s elongated vaginal lips? :D

    Btw, Baartman was a classic stereotype used by white supremacists to DEMEAN black women and here we have a supposed anti-racist lauding it to the skies as a realistic portrayal.

    Y’know, here’s my race meme, listening to some of the posts on this site:

    “No matter how racist or ignorant the stereotype of black people, some overly zealous black ethnonationalist, somewhere, is going to claim it’s God’s Own Truth.”


  666. I’ve known for some time now that Thad has contracted a bad case of SARS. Which is now probably in its terminal stages.

    Smug, Arrogant, Racist and Stupid….

    Is there any cure for this?


  667. on Mon 25 Oct 2010 at 10:34:24 Menelik Charles

    @ Kwamla,

    which is why I feel so utterly uncomfortable around this guy. Seriously, its like being transported back to colonial Africa every time this chap puts finger to keyboard!


  668. on Mon 25 Oct 2010 at 10:36:58 Menelik Charles

    @Kwamla,

    the only cure for such a condition is for self-loathing Negro women to keep their legs closed to these white boys!


  669. @ Menelik

    Sigh!! I fear it may already be to late for this…


  670. @Jasmin
    you said “The underlying assumption seems to be that a round booty on a White woman is a plus, but on a Black woman it’s the only thing that can get her in the door.”

    I was just saying I see lots of black women as eye candy on TV these days, and the camera isn’t pointed at their posterior. I still recognize that your point has truth to it though.


  671. on Mon 25 Oct 2010 at 11:39:59 Menelik Charles

    @Kwamla,

    yeah, it’s like someone making reference to something you’ve said and then ends up arguing with themselves cos nothing they say from that point bears any reference to the CONTEXT of your previous comments.


  672. @Menelik

    Sigh!! If only it wasn’t so. These discussions could be so much more interesting…

    Oh for that dreaded SARS!!!


  673. @ King

    “How about Middle Eastern women, Polynesian women, Latina women, Southeast Asian women? Do they come into this at all or is the whole world just Black and White?”

    Exactly. Although, I’m starting to see the other side of this. If I remember the big butt thing came into fashion with J-Lo. So the fact that it took a very light skinned person like her to bring that look into the mainstream does say something about a feature that is prominently tied to black women being praised only when not attached to a black women.


  674. “I’ve known for some time now that Thad has contracted a bad case of SARS. Which is now probably in its terminal stages.

    Smug, Arrogant, Racist and Stupid….

    Is there any cure for this?”

    You do realize that this is a perfect ad hominem. Attacking a poster’s person without so much as even attempting to address his actual argument.

    Of course, we all slip into ad hominem, from time to time. But I’ve rarely seen it done with such panache—without even a cursory pretense of addressing the point of the previous post.


  675. on Mon 25 Oct 2010 at 14:31:41 Menelik Charles

    King said:

    how about Middle Eastern women, Polynesian women, Latina women, Southeast Asian women? Do they come into this at all or is the whole world just Black and White?

    JasOn said:

    exactly.

    Menelik says:

    “exactly” what? The title of this post is: are Black women ugly or is it racism that makes them seem so? This clearly alludes to a Black and white issue with white racism being the underlying issue.

    JasOn said:

    remember the big butt thing came into fashion with J-Lo. So the fact that it took a very light-skinned person to bring that look into the mainstream does say something about a feature that is prominently tied to Black women being praised only when NOT attached to a Black women.

    Menelik says:

    and the same could be said for dark-brown skin (see Coco Chanel in the 1920s) and thick lips (see Angelina Jolie in the present). But the primary reason these characteristics are celebrated on white women and NOT Black women is because it is a means of managing both sexual desire and the racial and colour hierarchy.

    Consider that light-skinned women with African traits are permitted into the mainstream, and celebrated for an African characteristic (e.g. J-Lo, Beyonce), but darker-skinned women are Not (e.g. Bria Myles, Kelly Rowland).

    The results? More authentic norms of Black beauty are marginalised while lighter ladies of African descent are recruited into the mainstream so as to deflect from the psycho-social and sexual impact Black women are having on white males up and down the offices, and boardrooms, of the USA.

    Historically, white could unleash their seemingly ungovernable desire for Black women/girls upon these captured race of females without any racial or social to them.

    Not any more.

    Today, this desire has to be managed by way of locating the desired traits (lips, butt, skin colour) in other less socially threatening females, and thus achieve two objectives at once:

    1) obsess over and fetishize Black female traits without displacing the white female from her perch, and:

    2) maintain the white supremacist beauty hierarchy by reinforcing the following societal mantra:

    “if you’re white, you’re all right,
    if you’re Brown, stick around
    but if you’re Black, get back!”

    This places Black women at the bottom of the beauty hierarchy at the same time their facial and physical characteristics are rendering women of lighter hue alpha among females! Strange, I know but please, whenever you get the opportunity, revisit the fairy story, Cinderella.

    Tell me what you think of it, ok?

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  676. “The results? More authentic norms of Black beauty are marginalised while lighter ladies of African descent are recruited into the mainstream…”

    I agree.

    “…so as to deflect from the psycho-social and sexual impact Black women are having on white males up and down the offices, and boardrooms, of the USA. ”

    I disagree. This is conspiracy theory nonsense.


  677. on Mon 25 Oct 2010 at 15:01:53 Menelik Charles

    Disagree away, JasOn!


  678. Your right Menelik, I’m sure i’m just blind to the intricate plots and schemes of The Man.


  679. @Kwamla
    I’ve known for some time now that Thad has contracted a bad case of SARS. Which is now probably in its terminal stages.

    Smug, Arrogant, Racist and Stupid….

    Let me get this straight:

    You’re the guy wandering about, claiming that one of the greatest racist lies of the 19th century is true (to wit, that steatopygia is somehow a black female norm) and I’m the one who’s smug, arrogant, racist and stupid?

    Kwamla, one of these days, I expect you’ll log on here to tell us that black IQ scores are genetically, biologically lower than white IQ scores and that this is somehow a great thing that white racists have covered up because they are afraid to admit to African dominance of stupidity. :D


  680. on Mon 25 Oct 2010 at 15:38:14 Menelik Charles

    @jasOn,

    you maybe referring to the Cointel pro of racist rule, right? Ok, well, I’m alluding to the psychoanalysis of race in which the white ruling group seek to SUB-CONSCIOUSLY maintain their power (in whatever field of racial politics) by utilising available methods at their disposal to maintain the stability of the collective white ego.

    Bet ya weren’t thinking I was meaning that now, were you? Again, may I refer you to the tale of Cinderella, and ask you how the ‘ugly sisters’ were able to maintain their rule of this fabled beauty.

    I await your response.

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  681. And here’s a reminder from Gil Scott-Heron, direct out to Kwamla and MC:

    Brother (1970)

    We deal in too many externals, brother.
    Always afros, handshakes, and dashikis.

    Never can a man build a working structure for black capitalism.
    Always does a man read Mao or Fanon.

    I think I know you would-be black revolutionaries too well.
    Standing on a box on a corner, talking about blowing the white boy away.
    That’s not where it’s at, yet, brother.

    Calling this man an Uncle Tom,
    And telling this woman to get an afro,
    But you won’t speak to her if she looks like hell, will you, brother?

    Some of us been checking you act out kinda closely.
    And by now it’s looking kinda shaky, the way you been rushing people with your super-black bag.
    Jumping down on brothers with both feet because they are after their B.A.
    But you’re never around when your B.A. is in danger.
    I mean your black ASS.

    I think it was a little too easy to forget that you were a negro before Malcolm.
    You drove your white girl through the village every Friday night,
    While the grass roots stared in envy and drank wine.
    Do you remember?

    You need get your memory banks organized, brother.
    Show that man you call an Uncle Tom just where he is wrong.
    Show that woman that you are a sincere black man.

    All we need you to do is SHUT UP AND BE BLACK.
    Help that woman.
    Help that man.
    That’s what brothers are for, brother.


  682. on Mon 25 Oct 2010 at 15:44:27 Menelik Charles

    @ Thad,

    with respect 1) I have no idea what you’re talking about and 2) you are not my brother! Gil Scot Heron is, however (met him several times in London) and what we have in common as ‘brothers’ is frankly none of your business!


  683. woo-oa there! Mr charles from england…
    that’s a bit harsh


  684. Ok, well, I’m alluding to the psychoanalysis of race in which the white ruling group seek to SUB-CONSCIOUSLY maintain their power (in whatever field of racial politics) by utilising available methods at their disposal to maintain the stability of the collective white ego.

    That’s very nice rhetoric, MC, but it misses a salient fact: socio-political power is not simply psychology writ large. There is no cohesive character known as “the white ruling group” and there is no “sub-conscious” or “collective ego” for this group. Social facts and politics are not simply psychological terms applied to groups.

    So what you’re doing here is inventing fictional characters and giving them fictional attributes in order to make sense of real, observable facts. You then toss in terms like “COINTELPRO”, which refers to a by-god real and observable and provable FBI program to discredit black, native and new left militants during the 1960s as if somehow this became a vast, clockwork conspiracy behind all racist phenomena on the planet.

    Here’s why that doesn’t work, MC: COINTELPRO was a fuck-up. It was so poorly conceived and put together that a group fo dirty hippies were able to blow the lid off of it by breaking into an FBI district office in Media Pennslyvania.

    Yeah, that’s the sort of powerful conspiracy that’s managed to keep black people down for five centuries now. [roll eyes]


  685. with respect 1) I have no idea what you’re talking about and 2) you are not my brother! Gil Scot Heron is, however (met him several times in London) and what we have in common as ‘brothers’ is frankly none of your business!

    First of all, who says I’m your brother? I’m a distant cousin, at best. The words up there are GIL’S, not mine. Maybe you should take them to heart, hmmm? Especially the part about preaching to black women about afrocentric values.

    It’s been my long experience – and apparently the long experience of many black women, given what I hear and see written by them – that ultra-black ethnonationalists such as yourself really don’t have a very good track record when it comes to seeing women as equals or fellow citizens.

    The white record on this is as bad, to be sure. But then again, we all laugh at white boy pretensions when some idiot comes around and says (with an appropriately squeaky attempt at an Old Testament Prophet voice) “Woman! Date only within your race as you are mother of our people!” For some reason, you supposedly “afro-centric” nationalists haven’t gotten it through your skulls yet that you look just as ridiculous preaching about who “your” women should or shouldn’t date as any pasty-faced Casper from Stormfront.

    And that is the point that Gil is bringing up: your “heartfelt” advice to black women on how they should look and who they should sleep with is suspiciously oriented to your own power interests as a MALE.


  686. To answer the question posed by this post, obviously black women are not ugly, it is racism which makes them seem so to many people.

    On that point, as many folks here already know, my wife and I are studying sexual toursim in Rio de Janeiro. We’ve been watching with some interest the growing phenomenon of black U.S. male sexual tourism and we’ve done dozens of counts regarding black male tourists and their chosen partners.

    Around 75% of black U.S. American sex tourists in Rio pair up with women who are noticeably lighter than they are. Around the same percentage of white U.S. American sex tourists pair up with women who are noticeably darker.

    So what does this tell us?


  687. “and ask you how the ‘ugly sisters’ were able to maintain their rule of this fabled beauty.

    I await your response.”

    Well first off, the ugly sisters were ugly. So right there your equating white women to ugly stepsisters. F**k that noise. Right out of the gate I’ve got every reason to dismiss you as a black supremacist. AKA, a total hypocrite.

    So your saying Whites are obsessed with suppressing the beauty of black women so that we can continue to maintain our spot at the top of the beauty pile. Muahahahaa!

    Because we of course collectively see beauty as a zero sum game where if black women are allowed to shine our white women will be relegated to the margins. Inside we are all so ugly and insecure this thought fills us with jealous rage. So we endeavor to wield our power to hide the true beauty of black women from the world! Lest our throne be usurped and our true nature revealed to all.

    That’s a fun story. Nice and neat. villains & heroes clearly defined just like a Disney movie. And just as close to reality as a Disney movie too.


  688. “So what does this tell us?”

    That humans are biologically encoded to expand the gene pool by selecting mates that are different than themselves?


  689. Actually, I think it’s a bit more complex than that, Jason, and it has more to do with social expectations than any sort of biological coding. Remember Occam’s Razor: all toher things being equal, the simplest explanation is correct.

    So should we presume that this is some sort of obscure genetically defined urged, whose roots we can only speculate on and not observe? Or should we presume that it’s a quite logical reaction to very observable social pressures and taboos?


  690. on Mon 25 Oct 2010 at 16:48:00 Menelik Charles

    Thad said:

    Around 75% of black U.S. American sex tourists in Rio pair up with women who are noticeably lighter than they are. Around the same percentage of white U.S. American sex tourists pair up with women who are noticeably darker.

    So what does this tell us?

    Menelik replies:

    that tells me exactly what I have been saying all along! America has a very clearly defined racial and colour caste system in which dark-skinned Black females are at the bottom (no pun intended) of the racial beauty hierarchy. I have asserted that this status is false since it is meant to maintain the supremacy of the white female who forms the cornerstone of white supremacy.

    I have also maintained that the real feminine ideal in the white sub-conscious mind is the dark-skinned, negroid-featured, Black female. To publically or consciously acknowledge this FACT would seriously disrupt the racial caste system as it exists so (and this is an entirely sub-conscious manoeuvre on the part of the white collective) white men locate Black physical characteristics in white or light-skinned Black women and thus displace their attraction away from their Black ideal onto substitute females instead.

    Brazilian society allows white American men to reveal the extent to which their urge to engage with ambiguousness Black women is suppressed in mainstream American society just as it allows ‘color-struck’ (no more so than white men but for entirely different reasons) Black American men to indulge in their desire for ladies of the ‘video vixen’ variety. Either way, the point is Black men’s issues regarding colour are well-known and openly discussed. Not so white men’s which are hidden but inadvertently exposed in their obsession with white and light women possessing much disparaged African facial and anatomical characteristics.

    All the relevant evidence is revealed in my book.

    Thank you.

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  691. on Mon 25 Oct 2010 at 16:53:25 Menelik Charles

    Thad said:

    First of all, who says I’m your brother? I’m a distant cousin, at best. The words up there are GIL’S, not mine. Maybe you should take them to heart, hmmm? Especially the part about preaching to black women about afrocentric values.

    Menelik replied:

    you’re a regular little trouble maker, aren’t you? No where have I preached Afrocentric values to anyone, let alone to Black women on here! If you can locate a word, sentence or paragraph in which I have done so, then do, please, provide it as evidence.

