An Asian fetish, also known as yellow fever, is where a man mainly goes for East Asian women. For East Asian men this is considered to be natural and therefore it is not a fetish. But for white American men it is seen as an unnatural desire and therefore is a fetish.
In America by far the most common sort of mixed-race marriage is between white men and Asian women. So it seems like white men have a thing for Asian women.
But it is more than just the numbers or even all the war brides and mail-order brides: Asian women report that some white men do have this strange hang-up on them: these men seem to date mainly Asian women, stereotype them by saying that Asian women are “exotic”, “hot” and are much more willing to serve and please their men. Some of these men even go so far as to learn all things Asian. It all comes off as kind of creepy.
Some argue that there is no such thing as an Asian fetish. Here are the three arguments I have heard:
- White women paint it as a fetish to shame white men out of dating Asian women. Because only Asian women present a serious threat to white women. After all, when black men or Jewish men go after blondes, no one calls that a “blonde fetish”. Or when a white woman will date only black men, no one calls that a “black fetish”.
- Asian women are naturally more desirable than white or black women. Steve Sailer argues that they look more womanly because they have less muscle by weight than either white women or black women.
- Asian women are more open to dating outside their race than other women in America. A speed dating study done by Columbia University showed that it is women, not men, who make dating decisions based on race. Men are dogs and will go for any pretty woman regardless of race. Given that, many white men will naturally wind up with Asian women.
Asian women in America, much more so than black, white or Latina women, are way more likely grow up in a place where most males do not belong to their race, where most are in fact white. It is also more acceptable for Asian women and white men to marry each other than for either to marry black or Latino.
Asian men get screwed in this because white women are not equally open about dating outside their race. Also white stereotypes of Asian men as nerdy and unmanly do not help.
Samhita at Feministing put it well, speaking for many Asian women:
But for the rest of us, that are sick and tired of white men being into us because we are “exotic,” well this shit is just tired. I am not your fetish, I am not your fantasy and, yeah, I might be good in bed, but my race is not why.
See also:
Many East Asian women in the U.S. appear to share a mutual fetish for white men!
I think a lot of it has to do with more than two people accidentally falling in love. I think many East Asian women (and non-black minorities, across the board) see having a white mate as a way to “assimilate”. This can be proven by the quality of white mates that many partner with. I’ve seen attractive, successful East Asian women with decidedly unattractive, bummy white men. You do the math.
Interracial relationships in the U.S. appear to be seen as more acceptable as long as no black person is in the picture. Yay or nay?
I think the reason being for the so called asian fetish its bcuz that asian usually fit in with white people more than black people fit in with them and if they so called act black they are not criticize like if a white female where to do it so basically they can fit in with any group
Lynette: So why does your friend want to find a White mate? Did she give reasons?
You wrote the article as an Asian fetish by White man, but the picture has the young Asian woman appearing to be the one with the fetish. An Asian woman wanting a White man just because he is white is one thing, but one would really have to be sick to have a poster of Rush Limbaugh, LOL.
OK, you got the picture from the Onion. Got it, LOL.
Now it is a different picture.
I was unhappy with that picture, partly because it did not send a clear message like you pointed out.
People like what they like, there are some women who love Nigerian men, would you say they have a fetish to them to?. Asian women are very beautiful and if white men like them good. God bless them. Thank God that we live in a time, that we can marry who we really like.
Valerie i think you missed the point, we are not trying to prescribe whom should marry whom, we are simply discussing why the situation is scewed in a certain way.
we are not approving or disapproving.
Wow.
I see whites aren’t the only who play the “you’re not really black” card on black who they come to accept on an individual basis.
Yeah, the whole idea of assimilation is the main catalyst behind the high percentage of white/Asian marriages and relationships.
Dating in general is and has always been based on stereotypes and generalizations . it’s about social power and image adding to your own social power by getting with the right person to boost your social status. at this moment Asian woman are enjoying being in demand and adding to their power, and that power comes from white males.
Asian women are no more (intrinsically) beautiful than BW (or ANY other race of women). They are just considered MORE ACCEPTABLE by many WM/NON-BM who may also happen to be ANTI-BW RACISTS.
i got a buddy – he prefers asian women cause they are smaller, thin – he likes em SKINNY and have less body hair.
I point out he is narrowing his chances of finding happiness by fixating on certain physical attributes – but he says he wants what he wants…
I never limited my preferences like that – I like a main that makes me feel good – happy – safe – makes me laugh…those are more important and are in no way limited by race
Hi Abagond!
I’ve been reading your blog for a while.
I would never comment because I silently agreed with many of the people who would regularly comment on your posts!
This time however, I would like to voice my opinion.
I am Canadian citizen BUT my mother is Cameroonian and my father Zairian (Congolese) from the now Democratic Republic of Congo. I can very much relate to Lynette and to your post.
My first language is French because of colonization in many parts of Africa, Portuguese, more commonly French or English are our official languages. It makes English only my second language. I’ve lived in France and Canada most of my life…and it was only only coming to L.A. for my studies that I’ve experienced this weird BUT subtle “positive” racist remarks.
I wasn’t aware but I have a different kind of accent depending on whom I talk with. Some think it French or British or slightly Canadian or all mixed up. I’ve had white men come up to me more BECAUSE I’m supposedly not REALLY black??? What?
Due to my accent, my “cleaner” demeanor, my natural curled afro and my “nice” clothes and me speaking French. I am “supposedly” not really black..I am what they call a BETTER black, an African girl with the cutest and sweetest face.
White men and even some Asian ones ask me where they can meet the less ghetto black girls. they think African girls from other countries are far better and less black.
My Asian friend…always teases me about me not being ghetto and having a weird accent and constantly tells his friends that I speak French and that I lived in France and that I’m Canadian that my hair is all real…
Some would say I should be flattered but…it doesn’t make feel good that all my sisters and brothers are stereotyped and put in such a bad light.
He’s a good person BUT he is also very narrow-minded about blacks. I’m actually his FIRST “black” friend who is “not so black”. For him whites and Hispanics are his preferred choices for finding a mate.
Especially as a black girl I feel that black women are put at the bottom and that White and Asian women are put on a pedestal due to their fair/porcelain skin, small/petite features and them being apparently more quiet, sweeter, more feminine and more attractive.
Also, the reason why I think Asian women are VERY much so in demand (wow, it sounds very objectifying..sorry) is because a white man being the status of proper, more educated, better looking and having more power on this and influence than any other human being…. is that an Asian woman besides the small, almond eyes, being almost hairless and being petite and the culture, She is the closest to a white woman’s appearance.
Also I’ve been told like you said that due to their very close-knit family upbringing and culture oriented environment. They know their place. As woman a man comes first, his needs should be satisfied because he’s supposed to be the ultimate breadwinner. She can’t complain and should look pretty and have the supper and house clean when he comes home tired from fighting and working to death for his family. The man is king, he can do no wrong.
I also know an Asian girl who again is very nice says that she prefers White men because they’re more assertive, attractive and manly. They’re more romantic and don’t fear being direct and sexy. In their culture man COMPLETELY overlook making the woman feel..alive. They don’t celebrate anniversaries, kiss in public or even hold hands. They don’t send flowers or leave sweet little notes or go out on dates…so I could see why she feels the way she does.
And it’s true like one said…that MANY, MANY (not all ) Asian women go out of their way to meet and marry White men. It’s marrying up and to White men it’s like tasting something fresh, “exotic” and different without the whole package being something that society would deem “out” of the norm.
Anyway, that’s what I have to say!
of course, a quote from my favourite commenter /snark
mynameismyname Says:
Mon 25 May 2009 at 19:28:22
Many East Asian women in the U.S. appear to share a mutual fetish for white men!
…
Interracial relationships in the U.S. appear to be seen as more acceptable as long as no black person is in the picture. Yay or nay?
——
Ever heard of oppression olympics? always ready to dismiss the any difficulties any non-black POC may experience?
And that statement of East Asian women having a fetish for white men is beyond disgusting.
in demand by who? white men?? what black woman on gods green earth gives a damn about what a lame ass white man wants??
alot of people look at white mens asian fetish as another side of their child pornography fetish and the white mans love of little boys because asian women have no curves.
Hmm, I don’t think it’s that East Asian women are any more attractive than say Latina’s or Afro American women, but if its to be said that stereotypes (whether positive or negative) about a person’s group can determine whether they’ll be approached or not by members of other groups, then asian women definitely have some positive stereotypes (though personally I don’t see good in any stereotypes be they positive or negative) in their favor. These “positives” include being considered intelligent ( u know the model minority bullshit), petite, ultra feminine, great in bed, (a new one I’ve heard lmao) hairless, and not to mention open to any breathing white guy. All of which are bullshit keep in mind.
Stereotypes for Latinas include all being hot (God help the less attractive ones), fiery tempered, good in bed, though unfortunately almost always having litters of kids (I can’t believe that people actually believe shit like this).
Black women don’t have it any better we’re considered loud, rude, hell even before we even open our mouths, masculine, ,non sexual (or down right whores) and ball busting, though “positively” were considered to be wild in bed (lets not forget that all of us don’t give non-black men the time of day because we are only attracted black men).
Now ALL of this is complete nonsense, to the common sense welding person that understands people are individuals and you can’t force them all into these neat little roles you think they should have because they are Afro American, Hispanic or Asian. But unfortunately for the idiot that lives by stereotyping people (yea I said idiot), dating wise, more likely than not they aren’t even going to consider afro american or latina women, their going to head straight for that East asian female because they feel they are getting their best bet. Hell and if they are color conscious and they are concerned about how their future children will look, one thing they can bet on and that is its a strong probability they won’t be “too dark” (which is something they have to worry about if they have a child with afro american or latina woman, hell even with middle eastern or south asian woman).
Now what I hate more than anything is someone not even taking the chance to get to know me and being reduced to a fucking stereotype. I’ve concluded that I could care less what some ignorant fools think about women like me, from traveling I KNOW that all types of men are attracted to black women and WILL consider dating us, and those that don’t their loss. Now I feel like Zora Neal Hurston summed my feelings up *almost* perfectly in this quote “Sometimes, I feel discriminated against, but it does not make me angry. It merely astonishes me. How can any deny themselves the pleasure of my company? It is beyond me.”
#20 jasmine Says:
asian women have no curves
gee Abagond, you have some really open minded people here on your blog – NOT!
Therese,
Would you happen to be a poster from Racialicious?
It’s interesting, even though this post about whites and an “Asian fetish”, black Americans STILL come up quite often. Very interesting and it confirms what I’ve always known.
24. mynameismyname Says:
It’s interesting, even though this post about whites and an “Asian fetish”, black Americans STILL come up quite often. Very interesting and it confirms what I’ve always known.
Black Americans came up because YOU bought them up… so what is it that confirms what you’ve always known? that there are only white and black people on earth and the rest are non-existent?
maybe you should read think of race in america in terms of black and white @ stuff white people do
and no, I’ve never posted on Racialicious.
I see whites aren’t the only who play the “you’re not really black” card on black who they come to accept on an individual basis.
In social psychology they call that sub typing lol. They make exceptions for an individual while still holding on to certain stereotypes about a group that individual belongs too.
just me said:
Dating in general is and has always been based on stereotypes and generalizations . it’s about social power and image adding to your own social power by getting with the right person to boost your social status. at this moment Asian woman are enjoying being in demand and adding to their power, and that power comes from white males.
You said it perfectly that is what stereotypes are really for. This is reinforced mainly by institutional racism.
14 – just me Says:
at this moment Asian woman are enjoying being in demandand adding to their power, and that power comes from white males.
*jaw drops*
you people have GOT TO BE kidding right? how on earth do you get more *power* by being objectified and classed as less than human or non human?
some of the comments here make “east asian women” sound like the latest ipod feature.
Lynette said:
She often says, “Well, Lynette you are not really Black.” I have to correct her often. I don’t understand why she feels I am different from other Black Americans.
She likes you and wants to be your friend and yet is somehow trying to square that with her racism against blacks.
Dani,
You been paying attention in your Socialogy class! It is called subtyping! LOL. I mentioned the famous example of this from Spike Lee’s “Do The Right Thing” in the comments under Abagond’s post on why so few white men marry black women.
Therese,
Stop paying naive. You know and I know that the western world doesn’t have the same problem with other so-called minorities that they do with blacks. Anything but black. You know that. That’s what I’ve been implying all along. This whole conversation proves it.
Dani,
You been paying attention in your Socialogy class! It is called subtyping! LOL. I mentioned the famous example of this from Spike Lee’s “Do The Right Thing” in the comments under Abagond’s post on why so few white men marry black women.
LMAO I know right? I’m just trying to give her word for that because it seems people do these things alot. Make you the exception while still keeping their stereotype about your race, gender, culture etc. the same. I found out what the word is for this situation now so I’m spreading to everyone lol.
Stop paying naive. You know and I know that the western world doesn’t have the same problem with other so-called minorities that they do with blacks. Anything but black. You know that. That’s what I’ve been implying all along. This whole conversation proves it.
co-sign. It’s very true. I just think Lynette’s friend caught on to another way to assimilate with white folks and that’s to hate Blacks lol. Not all Asians are content with this model minority stereotype. Here’s an article I read that was very interesting. He argues against it and thinks it hurts Asians more than it helps. He talks about everything that effects them and its good read.
Here’s the link http://jalanjournal.org/2008/09/asians-against-white-supremacy/
some of the comments here make “east asian women” sound like the latest ipod feature.
They are the latest ipod feature. There is an application on the iphone that supports this post on Asian fetish. I’m so serious!
I agree with you Jasmine! As one white female co worker said to me about Asian women “flat in the front, flat in the back. If they cut their hair you can’t tell the man from the woman”.
you people are so narrow minded and are a bunch of disgusting bigots, I only come back here because I find Abagond’s writings interesting (don’t agree to all he says well duh) and something that is NOT about black vs. white ALWAYS becomes that, completely making other coloured peoples invisible.
@yolanda & jasmine:
Asian women have no curves, huh? You haven’t met all Asian women to make baseless assumptions like that…maybe the ones you’ve seen…perhaps.
Yeah, L.T.,
Many East Asian women have curves. They come in a variety of shapes like any other ethnicity of women.
Dani:
That was a great link (the one about anti-Asian racism). Thanks. And thanks for telling us about subtyping. I have noticed that too but did not know it had a name.
Dani is right about the Asian fetish iPhone app:
http://www.racialicious.com/2009/04/08/fetish-goes-high-tech-the-cute-asian-girls-iphone-app/
There is also a school of thought that the Asian fetish is just this side of the law of pedophilia – that what white men like in Asian women is how they are like young boys. A particularly mean article that expresses this idea appeared in Salon in 1998 called “Tiny, flat-chested and hairless!”, written (surprise) by a white woman:
http://www.salon.com/col/weav/1998/05/nc_06weav2.html
There are Asian women with curves, of course, but in general they seem to have way fewer curves than black women or even white women. So while Steve Sailer tries to be “scientific” and “objective” about interracial beauty, and while what he says is interesting to read, he is letting his own taste in women come through.
wow…some of the comments about east asian women are kinda nasty. there’s no need to insult a whole group of people now.
if you don’t like black women being stereotyped don’t do it to other people either.
Monica, thank you!
Aba,
What nationalities of East Asian women have you been most exposed to? I’m just curious.
Good point. Mainly Chinese and Korean.
@Monica:
Amen!
And @abagond:
Regarding the Asian women seemingly lack curves thing, you mentioned you’re exposed to Chinese and Korean (East Asians). When most people think about Asians, which Asians come to mind? Chinese, Japanese, and Korea, of course. They seem to forget that Asians are diverse. What about SoutheastE Asian women? Namely Thai, Filipino, Viet, etc. Don’t forget the South Asians. TThe women from those backgrounds appear differently than the so-called typical Asians you see.
I know about South-east Asians but they are nowhere near as common in New York as Chinese and Koreans. Mynameismyname was asking about the ones I am most exposed to.
South Asians do not fall under “Asian fetish” as far as I understand it.
I once knew a white guy from Canada who was REALLY looking forward to going to India. When I asked why, he said, “The women are SO beautiful! They kinda hide themselves, but man!” Then he literally licked his lips. When I told him he was being both a racist and a sexist ass, he just laughed. But not as fully as he usually did.
Regarding Abagond’s point in a comment on how the “Asian fetish is [sometimes?] just this side of the law of pedophilia”:
“In Palo Alto, a man is on trial for the brutal sexual assault of an Asian American high school student in October 2007. The motive? According to prosecutors, a seriously dangerous sexual fetish for underage Asian girls.”
@ Angry Asian Man
To Abagond:
There is also a school of thought that the Asian fetish is just this side of the law of pedophilia – that what white men like in Asian women
Yeah I’ve heard that, I wonder where those people would categorize the roughly 1 billion east Asian men on the planet..?
South Asians do not fall under “Asian fetish” as far as I understand it.
I think that is correct although one of the people you quoted Samhita at Feministing is of South Asian descent.
To Abagond and L.T.
Regarding the Asian women seemingly lack curves thing, you mentioned you’re exposed to Chinese and Korean (East Asians). When most people think about Asians, which Asians come to mind? Chinese, Japanese, and Korea, of course. They seem to forget that Asians are diverse. What about SoutheastE Asian women? Namely Thai, Filipino, Viet, etc. Don’t forget the South Asians.
As you go South in Asia, generally, as with Europe (and then the Middle East and Africa), the women tend to get curvier. There are also seem to be different standards for beauty in Asia and the US.
An Asian woman who would be considered curvy in the US might be considered fat in Asia although I think that’s changing.
Also recognized that not long ago in China, Taiwan, and Korea the average caloric intake was substantially less than the US, producing people that were smaller in stature and build. I’ve noticed that the younger generations, both for men and women tend to be taller, have broader shoulders, and are more “filled out” so to speak.
To Mynameismyname and Therese:
Mynameismyname said:
Many East Asian women in the U.S. appear to share a mutual fetish for white men!
Therese said:
And that statement of East Asian women having a fetish for white men is beyond disgusting.
Well Therese, I wouldn’t go so far as to say Asian women in the US (as Mynameismyname specified..) “fetish” but there does seem to be a mutual interest among white men and Asian women. Also I know of quite a few Asian women who will date only white men. All I can say is that it takes two to tango.
As for Asian women in Japan, China, Taiwan, and the Philippines, it’s a known issue among whites guy who have lived in these countries that there are women who fetishize white guys. Call it disgusting if you want but it’s quite real.
you people are so narrow minded and are a bunch of disgusting bigots, I only come back here because I find Abagond’s writings interesting (don’t agree to all he says well duh) and something that is NOT about black vs. white ALWAYS becomes that, completely making other coloured peoples invisible.
What are you talking about? It was only two people in this post that said something stereotypical about East Asian women. You need to stop being so naive on how Asian women are treated. They are the most fetishized mainstream group of women that comes off creepy and disgusting. I mean damn how crazy is it that the damn Asian Bride pop ups come up on the internet? or how they are an ipod feature? Not all Asian women are happy about this.
To macon d:
Regarding Abagond’s point in a comment on how the “Asian fetish is [sometimes?] just this side of the law of pedophilia”:
“In Palo Alto, a man is on trial for the brutal sexual assault of an Asian American high school student in October 2007. The motive? According to prosecutors, a seriously dangerous sexual fetish for underage Asian girls.”
@ Angry Asian Man
Well there’s one difference..abagond was discussing white men who had Asian fetishes.. the perpetrator in the case you linked, Todd Burpee, is black:
http://www.examiner.com/printa-1026563~Palo_Alto_rape_suspect_arrested.html?cid=tool-print-top
Fetishists can come in all races.
We live in a [worldwide] society divided by–among other things & most importantly–race & racial taboos. Of course racial fetishes are going to dominate many sexual relationships. But this is just how these relationships MAY begin not what they eventually grow into. So what! Some white women may fetishize black/brown/yellow men, Some black/brown men may fetishize brown/white/yellow women, Some black/brown/red/yellow women may fetishize white, etc. men. Whatever. Growing & maintaining a relationship is complex & cannot be accomplished solely on fetishization[?].
I have many sexual fantasies, but they alone won’t lead me to a healthy & fully rounded relationship. Just really satisfying fantasy sex…uh, if I’m lucky.
51. dani Says:
“You need to stop being so naive on how Asian women are treated.”
I am not ignorant to how Asian women are treated, I’m just saying that it’s disgusting… except people don’t even seem to be bothered by this injustice.
“It was only two people in this post”
01. mynameismyname reckons that Asian women also fetishize white men *gags* (post #01)
02. Lynette agrees with her/him (post #02)
03. just me reckons its a power to be fetishized (WTF ???) (post #14)
04. jasmine reckons Asian women look like little boys (post #20)
05. Yolanda also thinks Asian women have no curves (WTF ???) (post #32)
so I’ve just counted FIVE – ok I admit, like most other people I also react more strongly to negativity and five is still a minority of the posters on this topic.
I just think it’s a bit rich and hypocritical that with black women being made the “ultimate unwoman” throughout history, some others seem to think it’s alright to make asian women another “ultimate unwoman” (being seen as a little boy, a child is NOT flattering… but then, maybe you’re from a different planet where kids rule)
I have noted my pity for Megan Fox having her ethnicity downsized, mynameismyname has yet to give me the same hell as s/he did when I said the EXACT SAME thing about Rosario Dawson.
If s/he doesn’t then I will know that s/he is prejudiced and biased against Indigenous peoples, Hispanic, Asian, Middle Eastern peoples and everybody else who is not black. Doing another wrong does not right other wrongs.
I will always advocate the integrity and beauty of black women/men and I will do the same for others. I will call out when it sounds like others are partaking in Oppression Olympics.
Hi Lynette, I am sure that some of the attraction is mutual – what I took offense to was that some of the comments implied (to me) that Asian women can’t think for themselves and that white men are the best or something odd like that…
my comment was a general statement, that could apply to anyone of any race. however this post is about asian woman, and so it applies to that group. do i personally believe that it benefits anyone to be fetishized, no. do i believe some people use their”otherness” to get ahead, yes. you can find those people in every group.
Thank you Lynette and just me for your explanations, I was probably feeling a bit over-reactive.
Therese: I think Mynameismyname told you he is a he. Please do not refer to him as s/he. If you suspect that he is in fact a woman, then just say it, but if you do please support your suspicion with reasons. Otherwise I will think you are just trying to insult him and I will delete your comments.
Abagond – how am I insulting him by not knowing if he’s a woman or not? I honestly did not know… he wouldn’t answer any questions I ask him in a clear manner. But from now on as I know that he’s a he, I will refer to him as so.
I’ve indicated my total cluelessness regarding anything about mynameismyname physical existence in your post Half White, Half Asian in comment #23 where lifeisannoying called me asinine for being curious about what mynameismyname looks like.
Seriously, you have some pretty unfriendly commenters with no senses of humour.
It’s hard to guess which some of your commenters are male or female as many use gender neutral names.
which is funny /snark/ because I was responding to comment #15 by lifeisannoying for saying “adding my race onto the description will narrow the serch.”… so this person whom I have no idea to what gender they may be due to the gender neutral name, puts out this suggestion… I agree to it and then I get called asinine WTF ???
I just don’t want to assume that they are male or female or this or that as others have assumed that I am WHITE and/or BLACK of which I am neither.
That is fine. I did not think of it that way – that there is no way of knowing from his name.
I am sorry for my strings of posts though… please combine them if it will make your comments section neater *embarrassed* I’m getting a bit too used to sites where I can edit my own comments lol
Therese Says:
“I just think it’s a bit rich and hypocritical that with black women being made the “ultimate unwoman” throughout history, some others seem to think it’s alright to make asian women another “ultimate unwoman” (being seen as a little boy, a child is NOT flattering… but then, maybe you’re from a different planet where kids rule)
I have noted my pity for Megan Fox having her ethnicity downsized, mynameismyname has yet to give me the same hell as s/he did when I said the EXACT SAME thing about Rosario Dawson.
If s/he doesn’t then I will know that s/he is prejudiced and biased against Indigenous peoples, Hispanic, Asian, Middle Eastern peoples and everybody else who is not black. Doing another wrong does not right other wrongs.
I will always advocate the integrity and beauty of black women/men and I will do the same for others. I will call out when it sounds like others are partaking in Oppression Olympics.”
@Therese:
Hi! I agree with everything you mentioned in your post. I find it ironic it’s not okay to demean a group of people, and, yet, it’s considered okay to say something disparaging of another group?
If it is wrong to stereotype black women then clearly it is wrong to stereotype Asian women. But I am not going to delete comments simply because they are racist, especially not when the subject has to do with race, like here.
Therese: I combined your comments into one, as I did the other day.
@abagond:
With all due respect, I made no mention that racist comments should be deleted. Actually, it’s a good thing as others can see for themselves how ignorant and hypocritical these comments may be.
There must be waaaaay… many Asian men and White women who are single until the day they die.
Unless Asian women and White men are waaaay… greater in number than their opposite sex counterpart.
If only White women can be more open to dating Asian men, than they won’t have to worry about competing with Asian women so much.
So the conclusion is:
- White women painted “Asian Fetish” towards white men, to deter them from dating Asian women.
- White men painted “Asian Nerd” towards Asian men to deter asian women from dating men of their own race.
- Asian men and White women need to join forces to takeback their men and women.
Lynette: It sounds like your Filipino friend have a huge chip on her shoulder (not to mention being supremely immature) for being Asian. She cursed her luck the day she was born as an Asian.
She wishfully think that she’s white and having white friends (and boyfriend) is one way she thinks she can “Whiteup”. So no surprise she’s in her fantasy land hoping that you’re a white person.
As an Asian woman, I have to say that I’ve been approached numerous times by WMs. And personally, the things I’ve been told by some of them would’ve warranted a slap in the face. It’s disgusting.
well i’m a white male and i’ve dated a chinese girl at my college, personally i find asian girls mroe attractive simopky becauuse they tend to be very smart, slender, and overall nicer. I’m not saying they are more beautiful, jsut in my opinion. I’m sick of the trailer trash white girls we get in my hometown though, who think they are too good for anyone. My girlfriend is beautiful and damn near a genius, and white girls tlak crap about her all the time about how she doesn’;t have huge boobs or whatever, but let me tell you something I would rather have a slnder caring girl then a big fat bitchy one, lol sorry that was kinda blunt but i hate it when people get down on her cuz she doens’t have huge boobs so fuck those girls who say that
@ L.T.
Some people are just tactless idiots. I find myself astonished by the number of white guys who just blurt out stuff that is either racist, sexist, or just plain stupid. I just hope people are sensible enough to realize that these people are just morons an no representative of the rest of us.
@Benjamin
I do understand that some people simply don’t realize what they’re saying comes off as rude and vulgar, but if I get asked one more time if my female part is slanted, I’m going to haul off and deck someone.
When white woman date white man, do they have a white fetish? When black people date black people do they have a black fetish? So why do one race person has an other race fetish when he or she dates another race person? how about red hear partners, frecled partners, short, long etc. People who tell other people have a race fetish generalise and just show they are very limited in their observations.
It’s just some guys like the features of Asian chicks — jeeze, everyone should stop making such a big deal.
I know so many guys that are into blondes, and if you really questioned them, you could probably identify a specific ethnic heritage that especially turns them on (Scandinavian, Anglos-Saxon, etc.). Nobody has a problem with this.
However, if a guy is attracted to people of Asian descent, he gets crucified…
@Cat/i have heard that argument, and what gives the listener the rub is that if you want short, slender, youthful face and long hair, well guess what you can find women in all races that fit that description. you want traditional, soft spoken again that can be found in all races.
personally when i hear people speak the “i only date x”, it is usually a clue that the person has not been properly socialized.
It is also more acceptable for Asian women and white men to marry each other than for either to marry black or Latino
Why is marrying a white man more acceptable? White men are nothing special. Asian men are way hotter than white men. White men created the nerd stereotype along with alot of other Asian male stereotypes to draw all Asian women to them. It seems like white men have brainwashed some Asians into believing that marrying a white man is better than marrying another minority. White men are evil and racist and will do anything to get what they want.
You’re the first black woman I’ve ever heard say that.
Regarding the Asian fetish thing, I don’t know if you guys are aware, but there is a joke (not mine) about the type of WM who goes out with AW exclusively and vice versa. The WM tends to be some loser type of fellow that can’t get WW to save his life so he goes after AW. As for the AW, she is either unattractive or fat (again, not my words) and so no AM wants her so she meets up with a WM.
It’s not just Asian women. It’s pretty much ALL non-white women except for perhaps black women that view marrying a white man as marrying up. In Latin America, they have a phrase parents often tell their kids “mejorando la raza”, which means “improving the race”. They are telling their kids to marry white or as close to it as they can get as this will “improve” their race. And obviously marrying black is the opposite of that.
You can learn a lot about racial psychology by studying interracial dating patterns. Human value is very much attached to race. It’s not overtly taught in most cases, but it is subtly socially reinforced. An Asian woman may marry a black, but he has to be far above and beyond the average white man in looks, wealth and social status to “make up for” the fact that he’s black. Especially knowing that the shit is going to hit the fan when her parents find out. When traveling in Thailand, I wish I had a dollar for every slimeball, looser looking white guy saw walking around with an Asian women. For Asian women, the white guy is an upgrade. For a white guy who may not be great looking or have much success with white women, he can take advantage of this by dating “ethnic” women who over-value his whiteness and overlook other negative factors. To me that explains the bulk of the WM/AF thing. Asian women that want to socially upgrade and white men that probably have no success getting attractive white women, so they get they go for the next best thing.
Leigh, I was just typing up what you said before I even saw it. We’re on the same wavelength.
@Leaveumthinking:
That’s quite the declaration. I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say that about Asian men…ever. Cool.
It’s interesting you mention that. There are typical stereotypes of Asian men being weak and scrawny, but then they know some form of martial art and have muscles. Seriously, what gives?
In many parts of Asia, white men are pretty much placed on a pedestal. Sadly, quite a few Asians think this as well.
But the thing is, how many Asian men have become champs in boxing or MMA? I can only think of Pacquiao.
@tulio:
@tulio:
It’s interesting you mention that. There are typical stereotypes of Asian men being weak and scrawny, but then they know some form of martial art and have muscles. Seriously, what gives?
My point is, AM are pretty much stereotyped as wimps. While Pacquiao is well known today, don’t forget there was also Bruce Lee. He kicked major butt in his day. I don’t think he would be regarded as weak/scrawny, no?
@tulie:
Those white men (probably old, overweight, and/or ugly) you saw in Thailand had Asian “girlfriends” because they basically paid for them. Another thing, some of those young Thai women may be playing those guys. They’re thinking, “Ooh, another sucker. Maybe I can get some money or use them to get a green card”.
Hello ladies and gentlemen,
If you want to read deeper into why whites divide and conquer people of color to maintain their power, read no further than the article in Color Q World regarding white opposition to IR couples of Color:
________________________________________
White Reactions to Interracial Unions Between People of Color
Many people react negatively to seeing a member of their ethnic group with a member of another ethnic group. To play devil’s advocate, let’s claim the “what is one of our women/men doing with an outsider?” reaction is almost “natural”. Hold your flames. I am NOT against interracial unions. I am just stating that it is not incomprehensible that people (of any race) might feel, rightly or wrongly, that they should stick with their own kind.
The strange thing is, for some whites, this negative reaction to interracial unions extends beyond white/non-white couples. For example, I had a conversation with a man who was 3/4 white and 1/4 Amerindian. He is very proud of his heritage. He looks white. He remarks that his siblings look more Indian. I mentioned that I had a friend who was 1/8 Indian. He asked, “So what does she look like?”
I said she looks more like her father’s family, and the Indian blood is from her mother’s side. As I described my friend, it became apparent to this guy that my part-Indian friend is also black. He suddenly became silent and appeared uncomfortable.
I was somewhat surprised at this response because he was so enthusiastic about this topic just a moment ago. I could only surmise that he was uncomfortable with the idea of a black-Indian hybrid, and by extension, unions between blacks and Indians. This is ironic because he himself is a white-Indian mix, so why should he not be as excited about a black-Indian mix?
If there had only been one such incident, it would not have registered with me. But since then I’ve encountered multiple incidents like this. For example, I hear whites say stuff like, “It is strange to see a black man with an Asian woman,” but the same whites NEVER say, “It is weird to see a white man with an Asian woman.” In fact, some of the white men who make these remarks date Asian women themselves. So why do they regard themselves differently from those black men who date Asians?
I have not personally witnessed it, but I have heard of black-Asian couples encountering more explicit forms of white disapproval. This disapproval is incomprehensible to me because what has a black man-Asian woman couple got to do with white people anyway? Nothing! The ‘purity’ of the European bloodline is not at stake here. The ‘usual’ excuse of “We disapprove of this couple because the white person is not sticking with us” clearly cannot apply in this case. So what could be the reasoning behind these whites who disapprove of black-Asian or black-Amerindian couples?
This is why I read with interest the comment “the yellow woman is considered the white man’s exclusive toy, and he is not willing to share this toy with other men of any color” in this site’s review of The Art of War. So by inference, some so-called open-minded whites who “approve” of interracial unions really only approve of specific interracial combinations that suit their sexual fantasies? That article has shed light on some of the questions I had been asking.
