Macon D, on his ever-interesting blog Stuff White People Do, quoted anti-racist writer Shelly Tochluk. Here is a bit of it. She is speaking as a white American:
However, many of us find ourselves looking at other groups and longing for the connection we imagine they feel with their roots, their homeland, their culture. Many white folks can be heard saying, “We don’t have culture. They have culture.”
…
I know that I am not alone. I hear the same sentiments too much from other white people. If anything, this is one of the truest hallmarks of whiteness that I have yet encountered. There is a hole within many of us, created when our families gave up our culture in order to be successful in the United States.
Heartfelt and honest, no doubt, but it is still maddening to hear it.
A lost homeland? Their homeland is made up of the lost homelands of others: the United States of America.
No rootedness? They live in a country – in a world! – where their culture is top dog. Where their culture is taught in schools across the country and shown on televisions round the world. Where their food and drink is sold in the four corners of the earth! How much more rooted can you be?
Lack of a culture? They have one of the most powerful cultures in history, like the Romans, the Persians and the Chinese, one that threatens other cultures.
White Americans have a culture just like everyone else: they have strange holidays and special foods, they have their own way of dressing, of talking, of family life, their own feelings about dogs, their own ideas about music, female beauty, skin colour and disciplining children. They have their own books, songs, television shows and films. They have blue jeans, rock music and hamburgers. Baseball and Starbucks.
They have their own language, which is taught in every school in the land as “proper English”. White Americans even speak English with an accent – which they call “having no accent”.
Whatever old ways Tochluk’s family lost from the old country they were replaced by their White American counterparts. It is how they lost their foreignness. The hole was filled. It had to be. How else can she sing and dance and talk and cook and tell stories to her children?
Many white Americans seem to see themselves as plain, ordinary and boring. “Generic”, I think, is the word. It is everyone else who is different, interesting, colourful or “exotic”.
Well, that is a point of view. They are so used to their own culture, like water to a fish or refrigerator noises, they take it so much for granted, it is so much a part of what they think of as “being a normal person”, that they do not see it. Just like how they do not hear their own accent – or see themselves as “white”.
See also:
- The Shelly Tochluk quote in full at the blog Stuff White People Do
- Other reactions:
- “White people have no culture” - about Tochluk’s confusion of culture with race
- “White people have no culture” - about Tochluk’s confusion of culture with race
- White people think people of colour have more culture
- White American culture
- white people
- white privilege
- How white people think
- acceptable blackness
- A Guide to Anglos
Thanks for the shoutout, Abagond. Yes, it’s maddening all right, and I think you go along way here toward explaining both some ways that whites actually do have a fairly common culture among themselves (though such other factors as social class and geographic region mess with the idea of a common white American culture), and why whites think they don’t–why it’s not labeled, in their minds, “white.” Just for the record, Tochluk’s book makes it clear that she finds this maddening too, and so do I.
I agree almost-wholeheartedly with your assessment, Aba. But I have to agree with the original author’s assessment in a way: there is no such thing as a common white culture. Sure, maybe in stereotypical ways. But that’s just that: stereotypes. Not authentically defined, just perception. Same with the idea of “acting black”, what’s that? That’s just as maddening as what you and the original author are saying about the existance of white culture.
I love your articles but I have to disagree. The culture you speak of is an American culture…not a white culture. Its comprised of a blending of european cultures,and every other ethnic group that comes to the US. My father is from the south and chicken friend steak, grits, fried okra etc…was part of my californian upbreaking…along with sushi, papusas and lasagna. I think of myself as an all american girl. I listen to classical, country, hip hop, jazz, R&B, rock, salsa and pretty much anything else.
I think I can find something in common with anyone I meet – white is not a culture, its a race. You could be white and born in africa or you could be ‘black’ and be belgian, english, french, german, russian, scottish etc. I am American. My ancestors were American Indians, Germans and Scotts. My brother in law is American and his ancestors come from arica and latin america.
To define my self as simiply “white” would be to limit myself. And now that I think about it…”american girl” is limiting…I am…Davida..Made up of all my life experiences, good or bad, wife, mother, butterfly and gypsy child…all of that and more…we shouldnt limit ourselves with labels.
sorry about typos above – I can NOT type on a straight keyboard.
I think she’s right White Americans are culturally challenged, everything that you call culture either it came from other countries and was slightly modified or is a very weak cultural manifestation, you cannot compare the cultural manifestations of the Romans and the Chinese with the Americans. it’s like comparing gold to lead.
I know some whites are made uneasy by calling anything “white”, but the fact is white Americans share a common culture that is different than black American culture. Racism is a part of that culture. It is important to see this. It is also American and not just white in the sense that it is different than British or French culture. Thus “white American”.
Two points:
First, no culture is pure. The Romans took things from the Greeks, Egyptians and Babylonians. The Chinese took from the Manchus, Mongols and now the West. A strong culture will do that. It is not concerned about losing its soul, its supposed purity. Only threatened cultures think that way.
Second, the people who live in a culture are all different. They think for themselves, they have different experiences. They are not mindless, culturally programmed robots; they are not living stereotypes. And, this being America, many have experience of other cultures: “My parents came from …, I grew up in a … neighbourhood, I went to a … school, now I live in ….”. Etc.
So:
American culture is a big mash up, because Americans themselves come from all over and mix together, just like with Davida, but that does not mean there is not some common culture shared by the broad mainstream of the country. In fact, outside of certain cities, like New York, San Francisco, Miami and Los Angeles, the country has a sickening sameness.
Most of what you see on American television is part of that common culture. And most of us know that that mainstream is way way more white than black, far more Anglo than Latin, far more Protestant than Catholic, Muslim or Jewish.
Abagond, I see Macon’s point being that “white” culture is bland and here, tied to country rather than race.