    I’ll wait!


  692. @MC
    that tells me exactly what I have been saying all along! America has a very clearly defined racial and colour caste system in which dark-skinned Black females are at the bottom (no pun intended) of the racial beauty hierarchy.

    If that’s the case, why are the white boys dating darker down here?

    I have also maintained that the real feminine ideal in the white sub-conscious mind is the dark-skinned, negroid-featured, Black female.

    Ah. So let me get this straight: you think sex tourists are being motivated by their UNCONSCIOUS minds, do you? Wrong, MC: they are very conscious of what they want and will tell you exactly what that is and why.

    But even so, your position seems odd because, if it were true, that means black men are subconsciously idealizng white beauty. What you’d need to explain in that case is how two different ideals came about. Hint: if you’d like to take a shot at this, Fanon can give you a hand.

    Brazilian society allows white American men to reveal the extent to which their urge to engage with ambiguousness Black women is suppressed in mainstream American society just as it allows ‘color-struck’ (no more so than white men but for entirely different reasons) Black American men to indulge in their desire for ladies of the ‘video vixen’ variety.

    Let’s apply Occam’s Razor to this situation and ignore suppositions about things we cannot see or even objectively prove exist, such as God, “genetic urges” and the subconscious.

    You said one thing which any observor of American society pretty much has to agree with: “color struck”. Yanks, in general, are color struck and interracial sex up there is still considered to be something of a taboo.

    So when Yanks come to a place which, in the American mind is (incorrectly) associated with sexual liscence and they get a little drunk and go brothel hopping, it’s not at all odd that one finds that they indulge in EXACTLY that sort of sex which is still looked down upon back home: interracial sex.

    Black men do this. White men do this.

    It’s a simple theory, but it sticks to observable facts. unlike the theories bandied about above.

    All the relevant evidence is revealed in my book.

    And what’s the title of this vanity press masterpiece, pray tell?


  693. on Mon 25 Oct 2010 at 17:10:28 Menelik Charles

    Thad said:

    so let me get this straight: you think sex tourists are being motivated by their UNCONSCIOUS minds, do you? Wrong, MC: they are very conscious of what they want and will tell you exactly what that is and why.

    Menelik replies:

    and your point is? my point was that desiring Black women is not openly accepted in US society for the reasons already stated.

    Thad said:

    even so, your position seems odd because, if it were true, that means black men are subconsciously idealizng white beauty.

    Menelik replied:

    then it is exactly true because this is precisely what Black men are doing (and white men are doing the same as regards Black beauty)!

    Thad asked:

    and what’s the title of this vanity press masterpiece, pray tell?

    Menelik replies:

    ‘The Myth of white Racism & The Theory of Racial Envy’. And for the record, two major African-American publishers have been bidding for publishing rights for the last eight years!

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  694. “Or should we presume that it’s a quite logical reaction to very observable social pressures and taboos?”

    Yeah, that was my other guess. That you go elsewhere for what you can’t get at home. But It could be a combination of forces.


  695. Sounds like an interesting book Menelik no doubt Thaddeus will be eager to snap up a copy so he can readily tear it down and de-bunk it for its short-sighted male encrusted and Afro-uncentric views.

    By the way Professor Thad do you have any published books on your numerous and untold critical views?

    And what’s the title of these vanity press masterpieces, pray tell?


  696. All of this talk about how the adulation of “light skinned black women” (i.e. mixed race women) is a reflection of white supremacy is curious. I see it more as an indication of the decline of racist thinking. I read somewhere that when Flashdance came out, Jennifer Beals immediately became a national sex symbol, but when knowledge that she is of partial African ancestry began to spread more widely after the film’s release, her fanfare plummeted. It seems like it was only beginning in the 1990s that mixed women began to rise to the top of the American beauty pyramid. Perhaps the first was Mariah Carey, who reached the pinnacle of the national limelight in the mid-90s. This state of affairs does not seem unusual if one considers the situation in other countries. Omar Vega, a Chilean who comments on many of these American social issues blogs, says that Afro-European mixed women are at the top of the Latin American beauty scale as well.


  697. Thad

    “…And that is the point that Gil is bringing up: your “heartfelt” advice to black women on how they should look and who they should sleep with is suspiciously oriented to your own power interests as a MALE…”

    Well. I was going to ask for your interpretation of this song Thad since you seemed to be at pains to point it out. An old time favourite artist of yours is he then?

    Funny how your rigorous offering here seems to stress a critique of the male chauvinist Afro-centric brother who is all to ready to admonish Black women to “check themselves” while ignoring his own sexism.

    But was that all or even the main part of what Gil Scot Heron was saying?

    All we need you to do is SHUT UP AND BE BLACK.
    Help that woman.
    Help that man.
    That’s what brothers are for, brother.

    A more accurate summary of what I interpretate he was trying to say is summed up in that last quote. Hence the title of the song ” Brother”

    But then you wouldn’t really know or “get this” would you Thad since your too busy distorting messages (as you do with numerous posts here, my own included) to suit your own agnostic and atheistic SARS induced views!!!

    Hence also Menelik’s hostile, though justifiable, response to you. Will you ever learn?


  698. on Mon 25 Oct 2010 at 18:34:15 Menelik Charles

    @Kwamla,

    brother man, trying to debate a man who succeeds in playing devil’s advocate by any means necessary, and with no desire to engage the actual point, is as futile as cutting your cock off! I love debate, absolutely, but this overlord stuff this guy lays on just does my head in!


  699. jas0nburns says,
    -Well first off, the ugly sisters were ugly. So right there your equating white women to ugly stepsisters. F**k that noise. Right out of the gate I’ve got every reason to dismiss you as a black supremacist. AKA, a total hypocrite.
    -So your saying Whites are obsessed with suppressing the beauty of black women so that we can continue to maintain our spot at the top of the beauty pile. Muahahahaa!
    -Because we of course collectively see beauty as a zero sum game where if black women are allowed to shine our white women will be relegated to the margins. Inside we are all so ugly and insecure this thought fills us with jealous rage. So we endeavor to wield our power to hide the true beauty of black women from the world! Lest our throne be usurped and our true nature revealed to all.
    -That’s a fun story. Nice and neat. villains & heroes clearly defined just like a Disney movie. And just as close to reality as a Disney movie too.

    laromana says,
    jas0nburns, you may consider Menelik’s analysis of the dynamics behind ANTI-BW RACISM in American society “racist” or a “fairy tale” but I assure you from my LONG TERM, FIRST HAND exposure to this mindset for my LIFETIME, that IT’S REAL.

    BW have HISTORICALLY been treated like UGLY, INVISIBLE, SECOND CLASS, NONHUMAN, NONWOMEN in America since they were brought here as slaves.

    ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE is/has ALWAYS been PROMOTED/CONDONED in American culture/media to uphold White beauty supremacy and I can tell you, from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, that it has had a very UNFAIR/NEGATIVE effect on my/the relationship lives of MANY BW (thus the ABNORMALLY HIGH SINGLENESS RATE AMONG us).

    The RACIST/ANTI-BW mindset that TRASHES the HUMANITY/DIGNITY/FEMININITY of BW is NO “fairytale” and if your life was affected by it you would KNOW this is TRUE.


  700. I’m not generally attracted to black women. It’s definitely not the skin color though. I’ve known and seen black women as dark and darker than I that were extremely attractive. I love Tatyana Ali. She is very beautiful and she is even darker than me. The thing is, black women as attractive as Tatyana are probably 1 in a million, i.e very rare.

    In all my years I can probably count the number of ‘pure’ black women I’ve found attractive on one hand. Sure, there are alot of attractive black women who are light skinned and mixed, but I’m not counting them.

    This isn’t ‘hateful’ in anyway. I’m just saying how I feel yet I’ve been branded racist for this on numerous occasions.


  701. on Mon 25 Oct 2010 at 20:14:52 Menelik Charles

    @Alex,

    you can be attracted to whom you choose; few people care as long as you don’t diss black women’s appearance!


  702. on Mon 25 Oct 2010 at 20:53:15 Menelik Charles


  703. @ Alex

    I will add to what Menelik said. You certainly can be attracted to whom you choose, BUT you also need to understand your preference to be an internal mechanism, and not reflective of any outward universal, truth.

    Let me show you what I mean.

    “The thing is, black women as attractive as Tatyana are probably 1 in a million, i.e very rare.”M

    That might be a somewhat biased assumption, on your part, if you simply assume that the ratio for Black women is rather low, compared to that of all other women. (I’m not saying that you are doing this)

    But if you understand this to be your own preferences at work, you might change your statement just slightly:

    “Personally, I only seem to to be attracted to maybe 1 in a million Black women.”

    That may sound like nitpicking your words, but it’s really more about the attitude behind the words. Are you admitting (like a colorblind man) that you simply can’t perceive the beauty that many others do—based on your own personal limitations? Or are you assuming that your inability to appreciate most Black beauty means that Black women do not possess it?

    There is a big difference, and the answer will tell you if you are prejudice of not.


  704. The thing is, black women as attractive as Tatyana are probably 1 in a million, i.e very rare.

    Nope, black women who are as attractive as Tatyana Ali are not 1 in a million…Maybe for you they are but Im willing to bet, millions of men believe otherwise.


  705. on Mon 25 Oct 2010 at 21:29:29 Menelik Charles

    @ sister Y,

    just click onto Alex’s name and check out his blog. I think its content tells you all you need to know about where he is coming from!


  706. King beat me to it. :-D

    I get ill of people making comments like that as if their preferences are universal. Just because you can not gauge black beauty doesn’t mean its non-existent.


  707. White women go after a beauty standard that is not real. How many women have naturally bleach blonde hair typically seen in white babies, blue eyes, tan skin a nearly emaciated body huge boobs and “bee stung” lips? NOBODY possess these traits except through extreme exercise, hair dye, and plastic surgery. Yet this is the american beauty ideal for white women. The closer you can approximate it the prettier you are thought to be.

    Black women also have an ideal that is being shoved down our throats. You need to look as close to women like Halle Berry or Beyonce as closely as humanly possible. I know I’m distrubed by nearly every “black” woman romantic lead being a mixed race woman with light skin and brown cork screw curls. This is the media telling black women you’re not pretty unless you look mixed. How come Gaby Union and Kelly Rowland aren’t being picked as often for romantic leads? Sometimes black women are skipped altogether in favor of a hispanic woman. No wonder men don’t see black beauty.

    When I see a “full black” looking woman in the media she is almost always overweight, loud, unattractive and/or middle aged or elderly. These things may seem trivial to some people, but media representations do color perceptions. In the case of black women, it almost is like a conspiracy. Someone wants black women to be seen as undesirable.

    I thank God that when I was a little girl back in the day my mother made sure that the messages I received about being a beautiful black female were positive. I grew up during the time of black consciousness. I had black dolls, I had Ebony Jr., I had Essence magazine and a lovely dark-skinned mom who was beautiful and recognized as such by white men and black.

    I find it unbelievable that colorism still exists and that stereotypes about black women still flourish in 2010. I try to ensure that my nieces get positive messages to counter what one of you called the “white women beauty proproganda.” Only it’s not just that. It’s also the mixed race bauty propoganda. Not that those women aren’t beautiful, but they are being promoted at the expense of black women.


  708. @Menelik

    Oh believe me, Im a step ahead of you! :-D I saw it before I wrote my initial comment but decided I wasnt going to “go there” if you know what I mean.

    A mixed-raced, self-proclaimed anti-racist that believes only 1 in a million black women are actually beautiful….mmm.


  709. on Mon 25 Oct 2010 at 21:40:19 Menelik Charles

    Poetess said:

    It’s also the mixed race beauty propoganda. Not that those women aren’t beautiful, but they are being promoted at the expense of black women.

    Menelik says:

    I hope you scroll upwards and read my comments regarding this phenomenon. It may explain quite a bit.


  710. @Poetess

    Absolutely correct. Its no coincidence. The light-skinned or racially ambiguous “black”(biracial) woman is portrayed as attractive and the pinnacle of black beauty while the dark-skinned black women get the mammy and/or ghetto b*tch treatment.

    I think light-skin/biracial women have every right to be featured as romantic interests in the media but often time women who posses this look are overrepresented. They arent included along with dark-skinned, round-featured black women but to the exclusion of more Afro-typic women.


  711. on Mon 25 Oct 2010 at 21:43:23 Menelik Charles

    @Thad,

    my life-long working and personal relationship with Black publishers and book-stores in the US is of no concern of yours.


  712. By the way Professor Thad do you have any published books on your numerous and untold critical views?

    And what’s the title of these vanity press masterpieces, pray tell?

    Books, not yet. CHAPTERS in books, I have three and two more coming out this year. Peer-reviewed articles, a dozen or so. There are links to some of this stuff on my blog, as well as part of a new chapter for a book which will be coming out in 2011.

    Publishers don’t get involved in bidding wars over anti-racist think pieces, Kwamla, no matter what fantasies to the contrary MC has. Unless, of course, MC is som real-life black celeb who – for whatever reason – wastes his days writing commentary on race boards. :D

    It is HARD to get a book published, Kwamla. That’s why I find MC’s claims that he’s had publishers champing at the bit and bidding for his for eight years now to be so laughable.

    But hey! Stranger stuff has happened! I hope MC does get his book published and I hope it doesn’t take another 8 years to do so. That’s time enough for two PhDs, Kwamla, so you may understand why I have high hopes for this opus’ intellectual quality.


  713. FG sez…
    All of this talk about how the adulation of “light skinned black women” (i.e. mixed race women) is a reflection of white supremacy is curious. I see it more as an indication of the decline of racist thinking.

    Perhaps. But read this and then tell me what you think…

    http://omangueblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/whitening-theory-in-brazil.html

    I think you only see things that way because you’re looking at racism from a historically American position.


  714. on Mon 25 Oct 2010 at 21:57:37 Menelik Charles

    Sister Y,

    one particular means some mix-race ‘Black’ people use to avoid a crisis of identity and/or Otherness is to project their disowned, unaccepted, ‘Black’ parts onto Blacks of the opposite sex. Often they disguise this tactic (even from themselves) in an alleged “preference” when the only true “preference” they have is to be white!

    Of course, Alex wouldn’t admit as much to himself as this would set off a much avoided crisis of identity so instead he projects the ‘unattractive Black’ part of himself onto millions of Black female scapegoats.

    One might inquire as to whether or not he perceives Black males to be as handsome as white males…or is such a question to ‘gay’?

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  715. @Kwamla
    An old time favourite artist of yours is he then?

    Gil? Since about 1979, yeah. I first heard his stuff when I was 12.