I have often wondered at the reactions of white people to certain interracial couples. I did notice white men who seemed uncomfortable with the idea of white women dating Asian men. The interesting thing is, some of these same white men date Asian women.
For example, a white boy J. was excited telling me about the movie Romeo Must Die. He said there was one scene he found hilarious – the part where Jet Li unmasks an assassin and exclaims, “You’re Chinese!”, to which the lady assassin replies, “No shit!”. Now I knew some things he didn’t because I have many friends from Hong Kong who fill me in on Hong Kong movies and actors. The actress who played the lady assassin in Romeo Must Die is Francoise Yip, daughter of a Chinese Canadian man and a French Canadian woman. I thought it was amusing (not in a derogatory way) that she plays the “quintessential” Chinese in that particular scene in Romeo Must Die. So I thought I’d share this detail with the white boy J., thinking it would enhance the joke he already apparently enjoyed so much. I said, “Actually, that Chinese actress is half-French, her mother is French.” Instantly, the smile receded from his face and he fell into silence. He is usually such a garrulous talker who likes to go on and on about how much he “loves international people”. I was surprised at his sudden change in attitude. I can only surmise that he was bothered by the thought that a white woman had made a child with a yellow man, a fact of which this biracial actress was the living proof. The odd thing is, J himself at that time had a Chinese woman as sex partner/girlfriend. It is typical that white men want to enjoy the bodies of yellow women, but do not want yellow men to date white women.
I also suspect some white men who like Asian women are displeased to see non-white men being with Asian women (even in a movie) because they cannot identify with the male character. Like the article posted on your site said, they considered the yellow woman their exclusive toy which they will not share with other men. At the same time, they don’t like to see white women being with other men because they still consider white women their property.
This double standard in interracial dating is something that we should be ashamed of holding. If we are going to pretend to be “open-minded” and “love diversity”, while in reality encouraging only the kind of interracial unions that suit our stereotypes and exotic fantasies (or at least not threaten our fantasies), I think we are better off not having interracial unions at all. Again, I repeat I am NOT against interracial couples. I just believe that white men (or anyone for that matter) who pass themselves off as “racially open-minded” when they really just want an “exotic” partner do greater disservice to interracial relations than those who don’t date interracially.
_______________________________________________
What are your thoughts?
La Reyna
I’m so disgusted of those white male perverts going to third world countries to take advantage of young children. They ought to be ashamed of themselves, but then again, it’s that disgusting white male entitlement of taking advantage of people of Color. I can see why people of Color are distrustful of white people and their intentions and are standing up against such outrage and insults.
La Reyna
Asian men are way hotter than white men.
I second Leaveumthinking. I too find Asian men attractive, hell I find lots of men attractive being the she-devil that I am. In general, I find racialized men more attractive than white men. Of course being a she-devil, there are some white men I find attractive but not as overwhelmingly as racialized men. The white men I do find attractive have full lips, are swarthy etc, traits in common with racialized men. The Northern European look in general does not appeal to me as much. However, there are exceptions to everyone’s personal rules. My fantasy is to have a harem of male doxies LOL!
“My fantasy is to have a harem of male doxies.”
lol. I don’t think you’re alone in that dream. I too think Asian men are very attractive and agree with Leigh – some are very strong and masculine due to their arts. On top of that, it takes a lot of discipline and focus to succeed in martial arts. It’s not just about two brutes fighting each other.
I can tell you as someone with an AM boyfriend, that discipline and focus is great in all other aspects of life and relationships.
@Herneith:
That’s a great fantasy. Hehe.
It IS creepy. Some of them become deeply involved in anime or manga, even trying to learn some Asian phrase or greeting. It’s lame imho.
Asian men are way hotter than white men.
Agreed, Leaveumthingking. Men of color and dark ethnic white men(Italians, Greeks, Portuguese) are way more attractive and appealing than Waspy men. Yet, society wants people to believe that all women are drawn to white men, which is a myth and a lie in the first place.
I’ve always been attractive to men of Color and there’s nothing wrong with it. It’s white supremcist mindset that demonize men of Color needs to be abolished.
La Reyna
I can tell you as someone with an AM boyfriend, that discipline and focus is great in all other aspects of life and relationships.
Another ‘myth’ busted, LoL. I have a dirty mind so I assume you are referring to the ‘romantic’ aspects?
uuuhh ~ yeah! I know tmi, but it has to be said.lol
ha ha, wow, the sheer brilliance here. I don’t even know where to begin. If white men created the stereotype about asian men then who created the stereotype about black men as being hung like a horse? Let me guess, because white men want to steer black women away from them so they will like black men more. But then, wouldn’t white women and asian women like black men more too? Do any of you think before you type or do you just type the first thing that comes into your heads?
And you people want to ban someone like no_slappz? Ever tried looking at yourselves?
Believe it or not, there are plenty of black men and latino men that have a thing for asian women. I guess its because white men “told” them they should. For those of you that don’t like white men, that’s fine. It’s called an “anything-but-white fetish.” Don’t worry, it’s ok to be racist against white people, that doesn’t count.
The “anything-but-white fetish” is also known as the “fear of white people.”
“The “anything-but-white fetish” is also known as “sick of white people.”
There fixed that for you.
It’s not a fetish to prefer men of color. It’s called taste.
If white men created the stereotype about asian men then who created the stereotype about black men as being hung like a horse?
White men! They sought to keep white women out of the black men’s bed, didn’t work!
But then, wouldn’t white women and asian women like black men more too?
But they do, the white women already, and Asian women more and more. Unfortunately, there is not enough black men to go around. As the majority of marriages are intra-racial among black people this is doubly so. Black women get first dibs.
Do any of you think before you type or do you just type the first thing that comes into your heads?
Why should anyone else when you don’t! I think this is a case of sour grapes a play here, you doth protest to much!
The “anything-but-white fetish” is also known as the “fear of white people.”
I don’t have a fear of white people, however, I can’t speak for others. I do however, have a fear of flying, and no, not the Erica Jong ‘Fear of Flying’.
I like Filipino girls quite a bit.
Hey, I’m Asian-Canadian, but I think that’s common knowledge by now.
Johnson is just mad because he doesn’t feel entitled anymore. He’s out here to make trouble and is a racist and sexist fool.
La Reyna
To be honest, most trolls who come here are racist and sexist white men who are angry that they don’t have the right to exploit people of color. They’re deeply racist. That’s why Black women and most other women don’t want them because they’re insecure and racist/sexist, don’t treat women well.
La Reyna
Johnson,
We like men of color. They’re my father, brother, uncles, cousins. Why would I turn my back on my people to satisfy your white supremacist fetish? If you don’t like what I say, you have a problem like a lot of entitled racist white men in America.
La Reyna
can you say hypocrite? if I use your exact words and replace white with black and women with man or vice versa, I’m a “white racist bigot troll.” you are all fools. white people did not brainwash you into hating yourselves. you brainwashed yourselves into thinking white people hate you. why? because you want them to. its true that there are lots of white racists. but even if hypothetically every white person could turn around and start kissing your asses every day, you wouldn’t want it because you wouldn’t be able to feel sorry for yourselves anymore. you like thinking white people are against you.
What you people are saying makes no sense. Your saying that white men are racist because they won’t date black women. But most of you are saying you don’t like white men, its not your preference. What the hell? That’s like blaming someone for not giving you something you don’t want. Nice circular logic.
are today’s black panthers any different than the kkk? explain to me how.
for the record, the leader of the black panthers recently agreed that all white people should be eliminated from earth. if you agree with this, you are an inbred hick troll with a banjo. you are literally the pot calling the kettle black (no pun intended.) you have physically turned into everything you fear and hate.
oh well, I guess black women are just the same as those blond bimbos after all. one more minute in this place and I’ll kill myself. good for you though, one less white boy to worry about.
we’ll miss you johnson .
It seems that Johnson used to call himself Orchid. He switched on December 3rd. Here is his last comment as Orchid:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/11/06/the-white-inventor-argument/#comment-29556
How can you tell abagond? Checked his IP address?
I made a post about something called the THREE BEARS EFFECT look at the sterotypes of asian men being weak and nerdy and having small penis size and then look at the sterotypes that exist abou black men being ‘hung’ and sexually agressive and stupid they are polar oppisite and white men and right in the middle and as Goldilocks would say “Just right”
Johnson said:
“white people did not brainwash you into hating yourselves. you brainwashed yourselves into thinking white people hate you. why? because you want them to.”
In America whites control the schools, the schoolbooks and television, all of them filled with their white racist worldview. If you are white, it just helps to make you more racist. If you are not it leads to internalized racism: you either wind up hating or doubting yourself or you go through a period where you have to unlearn the lies. The unlearning is rarely complete. For whites the unlearning is extremely rare.
More here:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/11/25/internalized-racism/
Aiyo:
The model minority stereotype about Asians is also a mirror-image of black stereotypes. I even made a chart:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/05/20/the-model-minority-stereotype/
@Aiyo:
Makes a lot of sense. Good analogy.
Leigh:
Right, I checked Johnson’s IP address. That IP address has also had commenters called Isaac and Hitler Juice – it is possible they were someone else but probably not. The switch from Orchid to Johnson was like a half hour – way too quick for that IP address to be given to someone else. He is from the same town as you, oddly enough.
@Aiyo
You’re right about “three bears effect”. It also works for women, I think. No matter how much some white people like Asian women (for being gentle, submissive, etc), there’s still belief that “write is just right”. Black women= too aggressive, Asian women = too submissive, white women = just right.
All the people who go only for one race when there are people of all races in their society (especially if it’s not their own race they’re after), look a bit dishonest to me. On the other hand, I don’t think people should stick to their own race either, but I try to understand people who do this.
@abagond
Now this is becoming quite interesting. And I thought I was the only one. Hmph. ;-P
Johnson said:
“If white men created the stereotype about asian men then who created the stereotype about black men as being hung like a horse? Let me guess, because white men want to steer black women away from them so they will like black men more. But then, wouldn’t white women and asian women like black men more too? Do any of you think before you type or do you just type the first thing that comes into your heads?”
Just because it does not make sense does not mean it is not true. Whites made up the stereotype about black men – ask them. I think it goes back to fears of slave owners about their white wives and their black male slaves. And, as Aiyo points out, Asian stereotypes tend to be the opposite of whatever the black stereotype is – becauser it is whites who are making this stuff up.
I have not yet written about the black buck stereotype (black men as hung like a horse), but I do talk about it a bit here:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/05/06/the-pure-white-woman/
Leigh:
I used one of those two images you gave the links for. It is now the lead picture for the post (scroll up!). Sunghi Lee is beautiful (the woman’s whose picture was there before), but this picture is just too creeptastic to pass up!
Aiyo:
That was an excellent post. Here is the full link (for when it is no longer on the homepage):
http://blackbritishgirl.blogspot.com/2010/01/three-bears-effect_12.html
@abagond:
Oh, by all means, please do. I’ve seen this particular banner ad frequently popping up whenever I visit an Asian site. I’ve always found it annoying and creepy to boot.
Yes the Asian sterotypes are the polar opposites of the black sterotypes and they were both designed to make white people look perfect becasue they not the extermes they are just right.
I belive that you can always spot people with fetishes becasue they feel that they have to justify their reason for dating that person.
“I date Asian women because….(insert aof stereotype)” If it were really just a preference you wouldn’t have to justify it right? Can’t the answer just be simple as “I am attracted to this woman/man.”
@Abagond
I have not yet written about the black buck stereotype (black men as hung like a horse)
Do you want to write about it? I think it’s a good subject for the post.
This is interesting subject (no people, not because of “that!”), at least to me, because it’s one of the rare stereotype about black people that exist in my culture, so I finally understand what you’re talking about.
I even know some people who think black men were the one who invented that stereotype because they’re racist and want to discriminate white men… It’s very difficult to explain people why such a stereotype is NOT a compliment (at least I don’t think it is). I see it as something racist, yes, but against black people, not white ones. And I even know some girls who’d love to meet a black man and be with him to “see if it’s true”, because they’re sooooo attracted to black men (even though, like me, none of them ever met one), just because of this stereotype. It can seem like a plain racist thing, but it’s actually more than that: it’s a form of “woman liberation” thing… If a woman wants to show she’s independent girl who doesn’t buy patriarchal society crap, she’s going to talk about sex and “size does matter” thing. It’s disrespectful.
@Aiyo:
Some of my girlfriends have told me they avoid men who say, “I date Asian women because….” They’re wary of these guys as they don’t see AW as individuals.
“I have not yet written about the black buck stereotype (black men as hung like a horse)”
yeah do a post on that, make sure you do use a appropriate picture though.
I co-sign with peanut about doing a post on the black buck stereotype.
Yep next post the Black buck sterotype
@Mira
People actually think Black men created the sterotype of black men being hyper sexual and being bigger. LOL
All one has to do is go to the Jim Crow museum website and see it was white people who made that up to uphold the pure white woman sterotype so they can protect white women from being destroyed by the Black penis.
The whole emaculation of Asian men were how they were viewd by American whites because they were shorter and did ‘women work’ and how they wore their hair in a long braid (see Jackie Chan in Shanghai Noon)
Also I read somewhere on how Asian males were viewed as brutish as well how during the war there was propaganda of how they were drugging white women with opium
@Tulio
Asian men are way hotter than white men.
You’re the first black woman I’ve ever heard say that.
The majority of Black women I know prefer Black men, but I also know quite a few Black women who find Asian men attractive including myself.
I highly recommend the Jim Crow Museum:
http://www.ferris.edu/JIMCROW/
All one has to do is go to the Jim Crow museum website and see it was white people who made that up to uphold the pure white woman sterotype so they can protect white women from being destroyed by the Black penis.
True, but it doesn’t change the fact many men in my culture consider “big penis” to be the highest compliment one can give to a male human being.
I must admit I find black men more attractive than Asian men (well, if you can say that without any personal experience with any of them). I must admit I don’t know if that’s just a personal preference or media influence.
Jim Crow Museum is a must-read for everyone. I always cry when I remember one particular image from that site. It’s not the worst one out there, but it always make me cry.
I also find asian men attractive the guys i date are usually black or asian
Mira
Jim Crow Museum is a must-read for everyone. I always cry when I remember one particular image from that site. It’s not the worst one out there, but it always make me cry.
You cry because you are a good person.
Mira:
Which picture was it?
Wow, this really got away from the topic of Asian fetish and I don’t want to be off topic . . . but I’m going to be.
Since it’s late I’ll make this quick and if Abagond makes the post about the “Black Buck” stereotype then I’ll definitely have more to say.
The “Three Bears Effect” that Aiyo brought up is definitely real and something that has been used before to “scientifically” explain the differences in the races physically (read sexually) and mentally. J. Philippe Rushton wrote a book, Race, Evolution and Behavior (1995) applying the r/k continuum (usually applied to animals about the quantity and quality of mate selection and offspring) to humans. To summarize: the bigger the brain, the smaller the penis (k) and vice versa (r). In his theory you get one guess as to who is on the “k” end of the spectrum and who is “r”. Guess who’s in the middle.
@Herneith
I second Leaveumthinking. I too find Asian men attractive, hell I find lots of men attractive being the she-devil that I am. In general, I find racialized men more attractive than white men. Of course being a she-devil, there are some white men I find attractive but not as overwhelmingly as racialized men. The white men I do find attractive have full lips, are swarthy etc, traits in common with racialized men. The Northern European look in general does not appeal to me as much. However, there are exceptions to everyone’s personal rules. My fantasy is to have a harem of male doxies LOL!
I think . . . I think you know my mind. Male harems . . . .
@abagond
Mira:
Which picture was it?
The one with baby drinking ink, with title, n…. milk.
There are many, many worse images out there, and yet, that’s the one that always makes me cry. I am not sure why. The innocence of the baby, baby’s little hands, the idea someone thought it was funny, the idea that it could be my child ridiculed in such a way… I don’t know… I am not sure, there are far worse images, and yet, this is the one that I find the most disturbing.
Leaveumthinking
You cry because you are a good person.
Thank you for your kind words. To be honest, I don’t know how to define it… I don’t think of myself that way. But this sort of things disgust me, and I feel deeply ashamed for being human. Some would say it’s a white guilt, but I say it’s more of a human guilt.
The worse thing is, I have no idea how to stop that kind of things, how to make it better- not me as a person, but humans in general. A person can learn and be good, but humans as a whole will never learn.
Abagond, I am aware this post is 100% offtopic. I just needed to say this. Please don’t delete my comment. I’ll stick to the subject from now on.
I have a East Asian Woman fetish!
I have a Black Woman fetish!
I have a White Woman fetish!
I have a South Asian Woman fetish!
I have a Native American Woman fetish!
Save the discrimination of races when it come to sexual partners for women!
I’m a man! I love women in all theie colours! LOL!
Eh. Vindicator, I think “fetish” is a key word here.
LOL! I was looking for some photos to draw. I’m an artist. I came across this site and decided to have a ‘look-see.’ I was amazed! I rarely come across sites where race is so openly discussed. Just to ‘stir the pot’ I’m 1/2 Indian, 1/4 Black, 1/4 Jewish, Catholic, male, and married to an Asian woman whom I love very much, a writer and aforementioned artist. So I guess I ‘qualify’ for give my ‘two cents’ to this type of website. LOL! Anyway I’ll see what happens. LOL!
I was in Manhattan yesterday and I saw 7 interracial couples. All 7 were a White Man with an Asian Women. I felt like I was in The Twilight Zone.
LOL @ Vindicator!
They’re all pink on the inside, man.
[ducking and covering...]
Funny… I don’t know a single white dude that actually has a particular preference for Asians. But I know several Asians, male and female, who prefer whites. It’s the Asians with the fetish. Go to japan sometime and watch the women throw themselves at foreign guys…
The author of this article clearly doesn’t have much experience with… Life.
I think Asian women created this whole facade of being victims of White men with Asian fetish.I guess it’s a way for Asian women to feel desired and wanted.It’s safe to say that Asian women have White fetish but won’t admit it.I know White men who have dated Asian women and also date women of other groups.You will find more Asian women who will claim to only date White men,compare to White men who only date Asian women.Btw this phenomenon is not that big in Europe.In Europe you find more White women with Asian women,versus White men with Asian women,Japanese,Chinese etc………….
Here’s an article on that topic.
Columbia study on racial preferences in dating
In 2007 economist Ray Fisman, in a two-year study he co-authored on dating preferences among Columbia University students, did not find evidence of a general preference among white men for Asian women. Furthermore, the study found that there is a significantly higher pairing of white men with East Asian women simply because East Asian women discriminate racially against black and hispanic men. As quoted on Slate.com, and also reported in the Washington Post [1] and The Review of Economic Studies [2] (a publication of the London School of Economics and Political Science [3] ):[14]
“ We found no evidence of the stereotype of a white male preference for East Asian women. However, we also found that East Asian women did not discriminate against white men (only against black and Hispanic men). As a result, the white man-Asian woman pairing was the most common form of interracial dating—but because of the women’s neutrality, not the men’s pronounced preference. Men don’t seem to discriminate based on race when it comes to dating. A woman’s race had no effect on the men’s choices. ”
The study was carried out over two years and was conducted by economists Ray Fisman (lead researcher from Columbia University) and Emir Kamenica (University of Chicago), as well as psychologists Sheena Iyengar (Columbia University) and Itamar Simonson (Stanford). They took data from “thousands of decisions made by more than 400 daters from Columbia University’s various graduate and professional schools.” [
I also notice that majority of the White men with Asian women in the U.S. are Jewish men.
This was posted on another site:
Dummy’s Guide to Asian Girls with White Fever
The WHIGGIE (White Guy Groupie)
A brief profile of Asian girls afflicted with “White Fever”
ORIGINS: A subset of women of Asian ethnicity, usually found residing in major U.S. cities, although they have been known to appear overseas occasionally. Closely related to their cousins, Yellow Cabs (Japan), Gwei-Po’s (Hong Kong), Sarong Party girls (Singapore), Twinkies and Bananas.
NOT TO BE CONUSED WITH: Intelligent, emotionally-secure women who are free of identity problems, self-hate, racial prejudice and chips on their shoulders.
CHARACTER TRAITS
- Poorly developed self-identity. Pathetically insecure with themselves and their ethnicity.
- Resentment of father’s traditional, authoritarian upbringing (whether real or perceived).
- Brainwashed into believing that they, as AF’s, are more desirable than other women in exotic lotus blossom kinda way. Willingness to pander to western media sexual stereotypes of AF’s, which they perceive as marketing advantage.
- Thoroughly whitewashed. Desperate need to fit into “mainstream” (i.e. white) society and to distance themselves from their Asian heritage. Racial inferiority complex.
- Feigned air of superiority when dealing with members of own race and any other minority groups. In need of major attitude adjustments.
- Exaggerated, whiny, Encino-esque valley girl accent.
- Delusions of grandeur… “I want it all…and that begins with the right (i.e. white) guy…” Asian-American princess complex.
- Uncanny ability of determine one’s nationality, occupation, earning capacity and make of auto within three minutes of commencing a conversation.
- Exaggerated perception of white males’ value in increasing AF’s social status.
- Ignorant and narrow-minded, eager to adopt and perpetuate fallacious western media stereotypes of Asian men.
- A compulsion to trash Asians, particularly Asian men, in order to justify their autoracist tendencies, placate their guilt and bolster their self-esteem.
- Extremely shallow, self-centered, argumentative and boring.
- Disdains ethnic studies; regards it as a major threat to her carefully constructed, self-deceptive whiggie identity.
- Despises all Asian men, with the occasional exception of their brothers (after all, they share the same genes.
- Believes that racism does not exist because she, as an AF, has never experienced it first hand, or is too dense to realize it. Besides, those Asiaphiles are so nice to her (while plotting to get into her pants.
- Gets a warm fuzzy feeling when watching The Joy Luck Club, while snuggled up to her geeky Asiaphile boyfriend.
- Believes that the only reason an Asian person would disrespect her is because they are racist.
- Has lost count of how many WM’s she’s done this month.
- The wet-dream come true for socially-handicapped Caucasian nerds who are unable to attract Caucasian women.
- Threatened and insecure in the presence of any culturally-perceptive Asian person or any AM not fitting her stereotype of the quiet , marginalized, “model minority” geek.
- Fundamentally insecure, utterly confused, lacking in self respect.
- Many aging whiggies, after being used and abandoned by WM’s in favor of younger, more nubile whiggies and being rejected by AM’s who see through their transparency, develop a bitterness towards all men, period.
- Denial of all of the above.
FACIAL EXPRESSIONS: a) Look of contempt when eyes meet those of any non-white male, converting to beaming grin upon sighting of WM victim/target; b) terminal pout or c) bimboish expression that defies deep thought.
TYPICAL ATTIRE: Anything trendy, mainstream-looking and seductive (especially if it’s black and tight). Big hair (perhaps their most valuable asset) tossed with hand every 15 seconds. Wonderbra. Fanatical whiggies have been known to undergo certain procedures such as eyelid surgery, breast augmentation and vaginal tightening operations in order to increase their marketability to WM’s. Blue contact lenses and bleached blonde hair have even been sported on occasion. Note: Attire may vary depending on the specific type of WM being targeted.
I.Q: Too low to measure.
NATURAL HABITAT:
Personal ad columns (“exotic, slim, SAF seeks successful, generous SWM”), cheerleading squads, sorority houses (role: token “oriental sisters”), T.V. newsdesks, B-grade Kung-Fu flicks, trendy nightclubs (usually found necking with aging WM’s), Chinese restaurants (slumming with the WM and demonstrating that she’s “in touch with her heritage”), anywhere else frequented by White males.
TYPICAL WHIGGIE QUIPS:
Age 10: “Mom, why do we have to be (Chinese/Japanese/Korean)? Do you have to dress like that? And what’s with Dad and his accent?
Age 12: “Mom, I want an eyelid job for Christmas, okay?
Later on…
“I’ve always only dated white guys. I don’t know why, I just have.”
“Race doesn’t matter. I just happen to like white guys. It’s just a preference.”
“We are the world, we are the children…We…”
“I’ve gone out with all kinds of guys…Dutch, English, French, German, you name it. Even went out with a Jewish guy once! After all, love is color blind.”
“Eeeew, Jennifer, how could you go out with that (insert minority group here) guy!?” Totally gross!
“Oooh Roger, you’re like soooo strong and intelligent. Did you say you drive a beemer? Kewl! (giggle).”
“I want to learn English better…you maybe teach, handsome man? Are you U.S. citizen?” (Yes FOB’s can be whiggies too!)
“Like why would I want to go out with an Asian guy? They don’t own me or anything. Uhh, and besides they are all male chauvinist …and domineering too…yeah that’s it! Didn’t you see The Joy Luck Club?”
Like, I’m dating *out* of my race, so how can I be racists?!! Duh!!
CLOSELY RELATED TO: Racists, bigots, wannabes, ho’s, chameleons, white supremacists, a fish out of water.
MEDIA REPRESENTATION/ROLE MODELS: Connie Chung, Amy Tan, Lisa Ling, Margaret Cho, Sheryl Wu Dunn, any of The Joy Luck Club protagonists (except the one who married an Asian dude).
NATURAL COUNTERPARTS: Asiaphiles…who else?
If White men have this huge Asian fetish,how come the Asian woman is not the ideal beauty in Western society?
How come Asian women are having plastic surgery in attempt to look more White?
Some movies that one should watch.
Titles: She’s out my league
SOOOO….. I am white and I date asian women sometimes. Listen up for all you creepy weirdos that thrive on making that into some kind of animal-like robotic obsession with Asian women:
-> I AM NOT OBSESSED WITH ASIAN WOMEN.
-> I AM NOT OBSESSED WITH ASIA.
-> I AM NOT TRYING TO PUT DOWN ASIAN MEN.
-> IF I AM ATTRACTED TO AN ASIAN WOMAN, I WILL DATE HER.
-> IF I AM NOT, THEN I WILL NOT.
I REPEAT. I AM NOT OBSESSED WITH ASIAN WOMEN!!
What is so completely creepy about asian women (sometimes) is when I am out somewhere and I accidently glance at one of you self-fetishing asian women, and you look at me like “Oh no! the white boy is obsessed with me!! Oh God! Get away!! OH JEEPERS!!!!”
LOL.. as if I really give a crap whether you like me or not?? But what I _DO_ care about is WHY you are actually reacting that way!!
The funny thing is that many times the girl is completely homely. (Btw- here’s another myth: _ALL_ asian women are hot. LOL. Newsflash: there are just as many ugly-dog asian women as in any other race. Um……………. sorry. But that’s the plain truth. You force the plain truth when you insist that everyone is obsessed and fetishizing over you.)
YEP. It is so completely creepy when asian women look at me that way. So many times these women are not even attractive at all. But they have swallowed the “All white boys are obsessed with me because I have dark hair and dark eyes” mythology.
UM. NO. SORRY. Here’s the truth for you asian women that have drunk the kool-aid fed to you by your self-obsessed asian female friends, and/or your insecure asian male brothers and friends:: If you are ugly, noone will be obsessed with you.
If you are beautiful…. but obsessed with yourself? Welllll………. then you are back to ugly….. sorry bout that. No amount of make-up, and having a body like a twig, makes up for how ugly being self-obsessed makes you.
Sorry.
Arrogance is ugly.
Conceit is creepy and nasty.
And its’ all VERRRY creepy when you inscribe it onto ME!!! Yukkkk.
Bottom line is that many asian are self-fetishizing creepy weirdos. You (sometimes) are absolutely obsessed with yourselves. And you simply CANNOT understand why the whole world would not be the same.
Soooooo…….In the process of believing this creepy lie (that everyone is obsessed with you), you INSCRIBE YOUR OWN SELF-FETISH ONTO WHITE MEN!!!!! Me!!!
Ugh…
Now, we all know that some people have fetishes for different races. It’s no secret that *some* asian women dig white guys. So who cares???? Sometimes asian women dig black guys for the “hung” stereotype…. Um.. who cares??????? Sometimes white guys have a thing for tall scandanavian women with silvery blond hair and piercing blue eyes…. UM. SO WHAT????????? And yes, a few here and there might have a “thing” for asians….. Um. Who gives a care???????
But what is so gross is how asians de-humanize only ONE KIND of specific attraction: White males who are attracted to asian women. Yup. We are animals who like asian women just because they are… uh. .. asian. Yeh. That’s what you think. It’s almost like there is NO OTHER ATTRACTION THAT MATTERS… and if there is a “fetish” then the ONLY ONE THAT EXISTS is the one that white men supposedly have for asian women.
And of course, this is related to the myth that the most beautiful women are, you guessed it, Asian. LOL. It’s as if there are just no gorgeous non-Asian women in the world! Again, I’m just chuckling here.
I smell conceit, arrogance and self-fetish again. And it smells like a bathroom!!!
Um. No. If I like an asian woman, it is because I am attracted to her emotionally, physically, and mentally. First of all, if she is pudgy (many asian women are not FAT perse, but pudgy) I am NOT attracted. If she is ugly it ain’t gonna happen. I am not automatically, robotically attracted to asian women!!!
UGH!
Here’s a news flash for (some of) the Asian world: while you self-deluded Asians sit around pondering the mythology that everyone is obsessed with Asia here’s the truth: the only “fetish” or “obsession” for asia is the one that Asians have. Sure, some people have fetishes for people of all races (you never hear that from insecure asian males. Hmm) But Asians fetishize themselves to the extent that they are convinced that everyone else does, too. You all are so obsessed with yourselves and your “pure cultures” to the point that you create mythologies about other people being “obsessed” with you, confusing it with simple attraction, or interest, or even academic study. LOL.
And then of course the ones who ultimately drive the whole “asian obsession” mythology are the insecure asian males (the so-called “foi boys”) chirping and whining about asian women and non-asian men. “OMG – watch out! He’s only after you because he has “asian fever.” Is that so? Well, Mr. Hong, why do you, yourself, ONLY date asian women? Hmm.. Here’s the reason: it’s because YOU are actually the one who is obsessed with asian women.
Insecure asian men are so sensitive about this to the extent that for asian women to cross racial lines is an ACT OF WAR on their very self-worth. Yep: if the object of your obsession favors the object of your dread and hatred, then that affects you to the point that you must have a strategy to turn the object of your obsession away from the object of your hatred.
Others have said it and I will say it too: IN NO WAY ARE ALL ASIAN MEN LIKE THIS!! And I apologize to those of you who are not caught up in the foi boy mentality to reject and punish asian women for sometimes dating other races.
++++++
So…. I am NOT a stereotyper!!
Truly….. ALL ASIANS ARE NOT LIKE THIS.
ONE: Though many, many are, ALL ASIAN MEN ARE NOT INSECURE~!! I know plenty of solid, strong asian men who don’t care who asian women date; they do not feel that they own asian women. further more!! They date other races too!! Please note that none of my rant is aimed at you at all! I know that asian men are
I love how some insecure asian men ( foi-boys) ONLY DATE ASIAN WOMEN, they rant and rant about how GREAT and AWESOME Asian women are.. they are incredible! Amazing! Gorgeous! and I would NEEVER date a white girl…..
and then they have the nerve to accuse ME of being obsessed with them!!!
LMAO!!!
Um, please….. you guys are busted!! Asian men (sometimes) are so obsessed with asian women that it gets pretty gross and creepy and flat weird. But are they accused of any fetish? Nope. If I just accidentally glance at an asian woman, will she think I’m obsessed? maybe, and its creepy, and dehumanizing. Whoa!~
TWO: there are plenty of really, really cool asian women who are strong, self-secure women who are really interesting individuals.. I have dated many asian women (please note!!! I do date other races, also!!! sheesh!!). I think there are plenty of asian women out there who are sweet and are not caught up in the mythology of asian fetish that sometimes asian men use to demonize and marginlize white men as somehow less worthy than asian men are to have a relationship with an asian woman. That sounds like the Nazis to me!!! JEEZ……
So I am just putting this out there.
I am not a hater. But enough is enough.
Peace out, folks.
@Hugh
Did you really just push the blame on the creation of the Asian Female Fetish on Asians? Sorry but the “Submissive China Doll” stereotype has been in full swing ever since the mid 60′s, thanks to white men, and has been (mainly) kept alive by Asian (women and culture) fetishists.
@ David
Abagond lacks real world experience? Pot meet Kettle. The Japanese like foreigners in general! Not just white dudes.
@ Hugh
“And yes, a few here and there might have a “thing” for asians….. Um. Who gives a care???????”
I think that you need to take an honest look at the outdating ratio of Asian women compared with that of other ethnicities.
I give you the quote from Wikipedia:
“Marriages between White Americans and Asian Americans are increasingly common for both genders in the United States (Lange, 2005), however unions between Asian women and White men continue to outnumber the reverse coupling by roughly three to one. In 1990, about 69 percent of married Asian American women aged between 18 and 30 were wed to Asian American men, while 25 percent had White husbands.[14] In 2006, 41 percent of Asian American-born women were registered as having White husbands, while 50 percent were married to Asian American men”
If Whites were a minority of only 7% in the U.S., and 41% of White women were marrying Asian men, why do I get the feeling that all of those explanation points and capital letters would be directed toward the A/W couples????