Macon D: I am glad Tochluk saw it as maddening too. From what you quoted of her in your blog post I would have never bought her book.
There is no unified white American culture. The distinction Agabond fails to draw is that between a culture — an identified set of behaviors, beliefs, mannerisms, etc. that a group uses to self-identify among themselves a certain kinship — and socioeconomic hegemony that accompanies majority status.
This is why whites divide ourselves into sub-cultures: Jewish Americans; NASCAR fans; triathletes. It is natural to seek fellowship among a larger group of like-minded and like-natured humans.
Many whites are not born into such a sub-culture. Davida’s example is one. Sub-cultural identity was sacrificed by parents and grandparents chasing the American dream through their diaspsora. Thus, many white people themselves searching for a sub-culture with which to identify.
The drive to be a part of a legitimate culture is deeply ingrained in human nature. It explains, among other things, why gangs form.
Did you know, by the way, that “Jim Morrison” is an anagram for “Mr. Mojo Risin”?
Macon D: I am glad Tochluk saw it as maddening too. From what you quoted of her in your blog post I would have never bought her book.
Then I’m glad I clarified that. I thought it was clear that she was describing an earlier, more naive version of herself, but I can see how readers of my post would take it the way you did. I also thought that she describes well the idea of a cultural gap or “hole” felt by some whites, and how they try to fill it with apparent cultural forms other than something they see as “white culture.” They do so because, if something like that exists, they don’t see it as “white culture.”
I wouldnt say I wasnt born into one.
I am a southern baptist ministers daughter, a cops daughter and an army warrent officers daughter. My niece is mixed race and I think she should cherish all of her sub cultures.
My sister and I took her to a recent exhibit at the de young museum of Quilt art done by african american women of the tennesee hills – beautiful, I take her to the scottish games, to german folk festivals and Cynco De mayo celebrations. The art of all the cultures is amazing and beautiful. The music is wounderful. I just hate to see people limit themselves…instead of embrace all that they are and expand themselves by learning from everyone they meet. To define my self simiply as a nascar person (my husband races road race cars) or a mountain girl or whatever is to limit myself in life. I take belly dancing and love to dance to african and aribic drums, I box to salsa and latin beats, I sing blues, R&B, country – what ever strikes a cord with me.
I once had an english professor that was black. She had lived through the civil rights movement and had reason for some of her behavior – however expressed anti “white” opinions on a daily basis. We had to write an essay on someone we admire, and not put our names on the paper. She would grade the paper and then try to guess who she thought wrote it. I wrote about billie holiday. She guessed every single person of color first. When I finally told her I had written it she said that it was impossible…that a white person coldnt write about billie holidays life and music like I had…that white people dont feel the soul and movement of music like black people do. I was the only A she had given. Any person with even the tiniest drop of empathy can feel the injustice and pain she experienced in her life. My skin colors does not define me…I truelly believe this. Who I am inside does.
Firstly. it’s true that the Chinese took from the Manchus and the Mongols but they imposed their cultural identity over those nations besides they developed their own cultural uniqueness their influence over the Chinese is very weak. Chinese culture is more than 2000 years old, it takes time to form a cultural identity. their cultural influence is very diverse (philosophy)(religion)(artworks)(poetry)(monuments)(traditions) the contributions to the west and the east are many. The Romans being the dominant power took from the Greeks, but it adopted more from the Greek culture (their gods, democracy etc) than the other way around. they too made contributions to the west and the east (the roman law code). In short no culture is pure but they developed their own cultural uniqueness. that’s what it means to have a culture.
Secondly. too many times I’ve heard Americans talking about being cultural threatened being cultural self-centered without fully understanding what it means to have a culture (ex what’s wrong with building a supermarket near an archeological? site it’s only a building! that’s a good example of cultural insensitivity).
You are talking about set of beliefs, mannerisms, behaviors, that is not culture. being an individual with your own set of beliefs, personality, temperament doesn’t mean that we don’t share cultural roots and heritage. it takes cultural appreciation and understanding to preserve another culture (for example preserving customs, languages, monuments, archeologycal sites)(Peru, Mexico, Bolivia are good examples)(China is trying to do something about it too)
Free-trade, economic empowerment, individuality, ideals, all of those are American traits, none of them are cultural manifestations. I suggest you the next time you travel to a foreign country learn it’s history and try to bathe into it’s culture. if it weren’t for the gens des couleur (all the blacks in all the U.S) the U.S would be a totally bland culturally challenged country.
Cultural contributions I thank you for: Jazz and Blues.
A good book on this topic is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Nations_of_North_America
The book basically states that America does not have one culture but 9. The book was published in the early 80′s so some of the info may be dated, but still a good read.
PS
I am a first time poster, but this is one my favorite blogs to read. Unlike so many other blogs, this blog is devoted to working hard to finding the best understanding of whatever the given topic is, rather than dealing with a few egomaniacs POV.
Nice job, abagond.
“Rock music”.
Abagond, I do not think of White people when I think of rock music.
I think of Black people:
-The Mills Brothers
-Little Richard
-Ike Turner
-Etta James
-Chuck Berry
-Bo Diddley
I do not consider rock music the sole domain and creation of White people. Rock music has its roots in blues, rhythm and blues, and even gospel. Whites who came along and “took” it over—-Elvis Presley (NOT the King of Rock and Roll; Pat Boone), and either watered it down of changed it altogether, are not the sole creators of rock music. Though some White musicians did add a different style to the original rhythm and blues aspect, (“rockabilly”, country and western), the basic foundation of rock music rests on Black input, creativity and style.