    Funny how your rigorous offering here seems to stress a critique of the male chauvinist Afro-centric brother who is all to ready to admonish Black women to “check themselves” while ignoring his own sexism.

    And why I would be seeing things that way, given this post’s high incidence of thoughtful, feminist-supportive black male commentators is anyone’s guess, right? :D

    A more accurate summary of what I interpretate he was trying to say is summed up in that last quote. Hence the title of the song ” Brother”

    No doubt. But that still doesn’t get men like MC off the hook. And Gil’s MAIN point is that it’s quite easy for “brothers” like you and MC to spend your days spouting crap on bulletin boards, but what do you REALLY do in real life that supports your rhetoric? It’s very convenient that you come on here, anonymously, with your super-radical ethnonationalist raps, but who the hell are you in real life, Kwamla?

    I post under my real name. My CV and most of my serious writing is up on the internet. You can go check it out. Hell, you can even CONTRIBUTE to it by critiquing it if you like, because that’s what dialogue is all about.

    But who the hell are you and MC, exactly, other than anonymous voices on the internet?


  716. laromana,

    “BW have HISTORICALLY been treated like UGLY, INVISIBLE, SECOND CLASS, NONHUMAN, NONWOMEN in America since they were brought here as slaves.”

    Hold on now, what did I say that led you to believe I didn’t agree with you?

    The fairytale in question here is Menelik’s statement that whites are like ugly stepsisters who hold black women back out of envy like in Cinderella. Your dude brought up fairytales not me.

    The stepsisters were envious of Cinderella’s beauty and so treated her like sh**. Black women are beautiful and have no doubt been treated like sh** by white people.

    But does that prove that white women are envious of BW? And this envy is the motivation for said shi**y treatment? Hardly. I don’t think envy is behind white supremacy and saying so does not amount to a denial of it’s existence.


  717. @MC
    my life-long working and personal relationship with Black publishers and book-stores in the US is of no concern of yours.

    You’re trying to give yourself cred for intellectual work which no one has ever seen, let alone read. If you publish, you’re damned skippy it becomes a concern of mine and anyone else who chooses to read your work.

    But let’s be real MC: you haven’t published jack. I do a google on your handle and it’s all over the ‘net on race-related blogs such as this. I’m willing to bet my bottom dollar that THAT is your publishing history. And if you are really so naive as to think that publishers are salivating EIGHT FRICKIN’ YEARS for a book like that talks about racial envy, then you’re more to be pitied than anything else.

    But from one struggling author to another, good on ya. I suggest that if it’s taken 8 years to get the thing along to where it is right now, you need to stop bothering with lecturing black women on the internet and actually WRITE some, Chuck.


  718. Since this post is the very first result on Google when you search for “black women ugly”, it’s clear why there are going to be a lot of bigoted trolls commenting.

    Y,

    “A mixed-raced, self-proclaimed anti-racist that believes only 1 in a million black women are actually beautiful….mmm.”

    He is no anti-racist, look a little more at his blog.

    And notice the “White Goddess” blog on his blogroll. That should give you an inkling of his mindset.

    Frankly, some of these self-proclaimed mixed people that promote white and mixed women as better or more attractive than “pure” black women make me very wary, if not downright ill sometimes. It seriously gives me (and the hubby) pause about having children. I could do the best I can to help my child to love all of their sides, but knowing they might end up like this is quite heartbreaking.


  719. on Mon 25 Oct 2010 at 22:18:40 Menelik Charles

    Thad,

    boy, you really are projecting aren’t you? First you accuse me of lying regarding the status of my book; then you accuse me of being anonymous! I am not on here to convince or persuade you of anything other than what you’re about to read below.

    My name IS my name, for what it is worth, and if I knew how to put a picture up on here I would. I give my location in the UK, and I am more than willing to discuss with like-minded folk off-line matters of mutual interest. I have no desire to hide my identity nor the nature of my work.

    Moreover, I have let it be known on here that I have spent the whole of my working life up until six years ago working and managing my uncle’s book-store in London (where I have met Gil Scot Heron on several occasions!), and also that myself and my partner are involved in the field of psychology and psychoanalysis.

    I am anything but anonymous!

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  720. @ Natasha W
    Yeah I noticed the white goddess link, that told me practically all I need to know.

    When I say “anti-racist” Im pulling from this post of his

    http://artisticexpression.wordpress.com/2010/05/22/an-anti-racists-take-on-white-nationalism/

    In it he reveals that he has a African-American father and Hispanic mother as he tries to reach out to white nationalists.

    Yeah these types make my skin crawl. He is obviously suffering from some type of inferiority complex. He thinks black women are, as a group, objectively unattractive and he tries to make amends with people(white nationalists) that despise his very being. LOL, what issues!

    I have thought about the kids issue too. If I marry a non-black I will have to be very careful that my child doesnt get complex and think they are better(or to lesser extent worse) because they are mixed. However, I dont think this would be enough for me to second guess having kids. Id just have to stomp out any superiority/inferiority complexes.


  721. @MC
    boy, you really are projecting aren’t you? First you accuse me of lying regarding the status of my book…

    I don’t accuse you of lying, MC. I accuse you have having unrealistic fantasies about the publishing world and I also accuse you of trying to garnish credit for intellectual work that you haven’t done yet. I have three books currently awaiting publishing, Mc. I know what the publishing world is like, having worked in it as a publisher and now as an author.

    So when you say you have two presses dalivating over a book you have yet to write and that, furthermore, they’ve been waiting on it for eight years… Well then, Chuck, all I can say is that unless your RL name is “Denzel Washington” or “Tiger Woods”, you are fooling yourself.

    My name IS my name, for what it is worth, and if I knew how to put a picture up on here I would. I give my location in the UK, and I am more than willing to discuss with like-minded folk off-line matters of mutual interest. I have no desire to hide my identity nor the nature of my work.

    OK, MC, so why don’t you give us some links to your published stuff? Something, anywhere? Something that is published on real paper, I mean, that you yourself haven’t paid for. Because the only “Menelik Charles” that comes up on my search engines is an overly prolific commentator on black relationship blogs.

    …and also that myself and my partner are involved in the field of psychology and psychoanalysis.

    So it would not be too much to presume, then, that you have some publications in peer-reviewed journals then, correct?

    Links, please.


  722. @Y
    Look at this, frex…
    I’ve visited Stormfront off and on these last few years and I think I’ve come away understanding your movement a bit better. Your rigid stance against multiculturalism, interracial relationships and inter breeding, which you believe will at one point rid the world of your race, is definitely at the core of your beliefs, contrary to the popular notion that Stormfront is just another ‘chimpout.com’.

    Actually, that is WHY I consider them to be another chimpout.com. :D


  723. Y,

    “However, I dont think this would be enough for me to second guess having kids. Id just have to stomp out any superiority/inferiority complexes.”

    I hope it’s that simple. But if my child ends up making comments like alexg’s; sympathizing with Stormfronters and favoriting websites that assault black women, I don’t know what I would do. It wouldn’t be pleasant.

    I’ve also noted many of these people are of the black father/non-black mother persuasion (interpret that as you will), so maybe I don’t have to worry so much since mine won’t be.


  724. Actually, AlexG’s views aren’t that far from, say, MC’s or Kwamla’s, at least as I hear them expressed here. All three posters presume that race needs must be something one has “pride” in and that “heritage” trumps individualism any day of the week.


  725. on Mon 25 Oct 2010 at 23:12:18 Menelik Charles

    Thad,

    you really are an unpleasant individual aren’t you? Earlier you accuse me of preaching Afrocentric dogma to women on here, and I asked you to provide a word, sentence or paragraph in which I have done so: nothing coming! Now you are insinuating that I have claimed to have published works. I have never, ever, suggested such a thing!

    I have only EVER claimed to have two books on the back-burner, one of which I have completed. I have also claimed that two African-American publishers have both shown a very keen interest in my works which they HAVE both expressed a determined interest in publishing. Both were competing with the other for the rights.

    I have to prove this to you…an anonymous (to me) white man on the internet?

    Why exactly?

    I also have to prove my involvement in psychology and psychoanalysis?

    Why exactly?

    I have very personal feelings about people like you which I keep in check because of the nature of this blog and of the types of people who visit it.

    You are free to lie, harass, and provoke people on here because as a white man that’s the sort of thing you do! Educated Negroes such as myself are far more cautious insofar as when we fight, we do so alone because very few on here (least of all Abagond) would co-sign my opinions of people like you.

    Well, you want me to justify myself to you? To offer you stuff I claim not even to have done? The days of people like you determining my worth are over! Keep pressing! Eventually I’ll crack…and say what?

    Nothing!

    You, by contrast, will continue to make enemies wherever you go because that’s what you do best! Unfortunately, people on here don’t appear to get that uncomfortable feeling conscious Black folks get when an enemy is among us masquerading as a tell-it-like-it-is ‘friend’. Unfortunately for us Blacks, thinking freely has come at a price…the price being that we don’t think freely at all.

    Here I freely say to you: go to hell! And since you and I cannot settle our differences face-to-face like men of old and before the internet became a buffer separating bullies from those simply expressing an opinion you have chosen to take issue with in your usual incendiary, insensitive, and cowardly way, I would ask that you kindly avoid commenting on anything I have to say.

    I mean, what would be the point? You won’t agree anyway with anything I have to say, and vice versa. Why spend your life in conflict, Thad? I do not seek conflict with people like you in my day-to-day life…I avoid people like you.

    Take a hint, man!

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  726. Natasha and Y,

    That’s my fear too. I don’t want to raise some Tragic Mulatto with a Pinky/Imitation of Life complex. That would not go down well in my house.


  727. you really are an unpleasant individual aren’t you?

    Says the man who never tires of shaking his finger at biracial couples…. [roll eyes]

    I have only EVER claimed to have two books on the back-burner, one of which I have completed.

    Oh HO! So now it’s TWO books and one is actually completed.

    Riddle me this, MC: if two publishing houses have been beating on your door for eight years in an attempt to get the rights to your manifesto on jealousy, why hasn’t your completed book been published yet? You’re an in-demand author, right…?

    Here I freely say to you: go to hell! And since you and I cannot settle our differences face-to-face like men of old and before the internet became a buffer separating bullies from those simply expressing an opinion you have chosen to take issue with in your usual incendiary, insensitive, and cowardly way, I would ask that you kindly avoid commenting on anything I have to say.

    WoooooooHOOOOOO! Internet Tough Guy Syndrome claims yet another victim! :D

    So let me get this straight, MC: you think the appropriate response to someone calling you out on your BS is not to show that this person is wrong, but to punch them, is that it?

    I mean, you could just show me up to be a know-nothing blow-hard (which, I assure you, would be far more damaging than a punch in the face): just link us to a publication of yours. :D


  728. on Mon 25 Oct 2010 at 23:31:15 Menelik Charles

    Thad said:

    Actually, AlexG’s views aren’t that far from, say, MC’s or Kwamla’s, at least as I hear them expressed here. All three posters presume that race needs must be something one has “pride” in and that “heritage” trumps individualism any day of the week.

    Menelik says:

    and boy, this is why I bite my tongue! Your a free man, wh*te boy: free to insult the legacy and experiences of people of colour just because you have a PHD! This is nothing but white supremacy masquerading as anti-racism!

    Alex G is a white supremacist bereft of any pride other than proclaiming his disdain for Black women which in reality is projected self-hatred. I express appreciation of the Black female form, and this represents racial pride?

    I white man expressing the same view is also expressing Black pride? You speak hogwash!

    You also display a callous disregard for the need of people of colour to engender pride in themselves in the face of all that which has sought (successfully in most cases) to rob them of such. Malcolm X advocated it; as did Martin Luther King because – as the case of Alex G horribly demonstrates, without it we are just a perverted appendage of white supremacy!

    Like I said above, once again, you have chosen to take issue with people in your usual incendiary, insensitive, and cowardly way!

    Jesus, man, is it your penis or something?

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  729. I love it when people who are too scared to put their RL identity on their internet posts call me “coward”, by the way. :D

    I mean, it really cuts to the quick to be called a coward by someone who’s hiding behind a virtual bush when they claim – on practically every internet forum available – that black women who date white men are screwed in the head.

    That really shows some guts and integrity, y’know MC? Your momma would be proud.


  730. on Mon 25 Oct 2010 at 23:40:56 Menelik Charles

    Thad,

    My father was no bully nor coward much less a coward. I had no need to fight him in the guise of others. And yours?


  731. MC
    Your a free man, wh*te boy: free to insult the legacy and experiences of people of colour just because you have a PHD!

    Let’s get one thing straight, Chuck: I’m not saying jack about “the legacy and experience of people of color”: I’m talking about you, one “Menelik Charles”, blog commentator extraordinaire. And if you’ve got some experience or credibility to back up your pop-psychology-tinged ramblings , by all means, bring it up! I’d love to see it.

    So far, all I see is a guy with a big mouth who claims that he’s “involved” with psychology. A claim, note, that every patient in a mental hospital the world over could reasonably make.

    And I’m not criticizing you because I have a PhD, Chuck: I’m criticizing you because you make a lot of bulls*** claims with sweet f***-all to back them up.

    As for the similarities between you and Alex, they are quite clear. Let me state them again: the BOTH of you bleive in racially-based pride. The BOTH of you believe that race “heritage” should necessarily trump individual choice. This is quite clearly what I’m hearing you say, MC, when you make the absurd claim that black women who date white men somehow hate themselves. If I’m getting that interpretation wrong, then by all means, feel free to clue me in on what you are really saying.

    You also display a callous disregard for the need of people of colour to engender pride in themselves in the face of all that which has sought (successfully in most cases) to rob them of such.

    Get it straight: I feel a callous disregard for any poor soul, whatever his or her skin color, who tries to substitute “racial pride” for his own sense of self worth. It’s the idea of race pride in general that I find ridiculous. Though I can see why, given racism, many black people would feel that the proper antidote to white pride is black pride, I think history has shown us pretty conclusively that the proper answer to fascism isn’t more fascism.

    As for MLK advocating black pride, he did that within an overall matrix of HUMANISM. Which really isn’t your or Alex’s thing, is it?

    Jesus, man, is it your penis or something?

    Interestd in my penis now, are you, MC? I mean, first you threaten to beat me up, now you want to see my d1ck?

    Keep it up, Chuck, and people will say that we’re in love! :D


  732. MC

    If you want to convince the world that your interlocutors are suffering from an oedipus complex, I suggest that you lay off with the macho chest-thumping and dick commentary.