It’s easy to have yourself a little tirade when you’re in a privileged majority who is marrying up 41% of the Asian women in the U.S. But until you’ve actually been on the other side of the zero sum game, maybe it would be best if spent more time considering and less time talking,
@Franklin.
Absolutely right, Franklin. And let me ask you a question. Where did that stereotype come from in the first place
And you say, “Sorry but the “Submissive China Doll” stereotype has been in full swing ever since the mid 60′s, thanks to white men..” LOL. Um – NO. The “Submissive China doll” stereotype has been in full swing for…..[drumrolll] MILLENIA! And it was created by…..LOL. You guessed it. Asian men!
For **MILLENIA** ASIAN MEN are responsible for marginalizing, exploiting, taking advantage of and, yes, sexually perverting Asian women. They were absolutely required to be submissive or die. LIterally.
That continues to this day in some parts of India and China. And when you consider that Asian men are 98% of the Asian prostitution problem, human-trafficking problem, all the way down to the child-prostitution problem, the list of reasons that Asian males created the “asian fetish” grows.
Are there a few perverted foreigners around following suit? Of course. They are goofballs. But Asian men are the founders of the whole racket. Sorry.
And do not make me go into the history of females in waiting in the Japanese, Korean, and Chinese royal court traditions. Unfortunately, it’s literally in your blood to exploit women!~~!
Yes, I blame Asian men for fetishizing asian women more than anyone in the whole world. you are the ones that have the culture that has not only fetishized them for millenia, set them in the backroom ready to meet the pleasures of every man, and then, even today, demand that they bow down to men (esp in Korea I hear) and serve them.
But you take it further. Asian men are so obsessed with Asian women that they go literally ballistic when asian women are interested with other groups.
All proof of a really, serious creepy fetish.
And, um, white guys sometimes see that, and of course they might indulge in what you HAVE ALREADY CREATED CULTURALLY AND SOCIALLY. The most hypocritical thing about Asian male fetishism is that it targets white men as exploiters of asian women, even as they go out to the girly bar on the corner to have drinks with their friends at a bar filled with girls who are being prostituted. Happens EVERYDAY in Japan. Korea. China. Hong Kong. Doesn’t matter. Asian men are the kings of asian female exploitation. NOT white men. Sorry.
OF COURSE, not all asian men are like this. Many are. And I think a lot of white guys are just tired of the accusations. Are we all perfect? Of course not.
As I said before, I am not trying to hate. I defend Asian men when white people have stupid stereotypes. But you Asians take the cake, sometimes, when you go off on this silliness about asian fetish and white men even while the fetish was born in your own culture. Even when you girls are just like any other race: some of you are beautiful and lovely; some of you are, ahem, NOT! LOL. But there are great asian girls out there who don’t get caught up in this nonsense. And there are great asian guys who are not insecure and can own up to their past as the founders or any kind of “fetish.”
“Yes, I blame Asian men for fetishizing asian women more than anyone in the whole world. you are the ones that have the culture that has not only fetishized them for millenia, set them in the backroom ready to meet the pleasures of every man, and then, even today, demand that they bow down to men (esp in Korea I hear) and serve them.”
Wow…
- Exactly which Asian culture are you talking about here? Are you implying that they ALL did this? If not, how many Asian cultures are there, and how many of them treated women in this way you have described?
- Are you saying that ALL (or most) Asian women were/are prostitutes???
- You DO realize that Asian men also bow to each other don’t you? It’s called a CUSTOM. In the West, men force women to clasp hands with men and shake them up and down! Can you really be this uninformed?
@Hugh: It’s not that you date a few East Asian women. That is not a fetish. What is a fetish, however, is white men going up to East Asian women and going “Oh, I’ve always wanted to have sex with an Asian woman. Are your coochies really slanted/tight? You know, I’ve heard that Asian women are really submissive; they like to please their men. Is that true?” And so on. The Asian women who’ve posted on here have said that they get this from white men constantly. Are you seriously going to suggest that after being propositioned by white men a number of times, that they’re not going to at least be wary? Come on; that’s not even realistic.
@King.
Wow is right, King.
What Asian culture am I talking about?! LOL. The Asian culture that had dynasties and emperors and royal courts for millenia?? Have you heard of the Asian culture more commonly known as, um, China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, etc?
Don’t try to push me into a “white male stereotyping Asians” mold.. of course that is after everyone does that to me.
Am I saying that all Asian women are prostitutes. I love it. Now you are trying to imply that I think all Asian women are prostitutes. LOL. Um, no, King that is not what I am implying, although that is of course what you like to believe that I think. Right? LOL. What I am saying is the Asian men have exploited, marginalized, and abused Asian women for millenia. I have made it very clear that I am not talking about ALL Asian men. However, it has been deeply cultural, embedded in the very court rituals and cultural customs of time, to treat women in certain ways in Asia that are despicable. If you want to deny that, then you are delusional. LOL.
Bowing. King, I was using that as an analogy for the way women are forced to be subjugated to men in Asia to this very hour. I am aware that all people bow to eachother in certain places in Asia — but not everywhere.
The point of my post is to make it clear the silliness of your point about the creation of this “asian fetish” originating in 1960 with…LOL… white men! That is so ridiculous as to be laughable. Particularly when you all have been experts at subordinating and marginalizing women for millenia. As if you needed my help, or something… !! LOL.
No. Asian fetish was _not_ created by white men in the 1960s, King. Sorry. LMAO!
It has been around for a LONG time. And white men had absolutely nothing to do with its creation ultimately in time past.
As far as white men coming up to asian women and actually saying crap like “Are your coochies really slanted/tight?” I think that is absurd!! LOL. Only the dumbest idiot would say something like that. Are there dumb white guys who would do that? Sure, a few. But to imply that some kind of huge majority of white guys go up to asian women and say craps like “your coochie is tight and I want you to be submissive and cook me some noodles.” then you are simply on the stereotype-bus with a one way ticket to nowhere!!
I have gone out with many asian women and every last one of them were different. For the record, I did not care at all “how tight their coochie is” (your creepy words, not mine) and I appreciated each of them as a human being. Sorry that does not fit your creepy stereotypes of white men.
But that’s it.
peace out.
@Hugh
More deflective white male lunacy. You predictably missed an important part. When Asian men did what you call “fetishizing” Asian women, it wasn’t on the basis of race. If it was, then every other gender specific aspect of all Asian custom that was different than Euro ones would be included in Asian Fetishizing. We intelligent people call those clusters of customs a “culture.” It wasn’t until self-serving white men perverted and warped these Asian customs on the basis of race that the Asian fetish came about. So don’t slap your own white connotations of perversion onto something that is different from yours, for the sake of justifying your own groups history of degenerative behavior.
To bluebirds:
I also notice that majority of the White men with Asian women in the U.S. are Jewish men.
Not a majority I would say but over represented as a percentage of their population. (2% of the men in the US…)
Note also, Jewish guys are also over represented when it comes to dating or marrying Black women.
Samhita at Feministing put it well, speaking for many Asian women:
But for the rest of us, that are sick and tired of white men being into us because we are “exotic,” well this shit is just tired
Samhita is not the classic sort of Asian that American White guys get interested in… she’s South Asian not East Asian. In my experience South Asian (immigrants at least ) women are markedly less interested in White guys than East Asian women. (and White guys know this.. so they generally don’t pursue them as much…)
“What Asian culture am I talking about?! LOL. The Asian culture that had dynasties and emperors and royal courts for millenia?? Have you heard of the Asian culture more commonly known as, um, China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, etc?”
Let’s see now. Dynasties, emperors, and royal courts… Do you mean Charlemagne? The Merovingians? Perhaps the Roman Caesars?
You fancy yourself not to be a racist… of course, because you sometimes date minority women. Yet, you criticize their cultures in comparison with your own. You see their men as overbearing and oppressive and their sisters as “creepy” and self obsessed. But by what bar are judging them? With whom are you comparing them? What do you know best?
Western Whiteness.
All that you have said is but a thin veil of distraction stretched over the gaping depth of contempt that you feel toward Asian cultures. You see yourself as better than Asian men, and as a prize to Asian women. You’re not like THIER men, no! You will rescue them from the brutal Asian Shogun!
…and while your at it, you might as well rescue the svelte Latina from their macho Latin oppressors! And the raven-haired middle-eastern women from the brutal sheik! And perhaps even the curvaceous Black honey from her brutal pimp. You the White man will do this
The most brutal of them all.
To King:
You the White man will do this…The most brutal of them all.
I dare say some things have changed in recent years:
http://blog.onlinemetals.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/nerds1.jpg
BRUTAL! just in a different way, Uncle Milton!!!
To King:
I think that you need to take an honest look at the outdating ratio of Asian women compared with that of other ethnicities. “Marriages between White Americans and Asian Americans are increasingly common for both genders in the United States (Lange, 2005), however unions between Asian women and White men continue to outnumber the reverse coupling by roughly three to one.
The three to one ratio interestingly corresponds to the number of Black men married or cohabitating with White women vs White men cohabitating or married to Black women.
I doubt that is due to the intentional actions of White men. It takes two to tango.
To King:
BRUTAL! just in a different way, Uncle Milton!!!
Yes I can see you crossing the street when you see that trio… so you won’t catch their disease.
“The three to one ratio interestingly corresponds to the number of Black men married or cohabitating with White women vs White men cohabitating or married to Black women.”
Yes, but the difference is that Black men are not marrying 41% of White women.
“I doubt that is due to the intentional actions of White men. It takes two to tango.”
No, in most cases it’s not intentionally done by individuals, but I still see the abnormally high numbers as tied to the fact that White men are seen as more valuable in American society than Asian men.
So when a white guy has a preference for his own race/culture does that mean he has a fetish? I don’t believe you can fetishize(is that word?) another race. The white man who prefers white chicks is no better than the white man who fancies Asian women. If it’s so abnormal then why do they have the ability to procreate? Fetish sounds like a word that applies to objects and not humans. I don’t believe most white guys who are into Asians see them as things.
*Don’t know much about white males who prefer Asians, but I doubt most of them who do can’t see them as human.
To King:
Yes, but the difference is that Black men are not marrying 41% of White women.
The number imbalance is exacerbated due to the low number of Asians to Whites and the numbers for 2nd generation (and higher..) Asians are not nearly so skewed.. what that tells me is that White women.. for whatever reason do not prefer Asian male culture (and yes I know there are big differences..) but don’t mind assimilated Asian men. (FWIW, my sister is married to a 3rd generation Japanese American…)
“The number imbalance is exacerbated due to the low number of Asians to Whites”
Perhaps, but it is curious that we don’t see the same phenomenon with other smaller ethnic populations and White men. It seems that Asia women have become a special case in that regard.
Also, Asian men have been totally screwed by American media for decades—either portrayed as invisible, or as neutered dorks.
To King:
UM Said:
“The number imbalance is exacerbated due to the low number of Asians to Whites”
Perhaps, but it is curious that we don’t see the same phenomenon with other smaller ethnic populations and White men. It seems that Asia women have become a special case in that regard.
Let’s look at the census data from 2000. The two groups least likely to marry/cohabitate outside of their race/ethnicity are non-Hispanic White men and Black women.
As I look at the data… I notice that the percentage of White men marrying Asian women is 28% higher than Black men who marry Asian women…. higher certainly but not as much as we have been led to believe by these assertions that there are droves of White male Asian fetishists running around. Also realize we have had a substantial number of American men (and few woman..) stationed in Asian since 1945. Invariably a good percentage of these men we young and single and ended up marrying some of the local women.
Does this mean I don’t think there are White men who have fetishes for Asian women… no.. they certainly exist…. but these articles bemoaning White men and Asian women ignore other interracial and ethnic patterns in the US. According to the 2000 US census data 2.1% White men marry or cohabitate with Asian women and 3.6% White women marry or cohabitate with Black men…. so flip the script and talk about the White women and Black men… (Which for marriage or cohabitation is 70% more likely than for White men and Asian women..) and it starts to sound a bit ugly doesn’t it…?
Color key (I didn’t make these..)
Yellow = Asian people
Red = Native Americans
Brown = Hispanics
Black = Black people
White = White people
Cohabitation patterns of Asian men:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ODa44Ca3Qog/ShWXwSAX4DI/AAAAAAAAA58/ybCr4LLcQ78/s1600-h/asian+men+live.gif
Marriage patterns of Asian men:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ODa44Ca3Qog/ShWXwV1SR2I/AAAAAAAAA6E/8EHTf0sEy_Q/s1600-h/asian+men+marry.gif
Cohabitation patterns of Asian women:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ODa44Ca3Qog/ShWXwtfjiSI/AAAAAAAAA6M/M1qdTmTwQuU/s1600-h/asian+women+live.gif
Marriage patterns of Asian women:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ODa44Ca3Qog/ShWXw4wrtjI/AAAAAAAAA6U/zCk91GUrVuU/s1600-h/asian+women+marry.gif
Cohabitation patterns of Black men:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ODa44Ca3Qog/ShWX9oNaUdI/AAAAAAAAA6c/mZoucNNxGQM/s1600-h/black+men+live.gif
Marriage patterns of Black men:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ODa44Ca3Qog/ShWX90lG5dI/AAAAAAAAA6k/v7hpm3xIlyY/s1600-h/black+men+marry.gif
Cohabitation patterns of Black women:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ODa44Ca3Qog/ShWX-Hh4cbI/AAAAAAAAA6s/8dI11etEK9M/s1600-h/black+women+live.gif
Marriage patterns of Black women:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ODa44Ca3Qog/ShWX-G698aI/AAAAAAAAA60/h-RT1VWtRpw/s1600-h/black+women+marry.gif
Cohabitation patterns of Hispanic men:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ODa44Ca3Qog/ShWYUktRoEI/AAAAAAAAA7A/X4HreA0K4JE/s1600-h/hisp+men+live.gif
Marriage patterns of Hispanic men:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ODa44Ca3Qog/ShWYUwKNavI/AAAAAAAAA7I/DbvePoaJmOo/s1600-h/hisp+men+marry.gif
Cohabitation patterns of Hispanic women:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ODa44Ca3Qog/ShWYU7xHBKI/AAAAAAAAA7Q/FXkE4nc-Alw/s1600-h/hisp+women+live.gif
Marriage patterns of Hispanic women:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ODa44Ca3Qog/ShWYVHMStwI/AAAAAAAAA7Y/JAQ-p7WMI0o/s1600-h/hisp+women+marry.gif
Cohabitation patterns of White men:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ODa44Ca3Qog/ShWYa8TPXgI/AAAAAAAAA7g/tq39aHjsYyM/s1600-h/white+men+live.gif
Marriage patterns of White men:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ODa44Ca3Qog/ShWYbQAsCPI/AAAAAAAAA7o/hUl1LxGmPcE/s1600-h/white+men+marry.gif
Cohabitation patterns of White women:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ODa44Ca3Qog/ShWYbrDo6UI/AAAAAAAAA7w/JCZPwAmuqDY/s1600-h/white+women+live.gif
Marriage patterns of White women:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ODa44Ca3Qog/ShWYb1-GCpI/AAAAAAAAA74/e-OO2hv2LOE/s1600-h/white+women+marry.gif
http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t19/tab02.pdf
@King.
“You fancy yourself not to be a racist… of course, because you sometimes date minority women. Yet, you criticize their cultures in comparison with your own. You see their men as overbearing and oppressive and their sisters as “creepy” and self obsessed. But by what bar are judging them? With whom are you comparing them? What do you know best?”
And I love how you are completely convinced that I am livid with hatred for Asians. LOL. You and your asian echo-chamber stereotypes of white men. Lovely.
Um, King? Do I know you? The reason I am not a racist, is because I am *not* a racist. But the problem with that accusation is that it is proof that you yourself are also racist. Interesting how that works, huh? You are trying to root out racism, and the way that you do it is racist.
And therefore it really doesn’t make any difference but promote more racism in the world?
Things that make you go hmmmm…….
Yup, I love how you simply lump every white person into a big bag of horrible idiots, label that big lump… [drumroll please]……… “Western Whiteness,” and then proceed to believe that you are all-knowing with reference to any white guy who dates an asian women. Right? LOL. Of course I’m right!
And yes, I’ll play your little game. If I am judging you by “Western Whiteness” then you are judging me by the “Asian Male Insecurity Syndrome.” That is the notion that some Asian men have that all white men are out to get their women and and asian men have to protect them. Right? The fact is, because of the marginalization of asian men (admittedly for some very stupid stereotypes of asian men in the white world) you feel absolutely horrified when an asian woman “crosses over.” And then you vilify white men as the very culprit of the pain you feel. But the asian women has “self-hatred”. There is of course, no possibility that two human beings are just attracted to each other for the insecure asian man.
But this is the very reason Asian men are obsessed with Asian women: Because they are marginalized by other female groups. I am not saying that is good or bad; sometimes these non-Asian women are judging you for silly stereotypical reasons. I would be upset about that, too.
But the point is that it makes you mad and it hurts. And so you have to make sure that Asian women are in your “camp” and that is something that Asian men cannot give up on — asian women belong to us; they will not go over to “Western Whiteness” and let “Western Whiteness” have his “asian fetish” on our women. They belong to us. And the only real, true relationship that an asian women can have is with…..you guessed it….and asian man. Right?
Well, you might as well put the Nazi flag outside your door at that point, because you sound like a Nazi. The pure race is the Asian. The “Western Whiteness” is now the Jew. No impurity. No mixing of blood! Out of here with the white barbarians!!!!
In the end, if you actually took the time to get to know white men and what their motivations were (you obviously prefer to make racist accusations from a distance) then you would understand that the motivations of most white guys are very noble.
Qualification: I do not think all asian men are insecure, and I do not think that all asian women are obsessed with themselves. However, many are. And I do not back down from that.
@Franklin who said the following:
“More deflective white male lunacy. You predictably missed an important part. When Asian men did what you call “fetishizing” Asian women, it wasn’t on the basis of race. If it was, then every other gender specific aspect of all Asian custom that was different than Euro ones would be included in Asian Fetishizing. We intelligent people call those clusters of customs a “culture.” It wasn’t until self-serving white men perverted and warped these Asian customs on the basis of race that the Asian fetish came about. So don’t slap your own white connotations of perversion onto something that is different from yours, for the sake of justifying your own groups history of degenerative behavior.”
Ah, Lovely, Franklin!
Let’s go through this point by point.
First of all, I am a “white male lunatic.” Hmm. Well, that sure helps your argument when you begin by making a horrible racist comment about a whole swath of human beings based on the color of their skin. Nice. No qualifications. Just pure 100% good old-fashioned racism. And you don’t seem to really care, do you? Nice.
Next, who gave you the right to define exactly what “asian fetish” is? LOL. “Asian fetish” is not a defined term by any academic organ or institution that I know of, Franklin, unless you would like to cite a journal article that I have missed recently???? LOL.
No. Sorry, you do not have the God-given right to create the “asian fetish” entry in the dictionary. And I say that it can most certainly be same-race. As a matter of fact, the clinical term for fetish has *nothing at all to do with race.* So, technically speaking you are completely wrong to use it racially.
But no, it is clear to me that some Asian men are totally obsessed with Asian women. Much more than white men. Asian women are the keys to their self-worth — IF (and this is a big if) Asian men can convince these women that white men who date asian women all have the so-called “asian fetish.” Yes! Then these women will see that Asian men are the best for them.
In the end, myself included, I don’t know any white guy who is “obsessed” with asian women. Do I sometimes date an asian woman because I’m attracted to her? Of course, why not? And those women I have dated were wonderful beautiful individuals who I call my friends. None of them were the same at all. And I date non-asians a lot too.
But let’s finish with this little gem:
“So don’t slap your own white connotations of perversion onto something that is different from yours, for the sake of justifying your own groups history of degenerative behavior.”
Nice! I see by your words that the only motivation “Western Whiteness” has is to “justify degenerative behavior.” And this is nice: “It wasn’t until self-serving white men perverted and warped these Asian customs on the basis of race that the Asian fetish came about.” Love it. As if you needed “perverted white men” to come and warp gender-relations. LOL. Excellent racist deflection from the point that simply goes back to the truth that Asian men have PLENTY of Asian-fetish behavior that goes back into the mists of time.
Oh, and by the way, we intelligent people know that the concept of “culture” is highly contested and amorphous. But I guess you’re still in undergrad sociology 101 and haven’t gotten to the current theoretical discussions, right?
“And I love how you are completely convinced that I am livid with hatred for Asians. LOL. You and your asian echo-chamber stereotypes of white men. Lovely.”
I don’t think that you understand what racism actually is. When somebody listens to the words pouring out of your brain, and then concludes that you have some animosity towards Asian cultures, that is not racism, it’s observation.
1) “Bottom line is that many asian are self-fetishizing creepy weirdos. You (sometimes) are absolutely obsessed with yourselves. And you simply CANNOT understand why the whole world would not be the same.”
2) “While you self-deluded Asians sit around pondering the mythology that everyone is obsessed with Asia here’s the truth: the only “fetish” or “obsession” for asia is the one that Asians have.”
3) “And do not make me go into the history of females in waiting in the Japanese, Korean, and Chinese royal court traditions. Unfortunately, it’s literally in your blood to exploit women!~~!”
I’m not saying that your a klansman, I’m just saying that you have a way at looking at vastly different Asian cultures as ALL more or less the same. I’m also saying that you tend to see the misogyny in the Asian cultures as endemic to the cultures, while simultaneously seeing misogyny in White American culture as incidental to that culture. ALL cultures have oppressed women, and ALL cultures have held up their own women as ideal. The fact that you see these things as unique to Asians reveals your belief that your own cultural mores are somehow more enlightened, when in fact, they are not.
@Uncle Milton & King
I’m not sure if we can infer much from IR marriage rates & census data. The number imbalances seem to mess everything up. For instance, when other races marry out it is disproportionately to a white person. Is this telling us they all prefer whites after their own race or does this tell us the larger white population means your’e more likely to marry(out) white as opposed to the other races? A nice question to ask would be:
Do you still believe white male-asian female marriage rate would be the same if whites and asians shared the same percentage of the population?
@King
Well, then, I think we have come to a common area of understanding. We both acknowledge that there are ugly stereotypes on both sides of the fence. Agreed. I have no problem with that. White people are constantly reminded of this by every minority group in the world. And we should be reminded. But I am NOT a racist. I grew up in a family with a Father who literally punished us kids for making racist comments about anyone.
And also: if someone listens to what I am saying and makes an observation, that is fine. When someone is not *hearing* what I am saying and responds with racist lumpings together of all white people, well, that is racism. And of course, innocent “observations” are sometimes the worst racism, no?
Finally, I made very clear qualifications to my comments. I do NOT believe that all Asians are one way, male or female. And I do work to dispel stupid stereotypes, as do countless millions of white people in my generation. That is why when minorities blanket judge the whole groups with notions of “Western Whiteness” (an illusion if I ever heard one) it sounds like there are no distinctions at all between the left-over racist whites (there are some out there, of course) and the rest of us who are working diligently to move forward.
But moving forward will not happen if Asians simply reify the very racism they decry by turning unfair stereotypes back on white people.
BTW, thanks for digging up those charts, Uncle Milton.
“Is this telling us they all prefer whites after their own race or does this tell us the larger white population means your’e more likely to marry(out) white as opposed to the other races?”
Well, it’s a difficult proposition because of our old friend, ‘white privilege.’ It’s as if each White person is walking around with a $10,000 check safety-pinned to their clothing which would be given to the person who marries them. Now, could two people fall in love for other reason’s than the $10,000 check? Of course they could. But even in such cases, the very existence of that check would have an influence on their relationship.
So would people of color be marrying White people BECAUSE of the check, or because their are simply just more White people around to marry? How does one answer such a question?
@ Hugh
There are many definitions for racism, some are based on morality, others are based on science. We are all racists *to some degree.* The fact that someone calls you out on your racism does not infer that you are a bad person, or that they themselves are not racists.
Being perceived as ‘White’ at this point in human history comes with certain undeniable privileges, it also comes with certain responsibilities. Would you go down to the Navajo Reservation and then complain about how the men there don’t seem to trust you and “aren’t giving you a fair chance?”
Everything must be seen in its social and historical context, and given the way that Asians have been treated historically in the US.
- Not being allowed to bring women with them to America because the might multiply like rabbits.
- The Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882
- The Japanese Internment Camps
Just to name a VERY few of the indignities suffered. Perhaps you can see why some Asian men resent the fact that White men now seem to be quite interested in marrying their women, while conversely, White women seem markedly less interested in marrying their men. Given all of the years of oppression (in the US) and imperialism and colonization (in their home countries) you might understand where the animus may be coming from.
Yes, given the history between White people and Asian people in this country, as a White guy, you may occasionally have to take some heat for dating Asian girls. But given the larger scheme of things, it might be the better part of valor to understand why, and just let it go. After all, nobody is going to lynch you or write a law to make it illegal or have you deported.
@King:
Don’t get drawn into this guy’s rants. It’s obvious he has a hate on for Asians. If anything he is hilarious notwithstanding the racist context.
@King:
Again, you’re spot on.
@ Hugh
<First of all, I am a “white male lunatic.” Hmm. Well, that sure helps your argument when you begin by making a horrible racist comment about a whole swath of human beings based on the color of their skin. Nice. No qualifications. Just pure 100% good old-fashioned racism. And you don’t seem to really care, do you? Nice.
If me calling “a spade a spade” is offensive to you, then get thicker skin. If I’m “mean” for pointing out white male lunacy, then so be it. That doesn’t make me any less correct. Just someone who doesn’t mince words, in the face of foolishness. Deal with it and move on.
Next, who gave you the right to define exactly what “asian fetish” is? LOL. “Asian fetish” is not a defined term by any academic organ or institution that I know of, Franklin, unless you would like to cite a journal article that I have missed recently???? LOL.
Who gave me the right? It’s called common sense. You do know that there are words being added to the English dictionary at constant intervals right? So your point is moot. Now, less Strawmen please.
No. Sorry, you do not have the God-given right to create the “asian fetish” entry in the dictionary. And I say that it can most certainly be same-race. As a matter of fact, the clinical term for fetish has *nothing at all to do with race.* So, technically speaking you are completely wrong to use it racially.
No one can be this dense…seriously…
First you say that there is no definition of Asian Fetish, then you try to claim that YOU have a partial answer as to what it is (despite there being “no definition earlier”) since “it can most certainly be within Asian groups.” What kind of logic is that? Please point to me where I said that the clinical term for Fetish had to do with race. You appear to have trouble with simple comprehension. If fetish had to do with race, then the word Asian or any type of sub-categorizing word wouldn’t be slapped in front of it. And I’m sorry, but you don’t get to re-write the word fetish, just because its current definition doesn’t help you.
If “Asian Fetishizing” was included into something that is done with other Asians, they why is there no “White Fetish” label for the odd things that whites do? It’s not called that, nor would it be. It’s just called a Fetish, until it has a racial component that is meant to stand out from other groups. Paying attention to, and focusing on your own women isn’t a racial fetish. It’s just not. I’ve actually said something this before, but you intentionally ignored it. There’s a reason why I called it “Lunacy” earlier. Thanks for reminding readers as to why.
But no, it is clear to me that some Asian men are totally obsessed with Asian women. Much more than white men. Asian women are the keys to their self-worth — IF (and this is a big if) Asian men can convince these women that white men who date asian women all have the so-called “asian fetish.” Yes! Then these women will see that Asian men are the best for them.
And this only helps my argument. EVERY race (generally speaking, as there are individuals) is favorable towards the women of their own groups. Thats nature. We like what is familiar to us. This can be proven when you see that white men are more favorable towards white women, Black with Black, Hispanic (even though that’s not a race) with Hispanic…so forth and so on. You have no proof that Asian women are the keys to an Asian Male’s individual worth. That’s just you being illogical, yet again.
Once again, jumping through hoops to defend White Male Degeneracy. The REAL WMD’s! Not “Weapons of Mass Destruction!”
@Franklin
“If me calling “a spade a spade” is offensive to you, then get thicker skin. If I’m “mean” for pointing out white male lunacy, then so be it. That doesn’t make me any less correct. Just someone who doesn’t mince words, in the face of foolishness. Deal with it and move on.”
LOL Frank. I love your racist logic. You have the right to offend the hell out of me, but of course, I am a “White Male Degenerate” as you put it.. OH wait, let’s use your exact words about me: “White Male Degeneracy. The REAL WMD’s! Not “Weapons of Mass Destruction!” Just business as usual for some Asians like you who feel like they have the right to inflict on different groups the very racism that they cry out against. Congratulations for being so predictable, Frank. LOL!
And no, I do not back down from the fact that some Asians are obsessed with themselves and then inscribe that fetish onto the non-Asian world. What? You went out with that Asian women and you don’t admit that you have a racist Asian fetish, white boy?! LOL.
Um, sorry. I am not obsessed with Asia and I am not obsessed with Asian women. But I am interested in Asia. And sometimes I date Asian women. All of them have been very interesting, unique and enjoyable human beings. They were sure of themselves, and they were not swayed by what family and friends thought about them dating a non-Asian. And some of the hate was painful for a couple of these women. It’s really sad sometimes. But I also date other races, too, of course.
But some Asians are so obsessed with themselves that they literally lose the ability to believe that other people groups might not be obsessed with Asia(ns), too.
And please that I do not in any way hate Asia. Many Asians are not like this at all. They are perfectly comfortable with themselves as Asians and they don’t try to suck up to any other race. I know Asian men who are perfectly secure in their Asian-ness as a male, and do not need Asian women to reject other races to feel good about themselves. So I am NOT on the stereotype bus, here.
But it’s true: some Asian men are obsessed with Asian women because they need Asian women to reject non-Asian men to feel good about themselves. It’s just so obvious. Of course, not all Asian men are like that at all; and not all Asian women are obsessed with themselves and think all white men “fetishize” them, but many are. Some of these women are just flat creepy the way they insist that I am obsessed with them. It’s gross and offensive. Especially when they are not even attractive! Sheesh!
As far as the term “fetish” it is obvious that one can use the term in multivalent ways. Please. Grow up, and get over your insistence that there is only one usage. LOL. And everyone knows that there is also a “white fetish” that some Asian women have. (of course not all of them) So I guess the road goes both ways.
I propose that we lose the term “fetish” when talking about either direction. I think it is terribly unfair to label an Asian women who is simply interested in white men with a “white fetish” in the same way that it is terribly unfair to label a white man interested in an Asian woman as having an “asian fetish.” Will there be bizarre weird Asian women chasing after white men with a “white obsession”? Maybe a few here and there, sure. Will there be a few bizarre weird white men chasing after Asian women with an odd obsession for asian women? Sure, a few here and there.
But we have to make the big distinction here, folks. These people are off-balance and in the extreme minority.
In the end, it’s the stereotypes that get everyone into trouble on both sides…… jus’ sayin…..
Uh oh…I’ve learned the hard way to beware of anything ending with “just sayin”… lol
@ Hugh
First of all I’m not Asian, I’m black.
Second of all, if at any point you feel that you want to debate anything I’ve said, then I’ll wait for a proper response. Random interjections of “LOL” in place of substance tell me just how unequipped you are in this discussion. As you haven’t been able to refute anything I’ve said. Unless you think that outright ignoring my factual and logical points counts as a proper refutation…
Instead, like a predictable and deflective know-nothing, you took the easy road and focused on my opinion of you, while not commenting on the actual debate at hand. Even laughably responding with Red Herrings and repeating your earlier comments that I didn’t even really say/hint at/accuse you of. Which only increases the accuracy of my earlier opinions of you. Keep it up. This is getting easier and easier.
@ Franklin
Well Frank, it doesn’t matter what color you are: you’re a racist if you think it’s OK to call me names like that. Flat out. Glad you are comfortable with that? And you’re attacks on my intelligence not only do not work, but they diminishe your arguments as well. Sorry bout that. Further, as a black man, you are catagorizing me in stereotypical ways that only proves that you are trying to fight white racism with black racism. News flash: that will never work. We have to BOTH stop altogether.
Further, I have made very salient points that you are obviously unwilling to acknowledge? I answered your silly argument that you have the right to actually define “asian fetish” as a racial structure, or as That’s interesting. But whatever. I stand by my point that it is multivalent in meaning. Further, I disagree that someone cannot fetishize someone from the same race — again, if you insist on using the term “fetish” it goes both ways. You say it’s impossible; I say it is. I guess we will just disagree.
My point concerning the term “Asian fetish” is this: I believe that IF it is going to be forced onto white men, then said “fetish” will apply in multiple directions. That is, if Asians insist that I have a “fetish” just because I date Asian women or am interested in Asia, then they also have a fetish in similar ways for themselves because they assume that my behavior is fetishistic. Is there a “white fetish”? For some whites, sure. Some whites think White is best. But not many at all are like that. It is the same with Asians. And blacks too for that matter. All races have segments that fetishize themselves, and that same segment in turn has the illusion that others must do the same thing. I guess you did not read my previous post when I stated that I think we should do away with it altogether on both sides of the fence.
My whole point has been that we need to stop — all of us — stereotyping. It has gotten the world nowhere. And it never will.