Only when Alan Freed started playing Black people’s rock music as a Cleveland DJ in 1951, DID rock music cross over into the world of Whites; back then, it was called race music when used to categorize Black people’s music (thus introducing Black American music to a wider audience: Whites, Latinos, Native Americans—-the world.) In fact, the phrase “rocking and rolling”, was secular black slang for dancing or sex, and the phrase first appeared on a record for the first time in 1922 on Trixie Smith’s “My Man Rocks Me With One Steady Roll”.
“Rockin’” was also a term used by Black churches/gospel singers in the American South to mean something akin to spiritual ecstasy—”getting happy”, “shouting”.
There are many who consider the “first” rock-n-roll song to be Ike Turner and his band the Kings of Rhythm: “Rocket 88″, first performed in 1951.
Other forms of rock and roll that came along decades later, were progressive rock, alternative rock, acid rock, punk rock, and heavy metal, to name just a few.
So, you see, I take offense (not to you
when people give all the credit of the creation of rock and roll to White musicians.
Before rock and roll, before rhythm and blues, before blues, before ragtime, there were “Negro” sprituals. Black music IS America’s gift to the world. I know many people will say that White musicians have contributed to rock music, and they have. But, I do not want for people to continue to regard rock and roll as a sole creation of White people when its true origins began with Black people.
The same goes for Bluegrass music.
When I think of Bluegrass music, I do not think of White people. I think of Black people:
-The Carolina Chocolate Drops
Not Bill Monroe and the Bluegrass Boys.
He and his group became famous for bluegrass music, but, forgotten and disregarded are the many Black creators of original, authentic, bluegrass music. The various types of music combined with the people who began migrating to America in the early 1600s are considered to be the roots of bluegrass music—including dance music and ballads from Ireland, Scotland and England, as well as Black American gospel music and blues. (In fact, slaves from Africa brought the design idea for the banjo–an instrument now integral to the bluegrass sound.)
Yes, Bluegrass is music that is lively and fast..
It is “musician’s music”.
It is music from the heart and soul.
Bluegrass like jazz, gospel, blues—is truly an American music. Bluegrass is an amlgamation of country music (which also has Black American roots), Anglo-Celtic music, Appalachian folk music, and most of all, Black American Jazz and Blues, and Ragtime music.
If not for the enormous contributions of Black Americans:
-Civil Rights Movement (Diane Nash, “Mama” Dolly Raines, Mrs. Silas McGhee, Unita Blackwell, Fannie Lou Hamer, Ella Baker)
-Labor Movement (Mamma Harris, Lucy Parsons, Black Washerwomen Movement of 1866)
-Black feminists (Fannie Barrier Williams, Sojourner Truth)
-The fight against sexism (Kathleen Cleaver, Elaine Brown)
-Law (Florence Kennedy)
to name just a few. . . .
. . . .America would be a poorer place indeed.
Shelly Tochluk:
“There is a hole within many of us, created when our families gave up our culture in order to be successful in the United States.”
Indeed, there is.
Many ethnic Whites who sought to become “American” who worked their way through the wages of “whiteness” to “become white” gave up much culture—and humanity to become white. When they arrived in America, Irish, Poles, Italians, etc., were considered “in-between”—neither “White” nor “Black”. But, they paid a terrible price, along with their racial assaults upon their fellow Black citizens (Chicago Riot of 1919 [Irish]; Springfield Massacre of 1885 [Italians]; East St. Louis Riot of 1917 [Irish] to become “white”.
Once they became white, there was no going back, no reclaiming what so many had jettisoned to earn the wages of whiteness and to leave forever the connection to “blackness” if they had stayed allies with Black people.
What’s with the picture of Jim Morrison?
Wow, thanks Ann!
I know that rock music came from black music. You cannot listen to, say, Stevie Ray Vaughn or Led Zeppelin and not know that. And I know that it is not just whites who listen to it. But rock is, for all that, a part of the white culture.
I did not know about the black roots of bluegrass.
I do not know about how Italians, etc, became “white”, except in very general terms, but I imagined it was not pretty, like you say.
Jim Morrison: because he is near-naked, as in being supposedly cultureless and yet he is himself a famous white American who contributed to their culture. I hope that makes sense.
I have heard of the 9 Nations book. Thanks for the recommendation.
Another good book in this vein, but a way heavier read, is “Albion’s Seed” by David Hackett Fischer. It is about how American society grew out of not one England but four different Englands:
1629-1640: East Anglia -> New England
1640-1675: southern England -> the South
1675-1725: North Midlands -> Pennsylvania
1717-1775: Northumbria -> Appalachia
You are welcome, Abagond, always a pleasure
Now that I have posted here, this has given me the impetus to put up my post I have been meaning to start:
“On This Day In Black Music History”.
Thanks for the great post.
The answer is obviously yes but what is the nature of that culture?
The central issues of White Culture are as follows:
1) Self definition in terms of Negatives – not Positives;
2) lack of Cultural Validity;
3) reality evasion;
4) blandness;
5) false unity.
Whites think They have no culture because They do not use the qualifying adjective White when They talk about culture – as in White Culture. However, the only exception is that this is never true when Whites talk about race – as in White Race.
The idea that Whites have no culture really means Whites define Their culture solely in negatives. Negatives such as not being like those non Whites murdered to create the US in the first place – a homeland They know is not rightfully Theirs. Not having great music nor great athletes, not wanting to listen to (or even see) Blacks. In other words, a culture based on guilt as well as the superficialities, such as ways of talking, pets, blue jeans, rock music, hamburgers, baseball and Starbucks.
Whites feel a sense of rootlessness because, although Their culture is widespread, it is widespread precisely because such widespreadedness is an attempt to valorise such a superficial culture by spreading it thinly. This, instead of rooting it more deeply in the soil in fewer geographical areas. As when someone does not really believe what they are saying, because they have no evidence to back it up. They then tend either to raise their voice and/or to make personal attacks to compensate for the intellectual, moral and experiential emptiness of their comments.