    Just a word to the wise. :D


  733. How about telling us about your momma, MC? :D


  734. on Tue 26 Oct 2010 at 00:01:01 Menelik Charles

    Thad,

    Its all very well me defending myself against someone like you because you attack as a rule. But when you then go on to ‘defend’ yourself against someone defending themselves against you, then it really does get weird, doesn’t it?

    You’re an educated man, Thad…let it go, why don’t you? it’s never going to be enough, is it, hmmm? The attempts at shaming etc. Let it go. I box, baby, I box…but I can’t here knock six colours of sh*te out of you so…let it go. Be the bigger man; set the ladies here an example: play the white man. Wrestling with Negroes is so uncouth, man!


  735. on Tue 26 Oct 2010 at 00:02:53 Menelik Charles


  736. Y’know, the ironic thing about all this is that I’m actually missing a book launching party right now in Caxambu for a book I contributed a chapter to. Sigh…


  737. Its all very well me defending myself against someone like you because you attack as a rule.

    Really? I attack?

    Let me break it to you gently, MC: I’m not the man who has the involved pseudo-psychological thesis which “proves” that all the people who don’t share my dating tastes are actually mentally ill.

    I box, baby, I box…but I can’t here knock six colours of sh*te out of you so…let it go.

    Oh, golly gosh. And that’s such a CONVINCING argument you have there, MC: “Don’t you dare call me out on my BS because I can beat you up!”

    Life isn’t a gradeschool playground, MC. You don’t prove your ideas’ validity by physically threatening people who challenge them and you look exceptionally stupid trying to do so over the internet.

    “Involved with psychology”, indeed. Poor impulse control, perhaps…? I hear they make you do community service for that sort of thing over in Merry Olde Englande. :D


  738. I thought Thad is a lady? Not that it really matters.


  739. You realize that in the clip, MLK says you need to have self worth? He’s hardly making a claim for race pride.


  740. Nope. I have an “outtie” Mei Ly. :D


  741. Though I thank you for the compliment, given the current operative definition of masculinity on this thread…


  742. King, I am aware of that. I don’t think of it as a universal ‘truth’ but I am free to have my own personal taste am I not? I can’t prove that only 1 in a million black women are attractive. First and foremost because it is completely subjective. And 2nd that figure was more satire than an actual estimate. However it is true, in my view, that the black women that I find attractive are few and far between. It doesn’t have to be the same for you since it is, as I said, completely subjective. There is no underlying racism behind it. I have never found black women attractive, generally. I am a mixed race individual who is half black american and hispanic and I grew up in a predominantly hispanic neighborhood. In other words, I’ve been around girls and women with lighter skin and ‘nicer’ features my entire life. Naturally that is what I gravitate to.

    Y. You are correct. I’m sure there are millions of black men and non-black men who disagree with my statements. What of it? The only thing that proves is subjectivity. It doesn’t ‘prove’ me wrong because there’s nothing to prove wrong. I simply stated my opinion.

    Menelik? What’s wrong with my blog’s content? Is it all the video game talk? Atheism? What? Is it somehow supposed to devalue my opinion?

    Y. If my post somehow made it seem as though what I said was ‘fact’ then I’m sorry. That wasn’t my intention.

    Menelik: Answer me this. What is wrong with wanting to be of another race? How is it any different than wishing you had fuller lips, or tanned skin. How is it any different than any of that? I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I’d prefer to be white. It sure would make dating white girls easier lol. That doesn’t mean that I am not content with myself as I am, because I am. I have no ‘crisis’ going on. You’re just assuming things.

    Actually Menelik, I’ve seen some pretty handsome black males. That doesn’t mean I’m gay because I certainly am not sexually attracted to any male. Hell, I think Denzel Washington is a good looking guy. I abandoned any type of ‘nigga’ mentality long ago. I’m not your Riley Freeman type of black person who thinks everything is gay or who embraces thug culture or ebonics and all that crap. You however, are assuming that I am. Taking that into consideration, I find it hard to believe that you’re an authority on psychology.

    Natasha W.

    I frequently post on Stormfront debating AGAINST the White Nationalists. Even they consider me an anti-racist and if they consider me anti-racist, then you’re simply someone who is easily offended. I added White Goddess to my blog roll because it was funny. I like it. Also because I generally find white women to be very attractive. If I see a group of white females, I’m sure that a few will catch my interest. If I see a group of black females, none will catch my eye. That isn’t me being sadistic, I’m speaking from my own experiences. Other people may have different opinions. Some may not like white women at all. So what’s wrong with me voicing my opinion?

    Let me ask you this? What of a black male who only liked black women, and said that only 1 in a million white women were attractive? Would you berate him like you have me? This question isn’t just to you Natasha, but to anybody who has felt the need to ‘come at me’ negatively.

    Thad. How in a non-existent God’s name did you get that out of my post? I don’t believe in racial pride. I don’t have pride in race, at all.

    Y. I was ‘reaching out’ to white nationalists? That’s the best you can come up with? Did you bother to read the rest of it? The post was primarily against what they believe. Do not try to paint me as some coon who wants to kiss up to white people, or be considered ‘the good n!gger’ because I’m not. Way to go Y. You have revealed your shocking inability to comprehend. You read a few things, and then twisted them here to make me sound like something I’m not.


  743. oops…i’m feeling slightly sheepish. lol.


  744. LOL. No reason to. I actually think it’s nice when people mistake my gender.


  745. Arrogance!what would really motivate someone to come over to a Black-owned blog, and state his non-preference for Black women. I mean, we are fine that people have their own preferences, and nobody would begrudge him a preference for women of his own ethnicity.

    But to think of the trouble it takes to write these long posts about why Black women are so undesirable, and then post them on a Black-owned blog site… it just makes you wonder why he goes through all of that trouble, doesn’t it?


  746. jas0nburns says,

    The stepsisters were envious of Cinderella’s beauty and so treated her like sh**. Black women are beautiful and have no doubt been treated like sh** by white people.

    But does that prove that white women are envious of BW? And this envy is the motivation for said shi**y treatment? Hardly. I don’t think envy is behind white supremacy and saying so does not amount to a denial of it’s existence.

    laromana says,
    Based on SLAVERY and HISTORICAL ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE in American culture and media there are SOME WW who are envious of BW and have used/are using their White privilege to mistreat BW and to ELEVATE their beauty status AT THE EXPENSE of BW’s beauty status.

    Why is this so impossible for you to accept?


  747. Here’s an interesting aside…

    When I do a Google for “The myth of white racism”, the first part of MC’s book’s notional title, the only sites which pop up are far right, white “patriot” sites.

    As old J would say, “Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm….”


  748. Based on SLAVERY and HISTORICAL ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE in American culture and media there are SOME WW who are envious of BW and have used/are using their White privilege to mistreat BW and to ELEVATE their beauty status AT THE EXPENSE of BW’s beauty status.

    Why is this so impossible for you to accept?

    Because I don’t see it being historically expressed by white women, anywhere.

    Frex, just read “The Awakening” this Sunday, a seminal book of feminism written in the late 19th century. It’s told from the POV of an upper-class white southern belle and it’s a very moving and interesting book.

    But what’s very interesting, to me, is all the non-white women around the fringes of the novel. There are almost as many of them as white women in the novel and yet only three even have names. They are basically just pieces of scenery: “the quadroon governess”, “the little black girl”, “the mulatress”…

    The author isn’t being so much racist (though she very well could be, for all I know), as she’s simply depicting the world view of a white upperclass woman of the belle epoque south. Non-white and poor white women weren’t even really people: they were out of site and out of mind as today’s afganis are to most of the people posting here. Not that they weren’t real, mind you, or even not notionally human beings: they just weren’t PEOPLE. Y’know, living human folk who are socially part of one’s universe.

    No, I really don’t think that for the most part of white racism in the U.S., white women were dying of jealousy over black women’s looks. Sorry. Ol’ MC is going to have to come up with some pretty spectacular evidence to back up that spectacular claim.


  749. “Based on SLAVERY and HISTORICAL ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE in American culture and media there are SOME WW who are envious of BW and have used/are using their White privilege to mistreat BW and to ELEVATE their beauty status AT THE EXPENSE of BW’s beauty status.”

    I accept everything about that if you take out. “are envious of BW”

    So if it reads:

    “Based on SLAVERY and HISTORICAL ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE in American culture and media there are SOME WW who have used/are using their White privilege to mistreat BW and to ELEVATE their beauty status AT THE EXPENSE of BW’s beauty status.”

    The above statement makes sense. So I accept it. But you just snuck the envious bit in there. I don’t have a problem admitting that whites could be envious of blacks. I just don’t see the significance. Where is the relationship of envy to what you are saying? Are there some examples besides fake tanning jersey shore reject douche-bags and bodybuilders?

    you might as well have said:

    “Based on SLAVERY and HISTORICAL ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE in American culture and media there are SOME WW who love chocolate ice cream and have used/are using their White privilege to mistreat BW and to ELEVATE their beauty status AT THE EXPENSE of BW’s beauty status.”


  750. I agree. Case i point: the most famous/successful supermodel in the world: Gisele Bundchen:http://frillr.com/files/images/Gisele%20Bundchen_1.jpgif they were anything other than anorexic-looking, and boyish, they wouldn’t be chosen as ‘super models’ by the so-called ‘Gay Mafia’ which runs the fashion industry! It’s there social construct, and their choice of females. The women are NOT chosen for their femininity.


  751. I would have to agree with Thad. But I do think in the world today it seems many “races” want some of the other races have.

    I wonder what MC would say about the Japanese ganguro’s/gyaru’s. Is the theory only white women are envious of black women or all “races” of women envious of black women’s beauty?

    Also, you can appreciate another persons looks and admire it and even want a little bit of it without being envious.


  752. @Thad,

    I could be mistaken, but there seem to be similar tendencies developing in the states (though nothing so overt). It’s kind of weird from the standpoint of American history, but there does seem to be a tendency among some (non-whites) to view “mixing” as a way of improving the outcomes of one’s children and among others as a way of ameliorating social divisions and social inequality.


  753. Based on SLAVERY and HISTORICAL ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE in American culture and media there are SOME WW who have used/are using their White privilege to mistreat BW and to ELEVATE their beauty status AT THE EXPENSE of BW’s beauty status.

    I’d agree with that, too.

    Y’know, I noticed a funny pattern that keeps repeating itself on this blog.

    Black posters keep insisting that white people are “really envious of” or “really feel guilty about” blacks. And almost every white person here has said “No, that’s not how they feel.”

    Going on the “like knows more about like” thesis alone (which most people here seem to accept), one would think white people’s views on what other white people feel would be taken with at least some seriousness as potentially having value.

    But this, to me, is the real kicker: for all the ethno-nationalist and afro-whatnot chest-thumping on this blog, it seems to me that the black posters actually expect more humanity out of whites than the white posters do. After all, to feel guilty or envious means that one has some sort of human resentment working at the base of one’s soul. And that might indeed be the case of some really warped white specimens, such as the crowd over on Stormfront.

    But – and I think I can say this with some authority, having heard many white opinions that would never be voiced outside of family and close friends – I’d say most whites are racist in the sense that they SIMPLY DO NOT CARE. They do not see blacks as co-citizens or people who inhabit their social universe. To most American whites (and plenty Brazilians), blacks are basically something you see on T.V., although maybe daddy has one in his office at work.

    I think you folks need to put away the tortured psychological analysis of this phenomenon and turn to Hanna Arendt and her thoughts on the banalization of evil.

    That, in my mind, is how most white racism works today.


  754. @Mel
    Gisele may be alot of things, but I’d hardly call that butt “anorexic looking”.


  755. ^btw, I wouldn’t say “white privilege” in that quote, either. I’d say “prejudice and accumulated positional advantage”.


  756. Are ethnonationalists stupid or is it racism that makes them seem so? :D


  757. “I’d say most whites are racist in the sense that they SIMPLY DO NOT CARE. They do not see blacks as co-citizens or people who inhabit their social universe. ”

    Either that, Or they genuinely perceive themselves as superior.
    morally and socially.


  758. Why wasn’t my post published? Too long?

    King, I am aware of that. I don’t think of it as a universal ‘truth’ but I am free to have my own personal taste am I not? I can’t prove that only 1 in a million black women are attractive. First and foremost because it is completely subjective. And 2nd that figure was more satire than an actual estimate. However it is true, in my view, that the black women that I find attractive are few and far between. It doesn’t have to be the same for you since it is, as I said, completely subjective. There is no underlying racism behind it. I have never found black women attractive, generally. I am a mixed race individual who is half black american and hispanic and I grew up in a predominantly hispanic neighborhood. In other words, I’ve been around girls and women with lighter skin and ‘nicer’ features my entire life. Naturally that is what I gravitate to.

    Y. You are correct. I’m sure there are millions of black men and non-black men who disagree with my statements. What of it? The only thing that proves is subjectivity. It doesn’t ‘prove’ me wrong because there’s nothing to prove wrong. I simply stated my opinion.

    Menelik? What’s wrong with my blog’s content? Is it all the video game talk? Atheism? What? Is it somehow supposed to devalue my opinion?

    Y. If my post somehow made it seem as though what I said was ‘fact’ then I’m sorry. That wasn’t my intention.

    Menelik: Answer me this. What is wrong with wanting to be of another race? How is it any different than wishing you had fuller lips, or tanned skin. How is it any different than any of that? I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I’d prefer to be white. It sure would make dating white girls easier lol. That doesn’t mean that I am not content with myself as I am, because I am. I have no ‘crisis’ going on. You’re just assuming things.


  759. Actually Menelik, I’ve seen some pretty handsome black males. That doesn’t mean I’m gay because I certainly am not sexually attracted to any male. Hell, I think Denzel Washington is a good looking guy. I abandoned any type of ‘nigga’ mentality long ago. I’m not your Riley Freeman type of black person who thinks everything is gay or who embraces thug culture or ebonics and all that crap. You however, are assuming that I am. Taking that into consideration, I find it hard to believe that you’re an authority on psychology.

    Natasha W.

    I frequently post on Stormfront debating AGAINST the White Nationalists. Even they consider me an anti-racist and if they consider me anti-racist, then you’re simply someone who is easily offended. I added White Goddess to my blog roll because it was funny. I like it. Also because I generally find white women to be very attractive. If I see a group of white females, I’m sure that a few will catch my eye. If I see a group of black females, none will catch my eye. That isn’t me being sadistic, I’m speaking from my own experiences. Other people may have different opinions. Some may not like white women at all. So what’s wrong with my voicing my opinion?