To Hugh, King, and Franklin,
If a guy is in a Heterosexual relationship with someone of another race and they dislike the men of that race then I think they are making a big mistake. What if you are a White guy who likes Asian women but dislikes Asian men and has a male child with her. I have seen multiple examples of mixed race Asian/White kids who look more Asian than White. Your kid might identify more with his Asian side (and I know of several examples..) so what would the relationship with your son be like…? There are also Black men who date and/or marry White women but dislike White men.. what if you son looks heavily White? I also know of several examples of biracial White/Black mixed people who are phenotypically White.
Then of course there are fathers, brothers, uncles, male cousins, etc of the woman…it would seem a serious relationship would have problems if you had some sort of racial resentment against the in laws. (Of course resentment again ones in laws can certainly occur among people of the same race…)
To King:
Well, it’s a difficult proposition because of our old friend, ‘white privilege.’ It’s as if each White person is walking around with a $10,000 check safety-pinned to their clothing which would be given to the person who marries them. Now, could two people fall in love for other reason’s than the $10,000 check?
Men of Northeast Asian descent make as money per capita as White guys…so I don’t think cash is the equation there…. Are you saying that Black men who marry of cohabitate with White women ….also White women only make about 1% more money per capita as Black men so I think overall money is part of the equation there either.
Uncle Milton, I think you’re taking my little analogy a bit too literally. I didn’t mean to imply an actual economic advantage.
What I’m talking about is the social currency of Whiteness—the advantages in this society of being White. Those advantages can be “cashed in” on from time to time, when others of less celebrated ethnic lineage are left destitute of any social capital.
To some ethnic women, having lighter-skinned offspring is seen as an advantage in society. Also, the idea that an ethnic woman (or man) was good enough to get a trophy White person has known to have been an occasional influence.
And then, there actually is an economic angle as well. It is true that Asian men earn as much (and sometimes more) than White men, but they also tend to be more highly educated than White men in order to achieve that.
The common blue collar Asian factory worker is still less likely to be promoted than his blue collar White counterpart (all other things being equal).
That is what I meant.
To King:
To some ethnic women, having lighter-skinned offspring is seen as an advantage in society. Also, the idea that an ethnic woman (or man) was good enough to get a trophy White person has known to have been an occasional influence.
What I’m talking about is the social currency of Whiteness—the advantages in this society of being White. Those advantages can be “cashed in” on from time to time, when others of less celebrated ethnic lineage are left destitute of any social capital.
In my experience Asian Indians often do seem to find lighter skin to be preferable but this rarely translates to South Asian immigrant women marrying White men. As for East Asians and their attitudes towards general White traits I have heard quite a few negatives. Our noses are too big, we are too hairy, too heavy, and we smell funny…we have light skin yes, but it looks unhealthy, it’s pastey and ruddy to many Asians…especially as we age. Oh yeah.. Whites age too quickly. Supposedly among Asian immigrants to the US there is a common belief that many Whites are a bit lazy and not quite as smart as East Asians.
Among the East/South East Asian immigrant guys (well they moved to the US when they 8 and 14 respectively..) that I have known who have been the most successful with White women… have been Filipino. They were both into music, good dancers, and were very confident in themselves. From what I could gather .. what they brought to the table was a generally better understanding of what White American women liked (and didn’t like..) in men than some guys from Northeast Asia. (or for that matter the White guys from the US…)
Well sometimes it’s the light skin, sometimes it’s the round eye, sometimes it’s hair texture, or eye color.
Basically, its just a way to look closer to the all American norm—to be accepted as more “us” and less “them.”
And believe me, it affects ALL minorities including East Asians.
To King:
Basically, its just a way to look closer to the all American norm—to be accepted as more “us” and less “them.”
And believe me, it affects ALL minorities including East Asians
I am sure it does but it hasn’t seemed to have affected Indian immigrant women’s choices for men. They seem to strongly prefer South Asian men over White guys. This from a country which has English as an official language. (which basically all the educated people speak with fluency..) while Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and Thailand which were never colonized by Whites and retain their national languages.
In that light describing the relative greater interest by East Asian vs South Asian women towards White guys as being due to colonialism (as is often the case when I read lefty boards like Feminista..) seems to be a logical error. Something else is going on in those cultures.
Are you then saying that because South Asian women have not respond to colonialism in the same way that East Asian women have, that neither response can be tied to colonialism?
To King:
Are you then saying that because South Asian women have not respond to colonialism in the same way that East Asian women have, that neither response can be tied to colonialism?
I specifically mentioned Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan because they had never been colonized by Whites. Granted Japan and South Korea host US troops (which are generally not looked upon with favor..) but Taiwan was never occupied by US troops nor colonized by Whites yet women from there and daughters of Taiwanese immigrants seem to out marry and date Whites at a rather high rate.
Japan was not formerly colonized, but after their defeat in WWII, they were occupied and restructured by the Allied forces (mostly American) which accomplished much the same psychological impact.
But even cultures who were not directly colonized have been dominated economically, and exposed to self-aggrandizing Western media and literature for decades. If your entire geographical neighborhood is essentially at the mercy of, and influenced by the Eurocentric West, then the motivation of the ‘colonized mindset’ cannot so easily be swept aside.
It’s kind of like saying that if your father was a child molester, but he only directly molested your sister, that you could somehow not be influenced by it, because he never crawled in your bed.
No, I think that Japanese, South Korean, and Taiwanese women are just as motivated by the results of colonization. They have still been exposed to the idea and imagery that White men are symbolic of the worldwide ruling class and that coupling with them might bring the attached advantages.
To King:
Japan was not formerly colonized, but after their defeat in WWII, they were occupied and restructured by the Allied forces (mostly American) which accomplished much the same psychological impact.
That’s why I narrowed the discussion to Taiwan… that and the US has received few Japanese immigrants in the last 50 years, so they are hardly part of the equation when it comes White male / Asian female relationships in the US. So why again are East Asian women susceptible to White propaganda but South Asian women are not..? Also why are White women choosing Black men at a rate 70% higher than Asian women are choosing White men…? Is the White global propaganda machine employed by the US painting Black men in a positive light more so than Asian women…?
“So why again are East Asian women susceptible to White propaganda but South Asian women are not..?”
I am not familiar enough, but I would assume there is some other factor in their culture that prevents them from reacting in the same manner as East Asian women have.
Black women also have a much harder time trusting White men than Black men seem to have in trusting White women, even though Black men and women suffered under the same oppression in the United States. They just process and react the experience differently.
“Also why are White women choosing Black men at a rate 70% higher than Asian women are choosing White men…?”
Probably because Black men have historically been kept away from them upon pain of death (for the Black man, of course) Forbidden fruit, yada yada… etc.
You want to know about Asian fetish? Here ya go.
http://www.bannedinhollywood.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/love-fail.jpg
@ leigh
Yikes! She doesn’t look terribly happy does she?
@King:
Poor thing. She looks absolutely miserable.
She’s probably wondering when that big Polar Bear is going to eat her.
^^WOW that looks really bad.
To leigh204
You want to know about Asian fetish? Here ya go.
That looks like they are in the Philippines… in reality not a very common sight in the US…
Would it be acceptable to you if I posted a photo of a slender Black man with an obese White woman and said “You want to know about White fetish? Here ya go.”
I mean after all Leigh in the US, White women marrying or cohabitating with Black men is 70% more common White men marrying or cohabitating with Asian women and occasionally you do see slender Black men with obese White women.
Or would you think that is a false stereotype (as I do ) that in reality would apply to less than 5% of BM/WF couples..?
@Uncle Milton:
This post is about Asian fetish. Hence, I found a pic of a heavy, white guy and Asian woman. I see lots of fat white guys with slender Asian women where I’m from.
To Leigh204:
I see lots of fat white guys with slender Asian women where I’m from.
It’s not very common in Northern California…what’s going on with the women..?
As for the photo… well what can I say.. likely an arrangement of sorts… she’s hired herself out or effectively has. Problematic at multiple levels but not necessarily an example of an Asian fetish. I doubt that guy would turn away a slender White woman if she were available to him.
@Uncle Milton:
I doubt that guy would turn away a hamburger if given the opportunity.
To Leigh204:
I doubt that guy would turn away a hamburger if given the opportunity.
Make that two orders and super size them with an order of large fries and an extra large coke….
Yeah… that guy does not “represent..”
@ Uncle Milton:
“… it hasn’t seemed to have affected Indian immigrant women’s choices for men. They seem to strongly prefer South Asian men over White guys. This from a country which has English as an official language. (which basically all the educated people speak with fluency..) while Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and Thailand which were never colonized by Whites and retain their national languages.”
A few factors are at play here.
* South Asian religious and cultural traditions (Hindu, Muslim, Sikh) mean that there is a great deal of expectation to marry within that faith/ethnic group. East and Southeast Asians are quite different, in that religious fervor is generally not so important. Buddhism and other traditions (Taoism, Shintoism, etc) are less rigid, and China has never been strongly religious anyway. This is why many East Asians in the West have become Christian to an extent that South Asians have not. Filipinos were already Catholic. So religion and culture are not great obstacles to intermarriage for East Asians, but it’s still a matter worthy of great consternation for many South Asian families.
* Related to the previous point, South Asian culture is more strongly patriarchal than East Asian culture. This means that greater emphasis is placed on controlling “their” women; ie. their is social resistance to outside men trying to date the women.
* Skin colour. I’m just guessing here, but you’d have to imagine that white men, who generally have a preference for lightish skin, might well be somewhat more disposed to lighter-skinned East Asians than darker South Asians.
* Length of settlement. I’m not so sure about the US, but here in Australia, the East Asian community is longer-established than the South Asian community. This means a greater level of integration with the white mainstream.
Ah… Eurasian is basically filling in the blanks that I was saying that I’m not familiar with. But I though as much.
“I am not familiar enough, but I would assume there is some other factor in their culture that prevents them from reacting in the same manner as East Asian women have.”
@Leigh204
I love it. A picture of two people at a train station, and you label it “asian fetish.” You’re just an insecure asian guy posing as a woman, aren’t you? LOL. Or a racist, self-obsessed asian woman who is most likely not very attractive. But the goal is to hate white men. That actually happens a lot on blogs like this…
@King
Here’s another example of usage of an analogy goes both ways: if you say white people “colonized” Japan after WWII…. then yo Japan surely “colonized” many other areas in utterly inhumane and horrible ways. jus sayin…….We never hear about the Asian male leadership of the horrible Japanese imperial forces (READ: COLONIZATION) for some 30 (some would say 45) in NE Asia from about 1900 – 1945 when the Korean peninsula was split in two by the Soviets and the US.
Let me remind you it was flat evil some of the things the Japanese did. and it was not in retaliation of something. (hint: Rape of Nanking, 1937, etc).
Here’s the difference that needs to be made: Japan *colonized*, but the US forces *occupied*. And the US forces *had no choice.* BIG BIG DIFFERENCE, LOL.
YO — They bombed our homes ina surprise attack in 1942. What provoked Japan to colonize first Korea, then Manchuria, then China, then many other nations in the region? NOTHING. SHEESH….. They forced countless millions under their authority and military skill. THEY ROUNDED UP KOREAN ‘COMFORT WOMEN’ FOR DECADES AND RAPED THEM WITH IMPUNITY……. Nanking was just a peak of how they ruled and oppressed and persecuted and maimed people’s lives and futures.
BUT ——– The US forces OCCUPIED and SUBDUED because JAPAN nation violently bombed Pearl Harbor. What nation would have responded differently? It should be noted that when we DID occupy we tried our best to restore the country. We could have raized it. We had the right to raize that place. And we did not.
And what about China? They are the *NEW COLONISTS*, the People’s Republic of China. All you have to do is google, “China tibet colonization occupation” and thousands of entries will come up that plainly show that China — though in a very PR-savvy, and chillingly systematic way — is literally RAPING Tibet while the world simply stands around and watch. The Dali Lama watches from Daramsala, helpless, proclaiming his ideology of non-violence while his native Tibet is swallowed, whole, by the PROC communist colonization machine. It’s really horrible.”
Further, look at how China is trying to take over regions of Africa for the resources. Just saying…new colonialism.
My point, King, is that you are making a lot of claims with only assumptions about racial effects and their *direct* correlation with dating practices of today. That’s just not possible without some hard data, and this, again, is what fuels race wars: assumptions about modern stuff that is connected to present stuff, when we do not have evidence of a connection at all; might be just incidental. Jus sayin….
>>>> But more importantly, you NEVER make a distinction between occupation and colonization. They are two different things. If you want to make a case for white colonization, you cannot do it with America at all… that would be the UK, in the c19, opium wars, treaties of Nanjing, tianjin, et all. it was all very unfair (hence “unfair treaties) and they did occupy. America commerce were part of that, but the UK led the way for sure………
The c20 is a different ball of wax.
And the main impulse for US involvement in Asia in the c20 was ASIAN COLONIZATION AND AGGRESSION IN THE FIRST PLACE.
I am an East Asian American female and dated all different races but mostly white males. The most important reason is because white males are the mostly (by number) available males at my academic and professional settings with similar backgrounds as I am (education, economy, stable family background) Also one thing that is very important many people forgot to comment is that acceptance by the family and friends on both sides (male and female) is very important also. I would not (and my asian friends also) date or marry a man if I am not accepted by his family and friends and same for him getting accepted by my family and friends. In other words, race is not the foremost issue here but more of the similar values, socio-economic backgrounds, and cultural acceptance/open-mind on both side. Yes I do have several AF/WM couples around me but none were looking for Asian female or White male in particular with racial stereotypes in mind. Simply these couples met on natural settings where most couples usually meet (school, work, social setting/friends) because they had similar qualities that they were looking for in their potential mates.
Marie11
I agree with you that what you point out does accout for *some* of the AF/WM couplings, but it doesn’t seem to address the interracial disparity between AF/WM couplings and AM/WF pairings.
for example, take 2006 in the USA
http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/hh-fam/cps2006.html
Here are the numbers aggregated for convenience:
AM/WF marriages: 174,000
AF/WM marriages: 530,000
We seem to find this vast difference in interracial marriage statistics in every country in which Whites comprise the majority and Asians comprise a significant minority.
So, we are stuck with the problem of the numbers always painting a picture of Asian women “outdating” at a much higher rate than Asian men. Nevertheless, many Asian women (such as yourself) believe this disparity to be the result of statistically predictable ethnic cross exposure rather than ethnic value selection.
I guess the question that I would ask is why it doesn’t work the same way for Asian men?
LOL! Yeah, Hugh, you got me figured out buddy. *rolls eyes*
“Also one thing that is very important many people forgot to comment is that acceptance by the family and friends on both sides (male and female) is very important also. I would not (and my asian friends also) date or marry a man if I am not accepted by his family and friends and same for him getting accepted by my family and friends. In other words, race is not the foremost issue here but more of the similar values, socio-economic backgrounds, and cultural acceptance/open-mind on both side.”
Again, this makes some sense, but you also have to consider that if everybody in society simply conformed to the expectations and comfort zones of their friends and family, then society would never change for the better. SOME people must be willing to step outside of the norm, and actually *challenge* their little circle of friends and say, “Why can’t you be comfortable with this?” You cannot assume that your friends initial discomfort will not be transformed by your own open mindedness and bravery.
It is alway easiest to simply “fit in.” But sometimes, it serves a higher purpose to assault the status quo, and pioneer the undiscovered county of the new, unknown and previously unacceptable.
King,
Asian females tend to assimilate to western culture a lot faster and more so than Asian males. That might explain part of the reasons why there are more AF/WM unions and a lot less AM/WF unions. Many AF/WM unions I know are mostly professionals so AF tend to go for mates who are more supportive of their career and open views on female social issues. I saw several second generation AM/WF couples around me. Second generation AM are already westernized so it is a lot easier for them to marry outside their group.
In Eastern Asian (Korea, Japan, China) culture family is very important and when you get married you are not just finding your mate. You are also bringing a new member to your family and they view it as union of two families more less. So from the very beginning, East Asian Americans have value system not just looking for your mate only and also getting accepted by your mate’s family is very important. This value system goes even down to beyond first generation but becomes diluted.
It is a lot to do with Confucius philosophy they grew up with. They have a lot of respect towards their parents and family.
@bluebird
Lisa Ling is married to an Asian man. I know. Shocking!
Funny post, however.
So… I found some information I thought would be worth sharing. I’ve read this ‘Marring Out’ study from the Pew Research Center b4, but not in the full PDF. Check pg 9 on the link. It will be easier to see the info there…
White IR marriage in 2008
-9% of WM; 8.8% of WW married inter-racially.
-WM/AW(26.9%); WW/AM(9.4%)
-WM/BW(6.9%); WW/BM(20.1%)
-Similar #’s of both genders married Hispanics & “others”
Asian IR marriage in ’08
-19.5% of AM; 39.5% of AW married inter-racially
-AM/WW(70.9%); AW/WM(76.8%)
-AM/BW(4.8%); AW/BM(7.2%)
-AM/HW(17.7%);AW/HM(9.5%)
So I noticed that 4 the newlyweds in ’08 WW & WM have similar rates married to another race/ethnic. About half of whites 4rm both genders are w/ Hispanics. WM r more likely to marry an AW than a BW & WW are more likely to marry a BM than an AM. I guess if White men have an Asian fetish WW must have a Black fetish…(not sure if either is tru)
Asians also differ in marriage patterns. AW are obviously more likely to marry non-Asian. When they do go out, their 1st choice is a BM & an AM’s 1st pick is Hispanic.
Note:Keep in mind these are the #’s for Newlyweds in ’08. Not all married couples. Out of all currently married whites 4.7% are w/ POC(guess that term is useful) at a similar # for both gender. Currently married Asians-9.3% AM; 21.&% AW.
http://pewsocialtrends.org/files/2010/10/755-marrying-out.pdf
@Cynic,
Thank you for the link. Very interesting article!
On page 8, I found the statistics on what I wrote above regarding disparity of AM and AF marrying out. Here look at it closely,
“The native born AM marry out 4 (400%) times than foreign born AM.”
In my personal observation, the foreign born AM still hold very rigid Asian cultural values (more male dominant culture) which are not suited for marrying out. But the native born AM hold Westernized values which make them a lot more suitable for marrying out. The foreign born AF marry out at high percentage because Western cultural values are more female friendly compare to Asian cultural values and AF tend to assimilate to Western cultural values a lot faster and more so than the foreign born AM. The below article is from the link (page 9).
==============================
The disparity among
native- and foreign-born Asians is not as great,
but it is still significant; native-born Asian-
Americans are nearly twice as likely as those
who are foreign born to marry a non-Asian.
Here again, there are sharp gender differences.
Among Asian men, the native born are nearly
four times as likely as the foreign born to marry
out. Among Asian women, the native born are
only about 50% more likely than the foreign born to marry a non-Asian.
” You’re just an insecure asian guy posing as a woman, aren’t you? LOL. Or a racist, self-obsessed asian woman who is most likely not very attractive. But the goal is to hate white men. That actually happens a lot on blogs like this…
Your an overly offensive white woman posing as a white man. You are bitter, jealous, and most likely unattractive:
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS-pgGCXMOlR9J-j5hqeRq1NMfqLtrTJTHLbuD4izGatouUFVIE
Or a self-obsessed racist white man:
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSnIr6tZJeBlw9OiL5_w1KfWwTt-BQF26dEUxrf3kPNdDG5SR5f
But your goal is to hate the asian men, hence you troll blogs such as this to vent these negative feelings!! Good day madam, or is it sir?!
@Hugh: This is a post about Asian fetishists, not the history of Japan during WWII. Capiche? Oh, and Hugh, leave Leigh alone as she is a fellow Canuck!
@Herneith:
Aww, Herneith. Thank you for defending me against this horrible, HORRIBLE person. LOL!
We Canucks stick together, eh?
Much love, girl.
@Herneith
“But your goal is to hate the asian men, hence you troll blogs such as this to vent these negative feelings!! Good day madam, or is it sir?!”
Who were you referring to?
I mam following the comment thread.
Thanks.
well i must say that this has just been fascinating
And I also must post specifically to Heneith’s bizarre post above, complete with bizarre photo-shopped pictures of white men! LOL! More bizarre entertainment from insecure asian men!
Says Herneith:
“Your an overly offensive white woman posing as a white man. You are bitter, jealous, and most likely unattractive”
LOL. Ok, I am an “overly offensive white woman… bitter, jealous…” Right. So tell me, Herneith, why in the world would a “bitter, jealous, unattractive” white women defend white men, buddy?! LOL. Not that there are NOT jealous white women – they are jealous of asian women sometimes. But that would give them motive to *demonize* white men — and the do sometimes — but not DEFEND white men that have relationships with asian women. Um, Herneith, in your attempt to slander me with bizarre, creepy pictures and make me look like an evil hater of all things asian…. um… did you stop to think about your logic? I don’t think so.
Says Herneith:
“But your goal is to hate the asian men.”
LOL. Just go up to earlier posts, Herneith. I make it very clear that I do not think all asian men are like you.
Have a good day.
You’ve made two posts essentially saying blah, blah, blah. In other words, not mentioning anything of importance. Shoo, Hugh. Oh, and Hugh. Bite me. lol!
Oh, Herneith. We’ve ruffled his chicken feathers.
I see Hugh must really be bored to come to a blog that doesn’t agree with his “views”.
On the subject at hand I can relate to the frustrations. When I see someone dating someone of another race, I wonder if they are ginuinely interested in who that person IS as apposed to WHAT they are and the sexual, intimate myths and personality stereotypes associated with their identities. In other words are they with them for love or for sex?
When you think about it, it’s no different than dating someone of the same race and(or) gender. You wonder why the person is interested in another person regardless of ethnicity. Though, it’s much more highlighted when it comes to interracial dating.
@ brothawolf
On some level, almost all sexual attraction is based on fantasy and mythology. Black guys “fetishize” an ideal Black woman (who does not exist in real life). Everybody does this to some extent. It just becomes more obvious when you date a person of another culture/ethnicity.
Abagond:
Asian women are free-agents, therefore, they can sleep with, date, and marry whom they please. They’re not joined at the hip to asian men, and whitewomen have the same mindset. Asian women from the mainland, and those who hail from south asia behave in the same way, as it relates to inter-racial romance with non-asian men. White and yellow complexioned asian women tend to like whitemen by and large, and the brown and caramel complexioned asian women like white and blackmen, some more, some less. Personally, I think asian women from Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Myanmar, Indonesia, and Malaysia are some of the most beautiful women on the planet, and that’s a wonderful thing. Blackmen should be able to acknowledge beauty in other women of color, and be okay with it at the same time. But, in order for that mindset to take hold, blackmen have to love themselves and blackwomen as well. The greatest gift that blackmen can give to all women on this planet, is, love of self and blackwomen. As blackmen, we want the crown and all the perks that come with it, but not the responsibility. Abagond, if we want all the women to worship at our feet, we gotta take care of home first. I want blackwomen to remember this equation, as it relates to blackmen and inter-racial relationships……1+4=1 Blackmen…Blackwomen…Whitewomen…Asian Women…Native-American Women. Sistas, understand the racial and sexual dynamics that are at play on the planet?
Tyrone
Reality Mode
Leigh204 says “bite me.” That’s pretty bizarre since you are an insecure asian male parading as an asian woman. Um – I think I’ll pass on “biting you” Leigh204. Thanks, though. LOL.
On a more serious note, I am not sure why my prior post was deleted concerning further thoughts about this guy, but here is a run-down. In the end, Leigh204′s posts are unlettered and unintelligent. It is par on course for blunt racism: no thought — just demonize a whole group of people wholesale, in the fastest, easiest way. Doing it anonymously on a blog is the easiest way. Add this to the fact that they guy has serious insecurity issues that need to be worked out with a professional psychologist.
I am not saying that this is only an Asian male issue. As a white man, I know that there are plenty of insecure white men. They are in the exact same category as insecure asian men who wants to make white men look evil and predatory. (IE: Leigh204) I’ve seen it countless times. Some asian men market and promote the idea that white men are all fat, stupid and “obsessed” with asian women. It’s dehumanizing, racist nonsense.
My point is that the reckless dehumanization of males of all races needs to stop. White male stereotyping of asian men needs to stop also. And insecure white men who flit around the web posting things about asian male penis-sizes are ridiculous insecure dumb-asses who should be categorized in the same way that Leigh204 should be. Ultimately, it is not a racial issue, it is an insecurity issue. But white men must stop recklessly stereotyping males of other races.
We must aggressively see ourselves as MEN, in our maleness together, trying to work out our stuff together in a messed up world. Is that possible? I’m not sure. But it is better than all men from different races constantly looking over our shoulders, constantly trying to make our race look better, or that “other” race look bad.
This is a clarion call to men of ALL races to come together – not around our differences – but around our common desire to live in peace.
Hugh
It’s very amusing how someone like Hugh constantly talks about insecure Asian men.
Talk about obsessed. lol!
D
So tell me, Herneith, why in the world would a “bitter, jealous, unattractive” white women defend white men, buddy?! LOL.
In the hopes of gettting a leg-over or a date from them? Who knows?
Um, Herneith, in your attempt to slander me with bizarre, creepy pictures and make me look like an evil hater of all things asian…. um… did you stop to think about your logic? I don’t think so.
That’s just it ‘Hugh’, there is no ‘logic’ to my post, but then the same could be said for yours. I was spoofing your replies dear.
LOL. Just go up to earlier posts, Herneith. I make it very clear that I do not think all asian men are like you.
I should hope not as I am not asian nor am I a man, LOL, hardy har hoo and so on and so forth.
In the end, Leigh204′s posts are unlettered and unintelligent.
How else do expect people to respond to nonsense? Analyze it, break it down, debate it? No, you offer up more nonsense!
Add this to the fact that they guy has serious insecurity issues that need to be worked out with a professional psychologist.
Are you going to pay for it?
Some asian men market and promote the idea that white men are all fat, stupid and “obsessed”
You mean they aint?
White male stereotyping of asian men needs to stop also.
Fat chance of that if they can use it to do the horizontal mambo with those broads!
But it is better than all men from different races constantly looking over our shoulders, constantly trying to make our race look better, or that “other” race look bad.
A pity that, and all in the name of getting a leg over!
This is a clarion call to men of ALL races to come together – not around our differences – but around our common desire to live in peace.
Where’s the fun in that for you men?
“On some level, almost all sexual attraction is based on fantasy and mythology. Black guys “fetishize” an ideal Black woman (who does not exist in real life). Everybody does this to some extent. It just becomes more obvious when you date a person of another culture/ethnicity.”
-King
That’s what I’m saying. We fantasize when we see someone or something that grabs our attention. We do that more so before seeing who that person is.
@ Hugh:
since you are a relative newcomer to this blog, allow me to school you briefly. Leigh204 has been commenting here for years, on virtually every issue covered. So if she is indeed an “insecure Asian man posing as an Asian woman”, I must say she has worked extremely hard to cultivate this ruse (and identity as a young Filipino-Canadian woman) all this time, JUST so she can bash white men on this thread.
Or alternatively, perhaps it’s more likely that you just don’t know what you are talking about, and hae such difficulty understanding someone else’s point of view that you have to invent things about them just so it makes sense to you.
For the record, I’m an elderly African-American woman posing as a thirtysomething half-white, half-Indonesian guy from Australia.
I love it! More hilarious entertainment from Leigh204 — our resident insecure asian guy mad at white men, parading as an asian woman. Ha! Another ditsy comment with a smiley that means nothing. LOL. I’m enjoying it though, so keep going Leigh204! It gets funnier every time! Cheers.
Herneith? “There’s no logic to your post???” Um – could not have said it better myself! I guess you said it all. LOL
I look forward to the next goofy post from Leigh204, which will consist of a ditsy comment, and a bunch of smilies in order to make his “argument.” (?!)
LOL!
Have a great one, mates,
Hugh
@Eurasian Sensation:
Ahh, my dear man, Hugh has nothing better to do, but to argue for the sake of arguing. Look at his posts. His obsession with Asian men is, for a lack of a better word, highly disturbing. He must love to to hear himself prattle on and on. lol! And as you know, I don’t need to justify myself to the likes of Hugh. Not that I needed it, but thank you for coming to my defense. We all know Hugh’s the insecure one here.
Careful Eurasian Sensation,
You forget that you are suspected of being a secret racist! I realize that no actual links have been given as evidence, but still… You are in no position to vouch for leigh204 Lol!
I wonder when people will finally understand that this is the internet. You either accept that people are who they say, of else you just decide that nobody is who they say, and turn it off.
Personally, I’m just waiting for someone to decide that I’m an 40-year old White divorcee. Because I will take that opportunity to Ad Hominem them so HARD that they won’t be able to walk the next morning!!
@ King:
“I wonder when people will finally understand that this is the internet. You either accept that people are who they say, or else you just decide that nobody is who they say, and turn it off.”
I must say that the “eternal suspicion” option sounds rather more fun. With that in mind, I’m going to guess that all the middle-aged white male commenters are actually young lesbians from Damascus, Hugh is an Asian woman in a relationship with a white man and who refuses to date Asian men, while xxxphantomxxx is a 14 year-old white gangsta rap fan from Idaho, and Abagond is an Indian woman writing this blog from a call centre in Calcutta.
Lol Focus on the topic, people.
Well, It doesn’t really matter whether leigh204 is male or female, her posts fit the pattern that I have seen many times. Asian men do pose as asian women, get called out, and then disappear. In the end, if she is female then WOW – she is after white men for some reason, as I will show below. She has not nuanced any arguments. She has not made any salient points. She has simply demonized WM/AF relationships. Period. That is why I responded to her nonsense.
But this is characteristic of the Asian community sometimes. Not all of them in any way, but some of them (like Leigh204) simply choose to be creepy about everything. They have no real reason to demonize these relationships based on racial makeup. They *just do.* And that is creepy.
Take the post Leigh204 made to this very thread on on Wed 30 Mar 2011 at 04:27:
You want to know about Asian fetish? Here ya go.
http://www.bannedinhollywood.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/love-fail.jpg
The link is now dead, but it used to be a picture of a big fat white guy with an average looking asian woman. Absolutely perfect to prove my point that Leigh204 simply wants to demonize relationships between AW and WMs. It’s creepy. She gives no arguments. She just shows us an image of two people sitting down in a train station. But the disturbing part is that we are led to believe that the fat white guy has some sort of “obsession” with Asian women. We are subtly being led to believe that ALL white men with Asian women have this. And of course, all white men with Asian women are overweight losers. Right?
But wait: do we know this guy? Do we know the woman? Do we know this situation? Does Leigh204 care about the real lives of these two human beings? LOL – it’s obvious what she thinks about these two people. She wants to take a picture she googled (I’m sure it was “fat white guy asian woman”) and use it be become the visual signifier for something evil and repulsive.
But let’s see how other posters replied to her post of the pic of the big disgusting fat white guy. Surely they pointed out the flaw here, right? They caught the fact that this is really unfair, of course, only focusing on physical appearance, race, and conjecture to make these dehumanizing judgments, right?
Wrong.
Wed 30 Mar 2011 at 05:03:10
King
@ leigh: Yikes! She doesn’t look terribly happy does she?
Wed 30 Mar 2011 at 05:27:55:
leigh204
@King: Poor thing. She looks absolutely miserable.
Wed 30 Mar 2011 at 05:31:10
King
She’s probably wondering when that big Polar Bear is going to eat her.
Wed 30 Mar 2011 at 05:44:41
Aiyo
^^WOW that looks really bad.
I just love it. And then many of the same people turn around and call me “racist.” You all are reifying the very racism you decry. You are doing the very things — detestable things — that white people did in the past as they attempted to marginalize other racial groups and maintain hegemony. Are you becoming the very thing that you hate? Creating repulsive, gross monsters for you and your friends to demonize and rally against?
And this is the Leigh204′s who says that I – ME – I am “obsessed,” the things I say are “disturbing.” Right? LOL. And she is THE CREEPIEST one of them all when she makes no effort to know people before she labels them as such! The two people sitting in a train station are no longer human beings who simply love each other; they are ugly, fat, disgusting robots who have no volition or ability or right to be in love with each other, or to sit and have a snack in a public place. They should be thrown in jail for their disgusting stupidity and repulsive acts, right? Oh wait – maybe we should put labels on their clothing? Like a big yellow arm band with a big “F” which means, of course, “fetish.” Hmm.. this is sounding vaguely familiar somehow to a past era… hmm….
And trust me: I’ve dealt with the Leigh204 type many times. Many of them are convinced that all men think Asians are the most beautiful race. Seriously. And because many Asians believe this silly mythology, they then inscribe the myth onto me, as a white man. If you believe you are better than every other race of women, then how can white men NOT obsess about me as an Asian woman—even if I am not physically attractive?
But I find this Asian mythology that everyone is obsessed with Asian women to be fascinating, actually. As I have said, I am decidedly NOT obsessed with Asian women. I find ALL women attractive. And not that there are not really attractive, solid asian women out there who are wonderful people. I’ve dated them. They are completely different than Leigh204.
