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Black women that white men like

White American men seem to go for certain kinds of black women and not for others. The same is true for black men and white women, but that is another post.

I have not done any grand survey nor am I setting forth any iron rules – I know all white men are not alike. These are  just some notes and observations of what I have noticed in New York.

If any black women or white men want to add their own general observations that would be great. If I have it all wrong, please tell me. I have some examples at the end. You can weigh in on them.

If you ask white men to name a beautiful black woman, most will name someone who is light-skinned, like Beyonce or Halle Berry. So you would think that among black women they would mainly go after light-skinned women. But the strange thing is they do not.

And yet they do prize whiteness in women, even in black women, but the whiteness they want is not as simple as skin colour. It is more in the general shape of her body – thin, maybe with large breasts, but not too big of a bottom. The features of her face can be black, but not too black. Hair, surprisingly, does not seem to matter that much. So it is not uncommon to see a white man with a dark-skinned black woman with natural hair.

Both black men and white men in America are affected by white ideas of female beauty, but they apply them to black women differently:

Black men apply it to skin colour (light) and hair (long and straight), but not so much to the shape of the body (still thick, though that seems to be changing).

White men are almost the opposite of that: they do not care so much about skin colour or hair – those who do apparently stick to white women – but they do care about the shape of the body and the features of the face.

Some examples:

Many white men would date these women: Iman, Jourdan Dunn, Gabrielle Union, Sanaa Lathan, Garcelle Beauvais, Lela Rochon, YaYa Da Costa, Angela Bassett, Kerry Washington, Aisha Tyler, any young black woman in an ad, in Playboy, any black weather girl or supermodel.

lela03.jpg

Most of these women have what I call a cutsie-pie face, like Gabrielle and Garcelle.

Way fewer white men would date these: Phylicia Rashad, Toccara Jones, Bria Myles, Estelle, Brandy Norwood, Adriana Bombom, Elise Neal, Latavia Roberson, Jill Marie Jones, Sade, Omotola, Liris Crosse, Angell Conwell, Heather Headley.

toccara029.jpgadrian07.jpgelise.jpgliris177.jpgangellconwell.jpg

By dating I do not mean sex. I mean someone they would seriously show to their mother as their girlfriend.

Heather Headley and Sade, by the way, are married to white men. But, like I said, not all white men are alike.

See also:

2,112 Responses

  1. That’s funny – most people say that white men only date light-skinned women, but I’ve found that to be not entirely true (as you describe). I think white men might be a little intimidated by “blackness” in the cultural sense, and perhaps this is the reason why they veer away from the kinds of women you listed second.


  2. on Wed 28 May 2008 at 16:44:52 Felicity Graham

    It really depends on the white man, where he comes from, how exposed to black culture, he is. I’m from the UK and I saw a blond tall man, with a plumb black woman, they are married and they have two sons. It really depends on the man.


  3. I am glad you mentioned the fact that many white men seem to go for black women with natural hair and dark skin as I have noticed this too. When I have natural hair I get more attention from white men.
    I think they stay away from sterotypically black women. I don’t think most white men don’t like black women as men like women period. I have even had Asian men try to “holla” at me.

    I’ve heard and read that many white men are intimadated by black women.
    I’ve also seen white men with heaver/thick and a few times fat black women.


  4. Agabond:

    I’m a white American male. A university and post-graduate educated professional. I regularly read and enjoy your blog. I agree with some of what you say and disagree with some.

    I have been married to a BW for 13 years and, before my marriage, had a reasonable number of relationships with other BW. I know many other WM attracted to and/or married to BW. I think that your tendency to over-generalize racial issues, and especially racial issues having to do with notions of black female beauty, clouds your analysis on the issue of WM attracted to BW. A couple of brief points:

    1. WM cannot enter into serious relationships with BW unless we have first learned to see black people as individuals. Once this happens, racial stereotypes and preconceptions tend to diminish or disappear.

    2. Men tend to be attracted first by physical beauty. WM in relationships with BW have come to see BW as beautiful. For this reason, we appreciate the beauty of Nia Long, Jill Marie Jones and/or Serena Williams as much or more than that of Halle Berry or other slender, light-skinned BW. In fact, if there is any generalization I have seen among WM who are attracted to BW with respect to physical attributes, it is that white guys tend to prefer darker women over lighter ones. And fuller lips over less full lips. We also love full asses, by the way. I have personally experienced and enjoyed many shades, from obsidian to café au lait, and many shapes, from Buffy the Body to Venus Williams.

    3. In any relationship, educational level is probably one of the more significant determinative factors in choosing a long-term mate or partner. WM/BW relationships are no different. Increased minority collegiate enrollment has been largely female. WM on college campuses tend to be more open minded and creative in their relationship choices, and on campus they are encountering smart, attractive, open-minded BW. Thus, the biggest increase in WM/BW relationships in the past decade or two has been predominantly among college-educated individuals. Some within the black community will say that the mannerisms of an educated BW are somehow more “white” compared to stereotypical urban poor BW mannerisms. I personally don’t subscribe to this dialectic, but even if you do agree with it, the real distinction in WM/BW relationships is typically educational level, not the “whiteness” of her demeanor. By the way, both my wife and I can easily code-switch between the dialect of our youth (I was raised in a remote, rural area with a strong regional dialect) and our standard English.


  5. This is Sara Furguson former dutchess of York’s daughter. I think you will like what you see and this is the type of body that most yt men will not find attractive.


  6. Heather headley is in your white men will not date list but I think her boyfriend or husband is white. I guess what you are saying is that white men do not care about skin color or hair texture but they care about afro facial features. While I am sure this is somewhat true there are a lot of exceptions. I have seen white men with women who do not have small button noses or thin lips. I am one of these women and have had white men who thought I was attractive.


  7. As noted in the post, Heather Headley’s husband is white. Of course there will be white men who will date Heather Headley or any of the women in the second list – it is just that there will be way more for the first list for the reasons given in the post.


  8. You will see white men with all sorts of black women. My point was that certain pairings are much more common than others. At least in New York you see more white men with black women who are thin or middle class than with those who are thick or working class. But I doubt it is just New York.

    Walk down the street: for every black woman you see imagine a white man with her. You will see that certain pairings seem more likely than others.


  9. Blanc2: Thanks for your long and interesting comment.

    I agree about the lips and, for the most part, education.

    My sister tells me that white men place way more value on a woman’s education, income and the sort of work she does. Is that true? I thought only women did that sort of thing, not men. It never occurred to me to consider those things in a woman. She said it is even in Jane Austen.


  10. Agabond:

    See my response to “levels of blackness,” above. Part of what informs a white guy’s selection of a mate will often be a judgment on that “valuist” scale described there. This goes, among other things, to body fat. To white America, excessive body fat is a signal of a lack of self restraint. Our culture has in recent decades taken that to an extreme, as our culture often tends to do. But Chic Noir is correct that the daughter of the Dutchess of York has a figure that would not be pleasing to most white men. Jennifer Hudson likewise.

    As to education, income and acheivement, yes, many white men consider these things when making marriage decisions, though we do not generally consider them otherwise. Part of our “valuist” system includes the notion that a marriage is in part an economic partnership. You want to try to form a partnership with somebody with whom you think you think will enhance your chances of finding economic success. For some men, this means finding a woman who will take care of 100% of things at home so that he is free to pursue a career. For other men, this means finding a woman who has a viable career of her own. In either case, it is an express consideration.

    As to educational level, for me personally it boiled down to marrying somebody that I would find an interesting engaging companion in my old age.


  11. There doesn’t appear to be a way to edit posts once submitted. I forgot to add a bit about “Afican” or ethnic facial features. WM attracted to BW like these features. Though “mainstream” white America probably recognizes more “European” features as more attractive generally, WM who date BW do not share this bias and in fact the opposite is often the case.


  12. It sucks that you cannot edit your own posts. That is why I never sweat anyone about their spelling or grammar or even for sounding stupid. As long as they are on topic.

    Thanks for confirming what my sister said.


  13. Blanc2: So you would not have the two lists like I do? Are you saying that when a white man is into black women, it is all the way?

    If you would still have two lists, I would be interested to know what changes you would make to what I have.


  14. Agabond:

    For most of the WM I know in serious or long-term relationships with BW, it is, as you say, “all the way.” However, at that point attraction becomes a matter of individual taste, as always. WM who only date WW do not all like the same look. Some prefer blondes/brunettes. Some prefer tall/short. Etc. Same with WM into BW.

    I agree with your posts about the types of BW that mainstream white America tends to find attractive. The breakdown there hinges on european-ish facial features and slender figures. However, in my experience among WM who have come to love BW, that same breakdown does not generally apply.


  15. I just found this blog and I have to say…. interesting and Im liking what I see :-)

    Physical attraction boils down to individual taste. White guy A may be into thick black women, and white guy B may be into thin black women, white guy C may be into Big black women and for white guy D, an average body build is just perfect. My bofriend who is white happens to fall into the white guy D category (sorry I made up categories lol)… Im only 5’2 and I weigh in around 130, but Im very athletic looking and sometimes people cant tell thats my weight.
    Attraction is also a TWO WAY THING…. black women have their own preferences. Black woman A may like a stocky build on white men, Black woman b may like the skinny skinny type (my friend falls under this category because she is skinny too), black woman C may like the bonecrusher looking white guys and black woman D may like the average/athletic looking white guy. I happen to fall under D. The same thing goes with skin tone/colour. We all ARENT attracted to the same thing. Some of my friends dont really get picky when it comes to things like that, but Im a really picky person and I prefer a guy who is tan, compared to pale…. again attraction is all about individual or personal preference.
    Id like to see more black women talk about what they find attractive… we shouldnt always subject ourselves to the scrutiny of the media/majority, because those same critics may be fugly as hell and may not meet our own standards of what we find attractive.


  16. I am one of those slim, chocolate model types who does not act particularly “black” and the white men hit on me all the time. In fact, I get hit on by more white men than black men. The black men usually go for the thicker, lighter types. So I just have to go with whoever will have me. They just tend to like me better.


  17. That fits what I have observed too.


  18. What!?

    White men would not go for Sade?

    I have always thought that Sade, with her features (long hair, light skin) would be what many white men would run after. Not to mention that she has/had a white mother, as opposed to a black mother.

    I have always thought that many white men want a “Black Barbie” as opposed to the average African-featured black American woman.

    Bit of a surprise to find that many white men (according to some of the posters) prefer black women who wear their hair in its natural state, have Africa features, etc.

    Does not surprise me that many white men want a thin/slender black women who is a little-less-‘phat’ in the back.

    Then again, America is a country that hates the beauty of full-figured women, at least in this day and age.

    I feel sorry for the likes of the late Sarah Vaughn, Dorothy Dandridge and Marilyn Monroe.

    They would be vilified and ignored for their feminine beauty in 2008 America.


  19. To me Sade is beautiful, like the moon. Maybe I am wrong, but I cannot remember ever hearing any white man talk about her like that. Maybe it is the bone structure of her face or something.


  20. I was curious and saw your blog … it is pretty … nonetheless I was a bit sadden by some of these comments

    ” In fact, if there is any generalization I have seen among WM who are attracted to BW with respect to physical attributes, it is that white guys tend to prefer darker women over lighter ones. And fuller lips over less full lips. We also love full asses, by the way. I have personally experienced and enjoyed many shades, from obsidian to café au lait, and many shapes, from Buffy the Body to Venus Williams. ”

    I do not understand this … one moment you say that there are no generalizations and the next moment you say there are … this is sad … My father is African and my mother is German … why do some people hate me because I’m mixed ? Why the stereotypes ? I noticed that it is not such a big deal in Europe as I saw many different couples there … everybody has their own tastes and preferences


  21. The stereotypes and so on are part of white self-image, at least in America: feel good about yourself by putting others down.


  22. I think this is a good topic and one that is not generally talked about. It is true from what I have seen WM who go for BW go for darker skin BW (there are always exceptions) but for the most part this is how it is. Also, the point made about education is important in reference to WM and BW, however, I do not see this trend with BM and WW–education mostly doesn’t seem to matter on both sides (again, there are always exceptions) but for the most part that’s generally how it is.
    I know this is a little off subject BUT
    I wish we (AA blk people) would not look at it as a “white” thing to speak proper English and more or less as just a normal way of speaking due in part to an education as blanc2 mentioned. It’s merely English, a language, which is something we’ve all learn, but not all embraced, from K-12th grade not something “white”. It’s a language and it shouldn’t be butchered especially since we are born in this country. It’s a shame when people not born in this land speak better English than someone who has grown up here. I just felt that needed to be said.
    Back on subject, as a slim, chocolate hued BW–I can witness to this. Many WM…some who I were attracted to as well…were attracted to me, though I never had the “courage”, so to speak, to actually go there with them. I think sometimes both of us lacked the courage though the attraction was defiantly there. I’m an open mined person, most of the people I’ve dated were outside of my culture/ethnic group and sometimes outside of my race all together. I try to always look at people as individual; otherwise I could have missed out on a lot of good experiences.
    What I absolutely loathe is to see a BM with a WW…maybe he is holding her close…has his arms wrapped around her waist…and when he sees a BW in the distance, drops the WW’s hand, slows his pace so that he is behind her, and completely tries to distance himself… as if he is ashamed of her. Then and only then without really knowing this man, am I ashamed of him for reacting that way and I feel sorry for the WW plainly seeing the hurt in her eyes as I pass by. WE all know what just happened. I would leave him if I were her, but I’m sure most of them that actually experience this probably are use to it–but no woman should be subjected to that kind of treatment. I CANNOT tell you how many times I have seen this happen. It’s horrible. It doesn’t always happen, but it’s happened more times than not.


  23. Also a little off subject:

    People all over the world speak proper English – in India, Nigeria, Singapore, Jamaica, etc. It is not a “white” thing.


  24. Abagond,
    I found your article very interesting and for the most part I agree with your observations.

    I can use myself and my experiences as an example:

    I am a carmel colored woman, 5’6, 130 lbs.with a small bust and small behind, but I’m very well-defined: not really flabby anywhere. For more than a decade, I wore my hair straight. During that time, I garnered my fair share of attention from black and hispanic men. Although, I can say I have probably been passed over by black men because I don’t have much “junk in my trunk.”

    About ten years ago, I decided to let my natural hair grow out (I have corkscrew curls). when I did that, I started being approached by as many white men as other races of men. So, I think it’s fair to say that if I white man is truly attracted to black women, he will appreciate her ethnic features. I am an equal opportunity dater, so my history includes what looks like the United Nations.

    My sister, on the other hand, is very dark, more curvy, and has more course hair. She has always been approached by men of all races.

    We are both college educated and were raised in integrated neighborhoods. So, we are comfortable moving in cultural circles that are different from our own. I think that has also had great bearing on our dating success.


  25. Thanks! Especially interesting was what you said about hair.


  26. I understand your article, but I disagree with many of the women you put on your white men won’t like list. I think Garcelle Beauvois-Nilon and Gabrielle Union’s features are as “Black” as most of the women you put on your no list, if not more. Bria Myles has some of the narrowest facial features I’ve seen on any woman, Black or White. I understand that her figure is what put her on that list. Likewise, Tocarra and Angel Conwell do too, but they “act too Black.” I think that many Black women would be surprised by what attracts White men to Black women. As a Black woman that favors more of the Kenya Moore/Maia Campbell flavor herself, I’ve never had a problem attracting all different types of men of every race!


  27. Garcelle and Gabrielle: I know for a fact that white men are attracted to them, even men who you would think would not go for black women (and mostly do not). Garcelle appeared in Playboy – a magazine whiter than Maine.

    They both have that cutsie-pie face that white men seem to go for. So does Vanessa Williams, Sanaa Lathan, Lela Rochon, Sharon Leal, Janet Jackson and Kerry Washington. Not a single woman on the no-list, not even Bria, has that sort of face.


  28. I disagree with your post completely. I am currently married to a white man and throughout my adult life have dated handsome,white and/or Latino men. I am deep brown, pretty to be sure and have a really, really big butt. I am a sistah in the traditional sense. I usually wear either braids or a short cropped hairstyle..occassionally going for a relaxer but rarely. I have been married for 5 years (happily) and prior to that lived with a man from Sweden for 3 years. I have a Master’s degree and teach. For me, the pretty face and smile usually get the man, intellect keeps them and the big butt doesn’t hurt. I’m fat now, before my baby I was thick. I think that people are attracted to my personality first and then the rest follows. Your article was interesting and had a cool perspective. I respectfully disagree from years of experience. I guess I’ve always wondered why the brothers didn’t hit on me more or try for more serious relationships with me? I no longer care but it was interesting for years.


  29. Thanks. At some point I will have to update my post with all the feedback I have been getting.


  30. Weird how you got the WM flavor in California. I’m a caramel hued African female who’s is a little curvacous and white dudes never hit on me. Black and hispanic men do. Whenever I see WM with BW, the women are either darker and curvy or darker and thinner. They have natural hair most of the time. However, I don’t think that’s the by-product black female for a white guy. I’m dating a white man and he likes me for me.


  31. sick. small minds discuss people.


  32. Just stumbled on ur site. Interesting read. For me BLANC2 said it all in his first post. I completely agree with him. The ability to see an indidvidual irrespective of colour is what really gets the ball rolling.


  33. Aba, nice post. But … thin blk women who says blk men don’t want them because of their body types so they turn to white men who likes it are boldface liars. And YES I truly believe that. If you’re going to date interacially do not bash your counterpart to make up excuses as to why you are dating outside of your race. Ppl make up excuses to cover up their inadequacy and it is not becoming. As a matter of fact, I am thin, and short (with my heels off I am my natural 5’1 height) and throughout my entire 19 yrs of living I have dated predominantly blk males and only one Latino (he was Puerto Rican.) In JHS they called me “skinny minnie” (not in a taunting way either .. It was all in love) in H.S. I gained some weight and graduated to “Slim” (all of my ex boyfriends as well as my current one has called or still calls me “Slim”) that doesn’t sound like blk males are repulsed by thin blk women and hates their guts and would never date them to me. That is bullshit. Perhaps it wasn’t your weight, but your attitude, or maybe… just maybe some weren’t physically attracted to your facial features. Don’t blame black men. And fact I get pursued by farrr more black men, than I do white and usually when white males do pursue me they are Italian and feels strongly that they have some “black in them.” Oh .. One last thing, when it comes to race & beauty I believe that black men are a lot more universal in their ideas of beauty than any other race of men. The avg. Black man concentrates more on beauty and less on race (and body type). In NYC it isn’t hard to find a black male/latina duo or blk male/whitew duo (sometimes blk male/asianw duo) while many, many white men are grounded in their ideas of what a woman’s body should look like (thin … bony if you will) and Asians another story all together. The blk man is the biggest threat to Western civilization. Done. :-)


  34. on Tue 16 Sep 2008 at 02:45:06 mynameismyname

    Well, Strangefruit, I actually agree w/ your previous comment. Black men, we do seem to have focus less on race and more on body, from my observations. White men do seem more ‘particular’ about the women they date or lust after. But then again, it’s best not to generalize people. As long as there are people who contradict a stereotype, then it’s not a rule.