That a culture is powerful is not proof of the validity of such a culture. Again, Whites use power as a solace for Their ethical emptiness rather than as proof of Their cultural rootedness. The use of power without an enemy is always the mark of the insecure who can achieve anything by no other means. It proves Whites have no culture other than through the use of naked force. White attempts to destroy other cultures are really fits of jealous rage when confronted with something that is built upon much firmer rocks and is therefore destined to be longer lasting.
The basic problem US Blacks have is that They have no culture independent of Whites because They were cut off from Their African roots. At least the Natives still have access to their heritage because They still live on the lands of their fathers. This is why, for example, Whites today claim that there were no civilisations in Africa before White men went there despite the mass of archaeological evidence to the contrary. Whites want to believe Blacks have no culture to justify slavery and racism. The partial solution here is to utilise what is good from White culture and reject the rest.
Whites feel threatened by the depth and breadth of other cultures because Their own is so lacklustre by comparison. Look at how self-confident south Asians are. Despite the relatively short-lived intrusion of the British Empire, Asians possess a culture going back thousands of years to largely explain that self-confidence. The reverse is true for most Whites whose genealogy will not go back more than 500 years.
The items listed as markers of White culture are actually markers of what was appropriated from other cultures, especially Whites’ major religion being a Levantine import and not indigenous/endogenous to Their culture. Whites have tried to get around this fact of their essential paganism by pictorially claiming biblical characters, especially Jesus and God were/are White. The same is true for Their language (originally Sanskrit) and numbering system (Arabic). Whites have made these things part of Their culture precisely because they fill a hole that was there to begin with. White cultural appropriation continues in the absence of Their inability to deepen Their own culture so that ethnic minorities now provide the best US entertainment. That Whites flock to consume such material proves the lack in Themselves. When Whites mimic such music, we end up with Elvis Presley, Slim Shady and The Rolling Stones – literally pale imitations of their antecedents. This shows where Whites are lacking in crucial areas that They have to copy others to make up for the dearth. The only new White musical form was punk rock – that expresses nothing more than White anger at a culture that offers Them little more than the opportunity to copy others rather than articulate something authentically White.
White authenticity is essentially racism – like the KKK – and there is no doubting the depth of their race hatred and the sincerity of such groups in this regard. Whites would prefer to conceal this bedrock racism as much as possible; meaning that for Whites to be accepted as Whites they have to renounce their humanity (by becoming racist) in order to benefit from the resulting White privilege. This is not only to avoid being treated like Blacks – who are always shown to other groups as examples of what will happen if you do not conform to Whiteness – but also to create a culture of false unity. A false unity that is based not on shared values – Whites possess no deep-seated values – but on mutually agreed hate. If Whites hated no one, Their culture would collapse because then the hate filled cement that keeps it together would vanish. This counterfeit harmony also helps avoid being labelled as “Nigger Lovers” and of being treated as badly as Blacks are.
These serious White culture gaps are filled with a culture that lacks pride in itself because of the inherent fear of others built in. This is done just in case Their shallowness is seen; hence, the loud audio volume of Their culture because empty vessels make the most noise. The racist responses to your own blog reveal how loudly White racists proclaim Their self proclaimed ethical right to be racist while never once advancing a moral argument to sustain such a position. The fact that Whites see Themselves as “generic” (ie, to have transcended a Whiteness that was never used as a negative accusation against Them) proves that They are trying to be seen as a universal culture. A culture that everyone else should aspire to in order to avoid the nagging sense that Whites are essentially superficial. This explains why Whites spent so many centuries exporting a religion They did not believe in, to what we now call the Third World. And why They now try to spread the pseudo religion of democracy and feminism abroad when oligarchy and sexism are rife in their own countries. The fact that They must use violence in spreading Their culture means They know others will not willingly accept it.
Such inappropriate aggression is also based on the ultimate hope that if everyone else is made in Their own image, there would then be no-one around to criticise Them since then all criticism would be silenced. This is the ultimate goal of claiming Whites are better than others – concealing moral emptiness by trying to destroy those that point it out. The same was true of the Roman Empire that has given us little of any lasting value to admire except their military prowess. And yet that is the empire Whites model Themselves on not, for example, the more intellectual Phoenicians nor the more spiritual ancient Egyptians.
Another issue for White culture is that Whites are unwilling to share what little culture They possess. They are frightened that others will come to see Them as They truly are if They do. A culture unwilling to share resorts to boastfulness as a vain substitute for a pride that likes to share itself with others and become self valorising in the process. But since Whites have historically done much for which They are now guilt ridden and ashamed, They pretend Their culture is superior and that only equally superior people are allowed in. That is, only those who share the same guilt feelings They can empathise with. This is the quintessential sense of inferiority to Blacks that Whites feel since Whites know that Blacks do not feel guilty about racism. This, despite various White attempts to make Blacks feel such guilt by claiming, for example, that Blacks are as racist as Whites.
Whites see Their own political imperfections very clearly. Whites are not blind to Their own racism since when you point it out to Them, They become very angry that you have done so; proving that you have struck a raw (not a hidden) nerve. Whites hope others will not notice: They simply do not wish to be reminded of what They already know. After all, every man knows where his own shoes pinch. To get around this metaphysical problem, Whites preach substantive issues as if They were a fundamental part of Their culture: Capitalism, democracy & individuality, for example. But these are only practised when it suits Whites, so that each should realistically be prefixed with the word “White” when used – White Capitalism, White Democracy & White individuality.