My point is that Asian women many times are obsessed with themselves to the point that they think they are the most attractive race among women. LOL. But the creepy part of it is when then they inscribe their self-obsession onto white men who simply say in our minds, “Oh – she seems like an interesting person. Maybe I will ask her out for a coffee….” Then the “asian obsession” army kicks in and we are all “obsessed with asian women” just because we went out for coffee! LOL.
It’s actually entertaining when I date an asian woman, and other asian women feel that they have the ability to judge our relationship as somehow not valid simply because I am white—and she is Asian. The Leigh204′s instantly label us, making it clear they disapprove. Do they know us? Do they try to understand why we are together? Do they care? Well, of course not. It’s so racist that it makes my hair curl. But unfortunately, it happens sometimes. Oh well.
But I have to say something here. You non-Asian women need to remember that this Asian mythology that you are not as attractive is complete nonsense. But black women are unique as well, and I have no idea why black women feel they are somehow inferior to Asian women! That is not true. Black women are incredible people. I have dated some. Women from every race have different physical characteristics, and as Tyrone pointed out, there is nothing wrong with being attracted to some of those characteristics – it is called “attraction” and it is primeval and natural and involuntary.
Finally – I have made it clear that all Asian women are not like Leigh204. Further, I have made it clear that all asian men do not troll blogs and pose as Asian women. There are many Asian folks out there who are strong, solid, healthy human beings who find no solace in trashing multicultural relationships in order to make themselves feel better. Many of them are capable of approaching an inter-racial relationship with intelligence and with honest attraction and concern for the other party.
And as for me, sorry Leigh204. I am a very successful good looking guy with an ivy-league degree. I get hit on by women of ALL races. Sorry I cannot fit your racist profile of a fat, repulsive loser white guy with asian fetish who can only get average asian women. LOL. As me and my friends look at it, people go out with their physical equivalent – regardless of race. If you are hot, you go out with Hot women; average with average; ugly with ugly. Simple as that. And it does not need to be racialized because my friends include men who are Indian, black, and asian. They go out with women of all races. My Indian buddy is engaged to a hot jewish girl with blonde hair and blue eyes. Why? Because they are confident and secure in who they are. And, THAT is what makes a human being attractive. (IE: hot)
So when I see twits like Leigh204 flit around with racialized, self-obsessed nonsense like she is, I feel the need—no, I feel compelled— to set the record straight. I’m sure she will come back with a post like “Oh, you are so dumb hugh. Go away. Tee-hee tee-hee.” LOL.
Oh, Hugh, Hugh, Hugh.
As always, I don’t have anything to prove anything to you, but for some reason, you keep trying to prove something. Tryhard, huh?
Speaking of creepy….
lol! Trying to put words into something I didn’t even say. Please try again.
@Hugh:
Yeah, I googled white guy asian woman and that’s the very first pic that showed up. *rolls eyes* Btw, this post is about asian fetish and it IS something evil and repulsive.
Ahh, more conjecturing on your part, Hugh. Btw, these posters who commented about the pic of the morbidly obese white guy and Asian woman can obviously see what you can’t or don’t want to admit. She’s absolutely miserable. Look at the way he holds on to her. He won’t let her go. Yeah, as the old saying goes, a picture says a thousand words.
@Hugh:
I find ALL women attractive. And not that there are not really attractive, solid asian women out there who are wonderful people. I’ve dated them. They are completely different than Leigh204.
Hmm. Not obsessed and yet you keep talking about Asian women and their “mythologies.” Riiiight.
Keep on talk about projecting, Hugh. I can see that’s what your true intention is.
Again, this is about Asian fetish. I must’ve hit a raw nerve.
Hey, Hugh. I have something for you. “Oh, you are so dumb hugh. Go away. Tee-hee tee-hee. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!!
Hugh, you would do yourself a favor if you simply admitted that there is such a thing as an Asian fetish. In fact, you can pretty much say the same about every ethnicity.
Is it really necessary for us to pummel you over the head with links to all the sights where White guys (mostly) are talking about their exclusive and attraction to Asian women, based on incorrect universal descriptions of them? If you want the links, just say the word, and I’ll go to work providing them.
However, if you can acknowledge that there is such a thing as an “Asian fetish,” and Leigh204 posts what she sees as an example of it in practice (on a thread entitled ASIAN FETISH) then exactly how is that out of line?
Did she say that EVERY White guy was fat?
Did she say that every ASIAN girl was unhappy?
Did she say the every WM/AF couple was the result of a fetish?
Please answer.
Sounds like Hugh really wants everyone to know that not only is there no such thing as an Asian fetish, but that he is personally not AT ALL attracted to Asian women in the slightest, and how dare you suggest he might be ignorant or prejudiced because of him setting the record straight on how unattractive he finds Asian women since he’s dated women of all colors and decided these things in, like, a totally objective manner, so that’s gotta be more important right?
Anyways, Hugh I’m with you man! All those guys talking about how “exotic” and “subservient” they find Asian women, complementing their “ageless features” and saying with pride that they have “yellow fever” are all just expressing their deep, sincere, and not at all fetishizing love for this one particular group of women from a different race that they simply refuse to date outside of because all those other women are b!tches y’know?
Yep. It all makes sense now. God I love the internet.
@ King:
We both did agree that earlier in this thread. I also mentioned that I strongly believe there is an Asian male-Asian female “fetish.” (if we use that term “fetish”) Ultimately, I have no problem admitting that there is a very small minority of people – of all races, and connecting with the secondary race or primary race – who you might say are “obsessed” with that particular racial/ethnic makeup for one reason or another. It is *certainly* not just WM > AF in any way. And they are certainly the small minority. (Also, the word “fetish” – technically – refers to a physical object that people use to facilitate a sexual experience. So to me, it is just a pop-moniker that has negative connotations that leads to inaccurate understanding.)
I am sure that Leigh204 appreciates you coming to her defense, because she sure cannot defend herself. Her responses are classic non-responses. No surprise there.
But her kind are dangerous because of how easily you accept her “proof” of said “fetish” in the form of a *photograph.* The big question here is *HOW DO WE KNOW* that there is some rare obsession, in the popular sense that we throw this term around? My argument is that we cannot know by outward appearances, skin color, ethnicity, or language. To know if someone is clinically “obsessed” with something/someone is a very careful consideration/judgment that can be made only after one knows the party very well.
A photograph, or a passing glance, is NOT ENOUGH. That is reminiscent of past injustices to non-whites. (It also reminds me of modern racial profiling.) People were judged and convicted simply because of their skin color. What if the Leigh204 photograph were of a black man and a white woman in a train station in 1935 in Alabama and Leigh204 were a white woman showing it around to her racist friends? “Look! The white woman looks so miserable with this black man. It’s gross. He is obviously obsessed with white women. And she is a weak and unattractive white woman.” (implying that black men can only get sub-par white women) “It’s just horrible!” Leigh204 insists.
But what if a white woman and a black man WERE in love in 1935, in alabama? Simply in love? What is the problem with that?
I am decidedly NOT saying it is the same thing. Obviously black people went through much more in the past (and still sometimes do) than a white man being accused of “obsessive behavior” will today. But my point is this: *that is where it ultimately leads.* It leads to reckless, careless judgments about human beings — of all races — that makes it more convenient to marginalize, accuse, demonize, and emasculate. And ultimately reject as trash.
@ Zek J Evets:
Zek. It is painfully obvious that you have only read a few posts at the end of this thread. You need to read the whole thread before you jump in with silly assumptions about what I have said – or mean – or intend – or think.
First: I never said anything like from your post: “You personally are not AT ALL attracted to Asian women in the slightest… how unattractive he finds Asian women …?”
Um. Wrong. I sometimes find Asian women attractive for a number of different reasons. I sometimes find other women of other races attractive for a number of different reasons. In fact, Zek, I said that I have dated some wonderful Asian women in the past. The women I dated were beautiful individual human beings who I found attractive in a variety of ways. No secret there, Zek. But I guess it’s a secret for you, because you never actually read the thread before you come in to trash me. Right?
Second: when you sarcastically talk about “all those guys” who say those things, I *hope* you are including Asian men, because, personally, I have never heard a *non-Asian* guy say anything from the list of odd monikers you rattle off. Not trying to trash asian guys, but *Asian men* are the ones who I have heard say things like “I just can’t see myself marrying someone without a little yellow in her skin” or “[Asian] women are the best in the world because of ____” or “Asian women age much better than ____ and that’s why I will marry one.” or “I think all white women are fat. Don’t you like Asian women, hugh?” or “Asian women are much more conservative than white women [speaking in the context of domesticity and household duties]” or “Asian women are much more loyal than white women.” or “Asian women are stronger” or “Asian women don’t bitch like European women.”
Do some white guys say that stuff? I’m sure *some* do. But I have not heard them say it. I have heard Asian guys say that stuff. (and keep in mind I know plenty of asian guys who would definitely *not* say that stuff, also)
I know I do not say it, because I think it’s silly. The Asian women I’ve known are all incredibly diverse; they are individuals who cannot be classed in specific ways. They are unique—each of them. And they all have the ability, as unique individuals, to decide who they are attracted to and who they are not attracted to.
God I love the internet.
It’s highly amusing how Hugh prattles on about Asian fetish. As I said earlier, I must’ve hit a raw nerve. Look at how worked up he gets with his wordy, bombastic posts. If it doesn’t concern him then why get worked up over it? Hmm. Curiouser and curiouser.
And as for me, sorry Leigh204. I am a very successful good looking guy with an ivy-league degree. I get hit on by women of ALL races.
Really? How much money do you make? A big paychique goes a long way with women. If you possess this attribute, than looks be damned!
It’s actually entertaining when I date an Asian woman, and other Asian women
I am sure it is, as they could use a good laugh!
So when I see twits like Leigh204 flit around with racialized, self-obsessed nonsense like she is, I feel the need—no, I feel compelled— to set the record straight.
Why Hugh, that is mighty white of you. Teaching the racialized people the error of their ways, especially Leigh! Leigh, now be thankful that there are caring white men out there correcting the errors of your ways!
But her kind are dangerous because of how easily you accept her “proof” of said “fetish” in the form of a *photograph.*</em.
Hugh, that photo is illustrative of the post itself. It in no way denotes the babble you ascribe to it. In fact, I'll hazard a guess and say it is a bit tongue and cheek. Obviously it has hit a nerve as Leigh wrote.
Hugh, you seem to have an underpinning of dislike for Asian men. Your colour blind racism is sickening to say the least. As for your contention that Leigh responds with non-responses, she doesn't have to respond to your nonsense at all. Your diatribes are a classic case of derailment if I ever read one. It contains all the classic arguments. My favourite; I am not racist because…You are! I'll second Leigh, you are dumb Hugh LOL TEEHEE hardy hoo!
Oh Hugh, since you are a 'great looking ivy league guy whom all kinds of women find to be 'hot', I presume your buddies are like minded. Hugh, are any of them into interrestial dating? I am from Mars. I am confident and exude self-assurance, that's what's makes me beautiful. Here's me with my ex-boyfriend who happens to be human:
http://www.erbzine.com/mag13/jsm74.jpg
No alien fetishist please!
@ Hugh
First, thanks for clarifying your thoughts on the existence of Asian fetish. But you missed the main point that I was addressing.
If Leigh204 posts 1 picture of 1 WM/AF couple, as an example of a possible Asian fetish relationship, is that some sort of violation, and if it is, can you explain why?
Leigh204:
LOLOL… I just *love* how you never say *anything* of substance. It’s sooo hilarious and entertaining. And then you *insist* that I have this “fetish” that is attached to your bizarre mythology that I am obsessed with you. I have to thank you, Leigh204, because I’m just so entertained each time you post! Please, please keep ‘em comin’… and can you add more smilies next time?? lol.
And Herneith:
I love it! Your argument is this: I am *racist* because I am the victim of *racism.* It’s almost like white men are complete gross animals meant to be trampled like garbage. When white men speak out that it is painful, we are to be trampled down again, because for me to speak about this dehumanization of me as a human being, is — to you — racist. Me trying to show that there is very little difference between dehumanization of human beings across all racial lines using similar patterns in history is — racist. Me trying to honestly communicate how dehumanizing, painful and hateful the propagation of certain stereotypes about white males is — racist. Me trying to make it clear that I do not think in any way that *all* Asians believe these things is — racist. Me trying to indicate that I have heard Asian men say things about Asian women that are always attributed to white men is — racist. Me trying to defend myself from silly mythologies that I am obsessed with a certain group of women is — racist.
Your view of me? I am a big, non-human, evil, white male *racist* — a piece of shit garbage white man who has come to teach all the poor lesser races how to live. I have no capacity to be hurt or dehumanized. I am the other. The beast. THE WHITE RACIST…
Really, Herneith??
Let me interrupt your racist stereotype-fest by sharing a bit about myself.
I grew up in a house where my mother would literally get livid and punish us all (two guys and two girls) when we even *whispered* jokes that were even about marginalized *white* people. They literally policed us like the racism police. I distinctly remember getting in deep trouble for telling a Polish joke when I was about 8 years old — those are *white* people. We couldn’t imagine saying something about blacks.
But my parents were love-children of the 70′s. Make love, chill out, equality, civil rights. They hated the Vietnam war. They hated the maltreatment of blacks. The culture that my generation grew up in was nothing like you imagine and insist that it is. And for you to insist all those zany things about me is flat bizarre and it betrays not the insecurity of your own race, but the insecurity of Herneith. My own mother would be utterly offended and crushed, because that is the very thing she was so against. I really, really do not think that US minorities understand exactly how anti-racist many white people are. Of course, you still have idiot white people who are racist. But there is a huge percentage of the US population of whites who are determined to continually move away from all that.
King:
I suppose that the picture really brought home to me the danger of not *clarifying* the nature of an image. Images are powerful. They have been used in history as weapons against groups tagged for vilification. As I have felt “tagged” for vilification a few different times simply because I was with an asian women, I know how it feels to be a “picture of disgust” to certain racist asians. The way that Leigh204 simply threw it out there without clarification or qualification was dangerous.
As I mentioned before, she made no effort to qualify anything. She *still* hasn’t qualified anything, but that’s probably because she doesn’t understand what I’m talking about (LOL). But she basically said, “hey look at the ugly fat white guy with the asian woman who looks miserable” and then simply stopped. The implication is this: when you see something similar to this image (IE: WM/AF pairings) the white guy is a loser and the Asian woman is miserable. That is the direct implication. And it has to be clarified. Again, what if it was a picture of a black man and a white woman? Are we allowed to make assumptions like she did? Of course we are not. The very definition of racism is to make sweeping generalizations of whole swaths of humanity — but WITHOUT qualification. That is: all black men are violent, or all Jews are dishonest, or all latinos are gang bangers… etc. The implication with Leigh204′s picture is that ALL white men are losers who happen to be with an asian woman. But that is not true. All white men with Asian women are *not* losers. And the women are *not* all miserable. No mention of that, however. And though the distinction might seem small, it is actually the very seed of larger and more disturbing forms of racial vilification and marginalization that can be discerned in terrible racist movements in the past.
Which brings me to this: unhealthy obsessions are of course real. But it must be made very clear that these are the extreme minority. I could make that “obsession” accusation about all kinds of different attractions – what about a latino man who is attracted to blondes? I know a Korean American guy who is very, very into blonde-hair and blue eyes. Do I think he has a “white girl fetish?” No. Should I? I could just as easily say he has “white fetish” in the way Asians accuse white men of having “asian fetish.” But the guy is just attracted to blonde hair and blue eyes. Who gives a care? But if a white guy says he is attracted to Asian women, then — many times — he has some bizarre “fetish.”
Yikes. I just think it is creepy how the white male / asian female combination is simply plucked from the infinite range of possible combinations of attraction and *singled-out* as an unhealthy obsession. What about when Asian men like white women? What about when white women like latino men? what about when Indian men like black women or Jewish women? What about when white men like scandinavian women?
And then, of course, what about when Asian women like white men? It can get pretty creepy and ugly in the Asian community at this point. Asian women are — sometimes, not always of course — estranged and ostrasized and vilified as whores (yes – whores – particularly with some Koreans) as their AM counterparts are dehumanized and degraded as evil white men coming to dominate them because we just cannot live unless we oppress other human beings. White men are oppressive robots who are incapable of loving another human female – particularly non-white females. Love? Hardly – white men are robots who can only oppress.
Or so the mythology goes…
Correction on the last paragraph:
“…as their WM [white male] counterparts are dehumanized and degraded as evil white men coming to dominate them because we just cannot live unless we oppress other human beings.”
Oh, Hugh-y boy:
LOLOLOL! Again, Hugh is back to enthrall us with his pointless ramblings. And please, you are obsessed with me. I’m flattered, but I’m just not interested. Sorry, your obsession is entering creepy territory. However, I’m glad you’re entertained. How else am I going to get your shorts in a knot? Whatever excites you, I suppose.
And I’d be more than happy to oblige with the smilies. 
You like that? Ooh, I have more. 
Oh, and another one for good measure. 
@ Hugh
While I can’t believe that you’re still here denying that “water is wet”. This in particular stood out to me…
Were you trying to be ironic here?
It’s almost like white men are complete gross animals meant to be trampled like garbage.
Only the ones into S&M will be trampled, for a fee of course.
When white men speak out that it is painful, we are to be trampled down again, because for me to speak about this dehumanization of me as a human being, is — to you — racist.
Not only that, it’s funny!
Me trying to defend myself from silly mythologies that I am obsessed with a certain group of women is — racist.
Hugh you can obsess on anything you want! I for example, am obsessed with handbags, Belgian chocolate, and clothes. I couldn’t give a rat’s arse as to what people think. I am certainly not going to go to a blog or any other medium to defend or explain my tastes. Any good sales on handbags up where you’re at?
I am the other. The beast. THE WHITE RACIST…
Is your special number 666? Is your real name Beelzebub?
I have no capacity to be hurt or dehumanized.
For the right fee I will help you build up such a capacity!
And for you to insist all those zany things about me is flat bizarre and it betrays not the insecurity of your own race, but the insecurity of Herneith.
Crack out the violins!
Were you trying to be ironic here?
For his sake I hope so!
So, your argument is that whenever someone sites an image as an example of what is being talked about on a thread, then that person is also obliged to qualify the image? The person posting the pic should basically stop and explain to the board exactly who that image is meant to typify, and how it ties in to the subject at hand.
This is what you think was implied:
“When you see something similar to this image (IE: WM/AF pairings) the white guy is a loser and the Asian woman is miserable.”
But this understanding of Leigh’s implication is at least equally valid:
This is an example of a WM/AF pairing that typifies the FETISH aspects of the WM/AF relationships that is the subject of this thread.”
It doesn’t really have to say anything about normal, non-fetish WM/AF relationships, now does it? That is something that you yourself are bringing to table.
King:
You’re making my point. What needed to be said in the first place was this:
“This picture doesn’t really have to say anything about normal, non-fetish WM/AF relationships.”
If you can show me where that was said, then I have no problem. And if you do not think it is important, then you have never been vilified – along with the Asian woman you are dating – to the point that you cannot take it anymore and you simply have to call it off. That has never happened with another race in my experience. Really. And this woman I was dating was utterly humiliated by some of her female and male asian friends who implied that I fetishized her.
Look, you have the this odd-ball Leigh204 actually claiming in the post above that I’m obsessed with her. (uhu – LOL) One would like to think that she is joking, but unfortunately no. There are odd Asian women like her that *actually* think this kind of thing about white men in particular. It’s bizarre and creepy and completely self-delusional. (Although I have to admit it’s hilarious)
Of course, not all Asian women are like her.
Peace,
Hugh
Hugh,
Do some white guys say that stuff? I’m sure *some* do. But I have not heard them say it. I have heard Asian guys say that stuff. (and keep in mind I know plenty of asian guys who would definitely *not* say that stuff, also)
I know I do not say it, because I think it’s silly. The Asian women I’ve known are all incredibly diverse; they are individuals who cannot be classed in specific ways. They are unique—each of them. And they all have the ability, as unique individuals, to decide who they are attracted to and who they are not attracted to.
See, when you talk out of both sides of your mouth like this, it’s hard to take you seriously. (Well, that and other things.) Just because you have not personally heard or seen something being said, or done, or whatever, doesn’t mean it doesn’t *actually* happen, and frankly I’ll take the lived experience of actual Asian people and other POC than an anonymous commenter.
But hey, that’s just me. Maybe all you need is your own TOTALLY OBJECTIVE AND NOT-RACIST mindset, some popcorn, and ample time to leave extremely long comments.
That said, you do realize White men fetishize Asian women ALL THE TIME, right? I mean, you do know that’s actually a common thing that happens, right? I’m not saying it’s necessarily the majority of White guys who like Asian women, but it is a stereotype founded on some truth, and that truth is kinda obvious to everyone here… except you.
But yes, blame it on me not having read the thread all the way through. Because apparently you’re also stalking me through the computer to check for this sort of thing? I’m flattered, but I think Leigh might get jealous if you stop stalking her to go for me =P
Ah, sorry, but in the real world, blow-up dolls don’t count as friends. As you say, “so hilarious!”
It’s interesting the commenters here see something regarding Asian fetish that you don’t and it has clearly gone over your head. Anyway, try with all your might, Hugh, I’m simply not interested, buddy. 
Oh, btw, I made some freshly popped popcorn. Have some. It’s really good! 
@ Zek J Evets:
By all means, my friend, he’s all yours. :p
King:
What if Hugh wrote a guest post about “black fetish”, cited the white commenters here who pine exclusively for black women, then posted a picture of Zek and his girlfriend looking bored and unhappy at an airport with the justification of:
“This is an example of a WM/BF pairing that typifies the FETISH aspects of the WM/BF relationships that is the subject of this thread.”
Do you think that all of the loyal “anti-racist” faithful here would quietly take a pass on such a statement?
Welcome back Randy.
I understand your “all things being equal” reverse scenario, but unfortunately, all things are not equal. In other words, you can’t simply substitute the Asian fetish phenomenon for the Afro fetish phenomenon because, although they both deal with race and attraction, they occur within a vastly different social context, and are based upon nearly diametrically opposed racial stereotypes.
Shall I explain further?
Leigh204- LOL! Aaahh – now I’m using blow up dolls? LOL! You have your little racist stereotypes all lined up in a nice row here in the thread! The ditzy entertainment continues, along with continued proof for my argument that you are self-obsessed — and convinced I am “interested” in you?? UHU. Yep. CREEEPY!! LOL. Par on course for Asian women like you, there buddy. But PLEASE dont stop posting.. it just gets better all the time, champ!!! LOL.
Have a good one,
Hugh
Hi King,
If you would indulge my curiosity, I would appreciate a further explanation.
I’ve always thought the concept of “asian fetish” was rather silly on 2 levels:
1. It attempts to syndromize rather common male sexual behavior (i.e. expressing a strong preference for one or more of an innumerable number female characteristics or features).
2. Such classification appears subjective and capriciously applied. You rarely hear of “Afro fetish” and the like.
@ Randy
Certainly. I will continue my explanation, but you brought up 2 secondary points that I’d like to address first.
I think where we get into trouble, on both sides of this debate, is with generalization. Let me be clear in saying that not every WM/AF relationship is fetish driven, neither is this the overall claim.
A guy can even “get into Asian girls” after having some form of positive exposure. He may hold stereotypical views, and cultural misunderstandings, but the difference is that in time the fantasy aspects of his attraction are self-correcting. In time, the novelty wears off and the “phase” is over. That doesn’t mean that he will never date another Asian girl again, it just means that the racial infatuation has subsided. This happens all the time in many new circumstances. I wouldn’t consider that to be representative of the syndrome.
But there is normal infatuation and there is also the Fetish/Syndrome and both exist.
Ahhh. The people getting a bit wound up here are the ones taking issue with this Asian fetish thing. Again, If it doesn’t pertain to you, why are you bothered by it? For some, it seems this post obviously hits close to home.
Zek,
Look. You commented on my post hoping to bop in and out and sound really cool and clever. You actually sounded stupid because you had not read the thread. That’s your fault, Zek, not mine.
And I just love this: “But yes, blame it on me not having read the thread all the way through.” YUP. I did. You are fully responsible for your misinformed post.
“Because apparently you’re also stalking me through the computer to check for this sort of thing? I’m flattered, but I think Leigh might get jealous if you stop stalking her to go for me.”
Ok, let me get this straight. I do my homework, write thoughtful and careful posts (because this subject is important to me) and I am “stalking you through the computer to check for this sort of thing?” LOL. Are you stoned? Do you actually think I have any knowledge of you other than your goofy post above?? LMAO.
And, Zek, I have mentioned this a couple time already, but of course, you have not read the thread carefully, so you would not know. There are obsessive attractions of every stripe. Of course white men can have an obsession for Asian women. These kinds of obsession are in the small minority. As such, Asian women can have obsessive attractions for white men, which I’ve experienced. This is in the small minority as well. My point is that some Asians have somehow plucked out the pairing of “WM/AF” as being somehow *different* than any other kind of relational structure, singling it out for intense scrutiny, with particular venom for white men.
The truth is that one can be obsessed with another human being across any number of cross-cultural pathways. But the question is this: who has the right in another couple’s relationship to determine where the line is between obsession/fetish and simple attraction? What are the differences and how do you know the difference if you are not in the relationship?
King and Randy:
I think you are bringing up two good points here that I was trying to address with my last post: generalization and determination.
Generalization:
My point has been all along that it is dangerous to generalize. As Randy says, there is this tendency to “syndromize” what is almost always just normal attraction. If a white man is interested in an Asian woman, or goes to Asia to work, or is interested in the shaolin monks, he is immediately singled out as one with a “fetish.” This is dangerous. Sometimes men are attracted to women in different ways. Doesn’t mean there is a fetish.
But that is also what Leigh204′s picture does – it “syndromizes” and generalizes based on one glance. There are many, many high quality cross-cultural relationships. Many are WM/AF. To not aggressively make this clear with respect to the extreme minority when it is based on some sort of obsession is dangerous, and ends up in people being really hurt.
Determination:
How do we determine the difference between obsession/fetish and simple attraction? Or strong attraction? Why do some people feel that they are entitled to be judge, jury, and executioner when it comes to this determination?
As King says, “But there is normal infatuation and there is also the Fetish/Syndrome and both exist.” Agreed. I would say even further that there is normal *attraction that is strong* and that that is something COMPLETELY different than any fetish or weird obsession.
We must make the distinction.
@ Randy
You can look at Asian Fetish strictly on an individual basis (how it effects individuals) or you can consider it on a societal basis (it’s widespread social/political effects). It is the latter of these two views that most activists are primarily concerned with.
If you consider the phenomenon on a social scale then you must consider things like:
1) How prevalent is the issue in the society in question?
2) How damaging or beneficial are the effects on a society-wide basis?
3) How broadly is it being propagandized in the larger society?
4) How organized and advanced are its support structures?
5) How politicized is it?
If you look at Asian Fetish and Afro Fetish and ask these same questions of both phenomenon, you will come up with very different answers. That, in a nutshell, is why they are not interchangeable scenarios.
What I have tried to do here is to refrain from repeating a lot of stuff that you all already know, and keep the answer short. The key to what I’m saying is that it’s not a question of wether Hugh or Hannu’s feelings are close to the same, it’s how those feelings fit and interact within the larger socio/political construct that makes them different.
If that doesn’t suffice, then we can go the long-winded route.
Hugh, this is you own interpretation of the meaning Leigh’s photo. You seem to be saying that NO negative images should ever be shared on this topic— at least without being followed by several paragraphs of qualifiers and disclaimers.
As a White male, you are a member of the most privileged group in all of society, I don’t think that one posted photograph without even a caption that applied it to ALL White males, is going to be a terrible image problem for you.
King,
I think you raised some excellent questions. Given the tendency for such matters to become politicized, how might one go about objectively determining the extent to which your 5 points may apply?
I’d submit that these matters appear to be self-propagating once achieving a certain level of societal recognition, and then subsequently live their lives as a social meme fed by confirmation bias.
Do you think that all of the loyal “anti-racist” faithful here would quietly take a pass on such a statement?
I for one will. Besides, I am waiting for my pizza wings, a much more exciting prospect.
1. It attempts to syndromize rather common male sexual behavior (i.e. expressing a strong preference for one or more of an innumerable number female characteristics or features).
I agree with you to a certain extent here Randy, but let me flip the script and give you my point of view as a female. There are indeed randon physical characteristics I like on a man. 1) he has to be alive and breathing. 2) doesn’t suffer from halitosis. 3) Has buttocks you can carry at tray on. 4) Muscular arms and legs! He’ll need them to carry my shopping packages 5) A substantial paycheque. Randy, the list is endless!
Again, If it doesn’t pertain to you, why are you bothered by it?
That’s the million dollar question isn’t it? Why indeed? It is probably a case of ‘you doth protest to much’! People discussing Asian fetishism ain’t going to put a dent in the overall image of white men, who as King so rightfully says are they are most priviledged in society.
If that doesn’t suffice, then we can go the long-winded route.
Think nothing of it King, you would be in good company! At least you actually make good points.
Hugh,
The truth is that one can be obsessed with another human being across any number of cross-cultural pathways. But the question is this: who has the right in another couple’s relationship to determine where the line is between obsession/fetish and simple attraction? What are the differences and how do you know the difference if you are not in the relationship?
I think your questions are quite important, but again, they don’t seem to match up with your assertions.
Me trying to show that there is very little difference between dehumanization of human beings across all racial lines using similar patterns in history is — racist.
Yes, it is when you take into account that White people in general, especially in America, face very litttle actual racism, let alone structural racism.
My point is that Asian women many times are obsessed with themselves to the point that they think they are the most attractive race among women. LOL.
So, you’re okay with making hasty generalizations about Asian women based on your limited experience, but god forbid anyone does the same with regard to White men, who by and large commit far more acts of direct & indirect oppression in our society than their POC counterparts?? And furthermore, are you then okay with condemning them for doing so while you complain that When white men speak out that it is painful, we are to be trampled down again.
I’m sorry, but hypocrites do not make good arguments. And that was just in five minutes. So try again? Or better yet, just admit you were wrong and try to learn something =/
Zek:
I have not made any “hasty generalizations.” And I am a hypocrite? You continue to drop in at the end here without reading all of my posts. Did you miss the part – right in your requote! – about “many times” Zek? That means that I am *de-generalizing* and *not* stereotyping. Get it? Let me explain it for you. If I had said “Asian women are obsessed with themselves…” then you would have had an argument. My intentional wording is an indication that I do not in any way think that all Asian women are like that. I have said this very thing so many times. You have either STILL not read the thread–or you are just dull. I have never been on ANY stereotype bus at all. So that argument doesn’t work, Zek.
And this general argument that white people are always privileged and therefore it is OK to dehumanize them is wrong. Let’s work together against lobsided privilege, yes. But wow — It is “racist” when I say I don’t want to be dehumanized?? Are we living in America? On the contrary, No, it is not wrong for me to protest. What is necessary is to make sure that I, myself, do not do it as a white man to another group. But dehumanization of other human beings is *always* wrong. And it just reifies the very racism that we are all fighting against.
King:
You said: “You seem to be saying that NO negative images should ever be shared on this topic— at least without being followed by several paragraphs of qualifiers and disclaimers.”
Not “several paragraphs of disclaimers.” One clear sentence would be fine. And I disagree that this is not important. I think sloppiness in this area is what has historically led to terrible forms of racism. I tried to explain that. The problem of white privilege is something we all need to fight against together. But to use it as justification for white humiliation and dehumanization is just wrong. And that is what it feels like to me.
Just sayin…
Hugh,
And it just reifies the very racism that we are all fighting against.
Correction. That’s WE — and not you — are fighting against. You cannot say you are fighting against racism when you attempt to justify your own untenable views with regards to POC, fetishization, and other related topics.
I mean, seriously dude, this act is quite pitiful since you seem so self-righteously upset about random people pointing out your problems, and are at least intelligent enough to write several paragraphs about why you’re upset at being so called-out on.
Notice, you did not answer any of my questions, but instead devolved into — regrettably again — self-righteous statements that do nothing but further provide evidence by which we continue to call you out on your own hypocrisy. Which is why I say just admit you’re wrong, learn something, and keep it moving. Or just skip to the end — and keep it moving with the same ignorant mindset.
Either way, the burden of this conversation is squarely upon you.
@Herneith
I like your new Gravatar picture!
And I also like a man to first and foremost have a pulse.
@Bulanikgirl:
That’s another one to add to my list of random characteristics on a man! Thanks! Here is another one to add; Must have most of his teeth, at least his front teeth! Perhaps Abagond should do a post about women who fetishize random physical characteristics on men!
@ Randy
Yes, that is a very insightful observation, and one that I totally agree with.
I fear that there is no perfect process. But still, some things may work better than others. I can tell you why Asian Fetish jumps out at me particularly as an example of a legitimate syndrome. Perhaps the example will prove the better determinant of fact.
- One of the most telling objective determinants for me is the are the interethnic cohabitation statistics of Asians as compared to other ethnicities.