    It’s funny, in my lifetime, as someone who’s lived all over the Northeast and Southeast, I can’t say that I’ve witnessed
    an abundance of interracial couples, which included a black partner. They defintely were a smaller minority. Don’t get wrong, I’ve seen black/non-black couples (and even have two or three within my family) but they were far outweighted by monoracial black couples. Hmm…

    For perspective, most IR couples/marriages
    in this country take place between whites and non-black minorities.

    For all the talk we do on this site about black beauty and the lack of appreciation for it in this country- which is VERY TRUE-I have to say that like Strangefruit, most of the black women I know think that they’re FINE! They are not lacking for confidence, whether they’re skinny or fat, ugly or cute, tall or short, etc. They just think they’re the shit. Perhaps, black women learn very quickly that if they wallow in the anti-black racism that deems them physically subordinate to white females, they’d go mad so for survival reasons and common sense, they learn to embrace themselves even tighter.

    Reverisbly, I rarely see white women, regardless of how they look, exude the same confidence.

    What do you make of all of ths, Aba and readers around the globe?


  35. Mynameis…
    I do agree with you about generalizations, though I make many of them myself (hypocrisy @ its finest haha).
    I’ll also agree that interracial couples are a minority, but the way some thin blk women talk on this site about dating white males because blk males are rejecting them you’d think otherwise. After all many, many blk women are thin. Most thick black women testify that they were thin at some point and gained weight as they got older and had children. My mom is a prime example of that. That means one can safely conclude that we (black women) have all dated white men at some points in our lives because blk males rejected our body types. Smh. Get real. That is NOT true. On his other post I saw thin blk females saying things like they were taunted mercilessly when they were younger because they were skinny and now they have to go through therapy (LOL) … I am sorry … I find that VERY hard to believe. As a matter of fact, I think that was an overexaggeration to the highest power. The black man IMO is just universal in what he thinks is beauty. When I first met my boyfriend I asked him what does he like in a woman and he said a nice smile, good figure (that can mean anything), REAL hair, and that was it. I have never met a blk guy whom when I asked what does he like in a woman said light skinned, thick, with long hair. To most blk males I’ve met skin complexion does not matter one way or another. Most just likes a “good” figure (an abstract word .. good can mean anything according to the person). And sure, black men likes long hair (Hair is an outgrowth of protein … long, thick hair is one sign of good health) but above all, I think most blk men just likes real hair (meaning it is far more important that the hair is real whether it is long or short). The color issue in the black community is far too exaggerated as well. I just think with the black man’s perceptions of beauty it is very easy for the blk woman to feel good about herself whether she is thin, thick, or fat. Light brwn. Med. Brown. Or dark brown. Long hair, short hair, or even weave hair. Tall. Medium. Or short. It is white males that place pressure on white females to look a certain way, which is why anorexia, bulemia, bleached blonde hair, and breast augmentation plagues young white women. How could they truly feel good inside to the point where it exudes to the public when they’re leaders (their men) has such strict and acute expectations of their outside appearance? Not everyone is born with double D’s on a stick and platinum blonde hair … most certainly not the avg. White woman. Most white men (as depicted in the media) does not understand that and if their women aren’t born with it as opposed to wanting them to stick with the real they’d rather them buy the fake. Blk males however, understands that not every blk female is light skinned with a slim waist and big booty … they tend to just appreciate a good looking woman for what she is no matter her color or figure. That is it. It is what it is…


  36. I would think thin black women would have far more luck with black men than white men. White men may like thin women more, but most are unwilling to marry a black woman – because they do not want black children. But that is a whole other post:

    http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/06/25/why-so-few-white-men-marry-black-women/

    I agree that black men are far less racist in their ideas of beauty than white men. But that may not be to their credit: if you naturally like black women and live in America you will find yourself being told over and over again that something else is more beautiful. So it is not too hard to see the beauty in both. White men do not have that advantage. If 95% of the actresses in Hollywood were black, they would have a more balanced idea of beauty too.

    And, yes, it is strange that even though white women are held up as the height of beauty in America, white women are far more insecure about their looks. In general. Fat white women just seem to give up altogether while many fat black women do not. That is how it seems.


  37. Strangefruit…
    I would say that I disagree with you on the color issue in the Black community. As a person who has literrally went from light to brown skin after tanning and simply just listening to many guys…it is still an issue. Let me provide some examples..and by the way these buddies of mine are from all different cultures and background (Jamaican, Nigerian, Trinidadian,etc…and yes American). Just dissappointing how the ignorance is all over the Black Diaspora.
    Example 1: My ex Trini Boyfriend came back after spending 1 month in his country for Christmas. When he returned he gave me a compliment “your skin is lighter…but he used the term ‘fair'” I gave him a look and he was just like “that is a good thing”. I couldn’t believe he said that!
    Example 2: My friends boyfriend said he would only sleep with Gabrielle Union but nothing else because she is dark skinned..and he said it in a way that was increased the degradation of this horrible statement.
    Example 3: Back in high school, I remember one of my good friends putting down(actually about her skin) a girl who was dark skinned….I guess he forgot he used to date her! Furthermore, this girl was really beautiful and beautiful by anyone’s standards too…I guess that was the only aspect about her that could be use to attack her.
    Example 4: At HU,I had a buddy who worked in the post office. He was an older black man (maybe late 30s). After spending a few summer days in the hot sun of the District…I stopped by to drop some mail off. I hit the corner and he said “Dang you got black” with his face all twisted up like that was the worst thing ever. God forbid I get darker…some Black people really do believe that sunscreen lotion keeps you from getting darker. Maybe it is just me, but from my observations, black folks do NOT want to get darker. If it wasn’t such an issue, would some people go to such lengths to shield themselves from the sun? Some girls even go as far as bleaching creams…sounds similar to things like anorexia to me. On both sides of the coin, women feel the need to change features about themselves that apparently will make them fit better into society. Something is driving women,both black and white, to got to such drastic measures.

    I could really go on and on and on. I agree that black have an overall appreciation for women, but color can occasionally sneak up again.


  38. on Wed 1 Oct 2008 at 22:11:57 mynameismyname

    Qselby,

    I don’t think Strangefruit was saying that color biases/coding wasn’t an issue, she was just saying that FROM HER EXPERIENCES, she feels that the notion of it being a SEVERE issue for black folks is greatly overstated.

    Oh, many people of color have deep issues with their racial appearance. That’s just a nasty after-effect of white supremacy and European colonization.

    It’s just that not all black people share the same experiences with race. There’s many black women, no matter how light or dark their skin, who’ve never had their skin color become a serious issue for them either way. While obviously there’s other who’ve had it become much more political.

    Different strokes for different folks. It’s all a matter of location and sophistication.

    P.S.: Intrestingly enough, I know a lot of black women who just love to use spray tans and bronzers. They do it to even themselves out and get a sexy glow. That’s what many have told me at least.


  39. on Thu 2 Oct 2008 at 01:40:15 mynameismyname

    Qselby,

    A man in his late 30s is an “older” man? LOL. You must be wild young. Hell, a 25-year-old must be elderly to you, huh? :-)

    Just funnin’.


  40. Qselby, mynameis articulated much of what I was going to say. I know it is a problem … within every non-white race. However, I do believe that the “color-struck” issue is exaggerated. Most of the black people I know aren’t fair skinned. I’m not either. Your point is proven however by your personal experiences, but I can honestly say no one has ever said anything good or bad about my skin tone. It just is what it is. I’ve been referred to as the “brown skinned girl” and as far as my complexion goes that is the most I’ve heard in reference to it. Brown skin, IMO is dark skin. Subjective though. One thing I do get often from blacks and I feel it is because I’m black is questions like “is that your real hair?” or “is that all yours?” I’ve had one guy I dated ask me if he could ask me a personal question and when I said “it depends” he asked me if my hair was real. I get that so often I’m not offended by it anymore. And I am about 99.9% sure that it is because I am obviously black. I’d say that is more of an issue in the blk community than skin color. I get q’s like that everywhere I go. As a dark female when I go to places I am not bombarded with questions about my skin complexion, but about my hair smh. As far as ppl putting others down for their complexion, in H.S. And even now in college the guys would refer to a fair skinned female as “whitey” and equally so a very dark skinned girl as “darky.” Its normal. He dated her, he obviously knew what color she was and didn’t have a problem with it. Sounds like he was a little bitter if anything and if it were not her skin complexion it would be something else. I haven’t met any blacks who wore sun screen lotion on the beach or went to great lengths to stay out of the summer’s sun to avoid getting darker. Here in P.A. During my summer course @ college my girls and I went to a local pool regularly and I actually tanned in the sun to even out my complexion as I am darker in some places and lighter in others. My friends range in tones and they surely aren’t afraid of the sun as you depict. I’ve never had anyone look @ me and say “dang you got black” with their faces all twisted up. None of my blk male friends ever told me they’d never do anything but “sleep” with a dark skinned female. Yeah, you’re right … maybe it is just you. Or its just the “ignorant” company you keep…


  41. Colourism is clearly stil an issue – the number of comments on this blog about it shows that. But people do have vastly different experiences in regard to it.


  42. on Fri 10 Oct 2008 at 15:45:04 Angela Jackson

    All WM are not the same. The ones I date like my braids and my larger bottom. But mostly they tell me they like my mind.
    I think its about what’s inside that counts most with all men.


  43. I have dated women of all races. Typically, young freckly white women seem to like me and I like them too. However, dark, light, kinky hair or straight locks; I am simply obsessed with very beaufully women. I love gorgeous faces and lovely, sexy bodies or all colors and shapes.

    Currently I work with three black women, three white women, and a whole boat load of goofy guys. One of the black women is so dark I can’t even describe the color – her body is beautiful, but her face sends me to heaven and back. If she were mean and grouchy I would still say that she has a face for vogue, but her joyful personality is so uplifting that she trully glows!

    Another is more fair, kinda brown skinned She is pretty, and her body is even more extraordinary. Her butt though is actually painful to look at. It is so hot. The fact that she knows that is she is attractive and yet, somehow, and ever-so-gracefully, makes us all feel that it is ok for us to look at her, is in part what makes her so appealing. I’m not saying that she flaunts it all, but she does kinda pause, lets us have a look, than she smiles, and then goes about her business.

    If they were not bright women, I would be paying much less attention. They are sharp and vibrant.


  44. I LOVE ALL PEOPLE. HOWEVER, IF I’D MEET LETS SAY A WHITE GUY LIKE MARK WHALBERG, OR JEFFREY LYONS THEN WE CAN DEFINITLY TALK.


  45. I am a white man and I think African features on a woman are beautiful, whether she is dark, light or anything in between. Alfre Woodard has strong African features and her husband is white.


  46. And I also think the very curvy bodies of African American women are very appealing.


  47. There will be white men who like all kinds of black women. The point of this post is that most of them seem to prefer a certain kind.


  48. It is more appropriate that you said “seem to prefer” because if you are basing the preference of “most” white men from what the media portrays, I can tell you that the media has never asked for my opinion or that of other white men who appreciate thickness and ‘Afrocentric’ beauty in women. I can only speak for myself and that is what it is really about: individuals, not groups. I would prefer not to state my ethnicity, but I only do it to let people know that many white men don’t match a stereotype of what a white man is presumed to think or behave. It is just as ridiculous to paint white men with a broad brush as it is with any other group.


  49. on Tue 20 Jan 2009 at 04:00:47 mynameismyname

    Yeah, A White Guy, there is no one “type” of black woman that “most” white men would like. I think Aba is drawn to the fact that the black women who choose to be romantically involved with a white male don’t usually don’t look near-white. That doesn’t surprise me because the vast majority of black women don’t look white(ish). Plus, people usually like constrast in their mates.


  50. Mynameismyname, I agree about the attraction of contrast. Perhaps that is why many light skinned African American women are attracted to darker skinned men and vice versa
    .


  51. Perhaps I am stuck by how the women are not near-white, but I am not basing it on the media as I see so few such couples on televsion. I am basing it mainly on what I see in New York.


  52. on Wed 21 Jan 2009 at 05:24:54 mynameismyname

    Yes, John, people like constrast. Usually, when I’ve seen a lightly complexioned black person, their mate was darker. Part of this is lack of choice. If you’re a black person’s who’s “light”, you’re in the minority AND of course, that sense of constrast.

    Whites, exhibit similar behavior, with hair color. Dark hair with bright hair, etc.

    Same thing with let’s say, size. Thin likes heavyset. And so forth.


  53. on Mon 26 Jan 2009 at 08:54:17 sapphire georgia

    Thank you for all of your comments.

    I am a 35 year old corporate black female pursuing may masters degree. I am 5’10”, light skin, long hair, thick lips, size 10 pants but size 8 dress. I am attracted to white men but I have only attracted the attention of one white man. He was an older gentleman and things didn’t work out (not because he is older as I loved that about him). I have been discourged because it appears that there is something about me that makes me invisible to white men of any age. I have been doing research on what white men look for in black women; not because I want to change myself but because I seek understanding.

    I have read all of these postings and they have all been quite helpful. My only regret is that I found this blog so long after it was initiated.

    Again, I thank you all for your comments.


  54. White men have different tastes. Some like a more white mixed looking women that is part black. Whilst others like darker black women. I can remeber seeing a survey on mister poll that said most white men that like black women like them to be brown skin ie, sanaa lathan or halle berry or dark brown skin ie, naomi campbell or kerry washington. But really beauty had nothing to do with skin colour.


  55. I thoughtthis was a very interesting post. I, along with my bestfriend, are black females that love white men. But I am, not really big, maybe a little thicker than average. I’m about 5’9, and I weigh about 200lbs. On the other hand my friend is pretty small, and while the same height, she weighs about 125lbs. She has only dated, primarily, white guys. She has also been in at least four serious relationships with white guys. Unlike her, I have never been in a serious relationship with any white guys. I have dated a few, but a relationship never developed. Throughout my experience of dating white guys, I have found that every single one I’ve dated(about six or seven) ended up only being interested in sexual relations with me. I definitely was not interested in that. So, usually I only went out with these guys once or twice.


  56. Also, I think the point of this article was to point out the type of black female that most white guys seem to date. I have yet to come across a white guy that’s interested in dating heavier black females. I agree with abagond, and others, who noticed that white guys seem to go for the darker, and thinner black female. I didn’t mention this earlier, but I am a medium skinned black female that prefers to keep my hair long, and straight.(sometimes I wear it in natural curls)I do notice that I might get a little bit more attention from white guys when I wear my hair in curls. But I don’t think that really is an issue because my friend also prefers to keep hers long and straight.


  57. Also, I think it’s really cool to hear responses from white, and other non-black, guys. WE NEED MORE RESPONSES LIKE THAT!!!!


  58. I resemble the girl in the opening picture (with the curly hair) and I mostly attract white guys. In fact, my friends tease me about it.

    But, I don’t attract a lot of black guys, at least in the midwest. They seem to like heavier women.

    White guys seem to like a thin, sleek look. Some, not all.


  59. I have to disagree just a little with Anon. Black men are becoming increasingly attracted thin women. I have a lot of guy friends that would have dated a nice heavier woman, but they are more interested in thin women. Some of their opinions about it were that they didn’t want their peers making fun of them. (Keep in mind, these are guys from the ages of 23-28).


  60. sapphire georgia Says:
    Mon 26 Jan 2009 at 08:54:17

    “Thank you for all of your comments.

    I am a 35 year old corporate black female pursuing may masters degree. I am 5′10″, light skin, long hair, thick lips, size 10 pants but size 8 dress. I am attracted to white men but I have only attracted the attention of one white man. He was an older gentleman and things didn’t work out (not because he is older as I loved that about him). I have been discourged because it appears that there is something about me that makes me invisible to white men of any age. I have been doing research on what white men look for in black women; not because I want to change myself but because I seek understanding.

    I have read all of these postings and they have all been quite helpful. My only regret is that I found this blog so long after it was initiated.

    Again, I thank you all for your comments.”

    Sapphire Georgia, it sounds like you are an attractive woman with a lot going for you, but you feel like you are invisible to men that you are attracted to. Are you introverted or extroverted? I think many men take notice of women who project self-confidence and who know what they want and go for it.


  61. I am a white Italian-American guy. While I agree with the women who are shown in the “Many white men would date these women” (Who could resist that smile and those dimples on Gabrielle Union, or the amazingly Halle Berry, who just seems to get more beautiful as she gets older?), I take issue with some of the women listed in the section “Way fewer white men would date these”. I used to watch Girlfriends to see Jill Marie Jones, who I think is very attractive, and maybe it’s just an Italian thing, but I also find the short and voluptuous Angell Conwell to be very attractive.

    I find that most black women in my area do not seem interested in us white guys. Some of the Jamaican women are, but I have not been fortunate enough to meet any unmarried ones. I tend to be shy with all women, so if I sense that a woman is not interested, I will not approach her.

    The black women that I am attracted to tend to be college educated, professional women, with a cute smile, a good sense of humor, and a shapely figure (not to skinny, not too fat). Of course, those are the same physical characteristics that I find attractive in any woman.

    To any black woman out there who might be interested in dating a white guy, the only advice that I can give, is talk to the guy a little, laugh a little, flirt a little, and see if he is interested. You’ll know if he is. Remember, you’ll never succeed unless you try.


  62. Chanel06 said:

    I have to disagree just a little with Anon. Black men are becoming increasingly attracted thin women.

    I have heard that, that black ideas of female beauty have been getting thinner – since about the 1990s. Not sure how true it is…


  63. Isn’t it ironic that the second list of black women that weren’t as favoured by white men as the first contained women who: wore more weaves, not so long facial features and weren’t as natural as the first group.
    To challenge a quote that was made earlier, I don’t believe it is because these men are intimidated by our ‘blackness’, in fact I think the complete opposite. It depends on what your definition of ‘blackness’is. The second group of women overall seemed to embrace the stereotypical definition of being a black women whereas the first group carried themselves with elegance, were more decent and natural. The natural aspect itself shows that these men are intrigued and attracted to the TRUE definition of blackness: natural hair, positive attitudes, more or less make up free skin and spirituality…


  64. I agree with Princess A.


  65. Chanel 06, I think you may be right. I have noticed that the younger generation coming up are more attracted to thin women. This is evident in hip-hop videos. Back in the day, women who were in them were thick (BBD, Sir Mix Alot), but now they focus on thinner model-types “model chics”lol. Even on an everyday aspect, younger black men or more inclined to approach. That’s good though.

    Some of abagond ideas are outdated. The notion that thick black women are most attractive. And other things that men USED to think about women, but no longer do. I’m glad that men are starting to be more evolved, especially black men.