    Let me ask you this? What of a black male who only liked black women, and said that only 1 in a million white women were attractive? Would you berate him like you have me? This question isn’t just to you Natasha, but to anybody who has felt the need to ‘come at me’ negatively.
    Thad. How in a non-existent God’s name did you get that out of my post? I don’t believe in racial pride. I don’t have pride in race, at all.

    Y. I was ‘reaching out’ to white nationalists? That’s the best you can come up with? Did you bother to read the rest of it? The post was primarily against what they believe. Do not try to paint me as some guy who wants to kiss up to white people, or be considered ‘the good n*****’ because I’m not. Way to go Y. You have revealed your shocking inability to comprehend. You read a few things, and then twisted them here to make me sound like something I’m not.


  760. “Gisele may be alot of things, but I’d hardly call that butt “anorexic looking”

    I’m afraid I’m going to have to cast my vote with the anorexic assessment.

    http://img.listal.com/image/389033/600full-gisele-bundchen.jpg


  761. on Tue 26 Oct 2010 at 02:32:38 Menelik Charles


  762. “King, I am aware of that. I don’t think of it as a universal ‘truth’ but I am free to have my own personal taste am I not?”

    I think we have already conceded that. Unto each his own.

    But do yourself a favor and stop trying to understand the Stormfront crowd. Insanity is like a disease, hang around it long enough and you may end up infected yourself.


  763. on Tue 26 Oct 2010 at 02:33:24 Menelik Charles

    For Alex…enjoy!


  764. @Jason
    Either that, Or they genuinely perceive themselves as superior. morally and socially.

    Based on the U.S. whites I know, I doubt that too. It’s more of a fatal lack of imagination than any deep-seated feeling of superiority.

    The same lack of imagination, btw, that I note in most americans, regardless of color – and that DeToqueville noted close to 200 years ago. Only in whites it feeds the banality of evil complex.


  765. “Frankly, some of these self-proclaimed mixed people that promote white and mixed women as better or more attractive than “pure” black women make me very wary, if not downright ill sometimes.”

    I hope this does not refer to me. For the record, I find many predominantly and fully black women attractive and think that racism does have alot to do with popular evaluations of attractiveness. However, I object to those who dismiss appreciation of mixed beauty as “colorism” or who argue that mixed race women are merely a poor man’s version of white women and lack their own distinctiveness.


  766. This have been going on for 400 years or longer,this is a form of brainwashing African Americans into believing that they are ugly,that’s a damn LIE! If you would look at the BIG PICTURE,why are they trying to get our complexsion? Why now all of a sudden they want an A** like us,something we ALWAYS had! Why are they trying to wear afros and braids,they have been wearing hair extensions since back in the 1800,they was the ones who wore wigs,if you remember we didn’t have the MONEY to afford things like that. Our mother and grandmother use to braid our hair,SEE,I know the truth and I know we are some beautiful people,we come in ALL shades,we are the rainbow people. Their ENVIOUS of us, because they only come in ONE color (PINK) not WHITE like they are PURE,something they want us to believe,CAN”T YOU SEE? The Media glamorize PINK women all over, in the damn magazines they are everywhere,to make us think this is what’s beauty is, this is another way of brainwashing if this is all you see,your going to think this is what beauty is.THE DEVIL IS A LIE! BABY GIRLS! WE are BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE and DON”T let NO ONE DEFINE WHO YOU ARE! I LOVE MY BEAUTIFUL RAINBOW PEOPLE! WAKE-UP MY PEOPLE!


  767. This is what’s so stunning about Gisele Bunchen being INTENTIONALLY picked and promoted by white mainstream American and European fashion markets as the epitome of Brazilian beauty. In Brazil, Gisele is not the ideal and is considered kind of ugly and boyish. But, the fashion industry selected her essentially because she’s an unmistakably white female from an exotic country. They can sell her as the Brazilian exotic, even if she just looks German and not the Brazilian idealOmar Vega, a Chilean who comments on many of these American social issues blogs, says that Afro-European mixed women are at the top of the Latin American beauty scale as well.


  768. No, Alex, my reading comprehension is just fine, thank you. However trying to figure out why irrational racists hate you for who you are along with linking to a blog that occasionally denigrates the beauty of non-white women makes you suspect in my eyes.

    BTW nobody said you couldnt have your preferences. We are just calling out this all too common statement made by men with preferences that exclude black women that it is somehow object FACT that beautiful black women are rarer than beautiful non-black women, especially if said black women are unmixed/dark-skinned.


  769. Alex, a couple of things I’m wondering about…

    Answer me this. What is wrong with wanting to be of another race? How is it any different than wishing you had fuller lips, or tanned skin. How is it any different than any of that?

    Because first of all, belief in the notion of biological race is just pathetic and stupid, to begin with. So to then go around claiming that you want to be ANOTHER race is piling up ignorance on top of stupidty and pathos. What the hell do you want to be, man? Venusian?

    Thad. How in a non-existent God’s name did you get that out of my post? I don’t believe in racial pride. I don’t have pride in race, at all.

    Dude, you’re saying you “understand” how Stormfront needs to feel “pride” in race. What clearer indication would you have that you think that race is somehow necessary to human identity and notions of self?


  770. I would have to agree with Mel. Giselle is sold to us as an exotic Brazilian beauty but to me(and many others) she just looks like Heidi Klum’s man-faced cousin.

    Adriana Lima and Alessadra Ambrosio, although they look pretty white are closer to the “Brazilian” look.

    @Thad, that links makes me want to cry :-(


  771. @Mel
    In Brazil, Gisele is not the ideal and is considered kind of ugly and boyish.

    Mel, sorry to pop your bubble there, but Gisele is not considered “ugly and boyish” in Brazil. And no, A Chilean blogueiro who doesn’t even speak our language (Portugese) really has nothing to say about how the culture here works.

    That said, Brazilians are generally surprised that North Americans find Gisele to be anything other than 100% white. Down here, she’s generally seen as an “alemoa” (A big German woman). It’s a commentary on American racial views that anything from south of your borders needs must be considered “exotic” and “non-white” no matter how white it is. We tend to find North American classifications of Gisele as “exotic” and “mixed” to be amusingly uninformed conciets.


  772. Y, given that our country is in fact even MORE racially diverse than the U.S. what, prey tell, is “the Brazilian look”, exactly?

    It makes me want to point out that to the rest of the world, Leonardo DiCaprio is “the American look”.


  773. I’d prefer to be white. It sure would make dating white girls easier lol. That doesn’t mean that I am not content with myself as I am, because I am. I have no ‘crisis’ going on. You’re just assuming things.

    ROFL LMAO x1000! WOW How did I miss that? This mixed race man says we would prefer to be white, yet he thinks Im f*cked up for saying he sympathizes with Stormfront.

    Sorry buddy you cant be content with yourself and turn around and say you want to be white. Thats like me saying Im content with my body but I want to lose 15lbs.

    LMAO

    Self-hatred, cognitive dissonance, deflection all in one post. I must have one some type of commenter jackpot. ROFL

    BTW Alex, plenty of white girls are interested in black/Hispanic men one doesnt need to be white in order to snag a white girl..But given you propensity towards racial pedaling(i.e. White Worship) I can see why you would think that.

    SMH


  774. @Thad

    Id imagine a woman with olive skintone, dark hair, in short a woman that looks racially ambiguous…not a woman that looks like she just got off a plane from Munich


  775. pedaling = pedestaling


  776. Here’s a pretty Brazilian actress (unfortunately, she can’t act fer shit…): Thaís de Araujo.

    http://www.96fm.com.br/portal/_upimgs/FCK/thais_araujo_jrduran_div_08122009.jpg

    …and the same actress, playing “white”:

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_t28smenGTTE/SWeZdpSk9BI/AAAAAAAABRY/dj6-

    Kinda supports my wife’s thesis that the ultimate Brazilian racial value is not purity, but flexibility.


  777. And here’s a white Brazilian “type” that I find typical and very cute: Fernanda Torres. Half the cuteness, though, is simply her skill as an actress and pure charisma (something Which I do not see, sadly, in Thais)….

    http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRtq1O4YhHTSI5wl1CmUjkWW_l2CKxTxv1W3oA8TciFhylQ0sg&t=1&usg=__QmbTNwtH1NpWp1uico8ZoW0suPg=


  778. Fernanda, as Aurea, opposite Seu Jorge, as Massu, Aurea’s eventual husband, in the epic “House of Sand”. Perhaps one of the best films, ever, about Brazilian modernity.

    http://images.allmoviephoto.com/2006_House_of_Sand/2006_house_of_sand_009.jpg

    …and Aurea and Massu with their grandchildren, played by Fernanda’s mom, Fernanda Montenegra, and Luiz Melodia.

    http://images.allmoviephoto.com/2006_House_of_Sand/2006_house_of_sand_004.jpg

    Hopefully, these images will get MC and Kwamla’s knickers in a twist.


  779. Id imagine a woman with olive skintone, dark hair, in short a woman that looks racially ambiguous…not a woman that looks like she just got off a plane from Munich

    The problem with that belief is that, like the U.S., we have some of the largest German colonies in the world. And Gisele comes from smack dab in the middle of one of them. But she’s just as much a Brazilian as Mei Ly is (I’m presuming) an American.


  780. Black women at Abagond,

    Why are you all even in this thread? What are you getting out of it? What in h3ll are BW SUPPOSED to get out of threads like these? I don’t see the point in begging or trying to convince people like alex to value BW. Yes, I know it could be difficult to read things like what he writes, but I’ve seen worse on the internet. And he’s not even original. He’s not the first man to feel and write his screed and he won’t be the last.

    Alex, thank you for removing yourself as a potential suitor of BW. All you’d do is make her miserable for daring to be Black, female and alive. BW don’t need YOU or the likes of you added to our burdens.

    Ladies, it’s not like we haven’t encountered plenty of Alexes in our lives. I grew up in colorist-azz Chicago. The only difference is that the worship was for light-skinned, mixed-looking or Latina women as it was thought that “getting” a WW was nigh on impossible for a BM. I’m sure THAT has all changed in the last 25 years. Alex doesn’t shock me. Alex is everywhere. He’s the guy who looks through every BW he encounters and zeroes in on WW. He’s the one that pushes and knocks BW out of the way in the club to get to a WW. He’s the one that holds the door for WW and lets it slam in the face of the BW following, often with a smirk on his.

    That’s why I believe, less and less in any sort of “race unity” or “racial obligation” between the sexes. For BW in the romantic arena the dilemma of dating intra- vs. interracially is really six of one and half a dozen of the other. No group of men is really clammoring for BW. But there are plenty of individual men who at least are not so stupid that they’d pass up a good woman based on skin color.

    BW need to get in where they fit in and the h3ll with what whoever thinks. Those that don’t find BW attractive will simply stay the h3ll away from us. And really, that’s the most and best you can expect from them. If they do that, count yourself lucky. You don’t need the whole world to find you desirable, you just need that one person whom you desire right back.

    Obviously a lot of non-BW get a lot out of disparaging BW here and in other places on the net. But what are we getting out of engaging them? No one’s mind is being changed. And all BW are getting is at the very least frustrated YET AGAIN. All this trying to convince mofos who don’t see you as even human, forget about desirable, that you are? Waste of time, pixels, bandwidth and energy.


  781. Y.

    Well I didn’t say nor do I think it is a ‘fact’. So take your frustrations out on someone else.

    Thad, you know what I meant. Whether race exists or not does not mean a thing or is even relevant to what I said. Would you rather I phrase it differently? How about ‘what is wrong with wanting to have a different skin color?’ ‘What is wrong with wanting different facial features?’ etc. It’s really no different than any other dissatisfaction with one’s own physical appearance.

    As for your other point. Where is the logic in that? Simply because you understand how somebody feels, doesn’t mean you feel the same way. I’m sure a psychologist understands how a person with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder feels, does that means he also has an Obsessive Compulsive Disorder?


  782. It’s weird hearing people here talk about whether white females are envious of black females, because I was attacked on the Bethany Storro thread for saying they weren’t.

    I still maintain that the sentiment white females have for black females is driven by white supremacy not envy.

    I know many blacks want to hear this –that white women are envious, but I wish we as black people would stop saying it. It feels more like wishful thinking than anything else–like we’re trying to compensate for an inferiority complex or something.

    White women get tans, collagen lips and butt implants because they’re shallow and fickle (blame the media)–not because they’re trying to be black. The moment the trends change, they’ll start lusting after whatever the latest trend in cosmetics is.

    Someone mentioned a book written about a white, middle class southern woman, where the black females are on the periphery. Mad Men is similar in premise, too. Blacks are marginalized on the show because it’s written from the perspective of a white, WASP, middle man. In their world, blacks didn’t exist.


  783. @ Thad

    I suppose that was my American relativism showing

    @Witchsistah

    I usually opt out, but Im feeling feisty today ;-D

    @Alex

    No frustration here sweetie, Im just telling you about yourself. Its obvious you cannot put two and two together and realize why your statements on this blog are causing people to call your assertions (and mental health) into question.


  784. The fact that you refer to it as a German colony, suggests it’s not Brazilain. Brazilians are mostly mixed race, and being of mixed heritage is considered essentially Brazilian, unlike the U.S. where most people still belong to distinct ethnic groups/races. Germans in Brazil stay to themselves and still speak German, regardless of how long their ancestors have been in the country. It’s like they represent their own little world in Brazil, and it’s why they can be easily identified as German, as opposed to most Brazilians like say Adriana Lima, who is ethnically ambiguous.The problem with that belief is that, like the U.S., we have some of the largest German colonies in the world. And Gisele comes from smack dab in the middle of one of them. But she’s just as much a Brazilian as Mei Ly is (I’m presuming) an American.


  785. Fine Y. what is so ‘wrong’ about my post? Elaborate for me? Can you do that? I don’t think you can because everything I’ve said is completely subjective. I haven’t pushed my beliefs onto anyone, and I don’t say my beliefs are either right or wrong. There IS nothing actually ‘wrong’ or ‘right’ with wanting a different skin color or anything else. People have their own personal tastes, is that what you’re arguing against? Would you rather everyone conform to your view of the world, if not label them mentally challenged?

    I re-read my original post on this blog and there was nothing offensive about it. The funny thing is though that I actually complimented a black woman on her looks, yet simply because I don’t say the same about EVERY black woman, I’m a racist. Well, there you have it folks.