For charts linked below
Yellow = Asian people
Red = Native Americans
Brown = Hispanics
Black = Black people
White = White people
Here are the cohabitation rates of Asian men in the U.S.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ODa44Ca3Qog/ShWXwSAX4DI/AAAAAAAAA58/ybCr4LLcQ78/s1600-h/asian+men+live.gif
As opposed to Asian women in the U.S.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ODa44Ca3Qog/ShWXwtfjiSI/AAAAAAAAA6M/M1qdTmTwQuU/s1600-h/asian+women+live.gif
Compare those figures to the cohabitation rates of Hispanic men in the U.S.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ODa44Ca3Qog/ShWYUktRoEI/AAAAAAAAA7A/X4HreA0K4JE/s1600-h/hisp+men+live.gif
and those of Hispanic women in the U.S.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ODa44Ca3Qog/ShWYU7xHBKI/AAAAAAAAA7Q/FXkE4nc-Alw/s1600-h/hisp+women+live.gif
I do NOT suppose that the ONLY explanation of these figures is due to Asian Fetish, but I do observe that the percentages tend to comport to what you would expect if Asian Women (a very small minority in the U.S.) were dating White men at a much greater rate than is the norm for other minorities in the U.S. and also much higher than the marriage rate for AM/WW.
This observation goes toward answering this question
1) How prevalent is the issue in the society in question?
In answer to how damaging this issue has been within the Asian community, I think one only has to look to so many of the Asian Activist organizations such as Hyphen, AAYLC, Thymos, and so many others. You could also look at the larger Asian American websites and discussion forums such as Model Minority, 8 Asians, You Insult Me, You Insult My Family (YIMYIMF).This particular subject has been a widely discussed as the PRIMARY rift and third rail within the Asian-American immigrant community.
This goes toward answering this question
2) How damaging or beneficial are the effects on a society-wide basis?
Also, you could look at a recent increase in publications like these:
http://www.tower.com/chinese-women-in-love-marriage-guide-happiness-dawn-xiao-yan-li-paperback/wapi/107144666
Thailand Fever
How to Attract Asian Women
http://books.google.com/books?id=dOOKEX-AElQC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
Only showing a very few of the many now available, usually written by Asian women for “Western men.”
Add also the many infamous videos posted in places like YouTube:
http://thegrandnarrative.com/2007/10/27/why-asian-girls-go-for-white-guys/
The mere volume of such videos (Much higher than for any other interracial combination) reflects, once again that the propaganda that has driven these race-based concepts of idealism and inadequacy has been widespread. This goes toward answering this question.
3) How broadly is it being propagandized in the larger society?
Another thing to consider are the many Asian sex touring sites that cater primarily (but not exclusively) to Europeans, Americans, and Australians.
http://www.pleasuretours.com/
http://www.sextour.com.au/china_sex_tour_vacation.htm
http://www.travelsexguide.tv/
BTW, I ASSUME THAT CLICKING INTO THESE SITES WILL PROBABLY LEAD YOU TO SOME QUESTIONABLE PLACES, SO BEWARE DOING SO.
There are also man, many, dating/ mail order bride type sites. I’m too weary now to link them all in, but I assume that we can agree that they exist and are more prevalent than sites for women of other ethnicities (including Russian and Eastern European which would be closer to the western ideal).
This all goes toward answering this question:
4) How organized and advanced are its support structures?
Now, a reply to a blog post is not a place to PROVE a point in absolute terms, so I have not tried to write a position paper here. I’m just giving a very few references to back up my points. Obviously, I could be much more thorough and put everybody to sleep (if I haven’t done so already)
But my point is that the preponderance of evidence in each case leads me to believe that Asian Fetish is a special case and is therefore an observed and legitimate syndrome. For me, it clearly meets the tests of demonstrating society-wide ramifications. I would apply these same criterion to any other interethnic relationships grouping to find if they too met the prescribed parameters.
*Thanks to Uncle Milton for providing the interracial statistics links upthread.
@Asha
Skipping lots of comments, yes, there are lots of men (especially European men), who do want to have a relationship with a bw.
@Herneith
Incisors? I’m getting hot under the collar now… lord have mercy!
King,
A+ post, would read again.
First, some clarification: oxforddictionaries.com defines the term “fetish” as: a form of sexual desire in which gratification is linked to an abnormal degree to a particular object, item of clothing, part of the body, etc.
In these discussions, the term “Asian Fetish” also appears to be carry elements of a social pathology based upon stereotypes.
You’ve cited a disproportionate ratio of WM/AF couplings as a contributor to your diagnosis of A-F as legitimate syndrome. I’d disagree, based upon 2 points:
1. Co-habitation / Marriage are advanced stages of relationships where one would expect that superficial stereotypes have long been dispelled.
2. The oft-cited “Columbia Study” suggest that most women are biased against those from other races, except for Asian women who have a neutral attitude towards white men. Men on the other hand will generally board any welcoming boat.
King:
I’d offer that the pervasiveness of the A-F meme contributes towards interest in puerile publications, while the self-help type books could be reasonably explained as being appropriate given the sheer quantity of such relationships.
King:
You probably think such enticements are outsized because you’re unaware of just how pervasive such offerings are in China, Japan, and elsewhere in Asia. I dare say that the sensitive western eye might go agog at how similar tours are much more brazenly touted within Asia itself.
King:
I’d suggest that the mail order bride industry caters more to a cultural appeal than to a racial one. Also, there are a large number of similar sites for men who are interested in E. European and Latin American women.
King:
I’m glad you ended on this point, because I think it’s the most salient. Who exactly are the victims here, and how have they been damaged?
In his post, Abagond wrote:
If ham-handed pickup attempts by men who are long on confidence but short on social graces comprises a “fetish”, then surely there’s hundreds of fetishes one could document. While surely annoying, such experiences as Samhita’s are prosaically normal.
ATTENTION ASIAPHILES!!!
Read below:
I was once like yourself, but I cannot cure you. It takes a person training their own mind in order to change your preference.
Instead, I will help you another way.
Here is a list of tips on how to HIDE your asiaphilia from an asian woman you are attempting to court:
1. Wear sunglasses.
The main way asian women can tell a man is an asiaphile by the look in his eyes, and a person can tell a lot about a person just by looking in the other persons eyes (their mood, their attitude, etc.)
2. Make sure you are hygienic.
This is a given for in any situation with a woman. Asiaphiles as asians call you, and once called me, are identified by a certain disgusting thing about them. A lot of asians have made the observation that a lot of asiaphiles dont shower, and some dont shave, and some dont do either. Make sure you are shaven and showered in the mornings. Make sure to get those hair cuts every now and then.
3. Work on your social skills.
Social awkwardness can come off bad. In fact, it almost always does. Make sure you are not nervous when talking to one. Try not to stutter, or say “um” too much.
4. Talk to her like any woman of your own race.
Not all of them are foreighn, so dont try to talk to them in some random asian language. And dont speak slowly either.
When attempting to make conversation, dont ask her where she is from, or about her culture, and dont talk endlessly about how great you think asian culture is. Talk to her like a woman of your own race.
5. Dont be racist.
This should be a given, but dont talk about asian steotypes, or make fun of asians, or say that asian men are inferior to her face. try to be racially sensitive.If you seem racist, then she may suspect you are an asiaphile.
6. Respect her like any other woman of your own race.
If you have nor respect for women, then I cant help you.
I’ve been following this exchange for a while now, although I have not commented bc my scope of Asian & White attractions/relationships is limited. I also don’t understand the concept of “fetishizing”(I’m not even sure if that’s a word, but I’m like 80% sure I spelled it wrong if it is) the opposite gender of a race….
I just wanted to say that I have noticed some commenters have accused Hugh of being a racist.
I don’t understand why.
I’ve seen many, many racist online and he doesn’t seem like one of them from what I have read from him so far. I would like to think I have developed the skill of discerning between racist and non-racist people online, whether they claim that title or not. For instance, idk if you guys know this, but it is extremely rare to see a white racist acknowledge institutional racism w/in the United States. Also, he has typed up several disclaimers and has applied qualifiers in order to avoid generalizing entire groups of people.
So for those of you who believe High is racist. Why?
You raise some good counterpoints:
In our usage if the word it might be defined as: “A form of sexual desire in which gratification is linked to an abnormal degree to a particular objectification.” You see, the person themselves can be reduced to an object. That is, in part, the function of a stereotype.
But that is the very nature of an abnormal obsession, that it often does not end when one would expect, but instead becomes self-perpetuating. You are thinking in normative terms while discussing an abnormal behavior. I have observed that couples who engage in this mutual fetish often do take it all the way into marriage. Both partners feed off of one another’s mutual dysfunction, which usually includes an inflated sense of mutual superiority, coupled with a belief in the inferiority of the reverse-gender of their own race.
Yes, I believe that particular abnormal response is most often referred to as a racial fetish. It is not only some White men who have a fetish, but also some Asian women who have a White fetish, otherwise it wouldn’t work.
I am aware of sex tourism within Asia (particularly with japanese businessmen ) but I just find it odd that there has been such a directed effort towards White Westerners in recent years. I also find it odd that although anybody with money could go (I suppose) that so many of the clients end up being White. It is not a smoking gun, but is a piece of the pie (to mix my metaphors horribly!).
Zek:
Here’s a warning: you are beginning to dig yourself an impressive little hole that is just going to get deeper and deeper. But it’s your funeral.
You said:
“That’s WE — and not you — are fighting against. You cannot say you are fighting against racism when you attempt to justify your own untenable views with regards to POC, fetishization, and other related topics.”
This makes absolutely no sense at all. I have defended myself against your silly accusations that I am racist. I am not. And your claim that I do not fight against racism simply because I disagree with you is–of course–ridiculous.
You said:
“Notice, you did not answer any of my questions, but instead devolved into — regrettably again — self-righteous statements that do nothing but further provide evidence by which we continue to call you out on your own hypocrisy.”
You are HILARIOUS. I Love it. I did not answer any of your questions, Zek? Again, are you stoned? You called me a *hypocrite* who was *stereotyping* all Asian women. I completely defended myself against your silly accusations, but it is YOU who ignored my defense and offere NO rebuttal, and simply defaulting back to your silly accusations that I am a hypocrite and a racist.
Look–the only thing that is happening when you post, Zek, is that you just continue to dig your own hole deeper and deeper. Sorry, buddy.
King:
How might one go about determining what fraction of IR couples are attached for fetishistic reasons? I can think of quite a few reasons for the high outmarriage rate of asian women in the US, not least of which is that non-asians comprise some 95.5% of the US population.
As for sex tourism, just follow the money. Western countries tend to be the wealthiest, thus having the disposable income required for such activities.
Hugh,
This makes absolutely no sense at all. I have defended myself against your silly accusations that I am racist. I am not.
Point to me where I said you are a racist. Go ahead, I’ll wait…
That you do not agree with me, is again, not the issue either. The issue is your willful need to ignore what the majority of commenters here have pointed out for that with regards to WM/AW couples and the reasons behind the attraction.
For the record, I don’t think you ARE a racist, but you are a hypocrite (for the purposes of this conversation) and you are acting very ignorant about this topic. And again, I find that pitiful. No matter how much you try to console yourself by telling me I am digging a “hole” or telling me how “hilarious” I am, you’ll still be acting hypocritical and ignorant until you can admit you were wrong, learn from it, and move on.
You *could* start by answering the questions in my second to last comment:
“Me trying to show that there is very little difference between dehumanization of human beings across all racial lines using similar patterns in history is — racist.
Yes, it is when you take into account that White people in general, especially in America, face very litttle actual racism, let alone structural racism.
My point is that Asian women many times are obsessed with themselves to the point that they think they are the most attractive race among women. LOL.
So, you’re okay with making hasty generalizations about Asian women based on your limited experience, but god forbid anyone does the same with regard to White men, who by and large commit far more acts of direct & indirect oppression in our society than their POC counterparts?? And furthermore, are you then okay with condemning them for doing so while you complain that, When white men speak out that it is painful, we are to be trampled down again.”
You don’t have to answer, but then again, I don’t expect you to. Because like I said, hypocrites don’t make good argument. Nor do the willfully ignorant.
Sorry Abagond, this is formatted correctly:
Who decides what is “fetishistic?”
Randy raises the salient point: who becomes judge, jury and executioner concerning the nature of a cross-cultural relationship and what is — and is not — “fetishistic?” We cannot decide that a relationship is bad based on one picture or someone’s impression in passing. It leads to hurt and racism. Also, marriage stats cannot directly signify A-F. There are many other factors involved. And while I realize King is not speaking generally about all cross-cultural or WM-AF relationships (I hope), I think it is a bit disturbing to say this:
“I have observed that couples who engage in this mutual fetish often do take it all the way into marriage. Both partners feed off of one another’s mutual dysfunction, which usually includes an inflated sense of mutual superiority, coupled with a belief in the inferiority of the reverse-gender of their own race.”
That is a LONG list of possible false-impressions and stereotypical characterizations of AF-WM relationships based on “observation” that must be approached very, very carefully. Did you know you know these couples well? Did you ask them personally who they are and why they are involved with each other? How were you able to “observe” that they had said A-F? And then “mutual fetish,” feeding off one another’s mutual fetish”, “inflated sense of mutual superiority…” These are all very potentially dehumanizing and disturbing impressions of two human beings that cannot be made lightly. I have been in a situation when it was made lightly but with intent to break us apart. It was really terrible and hurtful — particularly as the Asian woman was rejected and alienated from friends and family simply because of my race. Some were even implying that she was slutty and insecure just because she was not with an Asian man. She was devastated.
Are white males the main consumers of mail-order brides?
Also: With regard to mail-order brides it seems there is huge interest in south asian brides from Asian men, particularly South Korean men. (see links). It is not accurate to frame that activity as “mostly” European. There is clearly huge Asian-to-Asian purchasing of brides for marriage. Therefore, it doesn’t really work to use the mail-order bride industry as evidence for A-F. Unless you want to include the fact that Asian men can “fetishize” asian women also. Then, yes, you might have a point.
Here are some important links from credible publications that illustrate my point:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/23/world/asia/23iht-brides.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/mailorder-bride-killed-byhusband-2028705.html
http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2010/03/22/2010032200462.html
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/south-korea/110601/vietnam-integration-foreign-brides?page=0,0
@ Randy
I suppose you’d have to do a very large double blind $tudy, and ask the right kind of questions. But for the layman, I’m not sure that the exact percentage matters so much, once you realize that it is a big enough percentage to be a big problem.
The Asian Blogosphere is brimming with posts from Asian guys who are saying that they are approaching Asian girls, and being told that sorry, she doesn’t date Asian guys! Now THAT is dysfunctional, and you can no longer maintain that nobody is being hurt by it.
@King:
Amen. I have heard this time and time again from my male cousins. And once more, why is this certain fellow getting up in arms over something that’s not relevant to him? If you read this person’s much earlier posts, this Asian fetish was not started by white men, but Asian men…sure, not all, but many. *rolls eyes*
Here’s what this fellow posted:
On that note….
@Franklin:
You are spot on! Bravo!
Zek,
You don’t expect me to answer? Wrong again.
Here you go:
Zek: “Correction. That’s WE — and not you — are fighting against. You cannot say you are fighting against racism when you attempt to justify your own untenable views with regards to POC, fetishization, and other related topics.”
Well, what you say here is one hair away from saying that I am racist: saying that I am not fighting to work against it. Only you are fighting against racism, right Zek? I don’t think so. I have completely defended my views. You simply continue to demand that I stand down because I disagree with you.
“The issue is your willful need to ignore what the majority of commenters here have pointed out for that with regards to WM/AW couples and the reasons behind the attraction.”
I have ignored none of the posts, Zek. I have responded to all of them with input that was thoughtful and relevant.
“but you are a hypocrite (for the purposes of this conversation) and you are acting very ignorant about this topic. And again, I find that pitiful.”
LOL. Oh really? You find my standing by my opinions about this issue “pitiful?” You’re classic. Nope. Thanks, but I stand by my views. For the record, I think you are wrong. That does not make me a hypocrite, and I am not ignorant. Why do you think just typing those things will make it true?
Now, as far as your comments here, I will directly respond.
Hugh: “Me trying to show that there is very little difference between dehumanization of human beings across all racial lines using similar patterns in history is — racist.
Zek: Yes, it is when you take into account that White people in general, especially in America, face very litttle actual racism, let alone structural racism.
OK… So, by your logic, white men are required to shut up, bow our heads, and put up with humiliation and dehumanization because “white people face very little racism?” Huh? Do we live in America? How does the degree of racism that a certain group of people experiences give justification to ignore racist acts against them? How many racist acts against me are OK Zek? 55? 100? 345 acts? When does it actually become *wrong* to treat me like an animal? And when is it NOT racist for me to say “don’t treat me like an animal, please”?? Do you have a number for me? Further, how in the world is it, in turn, “racist” for me to speak out against this racism that was leveled at me by the Asian community? Your thinking is not logical. Racism is wrong–period. I will continue to stand up for all groups that experience it. And, as such, all groups are complicit in racist acts, albeit different kinds, and to different degrees. But racism is still racism is still racism.
Like I said before, I work to fight racism, structural and/or institutional, but to say that I am racist for pointing out racism against me just because white men might experience it *less* than other groups is STILL not justification for racist dehumanization. My point has continued to be that this is a dangerous pattern in history when one group of people comes to the point where it is OK to dehumanize another.
Hugh: My point is that Asian women many times are obsessed with themselves to the point that they think they are the most attractive race among women. LOL.
Zek: So, you’re okay with making hasty generalizations about Asian women based on your limited experience, but god forbid anyone does the same with regard to White men, who by and large commit far more acts of direct & indirect oppression in our society than their POC counterparts?
Wow… OK, for the THIRD TIME, I am STILL not making “hasty generalizations” about Asian women. Right there, in your own re-quote, is “many times”! Hello? That means I am NOT making a generalization. For the third time, I DO NOT think all Asian women are obsessed with themselves to the point that they project that self-fetish onto me. I have dated some who are perfectly balanced and healthy — really great people. But *some* Asian women are completely odd in this way.
But even if I were generalizing (which I am not), you seem to excuse the same activity toward white men, who, according to you, “Commit far more acts of direct & indirect oppression in our society.” So, Zek, since you are a white man (at least according to your pic), of course it stands that you are busy committing these “direct and indirect acts of oppression” that you speak of all the time, and that you will be able to explain to me exactly what you mean by “acts of direct & indirect oppression” from your own personal experience. Because I grew up in a house where my mother punished us kids for anything even remotely racist or negative toward different groups– we got screamed at and hustled to our rooms for the rest of the day. To think of myself committing any act of oppression, toward any person, is foreign to think about.
In the end, however, the answer is moot because nothing ever justifies racism of any kind. White people need to join with other groups to eradicate all forms of racism. I am part of that, whether you think I am or not. But I cannot accept the notion that I deserve to be treated like an animal, and, in turn, I am “racist” when I speak out against that treatment.
Greetings, Leigh204, and thank you ahead of time for reminding me that I need to provide some clear examples of when Asian men fetishize Asian women. And also, thanks so much for posting some of my more salient points.
So, here goes.
First of all, I do not speak out against this for no reason. I was the victim of the dehumanizing moniker of being a “fetishist” as have been other non-Asian men I know (including some black friends, BTW). What is not “relevant” is the accusation–I fetishize nothing. But the Asian women I knew were hurt deeply by odd Asian women like yourself, Leigh204, who insist that it is morally wrong for an Asian woman to be attracted to only white men or black men just because your Asian male cousins are upset about it. How in the world is it any business of yours or your Asian male cousins who another autonomous, intelligent Asian woman is attracted to? Creepy and strange.
So… Asian men do not develop “fetishes” for Asian women based on race? There is no such thing as same-race “fetishizing?” I don’t think so. I can show you direct quotes from credible sources that show Asian men declaring that they will buy a bride (sometimes twenty years younger) than them based entirely on superficial racial characteristics that they are intense about bringing back to the ranch. This is the same accusation sometimes leveled at non-Asian men when they date asian women: they are “fetishizing” the woman based on “superficial racial characteristics.”
Concerning Korean men and their mail-order brides:
SOURCE ONE:The New York Times. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/23/world/asia/23iht-brides.html
“Her husband, Bae Il Hwan, a 39-year-old divorcee with two children, said that in a Vietnamese woman he found attributes no longer evident in many Korean women: Confucian decorum and devotion to housekeeping and family…When Abon first met her 38-year-old South Korean husband in the Philippines in December, she said, she believed in love at first sight. But by May, she said, her husband had threatened her with a knife and “boxed me because of sex.”
>>> These Korean men are clearly seeking something that — if it were a non-Asian doing it — would be labeled a “fetish.” These are truly creepy and serious examples of a weird “same-race fetish” among men in South Korea. Disclaimer: all South Korean men are NOT like this. My point is that some are, and that their behavior — if they were not Asian — would immediately be labled a “fetish.”
SOURCE TWO: The Korea Times
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2009/10/211_53320.html
“…The profile of Korean men who marry mail-order brides belong to the lower-middle class, in their late 30s or older, in need of housewives who will take care of them and their children from failed former marriages, or their old parents, according to the study….
“…She said Korean men characterize Southeast Asian women, including those from the Philippines, as coming from poorer countries; as strangers to Korean culture and language, which will prevent them from running away; as people from a tropical and agricultural country who have good personalities; as docile and obedient; able to speak English; and as familiar with Korean patriarchal culture.
“Kim said Filipino-Korean couples who met through matchmaking agencies and religious organizations are the biggest in number and the center of public attention in relation to human rights and multiculturalism issues.”
>>>
In both of these examples said South Korean men are using the *very criteria* for the selection of these south Asian women that others would claim is “fetishistic behavior” for non-Asian men. But if you insist that white men are “fetishistic” in this way (although I have never heard non-Asian men say these kinds of things) you are obligated to say that these Korean men are also “fetishistic.”
Question: are these Korean men valuing these south Asian women as unique, individual human beings that they value, or “fetishizing” them as objects that they will possess and use? One thing is clear: if it is a “fetish” for non-Asian men, it is also a “fetish” for Asian men.
The other side of the coin here is this: some of these Asian-Asian marriages work out well. Some of these Korean men love their mail-order brides and take care of them. It is mutual. So even as we must be very careful about qualifying WM-AF relationships in racist ways, we must also be careful to not qualify AM-AF relationships the same way. Every couple is different, and we must be careful to never over-generalize.
Hugh,
I’m glad you answered, because it shows you CAN be made to address the actual issue. However your answers seem to be lacking in… well, rationality. Let’s have a look, shall we?
Well, what you say here is one hair away from saying that I am racist: saying that I am not fighting to work against it. Only you are fighting against racism, right Zek? I don’t think so. I have completely defended my views. You simply continue to demand that I stand down because I disagree with you.
Again, unless you can point to where I actually say you are racist, then all you are ACTUALLY doing is making assumptions about what I think, or about what my words might mean. Stop projecting your insecurities or transferring previous conversations you’ve had on to this specific conversation. And please, for the love of Geebus P Cryst stop acting like everyone else in this country and freak out when someone tells you you’re not understanding an very important point. Instead try listening. Whether you agree or not doesn’t make a difference, but unless you are really dense then you’d notice the evidence is stacked against you in this argument.
Again, that you cannot admit to this is the problem, that you cannot seem to even consider that you may be missing something to which nearly everyone else here as made abundantly clear is a testament to your inability to admit, even slightly that you have no idea what you’re talking about. And it’s sad.
OK… So, by your logic, white men are required to shut up, bow our heads, and put up with humiliation and dehumanization because “white people face very little racism?”
Nope. Didn’t say that. You’re putting words in people’s mouths…
Huh? Do we live in America? How does the degree of racism that a certain group of people experiences give justification to ignore racist acts against them? How many racist acts against me are OK Zek? 55? 100? 345 acts? When does it actually become *wrong* to treat me like an animal? And when is it NOT racist for me to say “don’t treat me like an animal, please”??
HAHAHA, oh Hugh… Please point out for me the moment ANYONE here treated you like an animal. Point out to me a moment when anyone in the world treated you like an animal. Shoot, you could even make one up! (This is the internet, after all.)
Actually, just sit down and stop getting self-righteous. You’re not a victim, so stop trying to make yourself out to be one.
But I digress, you classically missed the point! The point is that WHITE PEOPLE in general, face very little actual racism. Do you disagree? Or do you think White people face as much racism as Black people, Hispanic people, or Asian people have faced? Do you think White people face as much racism as POC do in this counry? I mean, unless you are COMPLETELY ignorant of our history, you’d have to conclude that racism against White people is pretty rare in comparison to racism against POC.
Further, how in the world is it, in turn, “racist” for me to speak out against this racism that was leveled at me by the Asian community? Your thinking is not logical. Racism is wrong–period. I will continue to stand up for all groups that experience it. And, as such, all groups are complicit in racist acts, albeit different kinds, and to different degrees. But racism is still racism is still racism.
Except for you Hugh, it appears that racism to you is taking White people — in this case White men — to task for their fetishization of Asian women! This is fundamental, because if any criticism of racism by White people is going to be seen by you as “racism” against Whites, then frankly you don’t understand racism, or how to fight it, certainly not in this country. So, no, racism is not “still racism” because you apparently don’t understand that fighting racism is not the same thing as racism.
And, again, stop trying to say I called you a racist. I haven’t… yet =P
Wow… OK, for the THIRD TIME, I am STILL not making “hasty generalizations” about Asian women.
Hugh, reread your quote. You said “Asian women”, as in the group in general. There was no qualifier.
I have dated some who are perfectly balanced and healthy — really great people. But *some* Asian women are completely odd in this way.
This qualifier however comes off in the same vein as when people say, “Black people are so ghetto, but I know a few who are okay.” Are you truly ignorant of how you sound, right now?
And yet, apparently you think you deserve to be treated like what you’re saying is not ignorant or hypocritical, or completely dismissive of the experience and evidence of the POC commenters in this forum? Like another Well-Intentioned White Person, you seem to flash your creds…
I grew up in a house where my mother punished us kids for anything even remotely racist or negative toward different groups– we got screamed at and hustled to our rooms for the rest of the day. To think of myself committing any act of oppression, toward any person, is foreign to think about. … White people need to join with other groups to eradicate all forms of racism. I am part of that
But then apparently cannot actually back that up with your words.
I have been a victim of anti-Semitic bullying, prejudice, gotten my face pushed in by jackboots and my temple vandalized many times, but none of that has ANYTHING to do with what I may or may not say that is ignorant, hypocritical, or dismissive of POC. You can be well-intentioned, and still mess up. Yet only children will try to wrangle out of responsibility for their words and actions when they’re wrong.
Which is why I’ve been admonishing you to stop, listen, learn, and grow up.
And before you reply to comment, stop. Think for a second. Because if it’s another self-righteous rant about you being treated like an animal when you’re not — and you’re really not — or being a “victim” of racism against White people when you’re not — and again, you’re REALLY not — then frankly save yourself the keystrokes. I don’t care how against racism you say you are, or how hard you say you work to fight it, because it’s obvious that you don’t based on your behavior in this forum.
That you cannot admit to such a small thing as fetishization of Asian women shows that you’re really quite useless when it comes to even bigger things like structural oppression via the Prison Industrial complex, the demonization of Black men, nativism and anti-immigration, or even anti-Semitic memes like “Jews control the banks/hollywood/the world!”
(By the way, THAT is what I mean by acts of direct & indirect oppression. Because those are things that ACTUALLY happen on a wide scale. Unlike the things you’ve been getting self-righteous about.)
But again, I digress. You’ll probably do exactly the opposite of what I advised. And I’m sure I can expect another rant in the comments section. Which is why I think you’re pitiful =/
However, let me drop this last knowledge bomb on your bastion of hypocritical ignorance…
http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1005&context=uhf_2006
This is a decent paper by Maggie Chung, but what’s really important is the bibliography. Go read something =)
King,
Attempting to derive meaningful data from anecdotal sources like the “blogosphere” is a perilous undertaking. That being said, let’s examine your statement:
If the phenomenon which you’re illustrating here were to indicate a pathological “fetish”, one would have to describe it as “White Fetish” by asian women rather than an “Asian Fetish” by white men.
But is that even the case?
I married an asian woman who had no interest in dating within her ethnicity. Her reason? Traditional asian cultures are heavily patriarchal, and women are often treated poorly. Husbands tend towards drinking and philandering without assisting in the domestic arena. White guys are viewed as favoring more equal relationships.
As for the lonely hearts you’ve observed online, I’d suggest that a primary reason for this might be that asian men tend to be less socially and physically aggressive than non-asian men. This confers a significant disadvantage in the sexual marketplace, particularly in western cultures where such traits are prized.
^ And here it is folks…Exhibit A.
Leigh204,
Sorry, but what does “Exhibit A” refer to?
I have tasted all the flavors including chocolate, vanilla and chunky monkey. Does liking chunky monkey best, for a whole slew of reasons, make me a fetishist? Or is it just a better fit for me?
I can admit that there may be more attractive flavors like tutti frutti and rainbow sherbet or the even more exotic varieties of gelato from Latin America.
But that chunky monkey is the best for me. Life is short and after tasting it all, you have to decide on one, and chunky monkey is what I prefer. Somehow they got it all right, chocolate, banana ice cream and almonds Hmm Hmm good.
I disagree. There clearly are different levels of evidentiary certitude, but I’m not saying that what I’m presenting in these blog postings, are equal to a funded scientific study or to legal testimony. However, if I notice that the majority of Black newspapers are reporting a certain problem within the Black community, then I’m likely to believe that it probably exists (short of scientific proof that it does not.) In the same way, if I read Asian online newspapers, Asian online magazines, Asian online websites, and Asian blogs, and they are ALL siting the same problem: “The Interracial Gender Disparity,” then I’m likely to believe that it too probably exists.
No, I would say that it’s a mutual fetish. However, White privilege tilts the perpetuation of the fetish more to White men than to Asian women.
Based on what? Certainly not base on the divorce rates that are 5 times higher in the U.S. than in China or Thailand? Do these Asian women actually know many Western men in order to make that comparison?
If not, where do you think that they are they getting this idea from?
Zek:
Hey there, buddy. First of all, um, no thanks, but I do NOT admit that I am wrong. I love this line:
“…then you’d notice the evidence is stacked against you in this argument.”
LOL! It’s cute when you just type things on this blog that have no basis in reality. No – I have answered all arguments quite well. You’re the one who likes to type out things like, “Hugh, just please, PLEASE, admit that you are an ignorant hypocrite OK? =)”
You are so classic…!! Love it.
So let’s get this party started, shall we?
Zek: … another self-righteous rant about you being treated like an animal when you’re not — and you’re really not — or being a “victim” of racism against White people when you’re not — and again, you’re REALLY not — then frankly save yourself the keystrokes. I don’t care how against racism you say you are, or how hard you say you work to fight it, because it’s obvious that you don’t based on your behavior in this forum.
LOLOL! Ahhhhhh, thank you so much for clearing up all of these painful events in my life there buddy! What would I do without Zek to tell me what my past experiences *were* and what they *were not.* Excellent! You’re sort of like Dr. Phil on crack wearing a hoody standing against a grungy wall in an urban setting. Cool, Zek! What in the world would I do without Dr. Zek to clear all my issues up? LOL. I do just love how you insist that you know everything about what I went through. I love how you insist I was not treated the way it felt, and the way many others around me — even other Asians for God’s sake! — characterized it. Bold? Sure. Bizarre? Yup.
I mean, I know so MANY Asians who will quickly and without reservation acknowledge Asian racism. They are ashamed of it. And I talk about it openly with them. I admit white forms of racism, they admit Asian forms of racism. We pull no punches. And it’s really, really good. I trust these guys. We can be honest with each other. Too bad Dr. Zek is to busy trying to sound cool by insisting exactly the opposite (in a really awkward and bizarre way) to actually engage the issue in the real world when we all – together – get real and admit our insecurities and weaknesses. I invite you to get out of the way of the healthy discussion/debate that is ongoing between some whites and some Asians, because you simply set everyone back 20 years when you deny racism against white people — even when Asians freely admit it!
Here’s the facts (not that you concern yourself with them…LOL): It was painful, it was racist, it was hurtful what I experienced. The people in question literally demonize white men. Of course, not all Asians are like this. But some are. Just like some white people are racist, but not all. I made it clear above in the thread that you have not read YET that I in NO WAY equate my experience with that of other ethnic groups. I did say, however, that I believe that it leads to the same dangerous result: the dehumanization of human beings.
Further, I made it clear above in the thread you have STILL not read that I am not denying that “fetishes” can exist across any number of cross-cultural boundaries, including WM-AF boundaries. Anyone can “fetishize” or become obsessive about another person for any number of reasons. But that is a rare extreme. My bone of contention is the sensationalization and isolation of only one variety of obsessive behavior: AM-AF. Sure it’s possible. But it not OK for some groups of people to name something “A-F” when it might be simple attraction, or strong attraction, or even very strong attraction. To cross the line and call it something like “obsession” or “fetish” is crossing a line that makes the white man and the asian woman into robots who have no autonomy of their own to decide what kind of person they are simply drawn to, attracted to, excited to be around. Further, it is dangerous when certain people make passing glances at a relationship and name it “A-F” when they have no personal relationship with the two in question. This leads to dehumanization.