  66. first of all men being attracted to women is natural.
    what is unnatural is what i call “the forbidden fruit syndrome”
    it is a form of manipulation that has been carried from generation to generation and it’s purpose is to stop men and women of different races from forming relationships with each other.
    it thrives on fear, making people feel that it is something really bad for white and black men and women to mix.
    but it does is cause frustration, because you can stop people mixing but you can’t stop people feeling frustrated.
    until 1967 in the usa it was according to the law, illegal for a black man to marry a white woman and visa versa.
    can you imagine the frustration that must have caused?
    now imagine if the people that made and enforced that law were denied access to food and water?
    there would have been an uproar!
    they would say they have a need to eat by virtue of being a human being.
    humans have a need to reach out to fellow humans for friendship/relationships/marriage.
    yet African American people were denied the freedom to mix with fellow humans regardless of skin color.
    again can you imagine the frustration that must have caused?
    the black people had to stick to their own kind.
    it would be fair to say well since black people were treated inhumanly why would they even want to form friendships with the white people that were oppressing them?
    but if the saying that “a house divided against itself cannot stand” is true(and it is) then how could there ever be peace even for the oppressors?
    if you split something in two by nature both fall away, did the segregation laws result in happiness?
    no it didn’t and it never could.
    did it stop black males and white females being attracted to each other?
    i doubt it.
    the fear of punishment no doubt exercised a restraint against daring to do what was considered “wrong”.
    but that “wrong” was not wrong, what was wrong was segregation.
    do you think that if man had not treated their fellow human beings with such inhumanity and cruelty, people then and now would have no fear of mixing with people of other races?
    you see, in the 21st century, the influence and stain of segregation although by law has been abolished, it is easy to tear up statue law books, but harder to remove them from our hearts.
    the day we as humans share the same goals which is to leave behind a model for future generations to follow in which people no longer seek to dominate each other to each others injury, maybe then green shoots of peace to a certain extent might grow.


  67. on Wed 25 Feb 2009 at 05:02:23 Jamaicannewyorker

    I did not read all of the posts but I just want to make a few comments.

    – The concept of “acting black” is racist. There is no one way that all black people behave. As already written, everyone is an individual and once white men recognize that, these generalizations will disappear.

    – Furthermore, a man cannot evaluate a woman’s personality by looking at her so I don’t understand how a white male can identify a “white” black woman by seeing her on the subway or in Starbucks.

    – As a New Yorker, I understand where some of the concepts in the original posts are from. I have made many of those same observations. But perhaps it only applies to New York? I don’t know.

    – The most important statement in the original post, however, has nothing to do with any of these issues. The most important statement was MOST WHITE MEN DO NO GO FOR BLACK WOMEN.


  68. MOST WHITE MEN DO NO GO FOR BLACK WOMEN.

    I agree with Jamaican. That is at the heart of it all and why I think it’s rather foolish and a pheonomal waste of time to solicit the biased and racially damaging views of what white men think is attractive when they have never really seen us as anything viable beyond an object of vilification, ridicule and disgust that renders us invisible–unless they think we are encroaching on their spaces or taking away there money through welfare manipulation.

    As a rule they are making exceptions to the supposed few that they deign to believe are attractive enough, otherwise they are going to glob us into one indistinguishable mass that only a few black/other women who have white/exotic or acceptable level of features that allows them to escape the black hole of perceived black female ugliness.

    In total it is best to gage what we as black people (and all its diversity) find attractive and to work to excoriate the insidious views we have adopted about our physical attributes to fit in a stifling white ideal that we could never be.


  69. I have read everyones blog. It took me an hour and a half about. I oftern get ofended when people say act black. What exactly is acting black? Not everyone in that is african american talks what everyone so called says is black. I’m from pgh, pa and I see as many wm/bw as I do bm/ww. All different features I have seen. I date a white guy and it is because of his personality first. My mothers father was mixed. His mother was german. I am a bit of everything, but I am a black woman. My hair has went from long to short, straght to curly because I do what I like at the time. My guy still loves me. All white guys aren’t college graduates either. Some white guys do actually live in the hood. Its not always about white educated men finding black educated men. I wonder why people care so much what a white guy likes about black women. To me everyone has different tastes and preferences. There isn’t a blog that could cover why white men like black women. Nowadays everyone dates outside their race. Be it white guy, black guy, or the other


  70. White educated men finding white educated women lol. Sorry about that. That would be a different blog lol


  71. and a again black women. I must go onto bed. I am sleepy. Excuse my typing. gn


  72. I with agree Iamme that everyone has different preferences. I’d like to add that I think those preferences in facial features and body type are not always connected to race. If a guy white or otherwise likes full lips and most black women have full lips he probably will date black women. If a guy likes blue eyes he will probably date white women…or women who regularly wear blue contacts at least.

    Having said that, there is some truth in Abagond’s observations of what types of features are considered attractive by white men (and white people in general) in black women. I can’t tell you how many times white people have complimented my high cheekbones, asked me if I’m a model(I wish), and even questioned my heritage(both my parents are black)while the same feature goes unnoticed by and is unremarkable to people of other races.


  73. I am a mixed 21 year old. I am multi ethnic..half Indian,English,Dutch, Fijian and Polynesian.

    My father was full indian and my mother was mixed she is very fair. I am a light to medium brown depending ont the seasons.

    I do get a lot of attention because of my ‘exotic-ness’. I am beautiful to many males. I have had a lot of white men attracted to me of every age. I have also had many other races attracted.

    To me, I am beautiful girl on a general level with every male from diffrent ethnicities and races. I get equal attention because I am very pretty and ‘mysterious’ to most men because I have just about everything in me.

    I believe that most men find girls who are not their race to be far more attractive. Like I am brown, but many other men from ‘brown’ races still approach me because I am DIFFRENT looking from what they see and expect of their GENERIC women.

    All people in thier races look alike. South Americans, Indians, Africans all have generic looks. Every race has the generic typical look. Women who stand outside the generic look of what the race is tends to be more attractive.

    Men really just love a Beautiful woman.

    I am engaged to a white American man. He loves me. He is average height and average build 5’11 with medium brown hair that was white blond as a child and hazel eyes. I am small petite 5’1 with natural DD breasts for a small girl, black thick hair that is straight for half of the hair but curls at the ends with an athletic build.

    Again. It depends on preferences. Men love diffrences. I know I love variety. I am excited about what our children will look like. The possibilities are endless. :)

    The world needs to be more intergrated and mixed up. That is what I hope for.


  74. i am a white male, 22. in my opinion, most general white men are attracted to european-similar features of women from mixed or other races, mostly because of social conditioning. if you are white and middle class, seeing european or similar features is what is dictated as beautiful, and i think naturally it becomes ingrained in the mind.

    but there are no absolute truths, for there is always another, and another answer to each and every question. for instance, besides my beautiful fiance who i consider to easily be the most adorable person i will ever know, i can say that no matter what race or features a woman has, no matter what race, can be attractive to me. there is no set standard, it is merely intuitive as to what true beauty is. i can say that they are all attractive in their own way.

    but this goes only with stating the following, MAKEUP does NOT mean BEAUTIFUL. a woman is at her peak beauty when raw in herself, illuminating positive spirit and a sense of peace or joy.

    i may be in the minority when it comes to finding girls attractive from every part of the world, but remember that this may not even be the case. white men often may also be unconcsciously covering up their own feelings when it comes to deeming any person attractive or not. there are a lot of societal pressures, but also from friends or family.

    its also true that european colonists raped slaves of the carribean, africans, and others in other colonised countries. perhaps some women gave into it as well, but there is definetly a truth to white men finding other races interesting. white people can see their culture monopolising the world right now, and anything different from that is interesting.

    have i said enough?


  75. i dont really find the stereotypes flattering that were in the post, i am a fit 30 year old brown skinned woman, attractive, i think i have a good personality, love to laugh, and eclectic music tastes. i have had it hard from both sides, too white for some blacks, and culturally insensitive white people, i have had white guy friends who expressed interest in me and for whatever reason i wasnt attracted.

    Black guys approach sometimes but its not the mannerly approach that i like( not trying to sound bad here) basically i am picky, picky in the sense that i want to be respected and treated like a lady, not as easy to find these days as you think.

    i used to have my profile on some site for awhile, overwhelmingly older white guys hit my profile, very few if any black, i think its a catch 22, black men often say we

    are loud, hard to deal with and not “feminine ” enough, well i am none of those things and i am pretty, but the black guys seem to think i am unnaproachable and so do alot of the white ones, funny enough, when someone does approach seriously it usually is a white guy. go figure


  76. I want to ask a black women a question , you are americans don’t you know that most white american men are racist?not all, most are .I am from a different country , and i noticed how black females (those with african feautures) are consider “ugly” by mosst white american men.The less you look like an african the more attention and looks you get.It all has to do with slavery the racist white men has too keep the white race on the top and the black race on the bottom.I am sick of american men the reason why they date me is because i can pass for a south east asian(i am part) and i also look polynesian , but i still look part black , but i don’t look very african .I am also sick and tire of the stereotypes of how they view african american women.Most of the white males i dated they had nothing in mind but race , they look down on african american women , they will say african american women are ugly specially the dark ones , with kinky nasty hair and they are sluts , lazy and nasty ect, ect, ect , i was so sick and tired of the bull that i desided i will not date them any more.I date only european men , i have never heard one word about color , or they parents will not acept me .My european boyfriend mostly talk about his culture , about my beauty and lots of positive stough , it feels so good .If you want a white men look some place else not in america that is my advice , you are not speciall in america , face it ,white women will always comes first in beauty standards , i don’t have time for kind of racist crap , because life is too short. I don’t particurly find white american men attractive , most think they are too good for a black women , well european men are so hot , specially the brits and nordic men .I am not saying that all white men in america are racist , but i had seen and dated lots of ignorant men , but at least they were honest.There is ugly and good looking people in every race , but most of them (white american men) will say it is just my preference , :BULL” most of it is “RACISM” white is better and black is inferior , colonial views.I seen more african american women with low self steem in america and i had also seen more african and carribean women in europe with way much more self steem.African american women please travel maybe you will feel good about yourself then being in a country that is negative towards your skin color.Excuse my spelling , english is my second language , thank you


  77. Oleu,

    It’s mostly true especially in the midwest where nordic, blue-eyed blondes reigned supreme. When these guys go outside their race, they pick Asian and non-Black Latinas. I hardly see them with Black women, mixed or not. Not even the ones who conformed to the Eurocentric beauty system the most. This is because the region is highly segregated by race/class.

    La Reyna


  78. One more thing , most americans say that most Germans are nazi , but guess what? i dated Germans men and i am telling you , a dark skin women are viewed as exotic , so who are the nazis?American men wake up in the mornings thinking about race , sleep thinking about race , talk to their friends about race , woow.I don’t hate white american men , i am just telling what i had experience dating white american men , i just don’t have time for all that drama and racist crap.I am light skin , by the way.I had seen more black women with white men in europe then in america , is just preference in america? or mostly racism? you know the answers , ladies..I am not saying there is no racism in europe , because there is , but there is no colonial views and no slavery so their views is totaly dfferent .


  79. I think british , swedish and dutch men are the best .I will never, ever date white american men , they are not worth my time . I don’t want to go through that again .They always have a negative excuse towards black women , please don’t tell me that asian and hispanic women are all that inocent , because it is not true.I some times hate looking as a South East Asian , because they (white american men )have this nasty stereotype about them and expect me to act like that , euuuuu, grossss. I don’t hate , i am just being realistic.


  80. Oleu,

    I’m not saying that Asian and Hispanic women are innocent. Neither are Blonde White women. White guys do fetishize such women though.

    La Reyna


  81. Oleu,

    Believe me, I read several stories of women who looked White, Hispanic, and Asian get burned by those white American men because they have Black ancestry. As if Blackness is a taint that “pollutes” “white purity.”

    Those COWARDS have no backbone whatsoever because some friend or family member have negative views of Blacks.

    I agree, European men have less hangups about race and culture than arrogant American men.

    By the way, I’m a Black woman.

    La Reyna


  82. SNIDE COMMENTS HURT by Vivian Johnson, Ph.D

    Snide comments hurt

    When I read articles concerning Don Imus’s slanderous comments directed against black college women, I thought at first that the overall response to his words was excessive. That is, until I saw the broadcast for myself on the Internet. Don Imus’s words hurt. My reaction surprised me because I had already read about his comments ad nauseum in the news. Simply put, Imus’s words hurt. When I heard his words, I was not prepared for the delivery. What I felt was his gut level disdain for black people.

    Sadly, this same feeling resurfaced during the Annual New Resident Breakfast at the Oakwood Community Center this month when one of my fellow new residents made me the brunt of his poor humor. As I entered the building, I was greeted warmly by various city officials and then walked to a table staffed by the Mayor to get my nametag. I inadvertently got mixed into a family who was waiting to get their nametags. In the mix-up, I managed to stand next to the father/husband of the family.

    The Mayor was diligently looking for this family’s nametags in a file box. When she lifted her head, she saw me standing beside the white gentleman and she said, “Is this your wife?” The man put his arm around me and said with great sarcasm, “Yeah, this is my wife.” He said it as if it were preposterous that I, a black woman, could be his wife. The gentleman seemed to lack the open-mindedness exhibited by the Mayor. At that moment, I wanted to leave.

    After I got my nametag, I did in fact leave and called a Christian friend for moral support. I told him that while I thought it important for me to stay at the event, I did not want to be in an environment with people who thought that I was somehow less than, or inferior because of my skin color. My friend encouraged me to go back to the breakfast as the light for people who walked in darkness. His words strengthened me as I walked into this event armed with a Christian directive. I am glad I returned to the event as I had a good time meeting the new residents of Oakwood. I have also enjoyed subsequent conversations with a couple of the city officials.

    There is a bit of Imus in all of us. I am pretty certain the man who offended me has no idea of the harm his snide comment caused. Instead of distancing ourselves from these comments, this is an opportune moment for education. It is best to go toward that which makes us uncomfortable. A good beginning for understanding the visceral negative feelings toward black people is the documentary on race in America entitled “Ethnic Notions.” I think it critical to dismantle beliefs that perpetuate the unfair treatment of any human being so that we leave a legacy for our children of which we are proud.

    What say you?

    La Reyna


  83. Check out this video and post your comments on youtube. Type in (Why Do Black Men Prefer White Or Lightskin Women?)


  84. Le reyna – I am glad you went back to that meeting. That man was a dumb @ss. Be proud of who you are. I grew up in a christian white family – but was raised that one should judge a person actions – and nothing else. Edvidence of my parents beliefs can be found in their grandchildren.

    Oleu – not all white american men are so narrow minded. My husband has dated in the past and been engaged to women of many different races. And I know lots of inter racial couples where I live – where the women is black. And not “light skinned could pass” But beautifully african with dark skin and rich dark eyes. Tis is not to say that light skineed black women are not beautiful. But my point is that not all white men are so narrow minded.


  85. oleu Says:

    Fri 13 Mar 2009 at 00:49:44

    “I want to ask a black women a question , you are americans don’t you know that most white american men are racist?not all, most are .I am from a different country , and i noticed how black females (those with african feautures) are consider “ugly” by mosst white american men.The less you look like an african the more attention and looks you get.”

    Oleu, there are many American white men who are attracted to women with African features. You just haven’t met them and many of them don’t advertise it.


  86. on Fri 13 Mar 2009 at 21:01:34 lifeisannoying

    in reply to oleu, colonialism started in europe and really only ended in the 1980’s in regards to the english speking world. France still has colonies in martinque and guadaloupe. so there. and as for white european men not being as racist as others… bullcrap!!! many of them have binary hatred /sexual desire thing going…. you sound delusional.


  87. hie people, im a black female who was raised in africa and is currently going to college in america. i am skinny (fast metabolism), and have a medium complexion. most people tell me that i am cute and have a very good command of the english language, i am also very laid back.i just wanted to say that most of the time when i meet black males and they find out that i am african i get the “eeeuuuu!!!! you’re from africa!you’re blacker than i am!!” typy of look, after which they wont even give me a chance. but white guys will come and talk to me, and when they find that i can speak very good english, laugh, have a positive attitude and actually know what’s happening around the world they are very attracted. interesting!!and then you know what happens? the same black guys who despised me at first come back and give me attention. it feels like they think ‘ok, if the white dude liked you maybe you’re good for something’ what”s up with that? back home the issues that matter here dont matter there at all, and there are a number of white people, and yes our country was colonised . just thought that was really funny.


  88. I find the generalizations a necessary component to any argument and in this instance it does not differ. As a young, educated white male, the tendency in choosing a partner usually lies in the given situation. Meaning, if you go out to meet a black woman at an Irish pub, the chances on meeting a BW are probably pretty slim. So, first question, does the place that WM look to meet BW play a major role in the situation?

    I grew up and go to school in San Francisco where sexual diversity and bi-racial relationships seem to be a norm; except in the case of white men with black women. The reverse is open and you see many BM with WW. Even in a city as vast and culturally diverse as SF is, there seems to be lacking connection between BW and WM. I can speak for myself only, but in my experience BW are not as in tune for a bi-racial relationship with a WM as is for a BM with a WW. Again, this is only personal experience and I am basing this only on simple observations.

    Without any brag or boast, I have no problem meeting women or men that matter. I have a build which could be closer associated to that of a BM – as a former college athlete, I have thick legs, a skinny waist, toned upper body. As my my parents are not orig. from the the states I do not look like a traditional midwestern WM. Instead I have defined jaw line, large lips and darker skin than that of the majority of white men (my italian side) and very little body hair (my dutch side). Before this begins to sound like a personal ad, I have to say that these are broad characteristics, and in no way does appearance produce immediate qualities for attraction. They are simply characteristics that those people close to me (other than myself) have observed and wondered why women of other ethnicities seem to find them attractive, when it is the BW who I truly desire but seem to have no luck in meeting.

    As an open minded individual, I see skin color simply as pigmentation and still, I have not had the opportunity to date a black woman. I believe this can in part be attributed to the places I frequent, the crowds being predominantly white, asian and latin. – writing and art based. Nonetheless, I have still pursued many BW and yet, I have been left wondering what it is that a woman wants, then, what is that a BW wants from or desires in a WM?

    Yes, stereotypes are thrown to the wind in this posting, however in my life, they seem to be true. Could it be my demeanor? The over-confidence I tend to exude? Could it be that I am just not the right fit for the individual women regardless of my ethnicity? Again, without sounding like too much of an ass, I have absolutely no problem meeting other ‘types’ of women, so why is there this barrier between me and that which I desire?

    The conversations, the looks and the flirtation never seem to be any more than an initial hello and consequent good-bye. So why is it that the approach is never a problem, rather the next five minutes are. Her friends begin to question and assume and my friends do the same. Could it be that even in a racial melting pot such as San Francisco, the larger picture, the one in which nationwide racial borderings can have an effect on the inner city? Are we behind the times, even in the most diverse and accepting city in the US?

    These are questions with personal association written all over them, I know, but they are also feelings and situations felt by other white men. So I pose this question; If a black man and a white man with similar physical attributes, speech, dress education and personality stand next to one another – would it be would they both stand an equal chance in courting the same BW? (obviously case dependent but the i believe you see the larger picture that I am getting at) Is society in the way of the evolution of bi-racial contact? or is it simply based on individual preference?