Most talk about whether Whites have a culture avoid the points made here; leading to much confusion about what the question really means. Modern Whites do have a culture but it lacks roots (not having been around long) and a moral centre (being materialistic); explaining why social hypocrisy is so common in the West and all the other disproportionate ills it leads to. These are child molestation, pornography, divorce, adultery, motiveless murder, loveless sex, sexism, racism, classism, emotional repression, etc.
The other issue with White culture is its blandness: Country & western and folk music are a joke. Actually talking to a White gives one the strong sense that one is talking to the persona and not the character and that one is learning about Them rather than from Them. Their often lack of overt body language and speech modulations only strengthens this impression. Cultural discourse is limited to what benefits Whites. When others claim equal treatment from Whites, They become hysterically angry and pretend equality has always existed and that Blacks are merely “playing the race card” to get special privileges not open to Whites.
Although many alien elements are now firmly part of White culture, they never lost their alienness (it is still possible to trace their origins) because they could never become deeply rooted in a culture that, itself, lacks deep roots.
To Frank Talker:
Their language (originally Sanskrit)
Presumably you meant written language. The Latin alphabet is derived from the a Greek alphabet which is partially derived from a Phoenician trade language which influenced multiple alphabets. So it is not from Sanskrit. And when you say “Their language” you would also mean my language since you are writing in English.
As for culture you totally ignored Fine Art (dominated by the West for over a hundred years..) Cinema (Ditto..) Television (Ditto..) Ballet, Opera, Classical music and huge body of literature and philosophy that have been published in the last 500 years. A good chunk of the sports that are played today have so called white origins some exceptions would be basketball (possible Mesoamerican origins although not in it’s current form..)
A collection of authors in 1999 who write in Arabic lamented that there were more novels published in one country Ireland (with just over 4 million people) in the last decade than in all Arabic speaking countries. (about 280 million people)
White attempts to destroy other cultures are really fits of jealous rage when confronted with something that is built upon much firmer rocks and is therefore destined to be longer lasting.
Then you haven’t read what most white conquerors wrote.. they clearly thought that their culture was superior and were trying in their minds to “civilize” what they felt were inferior cultures. I do not agree with that attitude but reading the journals of explorers hardly gives one idea that they thought they were encountering a superior longer lasting culture. (An exception would be Alexander the Great of Greece conquering Persian..Alexander clearly thought the Persians had a superior if not decadent culture..) Injecting your opinion into an argument doesn’t make it so.
Their often lack of overt body language and speech modulations only strengthens this impression.
Are you a comedian..? Have you even been to Japan or China…? Or do you think those countries were they are less likely to express physical emotion than your average white European or American lack a culture..?
Another issue for White culture is that Whites are unwilling to share what little culture They possess.
Another joke, American TV and Cinema are pervasive. How is it white folks are somehow not sharing a culture with non-white folks. I know a number of non-white folks who believe (not necessarily intentionally) are shoving white culture down their throats. (That to some degree is what Abagond discusses in this blog if you care to check…)
By the way you might want to look up who invented most parts of the computer and the concept of the internet so you could project your opinion. Inventions (predominantly) by whites have decidedly changed the transmission and distribution of culture.
There is most definitely a white culture, and Abagond hits the nail on the head by noting that white Americans perceive themselves as “standard” or “normal” and everyone else has “cultural differences.” In places like Hawaii where white Americans are the minority, the whites are very conscious of being just another ethnicity, and they’re quite comfortable with it. On the mainland, white Americans are just too insulated to know that they have a culture, and since their culture is largely consumer culture, they don’t really have something distinctive to identify with that is easy to differentiate from American exports abroad that soon become “generic”. Food-wise, Americans have their own culture. If you go to certain sports pubs, brunch places, most places with some Anglo origins, then the customers there will be extremely skewed toward being white. So, obviously, these kinds of places are distinctive to their culture. Also, if you see the people coming back from Yankee games on the subway in New York, it is really striking how they look really different from the usual mix of people on the subway — it’s weird to see a large number of all white people who look like they came from the suburbs. Also, architecturally, if you go to neighborhoods that are heavily white — like in diverse California, the neighborhoods sort themselves out ethnically — the rich, old white places always feel very clean and sterile and uniform, whereas the hipster young white places will be grungey (maybe in rebellion against the rich white places), and the blue collar white places have mostly unhealthy, processed food to eat in desolate strip malls. Maybe what gives Anglo white culture the having-no-culture mentality is that the class-based cultural origins from England were feudal in which the peasantry really were poor and had little chance for cultural development, whereas in, say, Latin America, Africa, and Asia, there was no class-based society so even the poorest people have their own handicrafts, dances, and fairly well-developed cuisine. But one also has to distinguish popular culture from high culture: Western classical music and art from Europe are rich cultural traditions that are ever developing. But these are also fine art that perhaps transcends cultural boundaries, and with globalization and the mixing of intellectuals from the various continents, the various intellectual and cultural traditions have been mixing and melding in new expressive forms. So, when we are talking about what distinguishes white American culture, we are really talking primarily about pop culture.
Kirv said:
“Also, if you see the people coming back from Yankee games on the subway in New York, it is really striking how they look really different from the usual mix of people on the subway — it’s weird to see a large number of all white people who look like they came from the suburbs.”
I noticed that too.
the blue collar white places have mostly unhealthy, processed food to eat in desolate strip malls.
I hate strip malls with a passion.
Folks, that’s called ethnocentrism and everybody has it to one degree or another. Faced with Brazilians, American blacks consider themselves “standard and normal”. Brazilians are either highly exotic or backwards.
This may indeed be a white trait, but it is also avery American one.
Kirv:
But one also has to distinguish popular culture from high culture…So, when we are talking about what distinguishes white American culture, we are really talking primarily about pop culture.