    This is my original post: http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/06/05/are-black-women-ugly-or-is-it-racism-that-makes-them-seem-so/#comment-68625


  786. @Alex
    I have my own preference of men as well. but *and I think Thad touched on this* race is not a real thing. only a social construct. So, you can not say you don’t find black women attractive because “black” isn’t real.
    I do think you have a preference for what you like, and that’s fine. I have my preference but I don’t go around saying things like, i have only seen one in a million half black half latino guys good looking. To be honest, they don’t turn my head, however, i can’t say they are not good looking. I wouldn’t go on a blog for them and talk down on their looks. It’s mean and tacky. Especally when the people you are talking about are many times looked down on. Why keep kicking the dead horse? Why make this known to black women? I’m sure you wouldn’t say this to your black grandmother *if you have one* “hey grandma, you’re not good looking because you are black.” what if you have black nieces or friends with black children? Will you tell them your opinion. Or what if they get some heartbreak? Will you say, “oh, it’s because you are black and not good looking?”
    I am an ultra picky female when it comes to looks *for men and women*. VERY VERY picky. But just because I have this feeling I don’t say things like you said. I think it comes down to if you have nothing nice to say then say nothing at all.


  787. @Alex
    Thad, you know what I meant. Whether race exists or not does not mean a thing or is even relevant to what I said. Would you rather I phrase it differently? How about ‘what is wrong with wanting to have a different skin color?’ ‘What is wrong with wanting different facial features?’ etc. It’s really no different than any other dissatisfaction with one’s own physical appearance.

    Sorry, I beg to differ. Race, as a concept, is a HELL of a lot different from physical appearance and your letter to Stormfront makes it very clear that you are well aware of this fact. Race presumes a whole series of linked physical traits which are, in turn, supposedly determinative of behaviors. Saying you (dis)like a certain race is nothing at all like saying you (dis)like a certain skin tone or what have you.

    As for your other point. Where is the logic in that? Simply because you understand how somebody feels, doesn’t mean you feel the same way.

    No doubt. But in the letter I read, you make it clear that you consider racial pride to be basically a good thing.


  788. @Mel
    The fact that you refer to it as a German colony, suggests it’s not Brazilain.

    Mel, that statement makes no sense when you’re talking about a settler state like the U.S. or Brazil. “German” is an ethnicity, not a representation of the German state. What you’re saying is like saying “Italian restraunts aren’t really American because they’re Italian”. No, precisely because the U.S. is a patchwork of ethnicities, like Brazil, there is nothing more American, in certain contexts, than an Italian restraunt, Chinese food, or a German bratwurst.

    And there’s nothing more Brazilian than blonde, buxom hick girls from the German backland colonies of the south.

    Brazilians are mostly mixed race, and being of mixed heritage is considered essentially Brazilian, unlike the U.S. where most people still belong to distinct ethnic groups/races.

    Yes, but this is as much of a myth as the American myth that to be essentially American is to be WASP. Sure, that’s the country’s view of itself, most of the time. That view – like most countries’ views of themselves – is a “just so” story we tell children, not real history or real life and it’s important to be clear on that distinction.

    Anyone who thinks that there aren’t clear-cut ethnicities in Brazil has never been. Walk through downtown São Paulo sometime from south to north and you’ll pass through Korean, Chinese, Japanese, German, Anglo-American, Italian, Northeastern Brazilian, Jewish, Armenian and Bolivian neighborhoods in quick succession.

    Germans in Brazil stay to themselves and still speak German, regardless of how long their ancestors have been in the country.

    Sorry, that’s another myth, one that was bandied about by the authoritarian Vargas regime during WWII. It has been quite handily dismanteled for more than 50 years now by history and anthropology. Yes indeed, there ARE backwoods colonies like the one Gisele comes from and many of these places still keep German alive as a language (or, more truthfully, keep some proto-German dialect like Pommeranian alive), but in all of those places, people have been speaking Portuguese for the better part of a half-century now. Furthermore, the vast majority of German-Brazilians don’t live in such places. As is the case in the U.S., they live in big cities like São Paulo and most of them don’t know more than a few words in German, if that. São Paulo, btw, is Brazil’s largest German colony, by population.

    It’s like they represent their own little world in Brazil, and it’s why they can be easily identified as German, as opposed to most Brazilians like say Adriana Lima, who is ethnically ambiguous.

    Not only is that NOT likely, it is simply not true. Most German-Brazilians live the same way I live: as members of a modern, Portuguese-speaking, polyethnic, urban Brazil.

    As for Adriana Lima, I don’t know what “ethnic ambiguity” you see there, exactly, unless you mean unethnic white. She’s considered to be the same sort of “type” as Gisele by most Brazilians. She gets slotted in as “y’know, them white supermodel types that Veja loves so much”.

    You’d have a very, very hard time finding a Brazilian who considers Adriana to be anything but blonde and white. In fact, I bet that if I told most Brazilians she came from the same valley as Gisele, those who don’t know her history wouldn’t be in the least bit surprised.

    So I really don’t know what “ambiguity” you’re seeing there. I seriously don’t.


  789. I always thought Gisele was not so pretty with a big nose. I’m picky about noses. I sort of learned to appreciate her looks. LOL.


  790. I’ll stick with Thais and Fernanda, above, thanks. :D


  791. I think there is a difference between finding someone good looking and being attracted to the person.


  792. @Truth B. Told,

    It honestly sounds like you are not interested in Black women. All of your responses just sound too well-thought-out to be random. It sounds like you’ve been sulking over this for a while. If you aren’t attracted to Black women why come here to argue. Go to the White Forum. I’m not saying that be mean but…I think you should leave.


  793. Alex,

    “I frequently post on Stormfront debating AGAINST the White Nationalists. Even they consider me an anti-racist and if they consider me anti-racist, then you’re simply someone who is easily offended. I added White Goddess to my blog roll because it was funny. I like it. Also because I generally find white women to be very attractive. If I see a group of white females, I’m sure that a few will catch my eye. If I see a group of black females, none will catch my eye. That isn’t me being sadistic, I’m speaking from my own experiences.”

    I wonder what your black grandmother would think of that? We already know what your black father would think of it; someone taught you to look down on black women.

    Look, you likened yourself to John McWhorter. Last time I checked, John McWhorter said “racism in America is over” since we have a “black” president. That doesn’t sound like an anti-racist to me.

    But of course you would consider yourself an anti-racist in comparison to Stomfronters; I consider myself tall in comparison to Lil’ Kim. Don’t fool yourself: the fact is you’re anything but an anti-racist, and the only person who doesn’t see that is you.

    On top of that, you’re a self-hater. “[You'd] prefer to be white”? How absolutely pitiful. There’s just no other way to describe it.

    Don’t even try that “what if I said this about white women” tripe, because you know just as well as I do that that’s a moot comparison. Those situations are night and day.

    Why you felt the need to come here and spew your bile on black women is beyond me. I’ll never understand black males (and you are a black male: look in the mirror) who think that disparaging black women in every possible venue is going to elevate them. The world is laughing at you while you dig your own grave.

    ——

    Witchsistah,

    “Black women at Abagond,

    Why are you all even in this thread? What are you getting out of it? What in h3ll are BW SUPPOSED to get out of threads like these?”

    I have no idea. I think this post (and similar ones on this blog) are annoying, really. I’m sure abagond had positive interests in mind when he created them, but they are practically begging for self-hating and/or black women-hating losers like Alex to enter and prove to us once again that the world is full of fools who can’t think for themselves and allow racism to think for them.

    “Ladies, it’s not like we haven’t encountered plenty of Alexes in our lives. I grew up in colorist-azz Chicago. The only difference is that the worship was for light-skinned, mixed-looking or Latina women … Alex doesn’t shock me. Alex is everywhere.”

    Indeed. Alex is everywhere. I know a million and one Alexes.

    Yup, I had the same experience as you did re: the worship of mixed and/or Latina women. That was why I was surprised that people thought white women were the “ideal”, because I never heard jack about them: only the “hot” Puerto Ricans and “mixies”… Dear Lord, make the self-hate stop.

    ‘That’s why I believe, less and less in any sort of “race unity” or “racial obligation” between the sexes.’

    You believe in “race unity” between the sexes, even a bit? Huh, you need to wake up. No such thing exists. Even the black men who have supposedly “defended” black women here, I’ve seen on other blogs saying the complete opposite. I treat every black person on a case by case basis.


  794. alex,

    You asked people to take a look at your first comment, that you don’t find offensive. So, let’s see…

    I’m not generally attracted to black women.

    Fair enough. Even though anybody saying they’re not attracted to the whole race get a side eye from me. But ok, you’re not attracted to black women, you are attracted to who you are attracted to. So let’s move on.

    It’s definitely not the skin color though. I’ve known and seen black women as dark and darker than I that were extremely attractive.

    It just means you claim not to be colourist. It still doesn’t “prove” anything, certainly not that your opinions are non-offensive.

    The thing is, black women as attractive as Tatyana are probably 1 in a million, i.e very rare.

    Bingo! We have a winner! You are moving from your personal opinion and are trying to make it universal… Fail.

    In all my years I can probably count the number of ‘pure’ black women I’ve found attractive on one hand.

    So? It says nothing about the women in question. Maybe you simply have a bad taste in women and miss all those beautiful black women? (not that it’s a loss to miss a guy who thinks like you).

    Sure, there are alot of attractive black women who are light skinned and mixed, but I’m not counting them.

    Oh, why? Because light skinned women/mixed women are not “really” black?

    This isn’t ‘hateful’ in anyway.

    I am afraid it is. You claim to be an anti-racist. I am afraid you fail a big time when it comes to this.

    I’m just saying how I feel yet I’ve been branded racist for this on numerous occasions.

    Yeah, well, all those Stormfronters are just saying how they feel, don’t they?


  795. Lol, Mira. Thanks for spelling that out.

    @ wtf,

    “Truth B. Told” has his very own blog dedicated to bashing black women. Seriously: that is the sole subject matter of the blog. So yes, he has been ruminating on this topic for quite some time. But the kicker is that many people who have commented here in defense of black women are frequenters of that blog! In fact, they publicly laud him for every single post.


  796. I really do not understand bashing black women (or anyone). If you don’t like it why talk about it?


  797. on Tue 26 Oct 2010 at 14:52:35 Menelik Charles


  798. Well Menelik it shouldn’t be hard to end racism then. All we need to do is open mixed race gyms all over the country so white men can see that blacks aren’t stronger and don’t have bigger di**s! Then everything will be cool.


  799. laromana says,
    Based on SLAVERY and HISTORICAL ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE in American culture and media there are SOME WW who are envious of BW and have used/are using their White privilege to mistreat BW and to ELEVATE their beauty status AT THE EXPENSE of BW’s beauty status.

    Why is this so impossible for you to accept?

    You know I find it INCREDIBLE that on a quality blog, like this, dedicated to, among other things, exploring issues of race and racism. Blatant (though subtle) examples of the aforementioned abound in the posting of certain proclaimed “anti-racists.”

    Its unconscious racist subtleties like these which Abagond is at pains to bring to public attention. Which is why his blogs have such an avid following for those who wish to learn as well as those who wish to contribute to them.

    Why even one commentator put together what she described as “Fashion Tips” to help in dealing with exposing these subtleties. Though it was aimed at Black people and POC. Maybe a second one is needed for white people or PO(no)C.???

    Now my point is this. Why was the above post so hard for certain posters to accept?

    One poster decided to change it thus:

    “Based on SLAVERY and HISTORICAL ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE in American culture and media there are SOME WW who are envious of BW and have used/are using their White privilege to mistreat BW and to ELEVATE their beauty status AT THE EXPENSE of BW’s beauty status.”

    I accept everything about that if you take out. “are envious of BW”

    So if it reads:

    “Based on SLAVERY and HISTORICAL ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE in American culture and media there are SOME WW who have used/are using their White privilege to mistreat BW and to ELEVATE their beauty status AT THE EXPENSE of BW’s beauty status.”

    The above statement makes sense. So I accept it. But you just snuck the envious bit in there. I don’t have a problem admitting that whites could be envious of blacks. I just don’t see the significance. Where is the relationship of envy to what you are saying? Are there some examples besides fake tanning jersey shore reject douche-bags and bodybuilders?

    Now that was quite acceptable for another who initially preferenced agreement:

    Based on SLAVERY and HISTORICAL ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE in American culture and media there are SOME WW who have used/are using their White privilege to mistreat BW and to ELEVATE their beauty status AT THE EXPENSE of BW’s beauty status.

    I’d agree with that, too.

    Y’know, I noticed a funny pattern that keeps repeating itself on this blog.

    Black posters keep insisting that white people are “really envious of” or “really feel guilty about” blacks. And almost every white person here has said “No, that’s not how they feel.”

    Going on the “like knows more about like” thesis alone (which most people here seem to accept), one would think white people’s views on what other white people feel would be taken with at least some seriousness as potentially having value.

    But then, apparently, changed his mind and wanted to add: (for consistency in previous debates of course!!)

    ^btw, I wouldn’t say “white privilege” in that quote, either. I’d say “prejudice and accumulated positional advantage”.

    WHATEVER!!! I think most Black people are aware of what the power of “whiteness” implies.

    Now here is that nice racist (whiteness) subtlety if you haven’t already noticed or picked up on it.

    laromana says:

    “…Why is this so impossible for you to accept?…”

    To which the first poster responds:

    I accept everything about that if you take out. “are envious of BW”

    But then the second poster agrees and expands on this with:

    Y’know, I noticed a funny pattern that keeps repeating itself on this blog.

    Black posters keep insisting that white people are “really envious of” or “really feel guilty about” blacks. And almost every white person here has said “No, that’s not how they feel.”

    Going on the “like knows more about like” thesis alone (which most people here seem to accept), one would think white people’s views on what other white people feel would be taken with at least some seriousness as potentially having value.

    Have you spotted it yet? It is very subtle.

    If you’re absorbed in “whiteness”, as these two posters are, you will probably need this additional statement to help with elucidation.

    If you read over the many postings in this thread you will notice Black posters have been saying there is a general tendency. conscious or otherwise, for white women to emulate the physical attributes of Black women. Not only that but also a conscious or otherwise inability to praise or
    acknowledge those same attributes positively on Black women. Then when they mysteriously appear on certain white women they then become prized assets with an entirely different origin and history.

    Its called “cultural (or in this case physical) appropriation” and has been going on for God knows how many years!!!!. Its happened in music, fashion art etc…..you name it.

    Now of course one would think that … Black people’s views on what other Black people feel would be taken with at least some seriousness as potentially having value.

    But you see. White people have been doing this, oh so naturally, all the time..I think what you really meant to say was…

    NO!!! WHAT I REALLY MEANT TO SAY WAS WHAT I SAID!!!