  89. Few white men would date Toccora Jones?

    Hmmm.. sure … few gay white men. (Actually I am not so sure about that.. for a while most of the “gay” men I knew were having more sex with women than I was .. very annoying..)


  90. on Thu 26 Mar 2009 at 05:47:35 Imanie / Jenn

    I agree with a lot of what is written on this page, sad but true.

    I just moved to the Midwest and find a lot of white men look at me but never appoach me.

    thatgirljenn1@yahoo.com if you live around here and would like to talk and hopefully have a meaningful relationship (i’m 24)


  91. I am a black South African woman interested in marrying a white male preferably with blonde or light brown hair and blue or blue-green eyes. I’m 5’7 and size 10, 130lbs and friendly. My add: tan83@webmail.co.za
    I love black men and I don’t have issues with the way I look, I’m beautiful..I just have this strong attraction towards white guys


  92. tan83@webmail.co.za if you would love to marry a South African woman, I am very friendly and love white guys


  93. European men are more open to interracial dating but I think they might be more prejudiced about nationality. For instance, black American women get eaten up in Germany but I don’t know how it is for African women.
    Of course, if you’re in France or Italy, the blacker the better.

    Black woman married to a German man, BTW. Dated a few white American and British men, as well, and had no problems. A few of my other black friends and relatives are married to or dating white men. If anything, my experience would say that white men have a preference for the REALLY dark African-looking women. As one French colleague put it: “You’re pretty Vanessa, but so pale. What is the point of dating a black woman if she looks like a white one?” Then they all started waxing ecstatic about dark women. (roll eyes here)

    And remember, the one-drop-rule doesn’t apply over there so they probably wouldn’t even consider you “black” unless you were REALLY dark. Usually they’d describe me as an “American girl” and physically as “dark-skinned, dark-haired, and curvy” (and my husband always adds “short”. For them, black is a color.

    For example: Boris Becker was married to a black woman for a long time (and they were a much-admired couple) and then cheated on her (before getting divorced) with a string of dark-skinned but not necessarily black women. Asian, Middle-Eastern, South American, African, he didn’t care as long as they were dark enough.


  94. please take a look at my very own site geared towards this matter its called swirl society an exclusive website for black women and white men we have just changed over to our new look and it is 100% free to join


  95. my name is squirrel and im a white guy and i feel that if you love someone white or black it because you love that person. i have mixed people in my family and i love all of them and by the way i married a black women and she has small lips and a small butt and dark skin we was togother for 12 years until god need her and i still love her.


  96. I grew up in Texas and have lived here all of my life. I don’t know about New York, but no one dates black women here unless they are rebellious. I dated and was engaged to a white man for almost 10 years, only to find out that he never felt comfortable marrying me because of the racial slurs he was subjected to unbeknownst to me. Knowing that you love someone, but that the world will never let you have them, is something I wish on no one.


  97. on Sun 5 Apr 2009 at 05:57:34 Chocolato con Bianco

    “Just love the one your with.”

    My girlfriend and I are inseparable. I cannot even begin to tell you ‘all just how special of a person she is. We celebrate our differences, and yet marvel at our similarities.

    I spend most of my time enjoying her inner beauty, rather than focusing on her hair configuration, skin tone, size of her hips/butt, etc.

    Having said all the above, I’m not oblivious to the sometimes jaundice looks we get as an interracial couple; wm-bw. I just chose to focus on those that say “you two are such a happy couple.”

    Ciao tutti!


  98. Hi Everyone,

    This blog is really interesting and I have found most to be true.

    I’m a slender/curvy BW with natural hair and am compared to Tracy Ellis Ross often, and noticed that more WM find me attractive and exotic then BM do.

    My booty was never big enough for a Blk guy, skin never light enough, and my dialect never black enough. WM and other nationalities however look at me and see a beautiful natural woman of color. I spent many years trying to be accepted by BM and did date many, but it always ended with them wanting a “blacker” sista.

    True Love really is color-blind in my opinion, i have learned that in my experiences. Once i stopped trying to be a stereo typical “Video girl” and just accepted who God wanted me to be, love found me.

    sappy but so true!


  99. When it comes to matters of the heart, you should always follow your heart!!!

    Love & Soul mate are hard to find as is!! AND marriages are hard to maintain.

    For example the rate of divorce in the US alone, is probably at 80% now..and this is mainly due to the fact that American men & women across the board marry not for love, BUT for status,money,jobs,connections and so forth.

    Do not be delusion to the USA is a melting pot.. Racism is alive and well in the good ole USA and it will continue to be so, You want to see a real melting pot, go to London & Holland & Paris! -let us not leave out the Italian men-they are marrying African & Carribean Black women at alarming rates!!!

    In the US in order for Whites to maintain power, they must keep a group/s beneath them. Although this is changing due to the population change. Also I find that American men(regardless of their race) are weaker in mind set than most other men from other countries, hence why most white american men (although they desire other women of color) pretend and marry what society here wants them to marry..AND this in term leads to the massive amounts of cheating and adultery. (who do you think frequently visit hookers..and the women they cheat rarely look like their wives in Suburbia..

    I have lived in both London, Paris & New York and could not wait to return to London!!! Talk about comparing genuine and melting pot people to fake and phony & RUDE New Yorkers.. Americans need to catch up to the rest of the world if they want to be apart of it.

    Black American women need to realize that outside of the US, they are valued, loved and appreciated and need to be more open minded..this coming from a Scottish/Dutch & Pakistani woman who has been HAPPILY married to a georgeous German/Hungarian man for 10 years and happily lives in London!!!

    Always stay true to yourself and who you are, you only have 1 Life!


  100. Jeanette Says:
    “My booty was never big enough for a Blk guy, skin never light enough, and my dialect never black enough. WM and other nationalities however look at me and see a beautiful natural woman of color. I spent many years trying to be accepted by BM and did date many, but it always ended with them wanting a “blacker” sista.”

    Jeanette, I am a little confused when you say you are not light enough for BM, but that they are looking for a woman who is “blacker?”


  101. Oh, I did love London… A great place for a woman to travel to alone. Not at all scary and the people are very open and friendly there. Cricket, you know.

    And so much cleaner and pleasanter than Paris. I found Strasbourg, Toulouse, and some other parts of France much better than Paris. New York is pretty nice but the people… I don’t know. Not really my kind of place.

    We actually thought about moving to London or Cambridge (we have friends living in England) but the weather is just… so… crappy. It really is. Such a shame because it’d be damn near paradise, otherwise. Where else can you get such great curry AND sushi?

    Yes, Europe seems less racist when you live there than America does. Race has resurfaced as a topic for me since I moved back. It’s all so segregated here. Sort of depressing. There are people who move across the divide but the divide is still there.
    There are many things that are better here than over there, but race-relations isn’t one of them, IMO.

    For 10 years I was just another American woman and now I’m a “What exactly are you? No, I mean REALLY?” again. *sigh*


  102. If black men are more attracted to slim women, then why are they usually seen with fat sloppy looking “bottom of the barrel” white women? Could this indicate that black men hold black women to a higher standard than white women. If so, would this explain why 70% of black women are single via abandonment by their own black men? Hmm just a thought.


  103. on Sun 26 Apr 2009 at 06:40:30 mynameismyname

    70% of black women are single? LOL!!!! (As if someone could honestly tabulate that, anyway).

    Aba maintains that black men tend to go for ‘thicker’ women. Not slim.

    I swear, Aba, this blog attracts the craziest white posters. How do you do it? LOL.


  104. Some of her examples of women that white men would not date are way off. Sade was married to a white man for over 15 years. Estell has a child with a white guy. I do see her point, but when it comes to black people in Europe like Sade and Estelle all bets are off because European men aren’t so picky, they just black must be exotic.


  105. on Sun 26 Apr 2009 at 14:41:27 mynameismyname

    Estelle has a child with a white man? Really? I didn’t know that she was a mother.

    Yes, Sade was married to Carlos Scola, a Spaniard for years. However, her daughter’s father is Jamaican.


  106. what: Right, I am basing it on what I see in New York. I hear that in Europe the white men have much broader tastes in black women. They seem to see their beauty more – or maybe they are just more honest about it.

    I have a blog called Black Beauty of the Day. It gets a ton of hits from Britain, Germany and the Netherlands. I know there are plenty of blacks in London and black American servicemen stationed in Europe, but I think it is more than just that.


  107. Heather said:

    If black men are more attracted to slim women, then why are they usually seen with fat sloppy looking “bottom of the barrel” white women? Could this indicate that black men hold black women to a higher standard than white women. If so, would this explain why 70% of black women are single via abandonment by their own black men? Hmm just a thought.

    Wow, I hope that made you feel better. It is not quite that simple. Here is my take on it:

    http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/07/31/why-so-few-black-men-marry-black-women/

    I do not know where you got the 70% from or the idea that I think black men go for slim women. What I have said is that in America most black men go for thick women while most white men go for thin women:

    http://abagond.wordpress.com/2007/10/31/thick-black-women/

    If that is true, then it would make sense that black men would be with white women that their own men see as being “too fat” or, as you put it, “fat sloppy looking ‘bottom of the barrel’ white women”.


  108. mynameismyname said:

    I swear, Aba, this blog attracts the craziest white posters. How do you do it? LOL.

    I was warned they would come. I try not to answer them right away but wait till I am calmer.


  109. “I was warned they would come?” really? If a white man, or latin man was to come to the site and generalize all black men and women as “they” how would it be taken.

    To give you the benefit of the doubt, who exactly is “they?” – and what are 99% percent of people on this sire here for? – to figure out the barrier between the world of black and white. A strong barrier that has withstood the time to still be a barrier when a black president is in office.

    There are larger issues than “they” and to generalize most the white posters on this site as crazy defeats the purpose of trying to learn through communication. I find that sad, and in a way you make this blog seem like a circus or gimmick – “how do you do it?”

    Its not an issue of slim, thick, characteristics and I myself learning too, but to take it to a place where we are categorizing posters by race and mental stability goes against everything I hoped this blog stood for.

    In times like this I wonder what poet and professor Camille T. Dungy would say about the above comments. I believe she would feel this is digressing from point of such a place where people can meet and break down stereotypes and color boarders.

    Just saying…


  110. “They” refers to “the craziest white posters”. I thought that would be clear from the rules of English. Most white posters are not crazy. And even the “craziest” ones are probably not crazy in the clinical sense of insane, but just ignorant, trollish or flat-out racist.


  111. You know, Imus’ comments did not hurt me. Infuriated me, perhaps, but not hurt. The reason being that I expect that kind of comment from his ilk. And many people of his hue, unfortunately share that belief and our culture reinforces it. What hurts is when it comes from the community. When it comes from people in one’s own family. From your own men. When your own little niece all of seven years old taunts her sister for being too black, that hurts. That hurts.


  112. Wow…as a white man dating a Sudanese woman, I don’t even know what to say. I’m baffled by how ridiculously racist this article is. I don’t know if it’s worse that someone took the time to write this or that I took the time to respond.


  113. It would be better for everyone if you said just how it is racist.


  114. Most european men that i met are married to very dark skin black women with out white admixture ,if they had white blood i wasn’t able to tell.In europe the darker the better .I get hit on over there by lots of white men , but my dark african friend not mixed got alot of the attention .I worked on base there was alots of white european nato guys most of them were after black womem and part black women lots of them ignored white women.The american military men black and white were giving all the attention to the white women , but most of the white women wanted something different , but they were angry when the black women and part black women with dark skin was given all the attention .I am part black , i am multiracial lots of the nato guys were all over me , asking me out , they gave me their phone numbers , i dated some of them and i had one serious nato boyfriend , it was crazy , some of the african american women fell in love with a white , nato , officers and were engaged.The nato guys were from the uk , denmark , sweden , belgian , portugal , spain , and norway.One danish , gorgeous, officer with blond hair and blue eyes was interested in me , but one white amrican officer introduced him to a white american women with blond hair , he was so upset and refused to talk to the white american women , then the danish officer asked me out and told me if he wanted a white women he will have one specialy from his country because they are much more beautiful and naturaly blond.He also said to me he wasn’t interested in a white women there is alot in his country , he loves black or part black womwen because they are exotic .I am from europe so i am not surprised about the nato guys behavior , i get hit on all the times in europe.Please , excuse my spelling , english is my second language.I am going back to europe and i wish to marry a blond , hair and blue eyes european men , i think they are so hot and open minded , not all of them , but most of them.Even eastern european men who are much more close minded because commust party love black or part black women , i go hit on alot buy blond hair and blue eyes eastern , european men and they all looked like models.I love european men , they treat me better then the white american men i dated ,although i look exotic my black ancestry is a problem for most white american men , that is their problem not mine .At least european men sees my beauty , not just lust over it but want something very serious with me .


  115. I meant that i worked in an amrican base , there was alots of nato , good looking , young , handsome guys and most of them looked like models and didn’t want a white american women at all.I felt like a queen and a pop star , lots of african american in that base felt desame way , it was really crazy , white american men always after the white women on base , i can’t stand racist people , i love open minded people.I think european men look very good and they take care of themselves more.


  116. I am always the second choice for a white american men , but the pure black women with african features are in the botton of the list from any american men of any ethnicity white is always beautiful in america , who wants to be second choice , i want to be first choice , white women is always first choice in america .I am not american , i don’t have to deal with crap like that if they have a problem with me that is their problem.I was shocked that many black women in america didn’t know that black women are consider exotic and hot in europe , well i am not surprised the western media don’t tell you everything .Many african women don’t deal with that kind of racism , many european men from all over go to africa to choose wives they think african women are just lovely and exotic.


  117. I was shocked when i came to america because i didn’t see many black women with white men relathionships as i saw in europe , then i found out why many white american men told me black women were not their cup of tea , or not even attractive , yeah alots of them told me that , so it is not all the black women fault ,i met quite of few black women who were attracted to white guys and many told me those white guys will not dated them because they are not attracted to black women , give me a break , it has to do with racism , why white european men , most of them don’t feel desame way as white american men? i know the answer .I know some europeans are racist , but the majority are not and they are not as ignorant , believe me.Some one told me interacial marriages between black women and white men in america is increasing , but in my oppinion the percentage is not as high as in europe.Many black men from america , carribean and african always preffer white women , i know alots of them who loves white women , and always they say something negative about black women too.


  118. I would like to respond to Oleu’s post about European men being more open to dating black women. My experience being a Black British woman in London white men have not been very to open dating BW. The numbers of BW/WM couples are very low compare to BM/WW and that it rare to see BW/WM in the street in London. However, WM in the UK don’t mind dating mixed race women but it a big No No to BW and their justification for this racism is, it a personal thing so it’s okay.

    Black women in the UK are not seen as the ultimate beauty so we suffer in terms of finding partners for marriage/dating etc – we have the highest rates of singleness compare to other groups of women in the UK.

    Please check out this link on white male students attitudes towards dating black and mixed race women.

    Their comments do not surprise me one bit, racism in the UK is always there but is concealed to protect the UK’s image of being ‘tolerant’.


  119. Oleu: Thank you for your interesting comments. To American men you are not exotic because there are plenty of black women in their home country and, besides, like you said, they are seeing you through the racism you grew up with.


  120. I dont agree with your “white guys would date these women, but not these” Id date any of those women except for maybe the woman in the african garb. Nothing to do with it being “to black” or anything, i wouldnt date a polish girl in a burka or a dutch girl wearing the ridiculous dutch skirts they wear. No matter the skin color most off the boat looks dont work for me. Hell i find the so called bombshells of the 80s to be lackluster just because of the big 80s king kobra hair. That goes for Farah Fawcett and Vanessa Williams.


  121. Also i never understood the whole “i just dont find them attractive” thing that some white men say in regards to black women. It makes no sense to me. Im convinced its just a racism thing they cant get passed and they dont even give a women a chance who isnt white. Or they are just lying to me and themselves.


  122. A 54 yo WM with a history in cross-cultural dating I happened on this while browsing for eye-candy …

    For what it’s worth, Naomi Campbell would embody the black beauty for me (her outside, that is). Regardless of colour, I prefer women with subtler shapes on a slim frame, and an attractive face. Colour is secondary, although I don’t cherish pasty white. Shade of dark in skin doesn’t matter, in fact the darker the more alluring the contrast with the pink bits. The permanent tan of mulattas is nice too, especially with a cascade of curly locks (although my Colombian ex had wire-brush-like pubic hair with it). Natural hair: it’s nice to dig one’s fingers into an afro, but I appreciate that women tend to want what they haven’t got. Just don’t go for blonde (although there are natural blondes and redheads in Papua New Guinea and the Solomon Islands).

    Hungary in the 1970s had too few black people to have real prejudices. My Eritrean girlfriend at university was seen as a curiosity by my mates, but my mother liked her a lot (in hindsight she was the one to marry, but I headed to Australia and she back home to fight for independence).

    Australia is pretty easygoing with mixed relationships. Most Aboriginals are culturally very distant for others, hence intermarriage is less than it used to be during convict times. We have few Africans, so mixed couples tend to have a SOuth-East Asian half (Indians don’t marry out). Still, when I was going out with a Ghanian, it raised no eyebrows.


  123. I couldnt agree with you more! Having lived in white neighborhoods all my life in Europe the Us and Africa (shocking I know) I confirm that white men are more in to face and slim body shape. I am a very dark skinned woman, but I am tall and slim have no but what so ever, and very fine features and I get picked up more by white men than black men. White men will even approach me over light skinned good looking black females with more “african shape” bodies. And yet I am from Africa!


  124. Well, fleur, I think the ‘healthy’ African image is shaped by Western and Southern Africans, and by Afro-USians who tend to have the same providence. All the world saw of East Africans is famine photos from Ethiopia and fighiting in Somalia – even though those regions’ inhabitants stay reed-slim even when having access to three square meals a day. That said, a good Kenyan mate was stocky as, and a look at my onetime Ghanian fiance would have driven Barbie to drink.


  125. CONFIDENCE IN THE INDIVIDUAL IS WHAT PEOPLE LIKE! I AM A BLACK FEMALE AND GROWING UP WAS MADE FUN OF BY OTHER WHITE NEIGHBORHOOD KIDS FOR BEING BLACK. I AM AN ADULT EDUCATED THREE KIDS MARRIED TO A WHITE MAN THAT ADORES ME. EVERYWHERE I GO WHITE MEN TRY TO HIT ON ME. BLACK MEN HIT ON ME AS WELL, THEY GET ANGRY WHEN THEY SEE MY HUSBAND IS WHITE. I AM CONFIDENT OF WHO I AM!


  126. Hey sisters and brothers. This article is VERY interesting. I am a dreadlocked, dark-skinned Black sister (a little darker than India Arie’s range of color) and have to be honest. I will state loud and clear that I prefer and love the Black man to a point of preferring DARK-SKINNED brothers and fantasizing about dark-skinned Black babies. However, as a 24 y/o natural dark-skinned sister who is thin, but proudly African-shaped, I primarily get approached by White and/or Latino men. I’ll even get a little Asian attention from time to time. Many brothers, from what I have experienced throughout my life, tend to be Eurocentric in their views of beauty and prefer lighter skinned sisters with long weaves.