************
I think that’s what “some” white (american) people mean when they say they don’t have “culture”. There is plenty of pop – culture but no one notices it because it’s normalized and exported around the world but The supposed absence of uber-bourgeoisie “high culture” with the “special, sacred, mystical” dances, etc.
One of few surprising things I’ve learned here is that rock is considered “white” music. I never, never thought about it that way. And no, I don’t mean in “neutral” white gaze sort of way (“I don’t think of it as white, I think it’s just normal”). With so many black (and non-black) musicians and fans out there, and with the whole history or rock n roll, I never thought it might be considered a white thing.
Then again, maybe my circle of (Internet) friends isn’t the best one to describe “average American group” of people.
I don’t see Jim Morrison as the best example of “white American culture”, but he’ll do.
I haven’t read all the other comments, so I may be repeating here. I can see both sides, but as a whitey, I have to disagree a little with your assessment – my feelings are in line with Shelley. *I* do not have a culture, unless I *choose* to fall in line with American society – I don’t celebrate “Christmas” like other white people might, I don’t support monolingualism, etc. In fact, looking at the detriment people with my skin color have caused other races forces me into further seclusion, because I’m ashamed to be a part of the white group. Further, I disagree with so much of mainstream American “culture.” I feel like it’s as racially-charged to lump all white people into one culture (American) as it is to lump every black person in North America into “black culture.” So in that sense, maybe Shelley’s off too – unless she’s talking about small, distinct groups.
“White” culture is also perceived to be made of ignorance, and I can agree with that. But there are lots of white people out there trying to fight what mainstream society has been telling us for 200 years and bridge barriers. I know white people have a lot to make up for, but there are those of us who don’t feel apart of American society (and, therefore, according to some comments here, white culture).
Our predecessors have screwed over every other race to the point that many of them don’t want to connect with us, and a lot of us hate being around ignorant white people who don’t know shit from shit. So in that sense, yeah, we feel pretty disconnected.
Why do you call yourself a “whitey”? Is it an ethnic slur or what? What does it mean?
Many white folks can be heard saying, “We don’t have culture. They have culture.”
It seems to me that people who say this don’t have the slightest clue as to what “culture” is.
Lack of a culture? They have one of the most powerful cultures in history, like the Romans, the Persians and the Chinese, one that threatens other cultures.
Likewise people who say this.
Both groups seem to believe that “culture” is some ineffable essence, passed down in the blood, which is somehow congruent with race and/or nationality.
Let’s get this straight, folks: first of all no one “has” a culture. Cultures, like languages, are not physcial objects but symbolic constructs. Either you learn to participate in them or you don’t. You do not “have” a culture nor can anyone “steal” your culture, just like speaking English doesn’t mean you “have” English and neither does a new English speaker steal anything from you, an old English speaker.
With that in mind, so-called “white” people participate in many different cultures. There is no one “white” culture just like there is no one “English” langauge.
You’d think people would look up the scientific definition of “culture” before commenting on it, neh?
It seems to me that people who say this don’t have the slightest clue as to what “culture” is.
And anthropologists do?
Hell, at least we know what it ISN’T.
I agree with this post. There is a white American culture but it’s so ubiquitous and dominant that it’s difficult to recognize or articulate. That’s why some white Americans think they don’t have a culture and often identify themselves with what they consider their most distinctive ancestry (Irish or Italian in many cases).
“There is a white American culture but it’s so ubiquitous and dominant that it’s difficult to recognize or articulate.”
Not only that but it it’s so vast it fails to serve the basic function of culture. Facilitating interaction. We all share the same culture yet still have nothing in common with one another. That’s why we feel culture-less even though we are not.
@ jas0n
Ooh…good one.
There’s nothing empowering about it. It does not help with defining identity.
@ Ank,
do you mean collective identity? then yes I agree. Whites don’t feel connected to one another by any sense of identity.
For example I can’t assume that the white guy next to me on the bus has anything in common with me. he might listen to different music, have a different diet, dress differently, does he like sports? which ones? what slang does he use if any? politics? education? class background? etc.
White culture is like a buffet with a million options. It reminds me of my high school cafeteria. I imagine that the black students sitting at their group of tables would look around and just see a bunch of white people. Meanwhile we would look at each other and see. The jocks, the nerds, the preps, the punks, the hippies, etc. All having no more in common with each other than with the black students.
“There is no forest, just trees….”
jas0n,
“do you mean collective identity? then yes I agree…we look at each other and see the jocks, the nerds, the preps, the punks, the hippies, etc. All having no more in common with each other than with the black students.”
Isn’t this a good thing?
This is part of white privilege: not having to be defined by your perceived race. You can speak and act for yourself, rather than being a symbol for all people that look remotely similar to you.
And yet most whites do feel connected to each other by perceived race; this is proven by their reactions to any and all comments about white people, even if they are specifically excluded.
“Isn’t this a good thing?
This is part of white privilege: not having to be defined by your perceived race. You can speak and act for yourself, rather than being a symbol for all people that look remotely similar to you. ”
Sure, it’s great to be seen as an individual I suppose. But is there really such a thing? Isn’t that a western idea in itself? We all want to be individuals yet we need commonalities to form connections. Like goths who call themselves non-conformists yet they all dress exactly the same.
@abagond
I’m not saying we don’t have a culture. We do. I’m just saying our culture is useless because it’s to vast. It has so many different meanings it’s meaningless.
Anyone familiar with the story of the tower of Bable from The Bible? It’s like that. We speak so many languages (figuratively) we can’t understand one another.
jas0n,
“Sure, it’s great to be seen as an individual I suppose. But is there really such a thing?”
Yes, why not?
“We all want to be individuals yet we need commonalities to form connections.”
Having a few, random commonalities doesn’t negate individuality, does it?