Ultimately, you have no right to tell me that what me and also some of my black friends experienced was false, invalid, or somehow not as important as someone else’s pain. And if you want me to show you the evidence of Asian racism against black people, then just say the word, buddy. It is definitely worse than what I experience. And my experience was really painful. You, Mr. Zek, do not sound mature, intelligent, nor are you pithy by trying to logically make an argument against the pain that I felt and also the Asian woman I dated felt. Me self-righteous? Nah – I am being honest. Big difference, champ.
“Except for you Hugh, it appears that racism to you is taking White people — in this case White men — to task for their fetishization of Asian women!”
LOL! Again, the classic self-destructing argument: It is racist to be against racism! Love your logic there that – AGAIN – excuses racist behavior against human beings. OH — right — you insist that racism does not exist in any form whatsoever against white men and that we are to shut up and be quiet when sometimes Asians treat us that way. Nah. Sorry. Racism is racism is racism. And it is ALWAYS wrong. And I am right about that. Sorry, champ.
And I’m sure I can expect another rant in the comments section. Which is why I think you’re pitiful =/
Me rant? And you don’t? LOL. Oh, and thanks for the schoolboy insult tacked on that I am “pitiful.” That really helps your argument. =/ (WTH?!)
What I will undoubtedly do is defend my views, whether you frame defending myself as a “rant” or whatever. You can be sure of that.
So, I await more semantic gymnastics from you demanding that you knew what I went through, how each person treated me, my friends, and the Asian woman I was dating, and that when we speak out against that kind of Asian racism, that me doing so is “racist.” I know – the Asians that acknowledge the reality of Asian racism against whites are completely *willfully* ignorant and dense. LOL. You’re the best, Zek. I await more of the same.
Have a good one.
King,
I’m afraid this discussion may be experiencing a bit of “mission creep”. I certainly agree that a gender disparity exists. However I’d suggest the causes don’t necessarily require a social pathology like “asian fetish”. Again, the Columbia Study seems to offer a plausible explanation: women are biased against men of other races except for asian women who are neutral towards white men.
I think your second point raises the question of why asian women might be more welcoming towards white men than other ethnicities of women towards I-R relationships.
King:
I’d suggest that even cursory research on gender relations in most of Asia would quickly answer that question. By and large it’s a man’s world there. My wife observed this having lived in SE Asia for 25 years. Women are often treated as second-class citizens. Sons are favored over daughters. Most of her friends not only had philandering fathers, but many had well-known mistresses or even second families with little to no consequence. Domestic abuse is not uncommon. Husbands expect their whims to be catered to without reciprocity.
Against this backdrop, is it surprising that so many asian women would seek western husbands when given the chance?
@ Randy:
I married an asian woman who had no interest in dating within her ethnicity. Her reason? Traditional asian cultures are heavily patriarchal, and women are often treated poorly. Husbands tend towards drinking and philandering without assisting in the domestic arena. White guys are viewed as favoring more equal relationships.
Randy, I’m not sure if you’ve ever actually met an Asian man.
Asian traditional culture IS patriarchal, but I don’t know if white men are truly such paragons of sensitive feminist virtue.
In any case, the attitudes of Asian-American males (and other Western-raised Asians) towards equality in relationships are much closer to white Americans than to Asians in Asia. So for an Asian woman to shun these allegedly horrible oppressive Asian-American guys for white guys seems a little askew.
I’m sure your wife has reasons for seeing Asian men the way she does, but I’m not sure it gels with overall reality.
This is from a report I read recently about forced and servile marriages in Australia:
“One study found that Filipina women in Australia between 20 and 39 were 6 times more likely to be victims of homicide than Australian women. In addition, available information indicated no perpetrator was Filipino, and all but one perpetrator were married to or intimately involved with the victim.”
(Schloenhardt, Andrea. (23 October 2009) ‘ ’Mail-Order Brides’ in Australia’ Human Trafficking Working Group, The University of Queensland TC Beirne School of Law, http://www.law.uq.edu/humantrafficking, accessed on 9 February 2011.)
Hi Eurasian Sensation,
You’re half-Indonesian but actually grew up in Australia, right?
ES:
Lol. I’ve met quite a few, not only in the US, but overseas. I have spent many an enjoyable evening chit-chatting and drinking whiskey with my in-laws.
ES:
I didn’t say they were, but rather gender relations are much more equal in the West than back in Asia. I doubt you would deny this. Further, I doubt you would disagree about the state of affairs in SE Asia, that men expect to be catered to by their wives, philander frequently and for the most part with impunity, and face little consequence for domestic abuse.
ES:
I would agree, to an extent. Western-raised asian men tend to be closer in culture than their foreign born co-ethnics. However, many still have 1st generation immigrant parents who retain old-school customs. As the saying goes, you marry into a family not just a spouse.
My wife has a large circle of emigrant friends and school chums, a number of which married within their nationality after coming to the US, and to their chagrin discovered that their western-raised husbands had eastern expectations. This is certainly not universal, but the enough of a pattern emerged for my wife to want to avoid the whole matter altogether. She’s not alone in that perspective.
@ Randy
But you keep saying that as if it’s some kind of an explanation, instead of an unusual cultural anomaly that itself requires an explanation. I am familiar with the study results, but the question is WHY do Asian women make a special bias exemption for White men? We should at least ask if it is because:
- White men are simply perceived as members of more wealthy and powerful cultures than Asian men (at least for now).
- White men have the benefit of the worldwide White-favoring media machine which romanticizes White men and portrays them to be much better than they really are.
- White men make no bones about actively pursuing Asian women within cultures that have more rigid rules of courting. As cultural outsiders, they are given latitude, were Asian men would not.
And as Eurasian Sensation has correctly pointed out, in the West, Asian girls and boys grow up side by side with the same Western values set. Yet the West is where the interracial dating disparity is at it’s most pronounced. Newer immigrants from Asian nations are much more likely to marry an Asian or Asian-American man than are 2nd and 3rd generation Asian women. And when the reasons are give as to why, these women do not site abuse, alcoholism or philandering, but things like:
- Asian men are too short
- Asian men are too shy
- Asian men aren’t masculine enough
- Asian men don’t seem cool
- Asian men aren’t romantic enough
Why do you think that the longer that Asian women are exposed to the American culture, the more likely they are to hold these kind of biases against their own Asian-American men, while simultaneously holding a curious lack of bias toward White men?
@ Randy:
I agree with you on some things.
gender relations are much more equal in the West than back in Asia. I doubt you would deny this.
That’s true for the most part.
face little consequence for domestic abuse.
This is true, although the West is not much better at all, in the majority of incidents of domestic abuse.
Further, I doubt you would disagree about the state of affairs in SE Asia, that men expect to be catered to by their wives,
true so far (the West is about 40 years ahead of much of Asia in this regard)…
philander frequently and for the most part with impunity…
but this sounds like bullsh*t to me. I have no stats to back it up but it doesn’t ring true at all, and for you to imply that this is some kind of accepted cultural norm is way off base and a bit offensive tbh. Obviously some philandering goes on in every culture, and varies a bit according to country, culture and social status; perhaps your wife has seen lots of cases in which this happens and thus gets a distorted view. But overall, I would actually say that it is actually less common for Asian men to fool around outside marriage than Westerners.
You’re half-Indonesian but actually grew up in Australia, right?
That’s correct. On the general topic of this post, I have no problem at all with interracial marriage and indeed think it’s generally a good thing, but there’s a whole lot of negative power dynamics, stereotypes and fetishisation that CAN go along with it that needs to be stamped out.
Eurasian Sensation,
Perhaps it sounds offensive to you simply because you hope it isn’t true. You seem like a very nice and charming fellow, but with all due respect, your perspective on this topic appears a bit naive.
If you have the curiosity, you may wish to begin your journey by googling mia noi aka “minor wife”, a common practice in Thailand.
I can’t comment on majority Muslim nations such as Indonesia and Malaysia, but one could generally go country-by-country throughout the rest of Asia and very easily discover just how common that infidelity tends to be. This situation is less likely to lead to the dissolution of marriages than it does in the West due in part to the weaker status which women have in those countries, as well as greater cultural acceptance of such practices.
In my own travels, nights out with businessmen often ended up at KTV, Gogo, and other sex-work establishments where the predominant clientele were locals.
Could you confirm – is Thailand mainly Buddhist?
@King
“- Asian men are too short
- Asian men are too shy
- Asian men aren’t masculine enough
- Asian men don’t seem cool
- Asian men aren’t romantic enough
Why do you think that the longer that Asian women are exposed to the American culture, the more likely they are to hold these kind of biases against their own Asian-American men, while simultaneously holding a curious lack of bias toward White men?”
Perhaps some Asian women have these biases bc these stereotypes are true for most, or at least a significant minority, of Asian-American men.
Do you believe that is unlikely?
It may not be politically correct to say that some stereotypes have a bit of validity to them, but considering the fact that I have had limited contact with Asians(despite the fact that there are a sh*tload of them at my university), I wouldn’t write off what these Asian women say as self-hatred, brainwashing, fetishes, or any of the other typical assumptions/speculations.
Bottom line: stereotypes asserted for any group never pan out. I know some tall, outgoing, masculine, cool and romantic Asian guys. I also know some short, shy, feminine, uncool, un-romantic white and black men. Just because an Asian woman chooses a non-Asian hardly ever means that she is *rejecting* all Asian men and her heritage based on a set of stereotypes, like some Asians are wont to insist. Is it possible that some Asian women are trying to “get back” at her culture for some negative reason? Sure. But it’s rare. Here is what it almost always means: she is *choosing* what she wants as an individual, autonomous human being who has the right to decide how she will live her life. And she has every right to do so — at least in America. This does not mean she “becomes white.” It means she is Asian and she is perfectly capable of deciding what she wants while balancing that with her heritage.
But the funny thing is that confident Asian men couldn’t care less who Asian women date. It’s the insecure Asian men that get upset about Asian women with non-Asian men. These confident Asian guys are very, very confident — but not cocky — in their Asian-ness in a way that is very attractive to women. Some of these guys are my friends — I know. One of them is married to a very attractive white woman and they just had a little baby. Further, they are not pissed off at white men or the Asian women who are attracted to non-Asian men. They could care less.
They are the Asian Asian-male stereotype-busters. We all need to watch their back.
I’m a white male originally from the PNW. I moved as I got tired of being the object of fetish by asian women. The giggling, sideways glances, wry smiles were becoming to much. You should hear the things they say to dehumanize me.
I’m not your G.I. Joe. I’m not your favorite jonas brother. *sigh* I will not love you for a long time.
Oh god, here come the tears……
I’m promised myself I wouldn’t do this.
Sorry for my grammatical errors. This is overwhelming to talk about.
@ Randy:
I’m referring to the this:
White men are bastions of gender egalitarianism? Right. I have heard similar reasonings not only from certain white guys in these “relationships”, but from some Asian women as well. I understand why some of the white males in this post are questioning the Asian fetish phenomenon. The Asian fetish is predominantly white male supremacy and Asian female subordination. I call it as I see it.
@ES:
You said it! Oh, indeed, the white man is the savior, the liberator of the poor Asian woman from her Asian male oppressor.
And it’s funny how a certain individual says only insecure Asian men have a problem with it? Hmm. I’d say it’s white men with an Asian fetish who have a problem.
Hey Leigh204,
I’m SO GLAD you chimed in again so that we could all be educated on Asian stereotypes of white men! Awesome. Saves time when you drop in and provide GRRREAT illustrations of the points I am making.
I understand why some of the white males in this post are questioning the Asian fetish phenomenon. The Asian fetish is predominantly white male supremacy and Asian female subordination. I call it as I see it.
Whoa, Leigh204! Wow. OMG. That is a highly nuanced and intelligent analysis there that of course has no root at all in any way whatsoever in your creepy desire to demonize all asian women who go out with white men and vice versa of course! I get it now: the reason that I am struggling through my past experiences with Asian racism is, well um, because according to you… I am the Great White Savior desperate to “save” all those frail, weak, stupid Asian women (who have absolutely no mind of their own of course) who chose me only because they like to subordinate themselves to the great White Hope.
Seriously: It’s just really great when you post.
Or, as you say “call it as you see it.” Lovely.
King: You make insightful and relevant points regarding potential causes of the different outmarriage rates of asian men v. women. However, as the post is specifically about the social pathology of A-F, I’d ask if you think the overall outmarriage rate of asian women is unexpectedly high, or that maybe it only seems so when compared to the lower outmarriage rate of asian men.
Bulanikgirl:: According to the CIA World Factbook, about 95% of Thais are Buddhist.
leigh204:
You’re Filipino-Canadian, right? Do you visit the Phils. often or have significant contact with your family members there?
Relative to the normative gender roles back in the Philippines, the normative gender roles in the west tend to be far more egalitarian.
@ certain individual:
Ahh, once again, tell me where I have said I demonized “all asian women who go out with white men and vice versa of course!” Silly rabbit. Trix are for kids. You still are pretty clueless. Not once, ONCE, have I said I have anything against IRRs. I completely agree with Eurasian Sensation. As he stated earlier:
Now why is it you don’t get it? This post is about Asian fetish, Capiche? Time and again, I’ve told you I don’t know why you have a problem with it if it’s not relevant to you…unless…. And Zek J Evets, dude, he’s all yours
@Randy:
I haven’t visited the Philippines in some time, but I chat with relatives pretty much every day. Since you asked me a question, I have one to ask you, You mentioned several times through abagond’s blog that your wife was originally from SE Asia. Where in SE Asia?
If the West tends to be far more egalitarian as you say, then why, I’m using the US as an example, you still don’t have a female president?
@ certain clueless individual:
LOL! I guess things online don’t always translate well, but it’s something called sarcasm. Here’s a smiley I forgot to add. Happy now?
Oh – hey Leigh204, it’s that “certain clueless individual” here. LOL. And I like that: “Silly rabbit. Trix are for kids.” Um – is that an insult?? Although I must admit that being called a “silly rabbit” is a crushing blow to my self-worth.
And whyyyy do you keep saying that A-F is “not relevant” to me? WOW. I have been ACCUSED of having it when I was in college a few years back. As a young guy it was really, really tough and confusing. My girlfriend was called a “sell-out” and a “banana-slut” and other assorted names (by a select group of Asians) for going out with me. Get it? That is why it is relevant to me.
And if you are trying to be “sarcastic” about your impressive portfolio of stereotypes about white men who happen to date asian women sometimes, then you should have said that a LONG time ago, buddy. Are you back-tracking? Are you admitting that this is a stereotype that you have promoted? Because you sound dead-set to promote negative gossip about, and images of, white men and Asian women in relationships, and this is the first time you have qualified ANYTHING. Just scroll up to the picture you posted, then defended and promoted, scoffing about how fat he was, and then how miserable the Asian woman looked – and then you joked about it. And then you used that as “proof” that your odd ideas about A-F were perfectly valid.
Ah. Lovely.
How quickly you forget.
But I guess people can change.
@ certain clueless individual:
Sheer nonsense. I did no such thing. Posturing much? I posted an image I googled under Asian fetish and lo and behold. This white man who happened to be fat and an Asian woman who looked miserable showed up. Don’t place the blame on me because someone else took this pic and posted it online. This is what happens when an Asian fetish goes too far.
He WAS fat. And the Asian woman LOOKED miserable. So what? Get over it.
Oh, here’s the pic that irks you so much.
http://i53.tinypic.com/28at0ea.jpg
Yes, I do,
because it seems to be the EXACT opposite of the White stereotype of the drunken, boorish, overbearing, patriarchal, womanizing, arrogant, two-timing, native Asian male. Does he magically turn from frat boy to nerd while crossing the ocean? Or does one generation in America turn the tiger into an impotent pussycat?
Leigh,
Bleh, I’ve done my bit to help him see the obvious. But frankly, I don’t think he’d admit to it after all the bragging and shenanigans he’s put on here. Some people just push it too far to the point where they can’t back down, especially after they’ve been so publicly proved wrong.
But I digress… People don’t agree with you unless they already agree with you, and nobody truly changes anyone’s mind. Especially not the minds of ignorant hypocrites with too much time on their hands =/
Honestly, the best part is Randy however. Perfect example of how racism survives despite all experiences or evidence to the contrary. (Randy’s in an IR relationship, also from the Bay Area, so his experiences with diversity have only seemed to increase/justify his own subtle racism. And he’s demonstrated that here at Abagond’s MANY times before.)
In the end, you can only give them (I mean ignorant people by and large) the chance, or the opportunity to rethink their position, to step outside of the little cognitive box they’ve shoved their insecurities and prejudices into and hope that they’ll understand — someday at least — that the world simply isn’t as simple as they want it to be, and that people really are just people: flawed, imperfect, often contradictory, and extremely dedicated to protecting themselves from anything that undermines the carefully built structures they’ve made around their egos, fragile as they are.
But more importantly, for us to combat racism outside of the blogosphere, we need to confront it amongst ourselves. That includes me, and that definitely includes guys like Randy, and Hugh, who actually think of themselves as being against racism. The irony is so palatable, you could eat it with a fork and knife.
Awesome post, Zek! Thank you for your comments. I appreciate it. Some people are remarkably obtuse and willfully obstinate. Ah, well, you can only do so much, right?
Indeed. However, I’m Filipino. We use forks and spoons. (It’s an inside joke.)
@ Leigh
Haha! how do you Filipinos cut your food that way! lol!
That’s weird…. Why did my name just get changed to veritasvenustas?
Latin isn’t it? truth and beauty… or something like that??
leigh204:
Philippines.
As for your list of Asian female leaders, those are certainly laudable accomplishments, however the reality on the ground seems to be that the average Asian woman still lives in a predominantly patriarchal and often chauvinistic society.
@veritasvenustas:
Gosh, I honestly don’t know. My mom and other native born Filipinos do. I use a knife and fork. Here’s a better explanation as to why Filipinos use forks and spoons.
Hope this works:
To Leigh204:
The Asian fetish is predominantly white male supremacy and Asian female subordination.
Heh…. I know multiple Asian guys who say that aggressive Asian women end up with White guys because no self respecting Asian man would marry them. (These are guys who born in Asia.. not the US..) Are these comments accurate? I can think of some examples where dominant Asian women have married submissive White guys but i’d say it’s probably another stereotype like yours.
King:
I think there are several factors in play.
1. Immigrants are a self-selecting group who often have to face significant hurdles to emigrate. The “frat boy” types you refer to often don’t make it here.
2. Immigrant families (of all origins) tend to be rather strict with their children in terms of driving them to succeed in their academic careers.
3. The dating scene is different. In many parts of Asia, there is a large population of very poor young women who will seek relationships with men who can provide even modest amounts of support. Also, prostitution is more readily available.
@ Leigh
Ah! Chicken Adobe! Yum! Where is the Pansit video!!
To Randy:
As for your list of Asian female leaders, those are certainly laudable accomplishments, however the reality on the ground seems to be that the average Asian woman still lives in a predominantly patriarchal and often chauvinistic society.
I am not sure how I would measure patriarchy or male chauvinism in the US vs East Asia but I doubt 16th century Britain (which had two female rulers in succession…) was more egalitarian than the present day US.
@Uncle Milton:
Aggressive Asian women? As in certain Asian women who doggedly pursue White guys? Some are like that. Besides, why are you saying no self-respecting Asian man would marry them? Why would ANY man want to be with a woman like that whether she was Asian or not?
@Randy
The Philippines, you say? Interesting. Very interesting.
And so that begs to question: These average Asian women need liberation from this patriarchal and chauvinistic society?
@ Randy
Thank you.
But no, the Asian female outdating rate is not only high as compared to Asian males, but is also high when compared with females of ALL other ethnicities. Isn’t that similar to what the Columbia Study verifies?
It seems that we have all of these factors that appear to point to the fact that there is a social and statistical anomaly at play here. Why not simply accept that such a thing is possible?
The point isn’t that ALL AF/WM relationships are based on a fetish, in fact, unless you know any couple in question, you cannot assume that their motives for being together are questionable. However, on a macro basis, it seems very likely that the nexus of all of these things we’ve been discussing is an overarching mutual pathology between certain AFs and WMs.
@King:
Exactly. It certainly boggles the mind that Asian men in America are considered weak, sexless geeks, but oh-how-it-changes to chauvinistic, philandering wife-beaters once you’re in Asia.
In due time, King. In…due…time.
@King:
Yup. I don’t know why certain individuals insist I was referring to all AF/WM. And I personally know some AFs (relatives/friends) with WMs and their relationships isn’t based on a fetish. But if see the ones with the Asian fetish, you can clearly see the difference.
To Leigh204:
Besides, why are you saying no self-respecting Asian man would marry them?
I am repeating what some Asian guys I knew (Gen 1.5 eg not born in the US..) said, not what I said or believe.
Aggressive Asian women? As in certain Asian women who doggedly pursue White guys? Some are like that.
No.. aggressive as in type A personality, assertive…. gets her way, etc. Another term that may apply would be high maintenance.
Why would ANY man want to be with a woman like that whether she was Asian or not?
Why would any man want to be with a sexually aggressive woman…? Uummm…. well all I can say is..some do. The number of rational guys I know who have been with pycho (but they have to be good looking ..) women is too numerous to count. Sort of the male response to “good girls” being with “bad boys”.
@King
Besides Randy, I have nv heard of that “white” stereotype about native Asian males.
Also, those two sets of Asian male stereotypes do not sound opposite to me. You don’t need to be a popular alphamale in order to be a chauvinistic pig.
I’m pretty agnostic on the validity of those stereotypes, but I sill wouldn’t write them off. I mean out of all groups Asian American women spend the most time with Asian American men. You’d expect them to know Asian males the best…
I’m pretty agnostic on the validity of those stereotypes, but I sill wouldn’t write them off.
I agree, stereotypes have a basis in reality, but that reality is then distorted to account for an entire population, rather than a vocal minority.
However, my hazardous guess as to why AW/WM couples are far more numerous than any other interracial pairing is not fetishization (though I’m certain it plays a part at the macro, subconscious level of attraction) but that White men see Asian women as “almost White” in the way that HBDers see Asian people as “almost White” — as in, they are a rough equivalent on the socio-hierarchical scale of civilization in our racist society’s mindset (based in part on their perceived status as the “model minority”) which makes these relationships more… palatable than other interracial pairings.
But, as I said, this is a guess. A hunch. However my cousin who is dating an Asian man seems to believe that Asian men (but not her boyfriend) are far more interested in White women because — according to her — White women are “easier to get along with”, whatever that means.
Which leads me conclude that in reality, it’s just the rare novelty of dating outside your race that leads people to construct these stereotypes about how all Asian women/White men/Asian men/Black women/Black men/Latinas/Latinos/whatever are like to date. If more people dated interracially, we’d probably see that every Just-So story about why This Race or That Race date each other is merely a way to explain the relatively rare occurrence of said interracial couple.
Just my two cents. Spend ‘em how you will.
I believe the main thing that drives the so-called Asian fetish is not any sort of fetish, self-hated or even stereotyping, though that stuff no doubt goes on, but the simple fact that in America Asians are the least racially segregated of anyone. By far. It is not even close. Most whites, blacks and Latinos live in racial ghettos. Most Asian Americans do not. They mostly live in places that are mostly white. So there are just way more opportunities for Asians and whites to meet and date than any other interracial pairing. And since it seems to be women who apply race to dating the most, Asian female/white male pairings become the most common.
Abagond,
but the simple fact that in America Asians are the least racially segregated of anyone.
I disagree. At least, I disagree in part. Here in San Francisco, Asians are quite segregated from the rest of the population. Whether you’re talking about Chinatown or The Sunset district, most Asians seem to congregate in their own neighborhoods, just like other groups. I think only in ‘burbs are they less segregated.
@ Randy:
A quarter of Thai men have more than one wife, according to a study by Thai doctors. “I would say that around 25 to 30 per cent of married Thai men maintain another wife, in another house”
I have great trouble believing this figure is anywhere near close to accurate, primarily because it means that about 25-30% of Thai men are monopolizing 50-60% of Thai women – it seems logistically improbable and unsustainable. (Forgive my very rough calculations.) In addition, the sheer cost of maintaining a second wife seems prohibitive for most men in a fairly poor country.
I could certainly accept that 25-30% of Thai men might have some kind of “bit on the side” here and there, and I would guess that mistresses/”minor wives” are far more prevalent for the wealthier classes, as it is in the West.
And in any case, Thailand is not all of Asia, and it exists in its own bubble of odd sexual norms.
The rates of infidelity among men in the West, incidentally, tend to get estimated at anywhere between 20% and 50%.
In my own travels, nights out with businessmen often ended up at KTV, Gogo, and other sex-work establishments where the predominant clientele were locals.
Well I’ve never been taken to these establishments in my many travels around Asia. I’m not saying that my experiences embody the entirety of Asian culture, but I don’t think yours do either. Saying “Asian businessmen often take me to seedy establishments” might say more about the sort of people you hang with than it does about Asian culture in general.
ES,
Such extra-marital relationships aren’t inherently permanent, so these women are not “monopolized” for any lengthy period of time. Also, the level of support need not be great. I’ve heard quite a few stories of men in the Philippines supporting their mistresses with just the rice portion of their work compensation package.
My experiences are certainly anecdotal, and subject to the limitations of that type. However, they jibe with what you’ll read online about the subject.
I’ve heard similar stories from a colleague who worked for a multinational in Tokyo, as well as from a friend who regularly visits Guangdong province in China to supervise his company’s contract manufacturing.
Oddest related story: I once had my mother-in-law tell me that my father-in-law was disappointed at not being invited along to a “lad’s night out” which ended up at a gogo bar. Call me old fashioned, but that would have been just a bit too awkward.
@Zek
I agree, stereotypes have a basis in reality
-Whoa! Not all of them. Many of them do have a basis in reality, but some of them come out of f*cking nowhere! The watermelon stereotype about black ppl is a great example of a completely unfounded stereotype.
but that reality is then distorted to account for an entire population, rather than a vocal minority.
-Yes, this is the real problem with stereotypes. Racist often over-exaggerate them. I believe this is why some people are tempted to believe or pretend as if none of them even exist.
@Abagond & Zek
Idk… it’s complicated. Asian females have the highest interracial/ethinic marriages, but Asian males are the second least likely POC(behind black women) to “marry out.” That gender gap somewhat complicates the issue.
Some people will surely be inclined to fault Asian men, however, if you look at individual IR statistics btwn Asian guys & girls, you will notice AM are almost twice as likely to marry a Hispanic women than AW(who make up for that by being more likely to marry Blk & White men) are to marry a Hispanic man. Also, the AM & AW “other” marriage rate is roughly equal…
All in all, Hispanic women, Hispanic men, and Black men all have higher inter-racial/ethnic marriage rates than Asian men, so I’m not too sure about the socio-hierarchical or ethnic enclave/proximity theories.
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1616/american-marriage-interracial-interethnic
Check pg. 19
http://pewsocialtrends.org/files/2010/10/755-marrying-out.pdf
Abagond, but what you are saying does not take into account the interracial dating gender disparity. If Whites and Asians are just around each other a lot, then why don’t the numbers look the same for Asian men as they do for Asian women?
@King
I have been pondering the very same question.
It is unlikely that an Asian guy is going to go from being a shy and socially inept wallflower, to a womanizing adulterer.
Hi Abagond –
Love your blog, new to posting. Sorry this is long.
Have to disagree about the Asians being less segregated so numerically it would work out like that because 1. like King has mentioned – the gender disparity is just too high and 2. I live in LA which is arguably the most (East and Southeast) Asian city in the US and Asians live closely amongst Blacks, and especially Latinos as well as whites. So it would make sense that there are high numbers of couples featuring Black or Latino men with Asian women right? And while there are quite a few, NOTHING like the WM/AF numbers.
Personal anecdote – I myself am a Korean-American woman born in NY, in my mid 30s. What Leigh204, King and Zek have mentioned is exactly my experience, but not till I lived on the West coast. White men randomly telling me how much they like Asian chicks, telling me they’re “into Japan” (I’m Korean douchebag), asking if my “thing is slanted” (kid you not) and otherwise gawking, following and basically making me to feel like they own me. I have been harassed, slapped, groped, threatened and told “you whores should go back where you came from” after turning down white males. (I have no interest in white males.) I in my entire life cannot think of one time where an Asian, Black, Latino or Indian man has ever disrespected me like that. It is common discussion not just amongst Asian women and men but also amongst white women who have seen it repeatedly. I used to live in San Francisco and it was easily the worst city I experienced this in out of the 5 I have lived in.
Also a number of white men go out of their way to insult/denigrate Asian men. To me. An Asian woman. WTF. I noticed that a lot of white men who want Asian women do this. It disgusts me. Some of them bring up the age old (and untrue) size stereotype, which is ironic because 1. I’ve already been with Asian penises and 2. they seem obsessed with them. Or they play the white savior card and warn me about Asian men being possessive or chauvinist. Again, the irony.
Now there are Asian women who tolerate this and date these white males. Or who actually just “don’t like Asian guys”. These women IMO are a disgrace. They have internalized white racism/self hate so badly they are willing to stereotype and throw Asian men under the bus. Google Natasha Yi’s husband from that radio show in SF.
So for Hugh and Randy to blame Asian men for their own twisted logic is as someone said “more deflective white male lunacy”. Couldn’t have said it better.
@Zek:
“Bleh, I’ve done my bit to help him see the obvious. But frankly, I don’t think he’d admit to it after all the bragging and shenanigans he’s put on here. Some people just push it too far to the point where they can’t back down, especially after they’ve been so publicly proved wrong.”
Sorry, buddy, I have not been “publicly proved wrong.” I just love how you continue to type that, as if typing it makes it true. And the continued childish name-calling is great! It really helps your arguments, Zek. I continue to be a — what was it? — oh yes: “ignorant hypocrite.” Lovely. But I guess that’s all you have left. In sum: I stand by my arguments, most of which you have not responded to. Again, I guess all you have left is calling me names in posts to Leigh204 — to which she promptly and wholeheartedly agrees. LOL. Sticks and stones, Zek…
“But more importantly, for us to combat racism outside of the blogosphere, we need to confront it amongst ourselves. That includes me, and that definitely includes guys like Randy, and Hugh, who actually think of themselves as being against racism. The irony is so palatable, you could eat it with a fork and knife.”
You know Zek, your arguments are toothless, and your childish demand that I am NOT against racism I disagree with. I actually think you are smarter than that. But I definitely agree with you, here: we need to fight racism: white racism (institutional and otherwise), Asian racism, black racism, and all other forms of racism and ideologies of racial elitism and exclusivism. It is all wrong, and it is all hurtful. Truly, I could not care less if you do not think that I fight racism or not. But we do live in America, and it is to be expected that we will disagree on things.
But it is my deepest desire that we all learn to struggle through our racial struggles together, even as my Asian, Indian, and black friends and I try to do so on a regular basis. I think we will. But it’s hard. We are working to trust each other to talk about these things together, and, again, it’s hard, to be honest. But I hope that we will not stop talking and trying just because it is hard. And I certainly hope we will not stop even though you insist that our efforts are “hypocritical and ignorant” and that I am not against racism.
Cheers.
@kimberly:
Welcome, kimberly! Glad to have you. I see you’re already off to a good start with your posting. I hope to see you around here quite often.
You’ve got that right.
I’ve experienced a lot of what you’ve mentioned as well, kimberly. One time I was at a club with my significant other, this white guy proceeds to pester me. Oh, yeah, He did the, “I love Asian chicks!” schtick. I told him I wasn’t interested and my bf (he’s Asian) was there with me. He told the other guy to back off and this guy started saying racist crap to me and my bf. So my bf said to meet him outside the club and the white guy says, “Oh, whatchu gonna do now? Do some karate sh!t?” It’s funny but my significant other didn’t have any martial arts experience, but he knew enough to sucker punch the guy. Down he went. Anyway, violence doesn’t solve anything, but you open your mouth like that, don’t be surprised when someone will close it for you.
@Kimberly
(I’m SO surprised that Leigh204 jumped in and agreed with literally everything, BTW! LOL)
So, yes, and then we have the bitter Korean-American 30-something middle-aged woman … Kimberly. Kimberly has set herself up as judge, jury, and executioner in her obvious obsession to mark and humiliate all of these “disgraceful” Asian women who are dating these grotesque white men. I mean, my girlfriend was a “disgrace” wasn’t she, Kimberly? She absolutely repulses you, no? Incidentally, it gives me the creeps, but the ironic thing here about my experience in college is that the group of women (and men) who called my girlfriend a “whore” “traitor” and a “banana-slut” were mainly …[drumroll please]… Korean.
Lovely.
But I just want you to know that your post is successful — you have accomplished your goal to help everyone clearly feel your seething rage toward white men, and the Asian women who date them, as you rattle off the classic, most worn-out list of white male stereotypes without a SINGLE word of qualification. So let’s play grown-up and make it very clear that all white men who happen to date an Asian woman DO NOT act like… this:
White men randomly telling me how much they like Asian chicks, telling me they’re “into Japan,” asking if my “thing is slanted” (kid you not) and otherwise gawking, following and basically making me to feel like they own me. I have been harassed, slapped, groped, threatened and told “you whores should go back where you came from” after turning down white males.