    “…Why is this so impossible for you to accept?…”

    But you see the added dimension to all of this is “whiteness” because its invisible to those who subscribe, consciously or otherwise, to this socially constructed concept. Just like the Black or POC characters in a typical science fiction novel. We are there for a moment but then we’re gone!! We are not central even in a Black science fiction screen adaptation of a novel (The Matrix – by Sophie Stewart) we still can’t be the central characters!!! We would be too invisible to be seen!!!

    However, in a world of whiteness this is all acceptable and only needs challenging when we mysteriously just appear in front of white people. Lets disregard the fact that Black people have been saying we were here all a long.

    Finally, it has to be said as one of the same posters here commented:

    But – and I think I can say this with some authority, having heard many white opinions that would never be voiced outside of family and close friends – I’d say most whites are racist in the sense that they SIMPLY DO NOT CARE. They do not see blacks as co-citizens or people who inhabit their social universe. To most American whites (and plenty Brazilians), blacks are basically something you see on T.V., although maybe daddy has one in his office at work.

    I accept everything about that if you add: humans.

    But – and I think I can say this with some authority, having heard many white opinions that would never be voiced outside of family and close friends – I’d say most whites are racist in the sense that they SIMPLY DO NOT CARE. They do not see blacks as humans, co-citizens or people who inhabit their social universe. To most American whites (and plenty Brazilians), blacks are basically something you see on T.V., although maybe daddy has one in his office at work.


  800. on Tue 26 Oct 2010 at 16:01:00 Menelik Charles


  801. on Tue 26 Oct 2010 at 16:14:08 Menelik Charles

    Kwamla asked:

    an old time favourite artist of yours is he then?

    Thad replied:

    Gil? Since about 1979, yeah. I first heard his stuff when I was 12. A more accurate summary of what I interpretate he was trying to say is summed up in that last quote. Hence the title of the song ” Brother”.

    But that still doesn’t get men like MC off the hook. And Gil’s MAIN point is that it’s quite easy for “brothers” like you and MC to spend your days spouting crap on bulletin boards, but what do you REALLY do in real life that supports your rhetoric? It’s very convenient that you come on here, anonymously, with your super-radical ethnonationalist raps, but who the hell are you in real life, Kwamla?

    Menelik says:

    Bro Kwamla, just keeping you up to speed on what wh*te boy has being saying…like you and I are hiding our identities lol

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    PS my response to this baseless diatribe follows below.


  802. on Tue 26 Oct 2010 at 16:20:37 Menelik Charles

    Thad,

    boy, you really are projecting aren’t you? First you accuse me of lying regarding the status of my book; then you accuse me of being anonymous! I am not on here to convince or persuade you of anything other than what you’re about to read below.

    My name IS my name, for what it is worth, and if I knew how to put a picture up on here I would. I give my location in the UK, and I am more than willing to discuss with like-minded folk off-line matters of mutual interest. I have no desire to hide my identity nor the nature of my work.

    Moreover, I have let it be known on here that I have spent the whole of my working life up until six years ago working and managing my uncle’s book-store in London (where I have met Gil Scot Heron on several occasions!), and also that myself and my partner are involved in the field of psychology and psychoanalysis.

    I am anything but anonymous!

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  803. Menelik,

    To put your picture up, you must register a gravatar.

    http://en.gravatar.com/

    After you do that, the image will appear immediately.


  804. on Tue 26 Oct 2010 at 16:37:18 Menelik Charles

    AlexG 1989 said:

    what is wrong with wanting to be of another race? I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: I’d prefer to be white. That doesn’t mean that I am not content with myself as I am, because I am. I have no ‘crisis’ going on. You’re just assuming things.

    Menelik replies:

    Alex, if you “prefer to be white” (direct quote) how can you be “content” with your racial identity as you claim? Put another way: how do you balance your stated desire with what you actually are?

    It doesn’t add up, me old coconut!

    What does make sense is that you’re keeping at bay a lurking identity crisis (present because you cannot live up to your racial ideal self) by projecting the disowned, disliked Black part of yourself onto Black female scapegoats.

    However, the irony is that far from rejecting Black women (or preferring white women) being the issue, the real issue is that you DON’T prefer yourself. Thus, the basis for a complete mental breakdown is but a single incident away. Maybe it will arrive when sufficient numbers of white people reject you and thus compound your own self-rejection.

    Good luck, mate!

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  805. on Tue 26 Oct 2010 at 16:39:55 Menelik Charles

    @ Mira,

    thanks, much appreciated!


  806. Thad.

    The concept of race was irrelevant to what I said. Preferring to have features that are prominent in a certain group of people does not mean you dislike any race. I wish I could lose a few pounds, does that mean I hate fat people? That’s what you’re implying. I would rather have European features so that means I hate black people? Your conclusions are illogical.

    I don’t believe race is determinative of one’s behavior.

    I don’t consider racial pride to be a good or bad thing. I’m neutral. I don’t particularly care about or have any racial pride. People can have pride in their race however much they want. It’s an individualistic thing. Personally, I don’t and I actually thought that letter made it very clear that I don’t. If you don’t believe me, I wrote an even older piece to Stormfronters where I made it very clear how I felt about racial pride. My stance on the subject since then has seen miniscule changes. Before, I was against racial pride and thought it as a fool’s game, now I’m just indifferent towards it. Here is a link to that ancient blog post of mine. http://artisticexpression.wordpress.com/2009/04/09/i-find-the-idea-of-white-pride-to-be-ridiculous/

    You’re reading too much into things Thad. Nothing in my piece ‘made it very clear’ that I thought racial pride was a good thing. I don’t even think I discussed it. Stop grasping for straws, you won’t get any here.

    Natasha… I don’t have a black grandmather and I’ve never met my father. I said I shared some similar views as John McWhorter. That however does not mean I agree with everything he believes. I personally know that racism in america is not over. Only a fool would say such a thing. Don’t presume someone guilty simply by association.

    There’s nothing wrong or pitiful with ‘preferring’ to be ‘white’ or hispanic, or anything else. That isn’t indicative of self-hatred. That is just the sensitivity of America, particularly black america, showing through. It’s understandable why a person with black heritage saying he’d prefer to be of another ‘race’, let alone white would be seen as insane. That’s perfectly understandable due to the circumstances and what black people have been through in this country. However, just because it’s understandable doesn’t mean it’s right, or correct. I’m not pitiful or a self-hater for saying I prefer lighter skin and European features.


  807. You believe in “race unity” between the sexes, even a bit? Huh, you need to wake up. No such thing exists

    No need to be condescending. You don’t know how small that belief was in the first place. I saw bs sexual politics between BM and BW since I was a little girl. First it was the hypocrisy of shouting “Black is Beautiful” and waggling fingers in BW’s and girls’ faces about how we should love ourselves as we were and not be “self-hating”, and BM chasing down mixed, light-skinned and non-Black women. This was in the 1970s, mind. The only time BM gave dark-skinned, Afritypic BW praise was to show how “down” with the movement they were. It was always forced and false. Those women NEVER got the spontaneous praise that “yaller gals” and “redbones” did.

    That only got worse in the 1980s. Then it was simply barefaced mixed, light-skinned and non-BW worship all out raw. Rappers rhapsodized about light-skinned beauties with “light-eyes.” Even LL Cool J said in “Rock the Bells:”

    So all you crappy lookin’, nappy-headed girls get back
    Cuz there’s a 10-to-1 chance that you might get smacked!

    The 1990s tried to be a mini-revival of the ’70s complete with Afrocentric “love yaself” vibe. But yet again, dark-skinned, Afritypic BW were not as esteemed as their lighter-skinned, less-Black-looking sorors.

    It seems like in the 2000s, BM have just plain abandoned the whole idea of even fronting like they care about BW, abandoned even the front of giving a damn about BW or hiding their preferences for non-BW. BW are just a corral of backup bytches for them to keep just in case things with Becky Sue, Soon Yi, Padme or Lupe don’t work out.

    Like I said, the dating arena for American BW regarding dating inside or outside the race is pretty even, six of one, half a dozen of the other. I remember my mother’s main refrain against me dating interracially was, “At least a BM’d marry you/consider you for marriage!” The message being, that a non-BM never would no matter how great a partner I was. Well, we all know the former is NO longer the case. And there is no racial group of men out there who are more loving and loyal to BW than another.

    That’s why I said it’s best for BW to get in where they fit in. Forget about race when choosing a partner, especially if you’re trying to determine which GROUP would be more amenable to be partnered with BW. And forget about what BM think and feel about it. They’ve been showing us for decades what they think and feel about us.


  808. Mira.

    First of all, I never said I wasn’t attracted to a whole race. I was careful with the wording. The word ‘general’ does not imply ‘all’.

    No, I never tried to make it universal. I don’t know what is so hard to understand about the 1 in a million comment. I was speaking about my own experiences. It is very rare for me to find a black woman whom I find attractive. The 1 in a million thing was just a joke but as I said it is true that I rarely, if ever find a black woman attractive. That’s all I said. I didn’t bash black women.

    Of course it doesn’t say anything about the women in question. Only that I’m not attracted to them. What’s your point? I never went any further than saying I wasn’t attracted to those women. For one, there is no such thing as good taste or bad taste, only personal taste. I am first and foremost about looks. If I am not attracted to a woman, I will not date her. That doesn’t mean that I will date a woman simply because of her looks, but I disgress. The point is that I have my own ‘prerequisites’ and the one at the very top is appearance. Unfortunately most black women I’ve seen do not have the look I am attracted to.

    No, because I have on more than one occasion witnessed black women, the ‘pure’ black women, get angry when black men say they prefer mixed or light skinned women. What if I say I found black women attractive, but only the mixed ones? Wouldn’t that rub you the wrong way anyway?

    And besides, they’re not really black anyway. They’re mixed. What society considers them to be is irrelevant, the fact is that they’re mixed. Obama calls himself black and everybody else calls him black, that’s fine. The fact is that he isn’t really ‘black’, he’s black and white.

    No, Mira… there’s nothing hateful about it. I have no ill-will towards black women or black people or people of any other ‘race’. I simply have my own personal taste and I voiced it. That is all that occurred here.


  809. Alex, Itachi Uchiha or whatever your name is going to be in the next fifteen minutes,

    As long as you stay away from BW, you should be fine. The fact you felt the need to come here and tell us that you find us unattractive and then try to make YOUR subjective feelings FACT (if you find us unattractive therefore we must BE unattractive).

    Dude, if you love non-BW so much, go and woo them, no need to even mention BW or have our name in your mouth. No need to mention how you feel about us.


  810. Alex,

    “Natasha… I don’t have a black grandmather and I’ve never met my father.”

    Figures.

    “There’s nothing wrong or pitiful with ‘preferring’ to be ‘white’ or hispanic [when you're not]…That isn’t indicative of self-hatred.”

    Wait a minute.

    Read those statements. Read them once more. Then try to figure out why they refute each other. You can not be this… slow. Sorry, I refuse to believe it. You’re only pulling our legs.

    —-

    Witchsistah,

    No condescension intended.

    “Forget about race when choosing a partner, especially if you’re trying to determine which GROUP would be more amenable to be partnered with BW.”

    And the church said: “Amen”.


  811. Menelik, I already explained it in a previous post. I won’t go through it again if you will only ignore it.

    Here it is again:

    “Y.

    I don’t see the humor at all and there’s nothing f’ed up about it. I am content as in it doesn’t affect my daily life. Have you never at one point in your life desired something you didn’t have? Longer hair, bigger breasts, longer legs, lighter skin, smaller lips, a brain? That’s okay, unless you obsess over it to the point you cannot function. That’s all there is to it, Y. There’s no White Worshiping going on from my end. I don’t ‘worship’ white people, only a fool would worship a ‘race’ of people. You’re the person here more preoccupied with race. If I had the money to alter my appearance, i.e give myself lighter skin and european features, I wouldn’t do it. Not for any ideological or racial pride reason, it just isn’t that big of a deal to me because I really am content with my appearance.”

    This is something I wrote to Y.


  812. on Tue 26 Oct 2010 at 17:40:16 Menelik Charles

    @Itachi,

    I have no issue with you other than to point out that you are not at all very well. seriously, unless you being on here is a cry for help, I would advise that walk away now…with at least the pretence of dignity, and seek out a therapy dealing with a range of issues from your father’s absence to an absence of racial self-respect.

    Go now, please, and good luck!


  813. Oh, right. I need mental help. That’s what you’re resorting to, huh? You’re a fool, Menelik.

    You’re not at all qualified to make such suggestions.


  814. I simply have my own personal taste and I voiced it.

    In a perfect, race less world, your preferences would be just that, preferences. However, this isn’t such a world. Preferences would not be based on any racialized underlying pretext. A preference is for such physical characteristics such as; short, tall, medium height, hefty, muscular, slender etc. Once you racialize your preference, it becomes about race. The ramifications of which have a negative, and in many instances, a deleterious effect on the group for which you profess not to be ‘attracted’ to as a whole. There is no veracity to the argument, “Are black women ugly”, that’s not the gist of this topic. Nor is it about people’s ‘preferences along racist lines as to why this may be so. It is about the societal effects that this type of thinking engenders, which can have deleterious effects on the affected groups, in this case black women.


  815. “No, I never tried to make it universal. I don’t know what is so hard to understand about the 1 in a million comment. I was speaking about my own experiences. It is very rare for me to find a black woman whom I find attractive. The 1 in a million thing was just a joke but as I said it is true that I rarely, if ever find a black woman attractive. That’s all I said. I didn’t bash black women.”

    Itachi, public speech must be judged in view of it’s historical context and implications.

    When a specific group that has been lambasted by racists as:

    1) Inferior
    2) Unintelligent
    3) Unattractive.

    Then, YOU take the time to come to a website, where this same group is hanging out and say… “Hey, I’m not being racist, but I gotta tell you, I TOTALLY agree with number three!”

    Then you cannot be surprised when people view your comments as a simple continuation of the previously stated racism.

    Think of the context. It’s just tasteless… like trying to collect debts at a funeral.


  816. Wow you really are pathetic. You cannot equate wanting to be a white man with a female wanting larger breasts(btw I’m quite blessed in this area so no I don’t desire larger breasts). The only want I have is to get back into shape for soccer, again this cannot be equated with wanting to change one’s racialized features. Wanting to change your race is the textbook definition of self-hate. Despite the mental masturbation and prose you are using it’s quite clear you are suffering from self hatred. Unfortunately, the more you reveal about yourself the more obvious the sources of your racial frustrations become. Please, resolve you daddy issues and begin your healing process. In the meantime if you find that 1 in a million black woman do not engage with her romantically. The last thing this world needs is black children inheriting daddy’s inferiority complex.