“And yet most whites do feel connected to each other by perceived race; this is proven by their reactions to any and all comments about white people, even if they are specifically excluded.”
yeah, but our race only exists to us in the presence of non- whites. Unless we try to make it matter.
jas0n,
“I’m not saying we don’t have a culture. We do. I’m just saying our culture is useless because it’s to vast. It has so many different meanings…”
I hear some whites say this, and it seems self-congratulating. So, other people are just a monolith with one culture? And only whites have so many different cultures? I seriously have heard whites say that there is one black culture, with many “branches”, while claiming whites have a plethora of cultures that can’t be given a label. Those were “WTF?” moments, to the max. Check your privilege… it seeps out in the most seemingly innocuous statements.
“I hear some whites say this, and it seems self-congratulating.”
LOL. yay we did it!
“So, other people are just a monolith with one culture?”
No, American non-white’s are no more or less individuals than white people. But they do have less expansive cultures.
jas0n,
“No, American non-white’s are no more or less individuals than white people. But they do have less expansive cultures.”
How so?
*Lol, this is exactly how the last culture conversation I had started out*
Ha! The most loaded question ever. “Tell me about my culture white person”
First of all, there seems to be a basic misunderstanding of the word “culture” going on here.
“Culture” does not mean an identity or an ethnicity. Nor is identity necessarily empowering. Neither is individuality for that matter.
Secondly, people do not “have” cultures: they practice them. Cultures are like languages. They are not objects which can be stolen, appropriated or alienated. They can be practiced or not. One can encourage or discourage their practice. Typically, the world over, when one tries to discourage a cultural practice by a given people, this ENCOURAGES the formation of ethnicity and the recreation of culture.
Third, cultures are not thousands or hundreds of years old: they are recreated every single day, always with new things coming in and old things dropping by the wayside. They are thus a bit like living organisms.
To thus talk about “white culture” or “black culture” presumes a whole series of things that are just not true. I would encourage people, whenever they feel the need to use the word “culture”, tyo substitute “language” and see if it still makes sense.
Is there white and black English? Not really. There are white and black dialects of English, many on both sides of the colour line. And plenty of black people know how to speak white dialects and vice versa.
Thus with culture. It’s plural, amorphous, non-binding. It has no strict congruencies to ethnicity, nation, ort race, although there are national, ethnic and racial patterns to it. Culture divides as much as it connects, separates as much as it joins.
And one can manifestly have pluralist cultures, which is what “U.S. culture” and most of what Jason would probably call “black” or “white” cultures are.
jas0n,
Ha! The most loaded question ever. “Tell me about my culture white person”
What?
I’d be interested to know, really.
Above it seemed like you were implying that blacks don’t have their own jocks, nerds, hippies, etc. I’ve never heard anyone, white or otherwise, imply such. The black nerds who comment here would not be impressed by that suggestion!
‘And one can manifestly have pluralist cultures, which is what “U.S. culture” and most of what Jason would probably call “black” or “white” cultures are.’
I do think U.S. culture is a conglomeration of many different cultures, but many people I’ve met think U.S./American culture = white culture.
“Above it seemed like you were implying that blacks don’t have their own jocks, nerds, hippies, etc. ”
Not at all. I know better.
But there is still a collective identity. Black people identify as black. Think of themselves as black. Recognize one another as black. (obviously among other things)
Whites do not do this. So we have jocks, nerds ect. JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. But without an overarching collective identity that binds us. Simply because we are the dominant majority.
Being white doesn’t mean anything to white people. We are seen as a group by others but do not see ourselves as a group. Even though we are.
Natasha,
I do think U.S. culture is a conglomeration of many different cultures, but many people I’ve met think U.S./American culture = white culture.
Very true. Things like hot dogs, fast food, etc., I think of as textbook American. I would call something like Nascar a part of white culture, even though I know lots of White people don’t participate in it.
Jas0n,
Whether you acknowledge it (collective identity) out loud or not doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. As Natasha said, White people show through their actions all the time that they consider themselves “white-aligned”. Just because they don’t say it out loud doesn’t make it any less obvious.
jas0n,
“Black people identify as black. Think of themselves as black. Recognize one another as black. (obviously among other things)”
Really?
I’m know some, possibly many do. But some blacks are raised “color blind” or otherwise not taught to place any particular emphasis on perceived race. These people are not rare at all, actually. I am one of them. Abagond was one of them. So you’re stretching things here. Just a bit.
“We are seen as a group by others but do not see ourselves as a group.”
Again, I disagree. To the extent that most won’t tend to think of themselves as a part of a united entity involving race, unless they are around others who are perceived to be of other races. I doubt this is unique to whites, since most people of a certain ethnicity live amongst others of their same ethnicity.
Anyway, I was more interested in these comments of yours:
“I’m just saying our culture is useless because it’s to vast. It has so many different meanings”
“No, American non-white’s are no more or less individuals than white people. But they do have less expansive cultures.”
Jasmin,
“Whether you acknowledge it (collective identity) out loud or not doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. As Natasha said, White people show through their actions all the time that they consider themselves “white-aligned”. Just because they don’t say it out loud doesn’t make it any less obvious.”
I understand what jas0n is saying. And I agree, to a point. Most white people aren’t thinking “I’m white, thus…” But neither are most black people thinking “I’m black, thus…”. Most blacks I know are not racially conscious to that point, save a few self-proclaimed black nationalists and HBCU grads.
One thing I’ve noticed is that whites think that race is VERY important to blacks. They think blacks are always discussing race, always hyperfocused on it, that blacks automatically dislike them because they are white, etc. I’m guessing they get that idea from media like TV and internet, where racial issues are given more of an emphasis. Of course race is probably a lot more important to the average black American than it is to the average white American. But it is not some huge, overbearing idea that must color every thought and action they have.