Here we have the classic bogus implication that a simple attraction for Asian women — which a male of any race can have, including Asian males — “liking Asian women,” or being “into Japan” instantly means they have a weird fetish. Nope. That doesn’t work anymore. Even very strong attraction for a certain kind of person in no way automatically means anything other than…attraction. Can it be unhealthy? Sure. But that is the small minority.
And finally, I have never “thrown Asian men under the bus.” LOL. Yes – white guys who do that are idiots. But they are in the minority. On the contrary, if you actually took time to read my posts above, I state repeatedly that there ARE negative stereotypes of Asian men that we, as white men, must fight against. The penis thing? Of course it’s nonsense. And the typical list of Asian male stereotypes? Of course it’s bogus.
But here’s Kimberly’s creepy kicker:
Now there are Asian women who tolerate this and date these white males. Or who actually just “don’t like Asian guys”. These women IMO are a disgrace. They have internalized white racism/self hate so badly they are willing to stereotype and throw Asian men under the bus.
Ahhh yes. Of course. Anyone who dates these evil, whoring white men (who are obsessed with Kimberly, of course) are a “disgrace.” YEP. They are the sluts of the world, the self-haters who want nothing other than to trash their Asian brothers as small-dicks and feminine geeks. That’s why they date white men, right Kimberly? Ah, the joy of worn-out stereotypes!
But yeah. Mission accomplished. We get that you hate white men and the Asian women who date them. I’m sure you have more on the way, too, and that Leigh204 will be right behind you cheerleading with smiley-laden posts. LOL.
Have a good one.
^ @kimberly:
See what I mean about clueless? Just so you know, he’ll follow you around trying to pick apart your posts. Ask Zek J Evets.
Welcome Kimberly, nice to have another LA person’s perspective.
@ Hugh
What you are saying to/about Kimberly is almost textbook Minority 101.
1) A minority person expresses that they are experiencing prejudice, mistreatment, discomfort, or abuse in their interaction with White society.
2) Their complaint is met with a denial of their own experiences, an accusation of ulterior motives, an alternate agenda, bitterness, and finally, reverse discrimination—where the White person becomes the victim.
3) Their stated experiences are then made to seem ridiculous, because hey, ALL White don’t act like that – what are they trying to get away with here?
This kind of discrediting of personal experiences is not novel. You must consider What Kimberly is actually saying, not what you think that she’s saying. Only then can you decide if she’s simply “imagining everything” or if she’s making it all up, just to make Whites (and certain Asian women) to look bad.
That’s not what she said. Besides, EVERYONE is the judge and jury of their own mind. Kimberly is entitled to make observation, and to form conclusions and make personal judgements based on those observations. She is also entitled to share those opinions and observations with other people. Your accusation does not make sense.
If she was holding court on individual couples , and directly effecting their personal lives, than that would be another thing, but she is not doing that.
I was once physically attacked by a couple White bikers (motorcycle gang) based on the fact that I was walking down the street with a White guy who happened to be my Mechanic. Now, if I relayed that experience, and tied it into a larger phenomenon of prejudice and a system of historic injustice, would that be me being “bitter?” Would that mean that I am broad brushing ALL White people? Would I immediately need to follow up my story with a statement of qualification that, of course, ALL White people are not racist motorcycle gang members?
When did Kimberly’s experience become ABOUT YOU? What does your relationship with your Asian girlfriend have to do with Kimberly’s experiences? She never said once that ALL White men are like that. She was just saying that SOME White men are acting on a fetish and YOU have said the same thing yourself! However, when any example of it is ever brought up, you immediately take it as a generalization, for some reason.
If you don’t act like this, then Kimberly’s experiences are NOT about you.
Again, Kimberly never said it was the majority of White guys. But just because it’s not doesn’t mean that the problem is insignificant. Terrorists are a small minority too, but it doesn’t mean that their actions can’t effect a LOT of people. — Warning: disclaimer to follow (NO that was NOT equating White men to terrorists, it was using an example to demonstrate how the bad actions of a few can significantly effect then lives of the many)
That’s not what she said. Kimberly stated disgust at Asian women who BOTH date White men, AND then choose to denigrate all asian men in the process. That would be analogous to you being upset because a White woman was not only dating a minority, but also decided to use that opportunity to say that she is doing so because there are no White men who are worth dating. WHy do I get the idea that if that reverse scenario happened that you too would find it equally offensive?
You really seem to be reacting again to any post that points out bad action by any White men. You seem to admit that there is a problem (with a small minority of White men) but whenever someone points it out in real time, you take it either as a personal insult, or as an attack on all White men.
That is completely not the case.
Woot! Woot! Hey, King. Are you sure you’re not an insecure, Asian male talking?
So, yes, and then we have the bitter Korean-American 30-something middle-aged woman … Kimberly.
Oh lord, here we go again with the ‘bitter asian woman’ schtick. Can’t you come up with something more original. I am starting to wonder if in fact you are an asian woman, who out of some sort of guilt is writing all this bullshite.
Kimberly has set herself up as judge, jury, and executioner in her obvious obsession to mark and humiliate all of these “disgraceful” Asian women who are dating these grotesque white men.
No door knob, Kimberly is relaying anecdotal incidents based upon her own experiences. At no time does she infer her experiences to encompass a whole group.
Incidentally, it gives me the creeps, but the ironic thing here about my experience in college is that the group of women (and men) who called my girlfriend a “whore” “traitor” and a “banana-slut” were mainly …[drum roll please]… Korean.
If she was dating a racist like you, they may have been onto something!
as you rattle off the classic, most worn-out list of white male stereotypes without a SINGLE word of qualification.
Kimberly doesn’t have to qualify anything to you, that’s just it. Kimberly was speaking anecdotally based upon her own experiences. I’d hazard a guess and say this happens to quite a few asian women in some form or other. It’s like your pi**ed off because Leigh and Kimberly aren’t singing the white mans praises and hurling insults at asian men.
So let’s play grown-up and make it very clear that all white men who happen to date an Asian woman DO NOT act like… this:
Who said they did?
Anyone who dates these evil, whoring white men (who are obsessed with Kimberly, of course) are a “disgrace.” YEP.
You are delusional sir! You protest to much!
I’m sure you have more on the way, too, and that Leigh204 will be right behind you cheerleading with smiley-laden posts.
I should hope so!
@King: First off, stop making sense! This man is a racist who as you say, seeks to diminish a racialized person’s experience. They then flip the script to make it seem as if they are they wronged party. I am sure many racialized people have experienced this type of behaviour from whites as well. But according to Hugh, they are the bitter ones and the perpetrators! ‘Hugh’ should disabuse himself of these notions and quickly. Besides which Hugh, Korean men are gorgeous so I can see Kimberly’s point!
King,
Didn’t Kimberly engage in stereotyping and value judgment with this comment:
Kimberly
This is for Kimberly and Leigh:
http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/17568522/sn/451008407/name/Bae+Yong+Joon.jpg
Maybe you can better elaborate, Randy?
@ Herneith
Beware! His workout obviously involves a lot of brusque wife beating, preceded by many reps of lifting glasses of sake to his mouth.
King,
Kimberly relates several anecdotes wherein she’s annoyed at being stereotyped, but then goes on to do the same thing herself.
On the one hand she’s (understandably) peeved that white guys would “denigrate” asian men in her presence, then a few sentences later appears to “denigrate” a subset of asian women.
This type of reasoning appears incongruent.
@King:
My dear man, it’s not sake he’s drinking, but soju – a popular Korean liquor.
@HerneithKing:
You have excellent taste.
then a few sentences later appears to “denigrate” a subset of asian women.
And there’s the kicker. A part, not the whole. Some Asian women, not all Asian women. Such distinctions are important, though many conveniently ignore them =/
Which makes Kimberely’s statement quite consistent.
“My dear man, it’s not sake he’s drinking, but soju – a popular Korean liquor.”
Lol! I stand corrected.
King and Zek,
Here’s the original statement:
Kimberly:
So not only are asian women who don’t date asian men a “disgrace”, she’s stereotyped the alleged reason: “internalized white racism/self hate”.
I could list several reasons not having anything to do with self-hate why my wife and quite a few of her friends did not want to date asian men.
Even anti-stereotypers can be guilty of stereotyping, just like anti-racists can be guilty of racism.
Kind of makes you question whether or not society is benefiting from the current climate of perpetual racial and gender outrage.
@ Randy
Can you justify your wife not wanting to date Asian men?
Randy,
She’s talking about Asian women who throw Asian men under the bus. Notice she said “these women”; notice that you acknowledged she was talking about a “subset” of Asian women. She’s talking about a specific type of person, not a stereotype — since we know women like this do, in fact, exist. And that doesn’t seem at all inconsistent, or stereotyping. In fact, it’s quite rational to be upset that some people internalize racism and project it onto their own communities, particularly those of the opposite gender.
But I have a sneaking suspicion you won’t understand or see this.
Hugh,
With all due respect, it seems you have a thing for Leigh as you constantly debate with her bringing up allegations that have nothing to do with this topic. You’re just acting like a troll that’s not interested in learning and understanding from those putting in their input. You’re just here to bite the heads of people you KNOW will disagree with because your mind is idle.
Also, proving your case by posting links to news articles does very little. You only show the kind of arrogance that undermines important conversations dealing with race.
Leigh and Abagond,
I’ve been targeting the media for some time (especially in my blog) about their constant use of stereotypes, and I’ve noticed that hollywood likes to characterize Asians as “naturally martial arts experts, or convenience store clerks that can’t speak fluent English which is mostly used as racist comedy. With Asian women, it seems that the ones that are shown, which is pretty rare, are quiet, gentle, sensuous, martial artists, and mysterious villianesses. Some roles are old stereotypes rehashed while new ones show up. Do you agree, and how do you feel about such images as it relates to this topic?
The questions in my last comment are open to err’body by the way.
Oh man, did you ever hit the motherlode of truth on that one, brothawolf.
http://3.media.tumblr.com/xz9ydgzVGq3gh4v90BisrKZ8o1_500.jpg
Do you believe this is just incidental or is it motivated?
@brothawolf, Leigh204
“With all due respect, it seems you have a thing for Leigh as you constantly debate with her bringing up allegations that have nothing to do with the topic……………………because your mind is idle.”
I have also watched this, with growing tedium.
Do you suppose it’s only idleness?
It’s as if Hugh WAITS for Leigh204 to make a showing, before ‘gratifying’ himself.
He even says he loves it when she does comment…
Well King,
I think it is more motivated than incidental. Comedy sells especially if it’s offensive. Hollywood is run by mostly whites, and in the end stereotypes, white saviors, and single stories matter no matter how many times they are produced because in the end, they generate profit. At the same time, the public pays to see these films. Sometimes I wonder:
Would they see a movie where a middle to upper-class non-white family adopts a poor WHITE child and raise them to be successful?
Would they see a movie about a NON-WHITE teacher teaching and saving inner-city youths and still fit outside the usual stereotypes?
Would they see a movie about a nonwhite superhero that DOESN’T give into their respective stereotypes, and the movie was NOT a comedy? For examples, an Asian superhero that doesn’t use martial arts to fight or a black superhero that wasn’t a ball player, and the movie wasn’t a comedy.
Would they see a movie that teaches race and racism HONESTLY?
I don’t know for sure. I’m thinking they probably won’t. But these and other questions are important. Hollywood helps perpetuate stereotypes, and the audience buys it. Overall, it’s motivated by more and more dollars. It’s almost like being addicted to drugs. Come to think of it, it is like being addicted to drugs. Both can mess up one’s perception of reality if used often.
Bulanikgirl,
Yep. There is something about Leigh that he likes which is why he continues to respond to her responses. I think he’s doing it for attention, hers especially.
@brothawolf
Hmm, yah. I note the title of the post….
King:
As previously discussed, women occupy a lower social tier throughout most of Asia. Some of the main issues are infidelity, domestic violence, and a lack of assistance in the domestic sphere.
Regarding the first point, not only did this problem present in her own house, but also for many if not most of her friends. Her 2 closest friends in the US, who she didn’t know back in the Philippines, also had mistress/second mama drama.
So after putting herself through school, leaving home to build a career, acquiring an H1B visa, and emigrating to the US, she didn’t want to be treated as second-class citizen in a relationship.
Several of her friends who had come to the US years before and married a Filipino man found to their chagrin that were in the same type of relationship as back home, with their husbands hardly lifting a finger around the house / caring for the kids.
In her words: “I didn’t come all this way to raise a husband as well as to raise my children.”
Given that most Asians in the US are relatively recent immigrants, even if a guy is 100% culturally American, there’s a strong likelihood of having 1st gen. parents who’ll expect more traditional gender roles.
Here’s a non-secret: most asian nationalities don’t like / look down on other asian nationalities. So while a mixed-asian couple may have a great relationship, the inlaws may despise each other, creating problems.
Given these factors, she thought that asian men were a riskier bet than white guys who were more likely to have been raised to value gender equality.
You probably don’t see the problem. But I’ll point it out anyway.
The Philippines is a populous little archipelago which is home to about 92 million people, plus many more millions spread throughout the diaspora. The archipelago consists of 7,107 islands. There are either 120 or 175 languages spoken there {depending on your method of classification.) There are eleven indigenous ethnic groups. There are at least 13 tribal groups—not to mention all the non-indigenous peoples who now live there.
So when your wife makes it sound as if her own experience is indicative of ALL of this diverse population and geography, it causes me to take pause. Your wife, when in the Philippines, existed within a subculture within a larger whole. There is NO WAY that she could possibly have judged whether her own experiences (and those of her friends) were universally consistent across ALL other Filipino subcultures, and ethno-linguistic groups.
Now magnify that same principle across the 17 other East and South-East Asian Nations, and the many Pacific Island ethnic groups. Can your wife’s personal experiences, in any way, reflect the billions of people represented there, comprising the greater portion of the world’s population? Can she really just say, “Been there, tried that, Asian Men are bad partners?”
This is a TRAVESTY of textbook generalization and oversimplification, and… sorry but… it’s also racism! The assumption that ALL men with dark hair and almond-shaped eyes are lazy and overbearing philanderers, based on very narrow personal experiences, is a racist notion.
Besides, here in So. Cali, I grew up around Filipino guys. We played basketball together. I went over their houses on special occasions to eat Chicken Adobo, Pansit, and Lumpia. I hung out with them enough to know this reality: There are some VERY good Filipino husbands who respect and love their wives and families in every way. I’m thinking of the Fathers of my friends who were out in the yard tending to the family gardens that they had planted, or making repairs to the house, or walking back with groceries from the corner market. These guys went to church every Sunday with their families, they knew how to cook, they positively spoiled their daughters. They tended to be very humorous, and self deprecating and very open to people of other cultures.
Do you mean to tell me that your wife didn’t know any families like that? Were they really ALL bad? I knew Filipino mothers who, at least looked happy, as their husbands teased them, and laughed with them, or played Bahay-Kubo (a funny Filipino game that involved singing and hand clapping). Were ALL Filipino men bad examples? Were ALL Asian men a bad risk?
There really was no justification for an absolute and wholesale rejection of All Asian men as marriage partners. Your wife should have treated Asian men like all other men – to judge them as individuals and by their words and actions, not their culture or race. What she did was wrong.
@ brothawolf
.
Wow, I couldn’t have said it any better myself! And I agree with your observations about what kind of movies the mainstream audience wants to see/will tolerate. Hollywood is in the business of bread and circuses, they give people what will entertain them, according to their perceived sensibilities. I’d say that some of it is incidental, and some of it is intentional.
On one hand, people aren’t going to flock to pay for a movie that calls them out, exposes their prejudices, and makes them feel uncomfortable (thank you sir, may I have another?). But on the other hand, I think that there is a subtle backdrop of propaganda in the overall scope of films that get made each year. It seems very difficult to cast minorities in leading roles as the everyman, rather than background sidekicks and cutouts. Denzel and Will Smith may be the exceptions.
@King:
I’ve read your post just now and, King, EVERYTHING you mentioned was spot on! This is one of the best posts since this discussion on Asian Fetish began. Oh, I’m sure Randy and that certain person will chime in and try to refute everything, but one thing is certain, you and some others can definitely see what is going on.
I was referring to this excellent post:
Thanks Leigh, but I’m afraid that Randy will disagree with you.
Some of the main issues are infidelity, domestic violence, and a lack of assistance in the domestic sphere.
Of course this doesn’t happen in North America or among white folk. Thank the lord for white folk! And you have the nerve t say Kinberley stereotypes white men?
Given these factors, she thought that asian men were a riskier bet than white guys who were more likely to have been raised to value gender equality.
I guess any other multi-generational ethnicity would be out of the question then as whites raise their kids to be gender equal. Everyone else is a patriarchal arsehole!
@Herneith:
High five!
@ King:
Of course, he would. He wouldn’t be Randy if he didn’t.
“I guess any other multi-generational ethnicity would be out of the question then as whites raise their kids to be gender equal. Everyone else is a patriarchal arsehole!”
Not Martians.
@ King
I agree with Leigh, excellent comment.
Thanks Abagond.
Now, if Randy would just make it unanimous.
@ King:
yes, yes, and yes.
My own partner is perhaps not so different to Randy’s actually. She finds a lot of guys from her own country and ethnic group (Malaysian Indians) to have patriarchal attitudes that make them incompatible with her. But at the same time, she also knows that isn’t everyone, and there are great guys out there too.
I have no doubt that most of the world is several decades behind the West in terms of attitudes to women, but within every culture there is a range of attitudes; it’s not possible to paint a sort of dichotomy where Asians are patriarchal philanderers and white guys aren’t.
King,
After the standing ovation you received for your last comment, I’m loath to offer a discordant counterpoint. However, I’m guessing that you’d prefer the honest gambol of genuine debate. So here goes.
Your comment appears to be logically divided into 3 main points:
1. My wife’s extrapolation of her experiences of gender non-parity in the Philippines to the rest of Asia is fallacious, an error of stereotyping, and is probably racist.
2. You’re personally acquainted with seemingly happy Filipino families in SoCal, which argues against the wholesale dismissal of such men as being poor husband choices.
3. Judging men as a group, and not as individuals is an error in judgment, which you declare to be “wrong”.
1. Extrapolating one person’s experiences to all of Asia is wrong.
King:
You are right that such simplification is potentially a “travesty of textbook generalization”, except of course if it’s true.
I’m willing to be convinced on your point if you can tell me which nation or culture in Asia offers a similar level of gender parity for the average woman as in the West, specifically in the areas of fidelity, accountability for domestic violence, and male spousal support in the domestic sphere.
2. You know some great Filipino husbands.
I know some fine ones too. I drink beer with them and our kids play together. I doubt that the ones in the US cheat on their wives as much as the ones back home, or at least I haven’t observed that as much firsthand.
Such a small sample size does not contradict my wife’s perspective which was about “relative risk”. Also, you probably had little insight from your interactions as to whether or not they had mistresses in their younger years, or what expectations they had for their wives based upon gender beliefs.
Two additional factor to considers:
1. What is the prevailing attitude of FilAms towards “fobby” wives? My wife’s observation was that many of these men choose FOBs because they’re looking for a traditional wife, not an independent go-getting career women.
I’d be interested to hear what Eurasian Sensation’s partner would say about the prevailing attitude of Malaysian-Indian men in Australia who choose FOB Malaysian-Indian wives.
2. Color. It’s no secret that throughout most of Asia, lightness is highly valued. This is much more a class than a racial distinction. The bias is not subtle, rather one is exposed to it daily in ways that your sensitive, progressive Westerner might be shocked at. Darker skinned women like my wife are further incented to date white men because they’re much less likely to be considered less attractive for their skin color, either by potential husbands or their families.
3. Judging men as a group, and not as individuals is an error in judgment, which you declare to be “wrong”.
This last point seems uncharacteristically impertinent. Are you not committing an error in judgment yourself in judging the perspective of my wife and Eurasian Sensation’s partner?
Having not lived through what they’ve lived through, not experiencing the hardships which they’ve endured, are you really in a position to render such an absolute moral judgment?
Finally, I’d just remind you that the original belief was about relative risk of dating partners based on demographics, not about whether “all men” are this way or that way.
Not at all, I’m actually interested in your responses and reasoning. I didn’t really expect that you would agree with me outright. Your summarization of my 3 main points is completely accurate, thank you. I hope you won’t mind my rebutting some of your points, in turn?
I think you are making a logical error here. You are trying to make an argument as to how an individual should be judged by referring to the statistics of the nation that he lives in, rather than on his own merits. The argument is not, which country has the overall best record. We don’t judge people based on how well their countries of origin compare to other countries. We shouldn’t hire people on that basis, we shouldn’t exclude people on that basis, and we shouldn’t marry people based on that.
When an Asian woman first meets a White guy, does she just assume that he’s safe, based on his skin color and where he was born? I hope not. She must still date the man, and observe him, and then make a judgment about him. So if she has to do this with a White American anyway, then why would she exclude the Asian guy outright, based only on where he was born or how he looks? Is the White man an individual where the Asian man is just a statistic?
No, the point stands. Judging a person based solely on their “group” is still clearly unfair, and clearly wrong. That is what “prejudice” is.
2. I know some great Filipino husbands.
So, you know some fine Filipino husbands too, but none of them would have made suitable husbands for your wife to have married? That sounds like another breakdown in logic. The problem is not with your wife recognizing a social trend in her country of origin. The problem is not that your wife ended up marrying a White American guy. The trouble is that she extrapolated her personal experiences into a rule that covered every Asian man on the face of the earth, based on what happened in her village, her town, or her apartment complex in Manilla.
— Fresh off The Boat Wives
Traditional wives in traditional couplings are no less legitimate than independent go-getting career women. It is a lifestyle choice, and if both of the participants are of the same mind, then I don’t see your point. And by the way, there are PLENTY of White guys who are also eagerly looking for “traditional Asian wives” as well. This is a quote from one of the many sites:
“Many of you may have tried the dating sites in your own country; Match.com and similar. You pay a joining fee, send out a hundred “winks” or emails and if your lucky you may get the odd reply once in a while. As you get older, are you finding it more difficult to meet a suitable partner? Are you finding that modern western women have become somewhat de-feminised? Often looking down on any man that doesn’t fit their ideal image. An image the media continually displays for them. Do you wonder if there might be a better way to find your dream partner? Many western men are now seeking an Asian wife… etc.”
http://www.isanlove.com/page2.htm
— Color
It’s class based on color, or “Colorism.” It’s essentially the same as racism.
WHAT!? (cough!!) Are you saying that White men are sought out.. because they are known to be so open minded about Dark Skin!!???
3. Judging men as a group, and not as individuals is an error in judgment, which you declare to be “wrong”.
Yes.
You see, whether racism is wrong or not does not depend on what brought someone to be a racist. There are always extenuating circumstances.
- The way I was brought up
- Some bad experiences I had with certain people of that race
- Social pressures
- Misinformation
But none of that makes the wrongness of it right, any more than my driving on the right-hand side of the road in London makes it the correct side of the street to drive on because I was taught to drive on that side in California.
It’s not personal Randy. I don’t say that your wife is a bad person, or that she’s an immoral person, or mean. But you don’t have to be any of those things to be wrong. I am wrong myself at least every day, on one thing or another.
The bottom line is that being aware of a cultural problem does not give one license to broadly discriminate. There is no harm in checking out the compatibility and suitability of Asian guys in the same way that one would for White guys, Black guys, or Hispanic guys. And every time that your wife repeats her theories in the hearing of younger Asian women, she is hurting someone and distorting their views.
Every time you come online and repeat these ideas that you can determine the “risk” of an individual based on their overall ethnic group, instead of getting to know the person and giving them the opportunity to prove themselves as individuals, you hurt people. There are Asian guys out there who are genuinely nice guys, and are having trouble finding wives because of all the negative rumors being spread about them. They don’t get a chance to prove who they are. Evidently they are too “risky” to even try out.
How can that not be wrong?
King,
You raise an interesting question: are people individuals? Only somewhat. Otherwise you wouldn’t have unique tribal, ethnic, and national customs and cultures found in discrete places around the world.
People tend to be products of their cultural environment, and in the West that means more respect for gender equality than in the East. I know it’s not so fashionable to point out positive characteristics about white/Western folks around here, but this reality is simply the case. Therefore, it’s no great leap to predict that men who grew up in the west are more likely to favor gender equality than men who grew up in the East.
As previously stated, I think it’s a fairly accurate statement to make that such patriarchal attitudes are not just found in a single town or city, but rather are quite common amongst a bogglingly large area and a diverse population. My challenge to find an exception to this still stands.
Correct. You may wish to read Abagond’s post, “Black women that white men like”, wherein he and quite a few of the commenters share the observation that white men who are open to dating black women generally care much less about skin tone than do those within the black community.
A similar dynamic prevails in asian communities. You might be surprised at how rampant colorism really is, even in the US. I still hear colorist statements on a regular basis from friends, family, and even strangers.
What’s interesting about this discussion is that people discriminate against potential mates all the time based upon superficial characteristics such as
height, weight, hair color, etc and there’s not nearly the same hue and cry, even though these characteristics offer zero predictive indicators about a person’s relationship potential.
However, “culture of origin” does in fact offer some predictive qualities (though certainly not close to 100%), and yet it causes such consternation.
Why should culture of origin matter? As explained above, people tend to be products of their environment. I think 2 other relevant factors relate to this:
- A person’s family can have an impact on one’s relationship. Except for strict “nuclear family” arrangements, you don’t just marry an individual. Your mate might be a freewheeling liberal, but what about the in-laws?
- As people grow older, they tend to adopt more traditional values and norms. Any of Abagond’s readers who are late-30s and older have surely observed this amongst their friends and relatives. I’ll further postulate that this “cultural drift” is likely even more pronounced among those who maintain close extended family / clan ties.
Mate selection for women is a huge gamble, even more so than for men. I don’t begrudge them for desiring to improve their odds of a compatible match, even if that process is politically incorrect. One might argue that idealism is a luxury, and that pragmatism is the bread and butter for those who face difficult choices.
That’s incorrect. The fact that individuals may follow group customs does not mean that they cease to be individuals. People choose to what extent (if at all) the will follow group customs or identity.
That’s far too simple. For one thing, it is peoples choices that creates the cultural environment in the first place. For another, cultural environments are constantly evolving, and the engine of this evolutionary change is people making choices about culture. Thirdly, there is never just one culture, but many cultures and counter-cultures within any sizable group of individuals. And lastly, people opt out of the parts of their culture that they disagree with or are uncomfortable with all of the time. Your understanding of culture is much too limited to reflect the true gamut of individual choices that are always available within any culture.
That doesn’t mean that cultural trends don’t exist. But it does mean that you can’t predict a person’s actions, attitudes, or beliefs, simply by tying them to a certain culture.
Consider what you are saying. You personally don’t know many of these people (not a significant percentage of them) but nevertheless, you believe that you know how they think. It doesn’t matter how many languages, or tribes, or islands they live on. You feel capable of understanding their oppressive and “patriarchal” tendencies. Are you really in a position to render such an absolute moral judgment?
Consider for a moment that you may be somewhat shortsighted. Are you familiar with Taoist philosophy? Let me ask you this question. Which is stronger, Yin or Yang? Yet Yin is Female and Yang is Male. How is it that they are equally balanced in power, yet opposed in nature? Do you realize that the Taoist ideal is to balance masculine and feminine roles, each having dominance in it’s own sphere of influence, each leading or following in the domain of the other?
There are always abuses (just as there have been in the West) but to consider all Asian cultures to be oppressive and domineering to women is to misunderstand how Asians traditionally view their place in nature. A husband leads in certain things, and a Wife leads in certain things, they both have their duties and roles that bring honor upon the and their families. As an outsider you cannot simply assume that your Western ideas are superior.
Abuse philandering, and bullying, is one thing, but that has happened in all societies to women. There are good men and bad. Don’t assume that because men and women hold traditional roles within their culture that they are somehow backward or less advanced than you are, Even among those who are philanders, many of those men would not think of failing to provide for their families as many Western men are wont to do.
http://www.ktre.com/story/12163401/top-ten-list-of-texas-most-wanted-child-support-evaders?redirected=true
I’ll finish up later if I can.
@ Randy
White men pay slightly less attention to a black woman’s skin tone while making for it by paying attention to whether or not she has “European Facial Features.” Something that black men don’t really care about. Everytime you post, you always ignore factors that hurt your argument.
@ Randy:
I’d be interested to hear what Eurasian Sensation’s partner would say about the prevailing attitude of Malaysian-Indian men in Australia who choose FOB Malaysian-Indian wives.
It’s a bit complicated, because Malaysian-Indians tend to be far more Westernised than Indian-Indians. Particularly the educated and wealthy. So as in most Asian countries, the attitudes are varied and transitioning. My partner is a FOB but is not “fobby” if you know what I mean.
Something else I’ll add is that at least in my part of the world, there is another reason that Asian-Australian guys date/marry FOB Asian girls. It’s because so many Asian-Australian girls are with white guys, so Asian-Australian guys are often finding love amid the new arrivals.
Actually Randy there is a lot of truth in what you say about darker-skinned Asian women sometimes being appreciated more by foreigners than by their own people. I’ve heard some Indonesians wondering why Western men would go for someone who looks like a “village girl” (ie. is darkish).
But at the end of the day, good-looking is good-looking, and while dark skin may slightly downgrade the perception of a woman, pretty women are still going to have plenty of suitors.
Eurasian Sensation:
You can probably imagine that such a woman, after hearing this type of talk for decades, might have her fill and grow tired of it.
Cute!
I dated one Asian female. I remember when she introduced me to her mom, it was like, W T F—. Well, at that moment she realized I was Black. I thought I would laugh my ass off!! Asian women are beautiful, but so are many other races of women. I believe that the only reason Asian women go for the white guys is for money and power. I would marry an Asian woman in a minute. They are GREAT!!, in bed because that’s one way they show their love. And they’re damn good at it.
I’ve been crazy about Asian women every since I was a kid. I married two of them though not at the same time of course. (laughing) My first was a Korean school teacher. She was quiet, very nice, and good looking. Sorry to say she bowed to family pressure and we divorced. I’m biracial and that didn’t set will with her family since they wanted her to marry white. My current wife’s filipina. We’ve been married over 21 years, have 5 wonderful children, two lovely grandaughters. My beloved is ‘good as gold’ and I’m so lucky to have such a wonderful person in my life.
I think the Asian fetish is disgusting and dehumanizing. I notice that when it comes to asian males they’re viciously bashed by white men. I notice that the stereotypes about non-white men are designed to give white men an advantage in the dating department. I get the feeling that if white men weren’t upheld as the ideal man they would have to compete just as fiercely as other men. I think many white men cannot compete against other men which is why they need these dumb stereotypes to persist.
@ Rosanna:
Yes, I notice that, too. I find it amusing the white men who bash Asian men make comments about the size of Asian men’s penises. As if the size of their penises are a measure of what true men are. Men are not sexual organs alone. Not only that, these white men with the fetish say Asian men are dominating, sexist, and patriarchal. Oh, and white men aren’t? Give me a break.
What? And here I thought Asian women were submissive, meek, and docile.
THIS NEVER HAPPEN IN THE TRUE ASIA…just outside the Asia motherlands, and i’m a thai woman from the true Asia sphere. i’m a translator working in Asia, and was born in my motherland and grow up in my motherland. thailand is uncolonized but developping country. There is instead typical pairing of whitemen and lowest class non-Thai ethic black skinned Issan women from the northeast part of Thailand, and the northeast part of thailand was in fact conquerred and have been ruled by the thai ruler minority of light gold skin for 200 years. Non-thai ethic black skinned Issan go for whitemen for money purpose only. DAYDREAMING WHITEMEN ha ha ha… EVERYTHING IS FOR MONEY OF WHITEMEN…THIS IS WHAT HAPPENING IN THE TRUE ASIA. Whitemen for me and the rest of thai ethic women of light gold skin are not at all attractive but have wrinkling skin. Just poorest non-thai ethic women in the norhteast and the south of Thailand conquerred by thai siam go for whitemen for financial purposes or for MONEY only, nothing else.
Did my own experiment on some dating sites, as a Asian female in her late 30′s who prefers her own race. Here’s what I’ve discovered, there are not that many Asian men joining. And the few who are viable, usually cap their age range much lower than themselves as compared to other races.
Now if 99% of the messages I receive are from white men, and if not my first choice, I’m not against such unions either, guess which I will probably end up with?
The point? There are just more white people!
^ Gee, it sounds like you are preferring to use dating sites to meet people, and those that you frequent are geared mostly for white people.
Did you consider using
- dating sites that are more focused on including more Asians
- medium other than dating sites to meet people
I must admit, many Asian men might be looking for younger women. So, think to yourself … what would men who are closer middle-aged do to meet people.
White men with an Asian Fetish are easy to spot. They usually think all Asian women are hot. LOL! White Men who don’t have an Asian Fetish but end up marrying an Asian woman are usually the normal guys.
Rosy I don’t know about all Asian women being hot but I do know mine is. (LOL!) We’ve been married for 23 years, have five university educated kids, and two honor roll grandchildren. God willing we plan to have a big party for our hoped for 25 Wedding Anniversary. Under God shes’ the light of my life. Am I white-nope-tri-racial (Native American, Black, Jewish); nice post