  127. on Wed 20 May 2009 at 00:53:51 mynameismyname

    Jessica,

    Out of curiousity, do you find that your preference for “dark skinned brothers” is shared by other black women?

    What nationality are these Latino guys? Spanish Caribbean? Mexican? South American?


  128. Hi mynameismyname,
    Personally, I feel that since the ‘Nubian King’ explosion of the early 90’s, that yes, the love for darker skinned brothers is much more evident than when my mama was little. My preference for dark-skinned brothers has always been via my Afro-Caribbean mother teaching me that darker skin is superior.
    To your second question, here in the NYC area, these Latino men tend to be Caribbean Latinos (Puerto Ricans, Cubans, etc.) On one occasion, I had a South American (Colombian) guy ask me out to dinner.
    On the ‘white men who have approach me’ side, I tend to be approached believe it or not by Jewish men. I have never been approached by an Italian; which is interesting in that the rumor is that many Italian men like sisters.


  129. This black and white thing seems to follow us wherever we go… Can’t we just stop stressing our beautiful selves? If a guy loves you so be it. I have noticed that white guys especially in South Africa go mainly for black ladies with even skin tone(irregardless of shade), well kept hair if you wanna call it that(weaves, long hair) mainly thin to medium weight.**But this does not mean if you are fat and short they will never approach you. I have noticed that the way you (as a lady)respond to a guy is very important…if you seem interested he will go ahead and ask you out but if you have the black/white attitude then nothing will happen.


  130. on Wed 20 May 2009 at 10:13:31 mynameismyname

    Hey Jessica,

    From my vantage point, which is influenced by location, most black American men could easily be called “dark skinned”. Would you agree?. So, you and all the other ‘sisters’ should be a kid in the candy store! LOL.

    These PR and Dominican men generally tend to be black or have West African-influenced features, no? Does this affect their attraction to other Afro-Caribbean women, I wonder?

    Oh, Jewish men, along with Italians and Middle Easterns, are known for their liking of chocolate pudding. LOL.


  131. I think the comment about white men liking women with white qualities other than their skin.. okay skin is the only thing that can be qualified as black or white. I think a better way to express that is that they go for a woman with a certain type of etiquette or by the way she carries herself which is more of a class or social classification than it is race.


  132. IM A WHITE MAN WHO HAS BEEN IN RELATIONSHIPS WITH BLACK WOMEN EVERY SINCE I WAS IN JUNIOR HIGH..AND IVE DATED LIGHT AND DARK SKINNED WOMEN -I PREFER THE DARKER SKIN SUCH AS MY BEAUTIFUL WIFE WHOM IVE BEEN WITH FOR OVER 20 YEARS!


  133. on Tue 26 May 2009 at 23:30:19 PrivateAlwasy

    Im a BW who is educated, career oriented, funny yet shy. My experience with WM is non-existent. A good friend of mine is tired of seeing me bomb out with brothers and their issues, she suggested to me to try dating a WM or even a African. My response to her was, “and where would I meet such men?” My job is not conducive to meeting that caliber of man and the internet hasn’t helped either. Can anyone suggest a starting point and pointers to me?


  134. hello PrivateAlwasy;

    I’m an African woman, a native of Africa to put it simple, I don’t understand what you mean by saying you are a Black Woman (BW) and have bombed out with brothers (brothers refers to black man (BM) is that not so? Or are you saying you have dated African American, not native Africans?

    For starters: Internet dating, your profile must draw attention, your profile picture (one with a smile on)must be lively and smart, your hair.
    Put yourself out there, you will be surprised at the response


  135. I’m white and from London. I have been out with black women light and dark they have all been girls who have just came here to England from Africa. I prefer black girls who are from Africa to black girls who are born here in England they have a much better attitude.


  136. perhaps you could come up with a list of black men that people like?


  137. Being a man beautiful women are interesting to me, but men are not, not in terms of their looks. So I will have to pass on that one, but thanks for the suggestion.


  138. Abagond, but don’t you do some of your research for black women using internet lists? The same could be done for the men.


  139. Well, I am a very light skinned Black woman with long auburn waist length hair. My facial features are petite, but I wear a size 14 and I have huge boobs. With that said, I cannot keep White men away from me! I like White men (especially in bed) and I have had a couple of White boyfriends. I get a LOT of attention from White men, but almost none from Black guys, which I find strange because I look like what Black men are “supposed” to prefer in a woman. I’m not complaining, but it is something I’ve noticed.


  140. I think it is the boobs.


  141. Yes – Alot of white guys seem to love boobs. Not all… my husband prefers a womens backside…says you dont buy a girl because of the headlights…iots more about the ride.


  142. i’m a white male from the US, never been out of the country. In the past I have dated a Mexican girl for a while but never had a black girlfriend.
    About 2 months ago I met one that I really connected with on a personal level. Her mother is African-American, her father is Brazilian. She is very medium dark color, I’d say…I feel silly saying that though.
    But it’s weird because other than us looking so odd together(I’m longhaired, tattooed, bearded, and of a very Irish or Scottist look) but she’s someone I felt like was the female version of me- the same wacky humor, the same opinionated way of approaching conversation, the same enthusiasm and spastic verbal patterns lol.

    We’re not really a couple as she lives a few states away but we’ve spent time together and I can honestly say that holding hands with her is the most romantic feeling I’ve ever had in all my years (I’m 40). I was even married to a white woman for 5 years(divorced 2 years back now) and this black woman makes me feel butterflies like I never felt in all those years of marriage.

    I have lived in the NYC/NJ metro area for over 10 years, and for 11 years worked at a place where out of about 30 workers, only maybe 5 were white and they were either Russian immigrant, NY jewish, or NY Italian, which is not what I am.

    I actually originally hair from a smalltown where there were no black people.

    But I never felt any sort of racial stuff ever in all my years.

    I think I am in love with this black woman. If she lives closer, I would want to be with her all the time. I try not to be a pest and call her all the time(she rarely answers) and I love when she calls just so I can hear her voice.

    I really feel like she is the female version of despite the race. I feel like I have more in common with her than any woman I’ve ever met.

    She’s someone I would start a family with. She’s just the most wonderful person I’ve met


  143. I am SO happy I found this post. I always wonder about how others view this situation. I LOVE dating white men!! Im a 24yr old single black girl, caramel complected. I’ve been in serious relationships with 4 white men(2 were European, 2 American), and 1 mexican. I have found it difficult to date white men that actually want something serious. I like younger and older men, but sometimes if Im flirting with an older white guy…they seem to think that I want money or something from them. And I dont, Im pursuing my own college degree. Im just attracted to older white men…. George Strait, Kevin Bacon, even Clint Eastwood are right up my alley. Ive noticed with American white men, the uneducated or blue collar are the kind that seem to hit on me the most. The upper class or educated kind do it also, but they only want bedroom action. I have had great success with european men, as well as a couple hispanic and asian men. I have only dated slim white men. I’ve never been hit on by any other body type. I’d love to find someone that is educated and hardworking, but its hard to know how to approach. I consider moving to a different state(Im in the south) to see if that helps. Most black people say I dont act black(proper english, listen to country music, do “white” things whatever that means), but I do have black features(full lips, curvy body, nose). I dont wear my hair natural though. Im also a Christian woman and Ive noticed that that seems to kind of hurt things too. I dont know if its because BM are more likely to be religious than WM, and those WM that are dont think its acceptable to date a BW.

    Anyway, great post, I think the generalazations are correct. Or at least it seems. There are always exceptions. I hope there are exceptions


  144. I’m a BW from San Francisco and I’ve noticed a lot of BW/WM pairings, more than BM/WW. My dad has told me he’s noticing more BW/WM couples also. None of the people in these pairings are a certain type or personality, there’s a lot of diversity so abagond I think you’re promoting a lot of unfair generalizations and only looking at one side of the situation.

    I’m learning that many white men are attracted to black women but are hesitant to act on it because they assume black women aren’t attracted to them. Not just white men but Asian men too. Perhaps you should explore black women who are attracted to white men and what types.

    I travel to Europe on and off and I’m noticing BW/WM pairings especially in France!


  145. I agree with you Scorpio.


  146. on Sun 7 Jun 2009 at 19:00:38 Luna d'Alaska

    I am an obviously BW. Growing up in southern Virginia I was taunted for being too dark.

    When I left home in the ’80’s I was amazed by the attention I got from white men.

    Over the years I have become comfortable with who I am. I no longer relax my hair. I have engaged in internet dating. Wen I write my profile I get one BM for every 20 WM respond to my posts.

    I have large breasts, a small waist and narrow hips. My aunt says, “The whole subject-verb-agreement-thing is your downfall” with BM.

    One BM told me he would rather “eat glass than to date a black woman”. You gotta love the Beltway.


  147. on Sun 7 Jun 2009 at 19:01:37 Luna d'Alaska

    oops. ADD stakes again.


  148. on Sun 7 Jun 2009 at 19:01:56 Luna d'Alaska

    strikes


  149. Luna–Eat glass?! Wow! I’m a BW and I’m not gonna lie I’m finding myself more and more attracted to men of other races, for some reason, I guess I’m becoming an equal opportunity dater—but eating glass rather than date one of us—thats pretty damn harsh. Wonder if he would’ve said that to his momma’s face.


  150. lm a south african, mid toned, mid size, educated but very easy going girl… Oh! Well my attraction varies with time. Ive dated 1euro and semi dated 1yanky! Lol! And abt 3 african guys. I dont get ths whole “acting black” business. Im an easy going with the “have just been shagged” look. If u get my drift with the most diverse friendships… I find that makes it possible to date across all the races. Right now i find confident mid age, mid size, white men attractive. The pool is a bit smaller esp with the country’s history. I just thnk all races need to be a lil open minded and learn to embrace each others uniqueness coz none is superior. You would be pleasantly surprised.


  151. I have noticed the above descriptions mentioned when I see a white guy with a black woman. Interestingly enough, I am black, a medium brown complexion and when I go out with friends they always point out to me how the white men and European men always stare at me and sometimes they approach me more than the black guys. I could never figure out why that was.


  152. on Mon 15 Jun 2009 at 00:08:22 William Zimmerman

    I believe that all of the Black Women listed above are absolutely gorgeous. I am white but I consider that all of a woman’s attributes are important. The most beautiful woman I ever met, of any race, was a black woman who was approx. 5’1″ 140 LBS with a traditional Afro Hairstyle, who wore glasses, and had the most wonderful personality and outlook on life one could have. This was 30 years ago and maybe I was asking too much at that time for a Black Woman to date a White man. I ask her out several times before she explain to me that her family and friends would consider it to be totally unacceptable. For me it was love at first meet. I believe I would have married her if she had given me the opportunity. There is not a day that goes by that I don’t think of her and relive the sorrow of her rejection. I still love her and what she stood for. Thanks for listening to an heart broken old man.


  153. It’s a pity this is an issue. No matter how jaded I try to be I am a romantic at heart. Love is so hard to find. We should nurture it at all costs. To hell with the idiots!


  154. I am a BW who has dated white men, Middle Eastern, East Indian and all races of men. I find that because I am 5′ 10 and 150lbs tall and thin, most BM are not attracted to me. I’m not ‘bootylicious’, I’m not busty, I’m dark brwn complexion and I have sisterlocks. WM love my hair, my size and my height. Most BM don’t like my hair, think I’m too skinny and that my boobs are not big enough. All men, regardless, go for the physical if they can have it. WM tend to look beyond that and want more and are willing to have it with a BW who is what I call “civil acting”. We all know there are women in all races who can act “street crazy”. WM are not intimidated if you have an education, or make a decent salary and I must admit that on a financial level, you have less drama to deal with a wonderful night out on the town does not necessarily mean you owe them sex. But then, you have few who missed this category. I think race should not be an issue, but we know in many cases it is. I prefer a WM who has been around African Americans and does feel comfortable with them. Middle Eastern men love African American people for the most part and don’t have color issues, but they are not fearful either (of anything). I don’t like WM who will date you, want sex, but would not want you to move next door.
    Just my 2 cents. Love this blog.


  155. on Wed 17 Jun 2009 at 04:39:41 LuhvuhsOfDeception

    Foolish lovers of the flesh. Common lovers of materialism vs. rare lovers of true enlightenment. All day. Everyday ego-drama.

    WW will always be the prettiest. G-d will always be the greatest far above all men, above all women, and above all things.


  156. God created sexual attraction to bond men and women. To deny one of God’s gifts is to deny our own humanity.

    We all seek love and acceptance. Why is that foolish? You are foolish to diminish what is.


  157. am kenneth from uganda i need a white lady or black +256754121129 my cell number


  158. I am a mixed race woman from the Caribbean maried to a white american man. His sister is married to a black man and have two beautiful children.

    I think that since these two white americans (brother and sister) spent their teen years here in the Caribbean, and have undoubtably grown accustomed to seeing black and mixed people and seeing interacial couples, their attraction to another race was not so difficult to explain away to themselves or others.

    In the Caribbean race is not so much of an issue. I find class to be the divider. On the islands where I live, mostly affuential people will date other rich, high society people. That these are mostly white people is just a by product of colonial days. If they were to meet other affluential people of another race it doesn’t really affect their choice.

    So, that is what I observe in my country. Having said that I went to College in the states. In the deep south where I witnessed things like KKK ralies and so forth. Of course coming from a truly racial melting pot like my country, this was a shock for me.

    At the time I was dating a man from my own country who was half white half chinese. Everytime he came to visit me at college we got a lot of attention. I will generalize the responses we got from BW, BM, WM, WW.

    BW: some curious looks but nothing negative.

    BM: absolute anger towards him and me. They would ask him what he was doing with one of their sistas. To which I would reply I am not their sista, I’m not from America. If anything I felt more of a connection to my boyfriend due to our shared culture.

    WM: two very seperate responses. On one have some WM looked a bit jealous or curious and had nothing negative to say. On the other hand (these were mostly racists rednecks) some WM had the nerve to ask my boyfriend what he saw in me. Which of course pissed him off.

    WW: Almost the same reaction as the BM. They looked at me like I was dirt and looked at him like he was crazy. I even overheard this one WW say “ewwww” as we walked by.

    My point here (sorry if this is rambling) is that it doesn’t just depend on how you look (I am carmel complected, have dark wavy hair, very asian looking eyes, high cheekbones and medium sized lips; back then I was very slim – 5’7″ 115 llbs)My point is that it really depends on the situation you put yourself in. For some people it is not feasible to change your location, but almost everywhere they is a place that is more condusive to meeting the type of person you like and places to go with the person you like that will not result in out right criticism and hate.

    I am not saying that anyone should have to put up with that and let others tell them where to go and who to see but for your own peace of mind and happiness, go get what you want and surround your self with as much positive as possible.

    This is one of the reasons that I decided to return to my country and live in peace. And I am so glad I found my husband and even though I do find most american men to be pleasant and my husband can act and sound as american as anyone else; I still appreciate that he spent as much time as he did in my culture and can hang with my firnds and family and not be out of place one bit.


  159. on Mon 22 Jun 2009 at 18:02:35 Ebony and Ivory

    I am a white man, married to a Black woman. She, and every other Black woman on the face of this earth, is beautiful beyond compare. No other race can even approach her beauty. My only regret is that I was not born a Black man.


  160. very poorly written – poor grammar , poor context , disorganize


  161. First off, I’m a bw. I don’t agree with parts of the original post. When you say facial features that are “not too black,” I assume you’re referring to a broad nose and full lips. Based on what I’ve seen, white men are not more likely to date/marry a black woman who has a thin nose and thin lips than someone who has a broad nose and full lips. (FYI to all those who are reading this: I have seen Africans who are neither mixed race nor from the Horn of Africa that have dark skin with thin lips and a thin nose, so I don’t think these features can be called European features as some like to call them.) I do agree that wm tend to go for bw who are not overweight, but they don’t have to be skinny, just a healthy, average body-size. When you say wm like bw who act “white,” it is unclear what you mean. I know there are some black people who believe that when a person values education and conducts themselves in a classy manner, the person is acting “white.” Hopefully, that is not what you are saying.

    I agree with the comment # 135 who wrote: “For starters: Internet dating, your profile must draw attention, your profile picture (one with a smile on) must be lively and smart, your hair.
    Put yourself out there, you will be surprised at the response”
    I would also add that women (all people, actually) should cultivate a joyful spirit in themselves that is thankful for God’s blessings. Thank God regularly for all His blessings, from the beauty of nature to the power of love and friendship to laughter to the awesome cuteness of babies to specifics in your own life. Smile wherever you go. Have a glass-is-half-full approach to life. If you have a nasty attitude, stop ignoring or justifying it and start working on it. Lead a purposeful, impactful life and take time to enjoy yourself with hobbies and other interests. Take time to work on your character so you can be the person God wants you to be. If you have self-esteem issues, start addressing them. If you are a person of good character, living a joyful, fulfilled life and you are at peace with yourself, you are more likely to attract quality men.

    Also, don’t forget to take care of your physical appearance-lose weight and get a physical makeover, if needed. Order the Breslin hair videos or something similar to learn how to do something different with your hair (braids, kinky twists, a weave) without spending a fortune at the salon.


  162. If you’re a black woman interested in dating interracially, there is a blog that will be helpful for you called “For The Sistas.” It also has posts on dating for black Christian women. Some of the posts are a bit long, but they aren’t any longer than the cover story of a magazine article and I really do think they’ll be useful to you. The blog address is ForTheSistas.blogspot.com. By the way, the blog also has information on dating men from Europe.

    Black women need to get off this black-man-only band wagon because, for too many, it obviously is not working. I’m not saying don’t date black men, just expand your options. Please forward this to other black women you know.


  163. I find this interesting.


  164. I find this interesting. Although I have never dated a black woman; I am attracted to those black women who have the same qualities as the white women I am attracted to.

    Those physical qualities are: petite, thinner face, thinner nose, higher cheek bones. The color does not matter; in fact there is a very dark black woman at work who has the features mentioned; I find her very attractive.

    I do not like the black women who have the big thick lips, the big noses and the rounder fleshy faces.

    Finally, the hair; I definately do not like the blank kinky hair.


  165. I’m a WM, married to a blue-eyed WW. I never dated a BW, though I do find some very attractive.

    Physically, skin tone and body type are not so important, but hair can be. I find frizzy, wiry, or kinky hair unattractive, and these appear more frequently on BW. On the postive side, many BW have beautiful facial bone structure and magnificent muscle tone.

    Behaviorally, I find some of the stereotypical traits of American black women sexually unappealing. For one, they tend to be TOO LOUD. For another, they often cross the line from assertiveness (a positive trait) to in-your-face obnoxiousness (a very negative trait). On the positive side, many BW smile and laugh easily.