“Whether you acknowledge it (collective identity) out loud or not doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.”
OK. but what good is collective identity or shared culture or any of it if you don’t recognize or acknowledge it. If you don’t say “this is us, this is what we’re about” If you don’t feel like you have anything of significance in common with other members of your “collective” Than what is it? Where is it?
@ natasha
I don’t know maybe black American culture is just as expansive a white American culture. Maybe it’s just my perspective as a white person that makes it seem like whites have more cultural choices labeled as white stuff.
jas0n,
“I don’t know maybe black American culture is just as expansive a white American culture. Maybe it’s just my perspective as a white person that makes it seem like whites have more cultural choices labeled as white stuff.”
Probably. I’m not comfortable calling too many things particularly “white”, “black”, etc.
So, what do you label “white stuff”?
I’m curious to know, seeing as so many things I do seem to be labeled “white” by whites. A white friend commented that most of my choice baby names sounded like “white names”. When most of them don’t have W. European origins… Stop trying to claim everything, sheesh!
Well it seems like there are things that are almost exclusively white, like Nascar. Then there’s an ever expanding middle territory. Then things that are almost exclusively black, like naming your child Lebron.
I seriously have heard whites say that there is one black culture, with many “branches”, while claiming whites have a plethora of cultures that can’t be given a label.
I get hung up on this one a lot. I think a part of it is because there was far less influx of immigrants into the Black population for the last 150 years until just recently while white immigrants poured in. Together with enforced social segregation etc and you wind up with a population that is arguably more homogeneous in terms of shared history, origins, dialect than white americans as a whole. So Black feels like a more specific label, along the lines of WASP or Jew, something that refers not just to race, but ethnicity too. That doesn’t mean whites don’t have specific shared culture – they share culture related to how they look and how that gets them treated, which is huge.
I intended Jew to mean an ethnicity of white race in America, in case that wasn’t clear.
jas0n,
“Well it seems like there are things that are almost exclusively white, like Nascar.”
I’ve heard that one before.
Anything else? You remarked that white culture is more vast expansive than other cultures, so surely there is more than this.
“Then there’s an ever expanding middle territory.”
What’s this?
“Then things that are almost exclusively black, like naming your child Lebron.”
I was thinking I heard of a French guy with a similar name, and indeed, when Googled, that names comes up as French in origin. So there’s potentially hundreds+ other Lebrons who aren’t black.
I also can’t get with the thinking that anything which some blacks do = black culture. Most blacks I know have very ordinary, humdrum names like David, James, Ashley, or Tiffany.
Just to put this in practice, I chose some random black public figures, without thinking about it.
Here are their names:
Jeremiah (Wright)
Kelly (Rowland)
Aisha (Tyler)
Maxwell (Rivera)
Willow (Smith)
I don’t know, just given these first names… I would have a hard time guessing the person’s perceived race, except Aisha.
Right, because Aisha would obviously be Arab
^Lol!
I know, it can be. I’ve know some non-black Aishas (not necessarily spelled that way). Yet most people would view it as a “black” name. I’m currently searching for baby names and I remember it showing up on one list as a common black American female name.
—
“I think a part of it is because there was far less influx of immigrants into the Black population for the last 150 years until just recently while white immigrants poured in… So Black feels like a more specific label, along the lines of WASP or Jew, something that refers not just to race, but ethnicity too.”
Interesting. I can see it from this vantage point. Thanks for pointing this out, since no one else has. It makes sense.
So, I guess people are excluding any blacks who aren’t multi-generational. But then, what about the various groups of multi-generational black Americans? Southern (Southeast) blacks are so very different from Northern (Northeast) blacks, in my experience; I would say that is a major division that should be taken into account. My black girlfriends from Manhattan relate much more to their white peers in NYC than to my black friends from South Carolina. I’ve never lived on the West coast for an extended period, but I imagine the same would apply, given those I know from that area.
I know not one but two (possibly more) white Aishas! (The spelling is different, but it’s the same name).
I would guess the person as black (and female) primarily for the spelling. But maybe I’ll amend this comment:
“I don’t know, just given these first names… I would have a hard time guessing the person’s perceived race, except Aisha.”
to:
“I don’t know, just given these first names… I would have a hard time guessing the person’s perceived race.”
Frank Talker – I salute you. Very succinct post/comment…
* applauds *
I suppose you can’t really get into a discussion about culture because in the end your just stereotyping. I don’t know if the 2 can be separated even though it seems like they should be.
But then, what about the various groups of multi-generational black Americans?
I think we naturally think of groups like a heirarchy or taxonomic tree, when it’s really more like a venn diagram. A multidimensional venn diagram with a gazillion circles and very fuzzy edges
A lot of what Abagond seems to be talking about in the original post is whether the top of the taxonomic tree is American, with white and black as the next level down, or whether the top of the tree is black people and white people, with nationality as the second level. Thus the endless debate about silly things like whether one should say “Muslim American” or “American Muslim” for example. (I think Thad’s last comment was very good in this regard, and it’s unfortunate that he’s been banned.)
Maybe white people not seeing themselves as having “culture” shows a dissatisfaction with our own. White particularly American culture is so pervasive in the world that it has created an atmosphere of boring monotony and conformity. Flip the roles and you’d see the same sentiments among Blacks, Asians, or Hispanics. This longing for “culture” and denial of having one already by Whites is an expression of the alienation that is felt by dominant groups. Oppression hurts everyone, not just the oppressed.
Culture is an ambiguous term, and White Americans have about as much culture as Black Americans do, but it depends entirely on perspective. Class, region, and foreign ties are more clearly defined and tend to contradict the monolithic implications of racial cultures in the U.S.