    I have nothing more to say. As far as I’m concerned you posts speak for themselves.


  817. Isn’t Menelik a psychologist?


  818. Witchsistah says,
    -It seems like in the 2000s, BM have just plain abandoned the whole idea of even fronting like they care about BW, abandoned even the front of giving a damn about BW or hiding their preferences for non-BW. BW are just a corral of backup bytches for them to keep just in case things with Becky Sue, Soon Yi, Padme or Lupe don’t work out.
    -Like I said, the dating arena for American BW regarding dating inside or outside the race is pretty even, six of one, half a dozen of the other. I remember my mother’s main refrain against me dating interracially was, “At least a BM’d marry you/consider you for marriage!” The message being, that a non-BM never would no matter how great a partner I was. Well, we all know the former is NO longer the case. And there is no racial group of men out there who are more loving and loyal to BW than another.
    -That’s why I said it’s best for BW to get in where they fit in. Forget about race when choosing a partner, especially if you’re trying to determine which GROUP would be more amenable to be partnered with BW. And forget about what BM think and feel about it. They’ve been showing us for decades what they think and feel about us.

    laromana says,
    Witchsistah, thanks for your EXCELLENT analysis of how ANTI-BW RACISM works/has worked in the way MOST BM in America treat/have treated BW. I strongly agree with you that BW need to ONLY be open to QUALITY men of ANY RACE who will treat them with LOVE and RESPECT.

    Itachi Uchiha says,
    I am first and foremost about looks. If I am not attracted to a woman, I will not date her. That doesn’t mean that I will date a woman simply because of her looks, but I disgress. The point is that I have my own ‘prerequisites’ and the one at the very top is appearance. Unfortunately most black women I’ve seen do not have the look I am attracted to.

    laromana says,
    How TYPICAL of an ANTI-BW BM to show up on a PRO-BW blog and attempt to DERAIL a topic that has NOTHING to do with BM to interject his IRRELEVANT PERSONAL VIEWS.
    Please GET OVER YOURSELF.
    Your ANTI-BW “PREFERENCES” DON’T MATTER to BW on this blog and we DON’T CARE TO HEAR ABOUT THEM.


  819. @Ichi(Alex)

    I am curious what your mom said to you about other people. Like, was your preference taught to you by someone close? It could be the people you around, including friends. Also, you never answered my other questions.

    I think this is why I feel self cautious when I receive a compliment from people. I’m very light with green eyes. I get exotic at times. And if someone says I look really pretty I say thank you, but in the back of my mind I never really accept it. Why? Because people may only be seeing I am pretty because of racist views. I really shouldn’t care about what someone thinks of my looks and the older I get the better I am at just liking me for me. But, is this a common feeling for any other ladies or even men?


  820. I think it was on this blog where MC (if i’m not mistaken) was saying white women are envious of black women. I personally do not think this is true, however, if black women were to be seen as the epitome of beauty it would be even harder for white women to be at the level of black women. (When I say black women I mean the ones who are very dark and natural hair). Because a white woman can tan but never have the glowing skin tone of a darker black woman. In fact, I think majority of the world would never measure up if the tables were turned. So, why should the black women be on a pedal stool? It’s easier having white women there.

    *Just a thought*


  821. laromana says,
    Based on SLAVERY and HISTORICAL ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE in American culture and media there are SOME WW who have used/are using their White privilege to mistreat BW and to ELEVATE their beauty status AT THE EXPENSE of BW’s beauty status.”

    jas0nburns, why is it so difficult for you to accept the KEY point that I made that SOME WW ARE ENVIOUS OF BW’S BEAUTY and have used/are using their White privilege to mistreat BW and to ELEVATE their beauty status AT THE EXPENSE of BW’s beauty status?
    My FIRST HAND, PERSONAL experiences in RACIST/ANTI-BW America have shown this to be a FACT on more than one occasion.

    My statement would DEFINITELY be FALSE if I had said ALL WW are envious of BW’s beauty but I DIDN’T SAY THAT.

    Do you BELIEVE it’s IMPOSSIBLE for SOME WW TO BE ENVIOUS OF BW’S BEAUTY? REALLY?!!


  822. @ laromana

    “Do you BELIEVE it’s IMPOSSIBLE for SOME WW TO BE ENVIOUS OF BW’S BEAUTY? REALLY?!!”

    I already told you…

    “I don’t have a problem admitting that whites could be envious of blacks. I just don’t see the significance.”

    What I’m saying is yeah, of course any individual could be envious of any other individual. Black women are every bit as attractive as their white counterparts so why not? I personally don’t feel envious of others. maybe on an individual level in a mild way but group envy doesn’t mean anything to me. (I kind of envy people in some European countries who get really long paid vacations though.)

    As a group however I don’t see the role envy plays in institutional racism. I don’t see it as a root cause for the lack of love black women get in the media. Again, I am open to persuasion if anyone could actually provide some example besides Menelik’s lunatic fringe videos.

    Show me the connection and If it’s valid I will reverse my position in an instant. I would like to take your word but…

    also lay off the caps your making me nervous ;)


  823. Yes King, I figured the only issue was insensitivity. I’ve known that. That however means nothing. I was completely respectful and only said how I felt. I didn’t go on a tirade about how black women are horrible or whatever else. I understand how even the slightest cut can hurt, but that doesn’t justify the countless attacks I’ve been subject to. I didn’t come here to attack black women. The title intrigued me, so I read many of the comments until I was finally prompted to post something. King, ‘you’re being mean’

    Herneith. The topic is “are black women ugly, or is it racism that makes them seem so? Given that the title describes the topic perfectly, why can’t someone voice why they themselves aren’t attracted to black women in a respectful manner? Without differing opinion how can it be a debate?

    Y.

    Wanting to have features that are prominent in other groups of people is just the same as wanting to have bigger breasts or anything else. It is the same, logically.

    And for the record, I have no ‘daddy’ issues. I may have when I was younger, but it really does not bother me anymore.

    I highly doubt Menekil is a psychologist. Has he provided any proof? His posts certainly suggest the opposite in my opinion.

    Mei Ly, race has never really been a topic of discussion at our home. My mom has NEVER mentioned race to me.

    I believe your preference is environmental. I didn’t grow up around black girls. I grew up primarily around hispanic and armenian girls, i.e lighter skinned girls with what I would consider nicer features. That is likely why I’ve never found the general population of black women attractive.


  824. @Ichi
    It can’t be all environment. I’ve known Korean guys who grew up around blacks and hardly asian girls but love asian women. Perhaps you should expand and get around different kinds of people, not to date but to see beauty in all forms.

    And you still haven’t answered all of my questions. :/

    Also, do you feel “good” about yourself telling black women that you don’t find them attractive?


  825. Oops…I just realized it’s Itachi not Ichi. lol.


  826. Alex/Itachi Uchiha,

    First of all, I never said I wasn’t attracted to a whole race. I was careful with the wording. The word ‘general’ does not imply ‘all’.

    You didn’t say you were never attracted to a black woman, I get that.

    But saying you are not generally attracted to women of a certain race is, honestly, quite similar (in the absurdity level) as saying “I am straight, but I am generally not attracted to women”. I mean, wait… WTF?

    Here’s the thing- race is not a biological fact. You can say, perhaps, you are generally not attracted to certain features, but not that you are not generally attracted to women of a certain race. Because if it’s really, really (really, really) not into certain features and NOT race per se, you would not state it the way you did. I am not generally attracted to blond men. Does that mean I am not attracted to whites?

    But like King said, even if you make it about features only, it’s not that simple. Because if you chose to list dark skin or other features “typically” found in black women it would be the same as saying you generally don’t prefer a certain race.

    What is sad to notice that these features are the ones you share (if it;s you on the gravatar). So it’s logical for people here to ask you what you find so wrong with features you share? Sure, you may say you are ok with the way you look, but you did make more than clear you think “white” features are somehow “better” (at least that’s the vibe I’m getting). And like Y said, no, it’s not the same as wishing to be a little thinner or to have a smaller nose.

    No, I never tried to make it universal. I don’t know what is so hard to understand about the 1 in a million comment. I was speaking about my own experiences.

    Maybe you didn’t try to make it universal… But it sure seemed so. You jumped from “I don’t generally find black women attractive” (your personal opinion) straight to “it’s rare to find an attractive black woman” (universal truth).

    If you didn’t want to make it universal then stick to your opinion. I know black women here (or anywhere for that matter) don’t care about your view on them, but it’s offensive/disrespectful to try to pass it as an universal truth.

    The 1 in a million thing was just a joke but as I said it is true that I rarely, if ever find a black woman attractive. That’s all I said. I didn’t bash black women.

    You didn’t bash black women… But one wonders, if you don’t find them attractive, why are you here? (In this thread, I mean). Abagond made some post about white women. Megan Fox, Kim Kardashian, take your pick. You DON’T have to appreciate one group of women by talking how you are not attracted to another group (not that appreciating beauty of a group is possible… only individuals).

    This post is titled: “are black women ugly or is that racism that makes them seem so”? Some men who posted here said that no, they don’t think black women are unattractive. You seem to disagree- you don’t find black women attractive, so maybe this is a good place to state your opinion on the topic: are they not attractive, or is that racism that makes them seem so?

    I am first and foremost about looks. If I am not attracted to a woman, I will not date her.

    Yes… You, and most of the men on the planet. <- deliberate generalization.

    What if I say I found black women attractive, but only the mixed ones? Wouldn’t that rub you the wrong way anyway?

    Any racial preference that excludes most of the people of a particular race rubs me the wrong way.

    And besides, they’re not really black anyway. They’re mixed. What society considers them to be is irrelevant, the fact is that they’re mixed.

    Actually, I somewhat agree with this. I (think) I understand the way racial identity is shaped in the US, but to me, a person with one white parent is mixed. (That’s my first thought about said person). However, I respect the way people identify themselves, so I’d never say to a person identifying as black- oh no, but you are not really black, you are mixed. They sure know better what their race is then I do.

    Which brings us to:

    Obama calls himself black and everybody else calls him black, that’s fine. The fact is that he isn’t really ‘black’, he’s black and white.

    It doesn’t really work that way. Racial (and other) identities are built base don how we see ourselves AND how others see us. Obama sees himself as black. Others see him as black. He is black. The fact he has a white mother is irrelevant to his racial identity. That doesn’t mean another person who has one black and one white parent identify as mixed or even (!!!) white. <- Obama could identify as white, but the problem is not that he "isn't" white, but the fact people don't see him and acknowledge him as that.

    But other than that, yes, I agree mixed people can identify any way they want. Personally, I see Obama as mixed because it's difficult for me to see a person with one white parent as black. But Obama and I don't share the same culture.


  827. Just now I said

    “I personally don’t feel envious of others. maybe on an individual level in a mild way but group envy doesn’t mean anything to me. ”

    I just realized that’s not actually true. I do envy the way many of the black men I know are able to form an instant bond despite not knowing one another personally. I know that sounds like I’m being analytical of “the other” but it is a form of group envy I experience. And I know it may not even be real.


  828. Mei,

    I just take a compliment at face value. Race doesn’t enter my mind at all. Unless someone says *adjective* light girl or something like that.

    Also, I agree. I really do not think that white/mixed girls are jealous of black women. Nor do I think any woman is jealous of a race as a whole. I think, if a woman is jealous at all, it is against attractive women period.


  829. “But like King said, even if you make it about features only, it’s not that simple. Because if you chose to list dark skin or other features “typically” found in black women it would be the same as saying you generally don’t prefer a certain race.”

    If it’s all about features, it may even be difficult to discern which features belong exclusively to which “race.”

    Taraji Henson (Black)
    http://www.eurweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/taraji_p_henson2010-white-blouse-med-big.jpg

    Joanna Bacalso (Asian)
    http://s11.bdbphotos.com/images/orig/c/a/caipy3dlw8hpwlhy.jpg


  830. White women are not envious of black women as whole. Neither are black women envious of white women as a whole (no people, they are not, no matter how much you try to force them to be). They might be envious of specific women, however. I thought this was obvious: everything doesn’t have to do with race.


  831. Also, please note I don’t ridicule Alex/Itachi Uchiha’s preference. If there were not many black girls while he was growing up, it might be more “natural” (in lack of a better word) for him to be attracted to non-black women. These are the women he is familiar with, and the women he grew up with. I get it. There’s nothing wrong with that. Whites who grew up in non-white neighborhoods sometimes tend to develop preference for non-whites.

    So his preferences are not something that he should be ashamed of.

    However, what he thinks/finds attractive is hardly the topic here. The topic is: are black women ugly* or does racism make them seems so, and I’d really like him to answer this.

    * Not that the title itself is a good one…

    Also, the problem is that he went the wrong way: he tried to state his preference for non-black women by saying that he’s not attracted to black women.


  832. Natasha W

    White women are not envious of black women as whole. Neither are black women envious of white women as a whole (no people, they are not, no matter how much you try to force them to be). They might be envious of specific women, however. I thought this was obvious: everything doesn’t have to do with race

    I must admit to being a bit surprised at some of the comments being passed by regular posters here but I just couldn’t let this one slide.

    Natasha, if anyone is forcing anything on anyone then its this daily, global ideology of white supremacy and all its ramifications. The topic of this thread being just one.

    And yes everything, I am afraid does have a race dimension to it. Something a lot of racially unaware white people tend to want to deny stressing. Hence the subject of “whiteness”

    Of course there are other dimensions here too. But this, I feel as a Black person, is a very important one.

    But hey, I am sure others would be keen to stress theirs…


  833. King,

    If it’s all about features, it may even be difficult to discern which features belong exclusively to which “race.”

    Yes, well, that’s the point (among other things). Since there’s no such thing as a biological race, people of different races can share the same features. That’s one of the reasons why saying “I am (not) attracted to X race” doesn’t make sense. Saying, “I like (wo)men with high cheekbones” is another matter.

    Now, it’s all god when it’s cheekbones we’re talking about, but what if a man says he prefers women with blue eyes and light skin? Isn’t that code for “white”?

    Maybe I just don’t understand how it goes. Maybe it’s because I’m from another culture, and maybe because my preferences are somewhat “in the middle”, so men of all races can fit them. :D


  834. Kwamla,

    But at the end of the day, everything DOESN’T have to be about race, now does it? (It’s not the same as saying “everything is racist”… Because usually, everything is. :D (joke, joke!) )

    There are many white women who are jealous of black women (and vice versa). There are many who are not. T