  166. Stick, There are some things you MUST understand. A loud, obnoxious woman is not attractive any group.

    The hair-thing, Darlin’ is what God gave us. There is no denying what we’ve got. Even those of us with curly hair will hit a day when the frizz takes over. It part of the genetic make up.


  167. I hear you Stick, but that’s why we are black and not white, we are different. If you like a black woman you must remember she is a black woman and has a black woman’s hair. I cant say that I like white guys but I dont like the pale skin, that my dear will be immaturity of a mentality.


  168. A man who isn’t an ANTI-BW RACIST/HATER doesn’t take isolated negative traits that can apply to ANY woman of ANY race and generalize them to ALL BW.

    A man who isn’t an ANTI-BW RACIST/HATER treats BW as INDIVIDUALS and NOT as STEREOTYPES based on ANTI-BW LIES and MYTHS.

    A man who isn’t an ANTI-BW RACIST/HATER respects the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, FEMININITY, AND BEAUTY of BW instead of expecting them to conform to White/non-Black beauty standards.


  169. Straight up I am married to a black woman. And it really depends on where the white man was brought up and how much he knows about the black culture. All of my friends are black, asian or hispanic. However I am not what people tipically call a wanna bee. I am plain old me. I have never dated a white girl believe it or not. I find that an educated black woman that knows what she wants out of life is the sxiest thing in the world. Laters


  170. I am a BW in a relationship with a BM and I am not happy. Do you really want to know when I was happiest last? When I used to hang out with my white male friend. He was not my boyfriend but my friend. I used to find myself missing him because he and I were alot like. He understood me and though we would argue or agree on history, music,politics and various other subjects, I always felt like I could be myself. The BM that I am currently with does not make me feel that way. It is almost like my intelligence and education makes him feel uncomfortable. I have never tried to make him feel that way. I did everything possible to go out of my way to include him in my life. The type of job I have, I work around alot of whites. But I cannot take him to a function nor would he go. But it is always expected for me to go with him and fit in with his friends. I am saying all of this to say that I love this man to spite his faults but I am not happy. I realized that I want to open my horizons to others and explore and that may mean dating a WM or other. I am willing to try and see how it happens. I know that all BM are not like this but I have had my share of wrong kind. I just want to see what else is out there for me. So those who have not dated outside, give it try like I am going to do…..and check back


  171. Kitter, as a woman of “A Certain Age,”
    your problem is not with BM, but with your man. I was dating a WM who is very uncomfortable in the company of people in power position. It surprised me the first time we went to an office function — especially since he was a newspaper editor in Washington, DC.


  172. Thank you luna….I did not want to put that stigma on BM and hopefully that someone would reinforce that it was a “man” problem. That means I need to change my “man” problem.


  173. i myself am a 20year old white man from the uk ive alwise did like both black and mixed women, and to what BlackgirlUK said the guys who do only like the mixed girls probable wont end up with them people can sence that kind of attitude, myself ive grown up with a mixed race aunt who is half carribian and british and i know for a fact that he himself likes the dark women with african features as do i, ive also seen alot more darker looking women on childrens tv aswell, also remarking on the pictures up the top they all good looking women in my books but i do like venus williams and serna also faith oyegun, about the shape of black women i like them curvey and thats women period, as for the hair myself the ethnic look is good.


  174. I from London and i hardly see BW/WM couple but the other way around i see all the time even in uni i don’t see it that much maybe because i’m not old enough to notice that much(19) i need to move to Germany or France to find myself a nice white man, (i’m black by the way)


  175. I agree with Indie girl comment that I rarely see BW/WM couples in London. I’m always suprised when I do come across one. Like I’ve said before BW in the UK suffer from the same beauty standard issues that BW in the USA suffer from.


  176. ive only ever seen a few couple of BW/WM myself but i live in cardiff so there are probabley less here, i thought london would have alot more but i have seen a couple of BW/WM on TV latley on house decorating programs must be more people in germany and france who do it, as of the beauty standed thing probably do suffer from it but white guys who like women like mainstream women probably will only like some women, but there are guys in ever country who do myself and a couple of my other friends if you live in london you need to meet some german guys they like there BW, i alwise thought till now that there wont many BW in UK who do like white men lol.


  177. thanks BlackgirlUK
    i also heard that white men in Ireland in some parts anyway like black women. i always thought they were the most racist. lol but there was an irish guy in my class who was nice.


  178. i heard alot of irish guys like BW i think the scots do to ive heard that some BW are against the idea ive seen alot of comments BW from the U.S.A but i didnt know about the UK. what do your friends think of the whole BW/WM idea?


  179. I am really happy that I came across this blog. I am biracial; my 55 yo father is WHITE (if you want to dig deeper, his ancestors were swedish and finnish) and my 50 yo mother is AFRICAN (she came from Uganda). My father thinks black women are the most beautiful ones of the world. He has liked them ever since he met Diana Ross at a concert. Even though he liked Diana Ross, my father loves the darkest black women with the most African features the best. He loves his women literally black (lol)! He doesn’t think Beyonce is attractive, he says “she is too light!” I live in Minnesota in the USA. Our state is claimed to be the most interracial one in the country, and that is true. But the interracial couples are mostly BM/WW or WM/AW. I don’t see many WM/BW. I go to a suburban high school (I’m 17) and it’s hard going there. Whenever dances come around, I get sad because I know no one will ask me or other black girls. This really takes a toll on my self-esteem. The messed up part is that the black men (there are probably 10 black guys and 30 black girls) at my school only date white girls and a lot of them act like the stereotype of a black man (not doing well in school, playing basketball, shunning black women, etc). Sorry to be stereotyping but the black men at my school are how most black men in Minnesota act unless they are come from an educated family or they’re biracial or they are african..etc. OF COURSE I know there are some exceptions but the truth of the matter is.. a lot of the black men reinforce the stereotype.
    From what I have noticed around here… if I ever see a white man dating a black woman she is usually biracial. I am 5’9” and 135 LBs: I’m tall and thin. My looks can be compared to Halle Berry, I have a caramel skin color and I have finer facial features (I have smaller lips and a smaller nose)..people say I look ethiopian. I wear my hair naturally and I get compliments from white girls but black girls hate my hair. I don’t think men like my natural hair too much because when I get my hair straightened or braided in singles I get 10X more attention. So I am not quite sure if white men like the whole natural look. I feel like white men were looking at me a lot when I had it in braids that resemble European hair than when it was in a FRO. I really don’t like America (or maybe just Minnesota) because I feel like women have to be close to European beauty in order to be considered beautiful. Basically my whole life I wanted to be any other race except black. I feel like the media really puts down black beauty because they don’t advertise TRUE black beauty. Famous black american women tend to be light skinned or have light eyes or have long hair (or long weave, haha). Think of the 3 most famous black female celebs: Halle Berry, Beyonce, Tyra Banks (I may be off). Notice that most of these women look biracial. This sums up the sad truth of America. To be a sucessfully famous black female, you have to be as close to white as possible. If you have dark skin, you must balance it off with small features (Look at the model IMAN). If you have African features, you must be light skinned (Beyonce). This country we are in makes us all damned. It is constantly telling us that we are not attractive. And one of the BIGGEST PROBLEMS are how “our” men don’t love us. Think about it, our issue of feeling unattractive because of the media wouldn’t be such a problem if our black men told us we were beautiful and dated black women. I wouldn’t care about black men dating interracially IF THEY DATED WOMEN OF THEIR OWN RACE MUCH MORE THAN ANY OTHER RACE (just like other people’s races). Black men are constantly dating outside their race and shunning black women. And when they do date black women, she is light skinned or has fine features. Look at Black male singers’ music videos, there are so much more latina and very light skinned black women. My jaw drops in shock when I see a clip of a dark woman. The pathetic part is, these black male singers usually are dark but they won’t date dark women or even have the courtesy to put them in their music video. And many of the black artists will even put lyrics like “She was light skinned” or “Light eyes” or “Long real hair”, etc….. and face it, most of these features are things black women don’t have. When you watch black female singers’ music videos, you will notice that they almost always have black men in their videos. This shows that black women want black men; too bad black men don’t want black women. It is sad…..
    There are so many issues in the black community that have to be dealt with. But this issue isn’t going to go away. This is why it is SO IMPORTANT FOR BLACK WOMEN TO BE OPEN TO INTERRACIAL DATING. I know so many black women who are hesitant to date white men and this is why they are still single. Love is not a color and you don’t need to date black men to be satisfied. Look, black men are satisfied with out you; why can’t you be?! Also, most white men aren’t attracted to the stereotypical black women… ghetto “in your face”, obese, uneducated, ignorant, etc. These qualities aren’t attractive to any race!! I feel like a lot of Minnesota black women are mean and scary and unattractive to white men. Many black women need to start taking care of themselves! 70% of African-American WOMEN are obese! That’s crazy!! Black women need to get up… stop eating and instead of worrying about your weave getting messed up, go for a run! And many times white men are afraid to approach black women because of stereotypes, so it is your job to look approachable. Smile, laugh, flirt, and talk to them. Men don’t always have to approach you, you can be the one to approach them.
    I have some questions for people on here:
    1. Where in America are men into black women?!
    2. How is Europe different from America? Are you saying there is less tension between black women and white men when it comes to dating? What parts of Europe are best for this? Is it true that the men like the black women darkest?
    3. What can black women do to be more approachable to white men?

    Thanks!!


  180. Avaan,
    I appreciate your candid and thorough post regarding your observations of how BW are treated by WM and BM in American society. I and other BW on this blog have shared similar negative experiences like the ones you have described.

    The only thing that I disagree with you is your conclusion that BW are the ones who NEED to “make themselves more approachable to WM” or that it is a BW’s “job to look approachable”.

    On this blog, there have been many discussions (see- Why so few WM marry BW, BW that WM like, Are BW ugly or is it Racism, etc.)about why MOST WM in America don’t establish relationships with BW as they do with NON-BW. What has become very clear is that American society has historically promoted ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE that has affected/continues to affect the way BW are viewed/and treated by WM (and NON-WM).

    Also, MOST WM in America who claim to be attracted to BW, allow ANTI-BW COWARDICE or ANTI-BW RACISM to influence whether they choose to have relationships with them. There are American WM who have posted here that, even when they are attracted to BW, they are AFRAID to ask them out for FEAR of what OTHERS may say/think.

    Although it may SEEM as if the reasons why BW are rejected are related to SOME BW being overweight, having an “attitude”, or being “ghetto”, the REAL reasons BW are rejected have to do with ANTI-BW RACISM in American society. If you doubt this, observe how many NON-BW are overweight, have nasty attitudes, or behave in a low class/”ghetto” manner, and STILL have NO PROBLEM finding men of EVERY race who will date and/or marry them.

    Also, observe how many BW are beautiful, friendly, have excellent personalities, are financially successful, are OPEN to dating men of ALL races, and treat EVERYONE with respect and are still alone, ignored, and treated as if they are INVISIBLE, SECOND CLASS WOMEN.

    You are correct to note that the disrespectful, demeaning, degrading way MOST BM treat BW is also a MAJOR contributor to why BW are devalued/discriminated against by MOST men of ALL races. It is disgusting to see how MOST BM go out of their way to trash the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and HUMANITY of BW- the women who MOST resemble their mothers, grandmothers, and sisters. I know of no other race of men who is doing this and the ADDITIONAL NEGATIVE effect this has on the image of BW can’t be ignored.

    I have been most encouraged by the EUROPEAN WM who have stated that they are in relationships with BW and consider BW to be as attractive and worthy of being dated and/or married as NON-BW. I’ve learned that European WM from Germany, some parts of England, France, Ireland, Italy, Scottland, Sweden, and some Eastern European countries are attracted to and open to dating and/or marrying BW.

    Please visit the sites noted below for more info. on Black Beauty appreciation and Pro-BW/WM Interracial Relationships and Marriages. I hope you are encouraged by these PRO-BW blogs.

    -Beautiful Black Woman-Thoughts Of A White B’woy -Swedish guy’s blog devoted to promoting the beauty of ALL types of Black beauty)
    -Sara’s Blog – See pics of a variety of BW in IRR’s or marriages
    -Evia’s Blog – See pics of a variety of BW in IRR’s or marriages


  181. on Wed 15 Jul 2009 at 22:06:28 mynameismyname

    This may seem silly to point out but why in the world do people on the internet keep calling Tyra Banks “light skinned”, “biracial” and “mixed-looking”????????

    Is there something about that woman that I’m overlooking?

    Tyra Banks looks very characteristic of not only everyday black American women but many native West African women.

    To say otherwise, is to be ill-informed.

    And yes, Lynette, black women up North have no problem finding black mates either. So it may not just be a regional thing. I can use my eyewitness accounts of an event this weekend that can back up this reality.


  182. on Wed 15 Jul 2009 at 22:10:22 mynameismyname

    Lynette,

    After reading Avaan’s comment again, I can see how her perspective is skewered. She lives in Minnesota! That state is the interracial romance haven of the world.

    Some people use their enviornment to color their view of the world. That’s only natural. But to impose that onto the entire world is not logical or realistic.

    Also, ask an everyday American to name a famous black women.

    You know who they’re going to say.

    OPRAH.

    How European and “white-featured” does she look?


  183. Avaan,

    First of all I don’t really see how Bee, tyra and Halle look Bi-racial?
    Have you ever seen Tyra pic’s when she started modelling? without nose job and bleaching skin(this does apply to all of three) , to me she looks like someone from Rwanda or Somali( LOL).

    70% of Black women are obese??? I know plenty of Black women who stay in shape, try to eat healthy and exercise ( I am one of them,I workout 5 times a week)

    About Europe( I lived in France, Italy, Switzerland and now in UK( international gal LOL), for what I have witnessed UK,France, Portugal and Germany BW date/marry white men (and other)in high number.
    I know some find BW women more family oriented, hotter??? and exotic.
    In EU people are more mixed, socially speaking. So that makes things easier.

    They like all kind of women but it s true also like what they called the “true” black woman( to them that’s means the darkest one)

    and finally there are still some good Black men who like Black women( actually many of them), and you know it rather difficult to find someone for women of any race.


  184. Hey laromana! Thank you for your response. You are right, it is not all the black woman’s fault.

    Hi, mynameismyname! I do think Tyra Banks looks biracial. She has green eyes and her skin color is caramel at her darkest. What do you mean by my views are “skewered”?

    “Some people use their enviornment to color their view of the world. That’s only natural. But to impose that onto the entire world is not logical or realistic.”
    Are you referring to me? I’m confused. What are you suggesting me to do? Are you saying that Minnesota isn’t the whole country? But it sure seems like it after reading the comments….


  185. I noticed some of black women on this blog, when they start describing themselves, they begin with them the skin color is and their features, maybye I am wrong but I find it revealing.


  186. I meant they begin with their skin color


  187. Hey Nubiah!
    Okay I just looked at this pic of tyra: http://fileserver.glam.com/glampress/beauty/slideshows/natural/Tyra-Banks-No-Makeup.jpg
    You’re right.. she doesn’t look biracial. But her skin color is like one. And Halle Berry IS biracial, so how can she not look biracial? After looking at this picture of Beyonce, I don’t really think she looks biracial other than she is light: http://www.makemeheal.com/news/images/beyonce-knowles-breast-augmentation.jpg

    Yeah, look up the statistic for obese black AMERICAN women..it’s somewhere in that ball park.

    I am REALLY encouraged by the rate in IR in Europe.!!! It gets me excited, lol. Do you think I should move their when I grow up? Seriously.


  188. Avaan,

    Being light skinned doen t mean you are mixed and to me Tyra, Bee and halle are not light skinned and I truly think if she never said her mother was white nobody will see in her the so-called bi-racial look.

    Plenty black people have the same skin color and features.

    And I know some of them with green eyes( like my brother who appear to be 100% African)

    You can see the post on the most beautiful black women( I think) , I put some women from Africa with a variation of skin color, actually one appear to be lighter than Bee, Tyra and Halle and I can put some light/darke skinned with green eyes and they are all 100% african.

    and if u want to move in EU, I am about to move in NY in couple of months,so we can swap our life.LoL

    I think the first think u have to do is to learn how to love yourself and being more confident, that will make a huge difference in your relationship with men(any race)I know easy to say but not impossible to do.


  189. How come you are leaving EU? What’s so special in NY? lol.


  190. I am working as Makeup artist and hairdresser for tv/mag/theatre and catwalk………. ( so now you can understand why I travel a lot), I need and want to be the best(LOL) so I have to developed my skills and gain more work experience , that’s means going to different places,meet a lot of people and learn from them . That’s pretty good bcz I am fuent french( mother tongue), italian and I am in the process of learning English.


  191. It has been said that it is telling that many of us start with describing ourselves by skin color. I get the distinct impression that I am am probably one of the oldest people commenting.

    I grew up in Virginia during a time when black was not so beautiful. I was teased as a child by other black children because my skin is the color of chocolate milk. It was a time when beauty was lighter than a paper bag.

    When I began to travel in the late 70’s in Europe was when I was told I was beautiful.

    It’s sad to say it wasn’t a young BM was not the first to appreciate the richness of my complexion and the quickness of my wit.

    I don’t live with resentment toward BM. There a lot of good BM out there. I just haven’t met many who share my varied life experiences. That is more important than the politics of race.


  192. on Thu 16 Jul 2009 at 05:38:58 mynameismyname

    Wow, Nubiah, I’m really beginning to think that we share the same mind!

    In regards to comment #188, I made the same EXACT observation some while ago! Wow.


  193. on Thu 16 Jul 2009 at 05:40:02 mynameismyname

    Lynette,

    How was the Essence Festival this year? My cousin went. She had a blast.


  194. mynameismyname: Look at #187. I am extremely curious about your answer.


  195. i like the post. very interesting, and even more so, the comments. i’ve chosen to miss out on the dating of white men. i am also thick, and though educated, very aggressive and proud of being black. i totally understand why a white man has never tried to pursue me. i would keel over. i love the comments of the white males who date black women. it interests me that so many exist. i hope to write on a related subject soon. i welcome your insight.


  196. Avaan,

    as someone whos lived in the EU it depends where you go but Id say (probably not so much UK as France and Germany) oddly though its easy to date interracially, there is a lot of discrimination to hiring and advancing people of color professionally. As a mixed race and American this will probably not affect you as much, but it might bother you. Also its tough to get the right to work in the EU, american or otherwise. IF you are just looking to date interracialy try NY, its much easier than going all the way to Europe.


  197. on Thu 16 Jul 2009 at 23:34:59 mynameismyname

    Lynette,

    I’m glad that you (and your stomach-LOL) had a good time. I’ve never had the pleasure of visiting New Orleans or the state of Louisiana. Although I did consider attending Tulane University when I was a little younger.

    Avaan,

    In response to your questions, Nubiah and Lynette pretty much answered it. Saying that a black person with lighter or colored eyes or a skin tone that is lighter than coal looks “biracial” (which is?- what two “races”? is the term “biracial” now exclusively meant for black/white mixture?) is a tad misinformed. Nubiah pretty much said what I was going to say on that matter.

    Minnesota is but one state. Your perceptions are real but to impose them on the entire world is very specious. That’s what I meant with that comment. Personal ancedotes are very valuable but at the end of the day, they don’t tell the full picture.


  198. on Fri 17 Jul 2009 at 13:04:38 Anton Selessi

    Your statement: “Both black men and white men in America are affected by white ideas of female beauty, but they apply them to black women differently.” Is far to general and a half-truth at best. I’m mixed-race Black & (White/FRENCH) and I see beauty according to my inner-chord of what I see as senuous and beautiful. It could simply be mannerisms; her hair; skin tone (NOT COLOR). And I find some features acceptable for Black women but not acceptable in White women. For example I find a plump, (not fat) White woman attractive, but I don’t like plumpness in a black woman. I like them both with significant body hair. I HAVE A HAIR FETTISH..But I like blach women with short hair, and white women with long hair. Both women must be exceptionally clean, but the lack of a natural NON-offensive body odor is a turn-off…in other words, a little perfume plus a little BO can be a turn on…She must smell like a woman…not a newborn baby! Both must have a sense of humor and a singular sense of identity, not tribal or clannish….she must be the authur of her own likes and dislikes. Beauty is not a necessity, because sometimes beauty is all she’s got and I need more! I guess my taste of beauty comes from my extensive traveling over the years and is definitely not based on a white man’s idea.


  199. am 25 years old black African and am seriously looking for a white man and am sure he will not regret


  200. I am an educated professional white man and find beauty in all races. Regarding Sade, I definitely think she is hot. Whitney Houston is gorgeous. Education and class are important. The “Yo” factor is definitely a turn-off. Regarding any race, stupid, uneducated, street, profanity and loud are out. I have never been attracted to “thick” or fat women of any race. I prefer slim and fit. I like a woman with full lips and round bottom. When Chahka Khan was younger and a lot thinner, she was very sexy. Regarding skin tone – it doesn’t matter, I have been attracted to dark, medium, and light skinned – But smooth soft skin is important. Beyonce – no. Kelly Rowland – YES. Regarding the hair, I prefer more natural. Over processed, over flat-ironed, and too much “product” is a turn-off. The woman has got to be able to dance and move her body well. I have more to say, but that is all for now.


  201. Hi Peter,
    Why don’t you like Beyonce?
    Also, when you say “natural hair” do you mean afros and curly hair? Or do you like the hair straight?


  202. Avaan,

    From a visual standpoint Beyonce looks good and she is a good entertainer, but whenever I have heard her speak she just doesn’t sound very smart. Yes, when I say “natural hair”, I do mean afros and curly hair (very hot) – but don’t get me wrong, if a black woman’s hair is straight it can still be very attractive particularly if it is her natural hair type. Weaves – in general no. Hair plastered straight and flat – no.


  203. Beyonce is mixed. her mother is creole- africna and french. her father is from Bahamian background centerd in Long Island,which is made up of people of mixed ancestry: African, European and Caribe Indian (my step-fathers people and he is related to the knowles as well as rick fox).

    Look at West and Central Africans from whom AA people descend from, they don’t have green eyes or copper skin or narrow features. So AA who look like this is mixed.Go to Belgium, you’ll see. Yes some of those narrow features tyra has resmeble Somalis. Tyra is mixed


  204. Black women, bi-racial women, and all women for that matter can be beautiful in their own way. At least for me there is no stereotype of the ideal woman. From an appearance and attraction point of view, I personally have observed extremely attractive women from all racial groups. I just prefer and seem to be more attracted to gorgeous black women and black/mixed race women. Being a white male (blue eyes and brown hair), I am not sure if a black woman even finds me attractive, if she doesn’t give me a sign, it could be just be a nice smile for me to approach her and introduce myself. I don’t know what it is, but beautiful black women just send a wonderful electricity and chemical reaction through my body. The greatest serious loves of my life have been black women and I will tell anyone that.


  205. well this just because socialists control the country in a great degree. Everyone is very prejudice. second, i don’t know what your point is, but those women in the 2nd picture are very much more attractive. I think you deal with only the shallow aspect of this. i don’t know where you get your info from.


  206. There are some very beautiful black women out there I would date a black woman if she was willing to date me. Maybe I am wrong but I feel most black women prefer black men. In my college class there is a beautiful black woman and she is a B#@ch! Makes me wonder if she dislikes white guys. Yes, many white men have done things over American history and I will leave it at that.


  207. Tim, all women want to be treated with respect. If this young woman in your class act like a bitch — maybe she is. You wouldn’t make excuses for bad behavior if she were white.

    If you show your sincere interest in a BW she may surprise you. She may just say, “Yes!”


  208. Tim,

    If you think a woman is beautiful – tell her! Sometimes women act “b#@chy” as a defense. Once you get past these initial issues you may find that she is not only a beautiful woman, but a delicious black woman as well. Approach her – you must.


  209. I would love to date a black man, but as it goes they are mostly in prison, poorly educated or with white women. I live in WA and the state is 80% white.

    Most of the white men I come across only want to date a black woman for the Jungle Fever experience. They aren’t serious, just want to have sex with a sista because they are curious.

    One white guy asked me, “is it true black women are really wild in bed”. I told him I didn’t know because I’d never had sex with one. I’m always skeptical of white men and their intentions. I find them staring at me all the time, but I don’t encourage them. If they want to date me, they’d have to show me they’re serious or I won’t waste my time being a white man’s fantasy f**k.


  210. I used to run into that when I was younger. At 47 most WM in my age group are more self-assured. They are usually divorce and just looking for someone to spend the second half of their lives.

    I used to say, “I am no one’s test kit!” You can tell the WM who want to make broad assumptions about BW from one experience. Trust you judgment. Nice guys show themselves. Scum is easily washed away.


  211. Janet and Luna,
    I totally agree with your mindset that if a WM/NON-BM is truly interested in a relationship with a BW, he should approach her in a respectful manner, not like she’s a prostitute.


  212. You know, I have got to say that I just happened upon this blog and this is a really, REALLY interesting subject! This is something that’s never really talked about that I’ve always wondered about. I am a brown-skinned BW, tall, hw proportionate, considered “thick” by both black and white men because of large breasts and somewhat big butt. I have always attracted men of all races, but I have noticed some differences in the type of man that I’m more likely to attract depending on how my style changes. For instance, when my hair is long and curly and my skin has gotten a shade or two lighter from the winter weather, mainly black me and hispanic men approach me. White men smile, but don’t really say much. BUT, once when my hair was completely natural and in a small afro, black men looked at me as if I had stabbed them in the chest with a dagger, lol. The main thing I would hear was, ” Wow. What happened to your hair,” which was always accompanied by the same jaw on the ground, wide-eyed “you looked really jacked up” kind of look. Or there was the “enlightened” black man with the beautiful locs in his hair who was proud of his heritage who would greet me with the starry-eyed respectful, “Hello my sista” or “Hello my queen, ” but that wasn’t very often unfortunately. The WHITE men, however, really seemed to admire my look. Once at a gas station, I was standing at line and caught a really good-looking white guy staring at me. And even when I gave him the “what the hell are you staring at” look, lol, he just smiled and continued to stare. I was starting to feel really uncomfortable because I’d already gotten more than my share of scrutiny over my new ‘do,’ but he caught me at the door, held the door open and said with the most admiringly sweet smile, ” I apologize for staring, but I just had to tell you that you are an absolutely beautfiful woman!” In that one moment I felt so flattered that a white man could acknowledge my natural beauty, but at the same time, hurt and disheartened that black men could see the same thing that he saw. I also have a cousin who is very dark-skinned, wears no makeup, and has her hair in a very natural afro who is married to white guy. So that definitely seems to be standard that white men seem to be more attracted to in an “I’d date you” kind of way to black women who are completely natural….very, very interesting!


  213. Hi. I’m black and my white boyfriend says you’re a bit off target. He, for one, wishes I had more of an ass, not less. He’s constantly telling me to PUT ON SOME WEIGHT! I cannot take his verbal ‘buse much longer! HELP MEEEEEEE

    ———————————-
    No, seriously. My bf doesn’t really fit your descriptions of white men in America at all. Granted, I am thin, and I do act in a way that some would not “not black enough” or whatever, but…as he puts it, he’s dated some “ghetto bitches.” Some bitches that could probably beat you up.
    :)


  214. I’m sorry about that last comment…my boyfriend told me to put it. He’s crazy.

    I did like your post.


  215. I see a lot of deferent things here so I would like to chime in. As for body type I real dont care I do like a BW that is not skin and bones come on what is wrong with you? that is just as unheathy and supper fat. Skin color has very little to do with anything(for me at least) Dark/light to me it is all the same. What matters is do you click? can you talk as I feel the if you can’t tell each other whats wrong you have already damned the relationship. I myself dont want a BW that looks like she just got done shooting a rap vid. If anything I would think that most BW would take those girls as a slight against themselves. I feel that most BW are not like what I see in those vids. Come on not all are what I would call “slutty”. We have to think that a lot of WM may not be around BW so all they know is what they see on any crap show you see on mtv or others, That hurts all of us no matter what color you are. My current lady is dark skined and man I love it. But then I love HER not caring what color she is, after aa isnt that what matters most? Because when all is said and done it is ” us against the world” As for those WM that would never be with a BW. all I can say is “GOD dont make mistakes”


  216. Bill said,
    If anything I would think that most BW would take those girls as a slight against themselves. I feel that most BW are not like what I see in those vids. Come on not all are what I would call “slutty”. We have to think that a lot of WM may not be around BW so all they know is what they see on any crap show you see on mtv or others, That hurts all of us no matter what color you are.

    laromana said,
    We definitely need MORE WM/NON-BM who respect BW and are in relationships with them to express the kind of sentiment that Bill has in his comments.

    If ALL WM/NON-BM who care about BW joined together with them in opposing ANTI-BW LIES, MYTHS, AND STEREOTYPES, it would help DESTROY the images that lead to negative attitudes/treatment of BW.


  217. Hey great blog here. Just came across it tonight.

    I’m a white American male who finds black women very attractive. I personally prefer medium to light skin tone black women. Everyone has their preferences. Like when I date a white woman, if the option was available, I prefer a brunette over a blonde any day.

    I think the reason you may not see more while male with black women couples (in America that is) is because of stigma. Lots of racial baggage that is a major turnoff for many. Also, when white men date or marry out, they go for Asian and Hispanic women a majority of the time. Hence, which is why you don’t see more WM/BW couples.

    And some white men and black women don’t know if the other would date out, pertaining to being interested in one another. It’s kind of like a deadlocked situation, until someone grows the balls (men I would hope) and break through that brick wall and make it happen, the interests will remain sealed.

    Peace


  218. I know many WM/BW couples, and am myself a BW married to a WM. I have dated WM in the past, and have been told that while WM do not generally “go for” BW, it is not because of a lack of desire. From what I have been told, WM hesitate to include BW in their dating/marrying pool due to posible social repercussions or fear of how their family will react. In addition, although my own husband denies it, I suspect that some WM may have an issue with the possibility of having Black children even though they love the black woman.

    However, I think that another major barrier to WM and BW forming romantic relationships is society always telling BW that WM do not want them and do not find them attractive. On the other side, when WM are constantly bombarded with this message that WM don’t like BW,I believe they actually feel embarrassed and conflicted about being attracted to women who apparently have no value. It’s like,society is asking them “can’t you do better than a BW”, and then they go through life with that sort of secret desire or sense of regret for not going with their heart. The fact of the matter is that WM find BW as attractive as they find any other group of women. That is not to say that all white men are attracted to all black women, but by the same token all white men are not attratced to all white women either. In other words, WM are just as attracted to BW as BM are to WW. It’s just that BM are more free to go after WW because there is less social stigma, their black familes are more open to white people, and it’s rare that a black man has lost a job or social staus because he was married to a WW.

    And for a BW, when WM actually do have the confidence to approach, she often misses the signals because she cannot fathom that a WM is actually hitting on her because we have been told that we are not as attractive as other groups of women–much less to a WM. So a WM has to be really overt in his romantic overtures to a BW–and in my experience WM are just not that overt–at least with BW. Maybe because they fear rejection as they have often heard that BW are not interested in WM, as they supposedly do not possess the qualities associated with BM–physical attractiveness, strength, toughness and sexual prowess. That’ just not true. BW are very much attracted to WM.

    By the way, I am a black woman married to a white man. I am 5’3 and weigh about 170 lbs. I have a skin tone between Garcelle and Gabrielle. I have a large behind and big breasts. I am an attorney, and I have always worn my hair in a variety of styles. When my husband met me I was in the courtroom, and had a straight bob. By the time we had our first date, I had a long weave that went to my butt. Then I had a curly look and then braids–which he loved the most and begs me to get in the future. Finally, although I am an “educated” woman, I am by no means “white-acting”. He actually loves it when I go into that sort of sassy mode that is sometimes associated with black women. But at the same time, I had one white boyfriend that hated braids and the whole “sister girl” attitude. Point being that WM like BW in general, but most WM are not attracted to a certain type. After all, NY is not the world…I live in Atlanta.


  219. LOL. You are right about NY. That is why I said that, because I understood there might be differences by region or country.


  220. I have been reading the many comments and I want to state a few things.

    @Black Persia.

    You make some good points……but….the following comment has me worried:

    ” Maybe because they fear rejection as they have often heard that BW are not interested in WM, as they supposedly do not possess the qualities associated with BM–physical attractiveness, strength, toughness and sexual prowess. That’ just not true. BW are very much attracted to WM.”

    Not trying to be rude, as I am sure you mean well, but, with the words “physical, attractiveness, strength, toughness and sexual prowess: only one image came to mind:

    -stud

    That so many Black men have bought into the stereotype that all Black men are born athletes/sex machines is to me the worst stereotype ever thrown upon Black men, and that that stereotype has taken on mythic proportions to where that is what so many non-Black men think of Black men.

    Not saying that you are stating that, but, the myth of the over-sexed Black man is just that—a myth. Black men are no more better in bed that any other race of men. Any White man who believes such lies has some serious issues that he needs to deal with pronto.

    But, that Black men have been saddled with the big-no-stop-sex-machine myth for so many centuries, has made them into an image of walking life-support-systems-for-a-penis.

    And I say to men of other races, especially White men, Black men are more than a penis attached to a body.

    For a White man to worry about what a Black man is or isn’t doing says much about that White man. The said White man can only tackle what he can handle in his life and not worry about how he will measure up to any other man—even if that is a Black man.

    As for strength, sexual prowess, etc.—those are things found in many men of other races. But, the old stereotype that all Black men have huge penises says not only a lack of regard for Black men—it says also a lack of regard towards Black women.

    For if a Black man is supposed to have a huge penis, then does it not follow that a Black woman has a huge vagina to accommodate the supposed huge penis of a Black man?

    Not stating that you said this, but, when I read the words you used to describe what some White men may think of Black men, then and there is a stereotype that maligns so many Black men to this day.

    As for sexual “prowess”.

    Depends how how the supposed man (regardless of race/ethnicity) “listens” to the woman in his life.

    A huge penis never kept a woman in a man’s life.

    A tenderness and consideration for her feelings, desires, wants, and needs is what often keeps a woman.

    “From what I have been told, WM hesitate to include BW in their dating/marrying pool due to posible social repercussions or fear of how their family will react. In addition, although my own husband denies it, I suspect that some WM may have an issue with the possibility of having Black children even though they love the black woman.”

    Agreed.

    “It’s like,society is asking them “can’t you do better than a BW”, and then they go through life with that sort of secret desire or sense of regret for not going with their heart. The fact of the matter is that WM find BW as attractive as they find any other group of women.”

    Agreed.

    We will all regret not the many things we DID in life (God knows we all make mistakes), but, it will be the things we all DID NOT DO, that will cause many lamentations in our old age.

    The following comment:

    “It’s just that BM are more free to go after WW because there is less social stigma, their black familes are more open to white people, and it’s rare that a black man has lost a job or social staus because he was married to a WW.”

    I will agree with you that White men fear losing STATUS more than anything. The loss of a job would be harder because there would have to be evidence that the man was not doing his job and was in a position to be fired/terminated. Does not mean that back-stabbing haters cannot work to get that man fired—-but, loss of status—-yes, that is one major reason that can keep White men from marrying a Black woman.

    Too many White men worry about what family/friends/neighbors will think—-instead of just getting on with the business of life—-getting a good woman into your life, no matter what race she comes in.

    Then again, that type of mentality is found more in American White men than in say, Scandinavian men.

    As for Black families “being more open to white”…..

    I would disagree.

    There are some Black families who do not wish to see their children married to a White person/or person of another race. Not all Black people are publicly vocal about their displeasure in having a son/daughter marry a white.

    Does not make the said Black family members monsters, but, some family members (Black father, Black mother), do not want to see their child married to a White person. (Just stating what I have seen and heard.)

    But, on the other hand, most Black people are more open-minded IF the intended White prospective future son/daughter-n-law is going to be just a good spouse to their adult child.

    Rare, and practically unheard of is the Black parent who disowns or cuts off all ties to their Black adult child.

    As for the comparison to BM/WW and WM/BW—the historical components of both types of relationships differ tremendously.

    Yes, through the centuries, many White men have been “overt” with BW, when they could play run-and-go-hide-and-seek-and-find-the-salami”—-but, when it came to publicly professing love and respect for a Black woman, then the White men (the majority of them) were no where to be found.

    Makes me wonder where did all of that “overtness” dissipate to in the 21St Century?

    Then again, even in 2009, with all the disinformation floating around about both groups (WM & BW), it is no surprise that both groups walk around in tip-toe fear and trepidation with each other.

    I will agree with you that many Black women are attracted to White men. They see handsome White men, interesting White men, responsible White men, many of whom they would love to spend their lives with.

    BW just want a good man in their lives.

    @Azrazyel.

    “It’s kind of like a deadlocked situation, until someone grows the balls (men I would hope) and break through that brick wall and make it happen, the interests will remain sealed.”

    Most true.

    Would be nice if AMERICAN White men can grow some balls and not worry about what others think.

    Men are the chasers, not women, and if that is archaic thinking, then so be it.

    A woman knows when a man is interested in her.

    And White have no one who is stopping them from approaching a Black woman.

    Except THEMSELVES.


  221. @ Ann for the most part, I agree with what you have said. It also made me think of something: it seems that a lot of effort being put into keeping WM and BW apart, meanwhile BM and WW just keep on going about their lives, dating and marrying. Seems that it is usually the WM ans BW who are most often made to feel ashamed or guilty on IR pairings


  222. I will further elaborate on my first post.

    Many white guys I’ve talked to (again, only the ones I have talked to, not all white men) actually think just about all black women are 1. Loud 2. Obnoxious 3. Ghetto 4. Annoying

    It may be that perception only in America, I would suggest that media esp. like crap….er rap videos play a major role in that. I do agree with it.

    I’m sure some white men may think if black women cleaned their images up, it may help there cause. Personally, I don’t get it. Every race has bad apples, regardless.

    Many I would assume feel they don’t fit in with their personalities, i.e. back to the ghetto assumption. Status is a MAJOR issue with most white men, therefore diluting any interest furthermore.

    Of course you have many white men who are racist/bigots, not all will say anything directly to you.

    Some find black women unattractive period.

    Others may be interested, but don’t want to face any consequences/ridicule from friends/family/relatives.

    It’s easy to say….”Oh don’t listen to what others say.” I myself am a family oriented guy, it is a must to get along with the family esp. the Mother and Father.
    It would almost be an impossible task for it to work without family support.

    If you think it’s hard enough trying to carry an IR relationship at times, and then having no support from at least the family, whilst hearing remarks/whispers/rumors/gossip, I don’t see a healthy relationship stemming from that into the foreseeable future, and most likely will fail.

    Maybe some white men have been in those situations before, and then to realize that the hassle isn’t for them.

    Others may already see it beforehand, which totally turns them away.

    Everyone wants to be in a relationship where everything is in harmony. Of course not one is built on perfection, many white men just may be turned off from the ‘perceptions’ or ‘stereotypes’ of black women.

    You can give credit to the media for that.

    I am interested in black women. I have never dated a black woman, but I don’t let the ‘assumptions’ steer me away from my inner feelings and focus of finding a wonderful black woman someday.

    These are just my thoughts. Some I believe to be true, others just pure speculation. Again, everyone has their reason for dating or not dating out.

    I just try and inject some opinions in this blog in hopes of finding answers for myself as well.

    Peace


  223. The last few commenter’s have been informative, but about White men losing status, I disagree for the simple fact that they are at the top of the racial pyramid that we have the misfortune to navigate in this society. White men, for the most part, being as this is a patriarchal society, make the rules and by de facto run most of our world, therefore they are in a unique position to change the rules if they wanted to because like everything else, they have the political and cultural currency to dictate what is acceptable in society just by their actions alone. And since White men have most of the power to change things, which is why if racism is ever to be tackled honestly and resolutely it would be White men who should be willing enough to humanize their fear and or disgust of Black people and especially Black women.

    Thus the supposed hand ringing and fear of ridicule and public censure and ostraizartion from their own is largely groundless, especially when you have examples such as Ronald Betts a multi-millionaire who married an obviously Black woman http://broadwayworld.com/people/?personid=12078 who has obviously mixed children. This man comes from old money and even supported Bush quite handsomely, which would make it seem all the more unlikely that he could even envision marrying a Black woman but he didn’t even have to risk anything since he can do whatever he wanted to. Peter Norton a self-made multi-millionaire several times over has married 2 obviously black women (his current wife is Gwen Adams http://www.newyorksocialdiary.com/partypictures/2006/11_01_06/images/ps1/Gwen-Adams-and-Peter-Norton.jpg) and they certainly wouldn’t be categorized as Tyra Banks or Beyonce or Alicia Keyes doubles. These two examples of exceptional white men who could have easily gone the whole kewpie blonde blue eyed trophy or Latina, Asian wife like so many do, consciously chose Black women and were obviously not concerned about what society, their family or friends thought because they are at the top and they make the rules. Moreover, it should be noted that White men have a bevy of options for the simple fact that they are the default choice among non-white women (even when you factor in the point that they are the majority) when it comes to interracial pairings, which once again illustrates that they are the top of the racial pyramid and have the ability and the power to exercise their choice, regardless of public censure.

    So, the question becomes, why don’t most see past he ugly stereotypes of black women and be willing to engage Black women as normal human beings worthy of the same consideration that they easily give to Becky, Kim, or Maria? It is because they simply have no willingness or desire to do so. It’s far too comfortable having their pick of other women that they don’t deem are beneath them—and this attitude I have found cuts across socio-economic lines.


  224. Very well said Mayhue.


  225. @Black Persia:

    “it seems that a lot of effort being put into keeping WM and BW apart, meanwhile BM and WW just keep on going about their lives, dating and marrying. Seems that it is usually the WM ans BW who are most often made to feel ashamed or guilty on IR pairings.”

    Agree.

    The WM/BW pairing has been fought against more than many people realize.

    Has been for the last four and a half centuries.

    @Azrazyel:

    “I’m sure some white men may think if black women cleaned their images up, it may help there cause.”

    And what would those images that Black women should clean up———————————especially if those Black women are not “Ghetto/loud/annoying”?

    “It may be that perception only in America, I would suggest that media esp. like crap….er rap videos play a major role in that. I do agree with it.”

    Yes…media whores such as Snoopy Dog and Fitty Cent step acoss the backs of Black women to prostitute themselves for money. Even if it means making “music” videos to get rich quick or die trying.

    But………..

    ………in order to have a whore (Snoopy & Fitty), you have to have a pimp, and the White men who control the media are the pimps who package, sell, and disseminate the racist/sexist images of Black women around the world.

    The White men who own and control the filth images of Black women call the shots. The White men who produce rap crap that degrades Black women are in no hurry to sell any kind of positive image of Black women.

    Also, before Black rappers like Dog and Cent started calling Black women “b” and “h” words, White men already had that down pat when they have been calling Black women nigger bitches for centuries.

    So, rap crap videos were not the first b and h words used against Black women. No, they learned it from the master himself. (Kinda like trying to dismantle Massa’s house with his own tools. Never will work.) Now, with the media and Internet, hatred of Black women can be sent all around the globe to millions of people, while the media owner pimps (White men) get rich all the way to the bank.

    White men control the media/record studios.

    Don’t see any of them in any hurry to clean up their act.

    @Mayhue:

    “White men, for the most part, being as this is a patriarchal society, make the rules and by de facto run most of our world, therefore they are in a unique position to change the rules if they wanted to because like everything else, they have the political and cultural currency to dictate what is acceptable in society just by their actions alone. And since White men have most of the power to change things, which is why if racism is ever to be tackled honestly and resolutely it would be White men who should be willing enough to humanize their fear and or disgust of Black people and especially Black women.”

    Well put.

    White men have fought against and vilified Black women for so long that they fear BLACK WOMEN more than they do Black men. Any one who knows the history of Black people in this country would know that from how White men have savagely treated Black women.

    That fear and loathing of Black women is still with us.

    For White men to grow backbones in their response/treatment/interactions with Black women to happen would be a sign that White men (in America) have decided to change the social/racial heirarchy in this country.

    But, as you state, they are not about to do that anytime soon.

    Maybe in 10,000 to 15,000 years.

    But, not in this lifetime.

    “It is because they simply have no willingness or desire to do so. It’s far too comfortable having their pick of other women that they don’t deem are beneath them—and this attitude I have found cuts across socio-economic lines.”

    Well said.

    Therefore, why stop the denigration of a race of women that the men of your race have been fighting against for centuries.

    Might as well keep on doing the same ‘ol, same ‘ol.

    Staying atop that pyramid takes a lot of work to maintain it.

    Especially if it means adding some humanity in how you treat a race of women who have survived all the numerous types of abominations that White men have thrown (and still do) towards Black women.


  226. on Mon 3 Aug 2009 at 06:37:48 Truth B. Told

    The last few commenter’s have been informative, but about White men losing status, I disagree for the simple fact that they are at the top of the racial pyramid that we have the misfortune to navigate in this society. White men, for the most part, being as this is a patriarchal society, make the rules and by de facto run most of our world, therefore they are in a unique position to change the rules if they wanted to because like everything else, they have the political and cultural currency to dictate what is acceptable in society just by their actions alone.

    I disagree with this because White men don’t make the rules, it is only a very specific group of White men who have a say on how our world is run. The vast majority of White men are schlubs that drive buses or stock shelves or shuffle papers just trying to survive like everyone else. Priviledge does not equal control. They are only as priviledged as the ruling elite allows them.

    Therefore, why stop the denigration of a race of women that the men of your race have been fighting against for centuries.

    And I disagree with this because White men have fought nearly everyone for the past 500 years and that does not stop him from marrying those other races of women. Commodore Perry, Pearl Harbor, dropping a couple of A-bombs, and competition in the auto industry has not stopped White men from seeking Japanese brides and vice versa.


  227. Thank you for publishing this. Your observations are right.But i think we have to hit the point straight.. A white man can date any white woman from Amrica or Europe cos their beauty ideology is the same. Most black women without typical African facial feature are bi or multiracial black women. She must not be light skinned to be bi or multi racial. I assume that being 100% black ist not acceptable. There is this term “looking too African” but i have never heard “looking to european” A bi or multiracial black woman is considered prettier than a 100% black woman. And there is nothing like multi racial white person. We need to redefine our beauty ideology a mixed race black women can be considered prettier than 100% black women we need to show some racial pride


  228. The Golden Rule is that: he who has the gold makes the rules. However, it is NOT every white man who has the gold, and therefore is not in a position to make the rules. As Truth B. Told has pointed out, the average white guy is in no position to “change things”, and a few examples of rich white men they have never even seen or heard of is not going to convince them that it is OK to get with a sistah on any level. Anyway, the media is not going to show a wealthy white man loving a BW–hell they don’t even show us the wealthy BM that have black wives and girlfreinds. “They” would have us thinking that all BM who have attained a certain socioeconomic status , and thus a choice, will choose a non-BW every time. But the actual fact is that for every Kobe Bryant, there are 10 athletes and entertainers with BW. But I guess that’s just not sexy enough to put out there. Getting back to my point, when you have millions upon millions of dollars, you most certainly CAN do what you want. But the average white guy is just trying to maintain his position within his community and family, and not rock the boat. So, Multi-millionaires doing what they want and marrying BW is not a realistic example to use. Rich folks can get away with stuff that others can’t.

    I just do not believe that white men, or other men for that matter, simply do not like black women, and have no desire to engage in some level of romantic relationship. I have just heard the opposite too much to think otherwise. I have had an older, now wealthy, white gentleman lamenting to me about how he missed his opportinity with a black woman in his youth–still obviously hurt. He just felt that at the time, as the average white guy that he was–he just could not do it. I had a white guy cry and tell me that he looooved me, but that he just could not lose his family. Guess he did not love me enough, but right today he is married to a white woman, and cannot stop dialing my number. To boot, he said that as a young man, his father told him that he had been in love with a black woman. That same man told me that “all” white men “like” black women. My husband says the same thing–that generally speaking, WM are attracted to BW, but can’t “risk” actually being with a BW. Now, I have to admit that he also said that many WM are afraid that BW are going to “go off” if approached by a WM–i’m guessing because of the image the media has put out there about us. But as we all know, BW can be some of the sweetest and most supportive women in the world. Of course, I don’t know what “like” means. Does it mean sex, one-night stand, talk to , be friendswith, date, impregnate, marry? Different for each person, I guess.

    My husband’s best friend wanted very badly to be with a black girlfriend he had, but broke up with her because he felt his family would not accept her. He still speaks of her to this day. My own husband said he had to think long and hard about the possibility that if he married me, he might lose his family–but of course he had the balls and followed his heart. I am certainly not saying that all WM secretly want as BW, but what I am saying is that the attraction is there, and we certainly don’t “disgust” them as others would have us think. We are NOT disgusting. We do NOT repulse men. Society wants BW to feel unwanted, unloveable, and unattractive. Don’t buy it. And as for white men having no problem marrying others–I believe that is is simply because it is more accepted, because it is not necessarily “otherness” that bothers folks, but “blackness”, and not just talking about the actual skin color. Because white folks don’t really differentiate from chocolate and high yellow like black folk. They just know you are black.


  229. @Truth Be Told:

    “Privilege does not equal control.”

    I disagree.

    White privilege has nothing to do with control.

    White skin privilege gives millions of White people the benefit of a doubt. White skin privilege gives White people higher racial status in America. A White man does not have to be president of America, run a multi-national corporation or be a millionaire to be given respect that is often not accorded many Black people, on a daily basis.

    White skin privilege does not cause racial profiling of White people; being followed around stores by store security; being pulled over for Driving While White.

    White skin privilege does not equate with the sexist racist stereotypes that still hound Black women.

    White people have never been considered the anti-neighbor, the anti-citizen, when after all that your people (Black Americans) have done for and contributed to America is so derisively castigated and demeaned.

    Many people equate the word “privilege” with power, elitism (remember the Obamas and Yale, and “elitism”? (:

    Privilege comes in many forms, many types, and arises in many situations.

    Only some people (Whites) have more privilege than others (Blacks).

    “They are only as privileged as the ruling elite allows them.”

    Yes and no.

    They are only as privileged as the ruling class Whites will allow them, but, as history has shown, it was the poor, destitute Whites who destroyed many Blacks in lynch mobs. No need to have rich Whites join in the carnage (although some did.) Poor Whites, like today, still oftentimes vote against their best interests due to race hatred, and in their trying to align themselves——-politically, socially, and mentally——with the ruling class that is holding everyone down———-they many times slit their own throats right along with those of the Black people who often are in the same boat as poor Whites.

    So, no.

    Privileges has its benefits, and for ALL Whites, on various levels, privileges keep them at the top of the racial ladder, and Blacks at the bottom of the racial ladder.

    “And I disagree with this because White men have fought nearly everyone for the past 500 years and that does not stop him from marrying those other races of women.”

    Okay.

    So, what is stopping them from marrying Black women?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    @Black Persia:

    “The Golden Rule is that: he who has the gold makes the rules. However, it is NOT every white man who has the gold, and therefore is not in a position to make the rules.”

    Yes, those who have all the gold can make the rules; but, neither does that mean that one has to slavishly follow them.

    Whites have followed the *rulers* even when they knew in their hearts that the leaders/elected officials/rulers were doing wrong and enacting unjust laws.

    People have a choice.

    It is called free will.

    Yes, Whites can face hate from their own families. That is a fact of life. But, life is never all despondent, nor all peaches-and-cream. One either can handle what life throws them, or buckle under. Many Black women are not asking for Prometheus-bound White men to come into their lives; just men who will be men. We cannot change the laws against running stop signs, speeding, and hitting pedestrians, but, on a daily basis, we call all input some change that makes things better for us all.

    “As Truth B. Told has pointed out, the average white guy is in no position to “change things”

    I disagree.

    They can change many things………………

    …………….starting with themselves.

    If the many Black people who fought against slavery and segregation were to subscribe to such beliefs, then Black Americans would still be living in the perverted racial abominations that Whites relegated them to. If many Blacks felt that “Well, there is nothing we can do to change things,” life for Black Americans today would still be the hell it was for my parents, grandparents. etc.

    There is much White men can do to change the world around them starting with obliterating the asinine notion that all Black women as you state “would go off on them” if they approached a Black woman. If a man speaks intelligently and respectfully to me, I have no problem with that. Now, if a White man wants to believe in stereotypical lies about Black women, then that says much about HIM, not about HER.

    “Anyway, the media is not going to show a wealthy white man loving a BW–hell they don’t even show us the wealthy BM that have black wives and girlfreinds. “They” would have us thinking that all BM who have attained a certain socioeconomic status , and thus a choice, will choose a non-BW every time.”

    Of course not.

    The vilification of Black women reigns supreme in dear old America. For every one (White women) who is up in the hierarchy in many men’s eyes, there must be some one (Black women) who must be pushed to the margins as society’s scapegoat and pilloried whipping girl.

    No.

    White-run society will not show a Peter Norton, a George Lucas, or any other high-profile White man with a Black woman. That would be akin to lauding the beauty and loveliness of so many Black women.

    As for White men following the lead of rich, alpha White males, does not matter what the rich males do. Since so many White males are afraid to break free from family/friends/neighbors positions-viewpoints, their not going to do much in the way for themselves anyhow, at least where Black women are concerned.

    “Getting back to my point, when you have millions upon millions of dollars, you most certainly CAN do what you want. But the average white guy is just trying to maintain his position within his community and family, and not rock the boat.”

    Well, that boat is sinking.

    Even a rat knows to desert a sinking ship and not go down with it.

    All the snotting and crying years later that many White men do about the lost-love of a Black woman, will not bring back what could have been.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    @Azrazyel:

    “It’s easy to say….”Oh don’t listen to what others say.” I myself am a family oriented guy, it is a must to get along with the family esp. the Mother and Father.”

    Even if those parents are wrong? Even if it means the destruction of what YOU want, not what they want?

    “It would almost be an impossible task for it to work without family support.”

    It can be impossible at times; at others it cannot. Depends on what you are willing to sacrifice for what you want out of life to make you happy. If a White man sees and wants a Black woman who is good for him, then must he take the cowardly way out and bow to family pressure, only to marry a White woman just because that is what his family wants?

    That is not what I would want.

    Yes, I would want my Mother to like and accept my non-Black spouse, but, she is not whom I will be marrying. She is not whom I will be living with. She is not whom I will cry to years later because I did not follow my heart and my dream to be with the man who loved me right then and there.

    Comes a time when we all have to make a stand.

    And accept the consequences that go with making decisions that adults make, and put away childish fears of worrying about what everyone else does or does not like.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Back @ Black Persia:

    “We are NOT disgusting.”

    Yes, we beautiful and loving women who have survived so much.

    “I believe that is is simply because it is more accepted, because it is not necessarily “otherness” that bothers folks, but “blackness”

    Yes.

    It is the demonification of “blackness” and the adoration of “whiteness” and everything that approaches it, that is worshiped in this country and this world.


  230. “we certainly don’t “disgust” them as others would have us think.. And as for white men having no problem marrying others–I believe that is is simply because it is more accepted, because it is not necessarily “otherness” that bothers folks, but “blackness”, and not just talking about the actual skin color.”

    Spot on!

    And I’m surprised at all of the “white men don’t find black women attractive” comments. I just haven’t seen that IRL. Must be a regional thing. I’ve always lived in places where blacks are a small minority so black women tend to get MORE attention from ALL men, not less; we just stand out more. Men like novelty.
    Walking around Europe I was practically mobbed (to the point that it was frightening) every where I went. American WM are just weird, I guess. Although they at least peek. ;-)


  231. @Black and German –

    “Mobbed” lol. ok


  232. Thank you Ann for pointing out the obvious regarding how White privilege– the privilege of assumption that many Whites have regardless of how rich or poor they are trumps the supposed idea that regular average Joe White Men are simple pawns with no power, whereas rich white men are orchestrating their whole lives. If the Average Joe didn’t have any power, then Joe the Plumber and Sarah Palin would never have been given a platform in which to pontificate on why the average White life is in jeopardy of being overrun by non-White masses. Do you think Pat Bucanhan Rush Limbaugh, Michael Savage, and Glenn Beck, pretty average guys with average intelligence—espousing various forms of racist hate for Black people, would be given a legitimate media platform to make millions if they were anything other than White men? Jim the Cop-Average Joe Crowley was certainly given the benefit of the doubt by many White people, even after it was uncovered that his police report and the 911 transcript showed obvious lies by Average Joe Crowley. He seemed to wield a considerable amount of power for such an average schlep. And that is what privilege is and why White men can be rich poor, average, lazy, but they are always given the benefit of the doubt—they are nurtured, cared for because they, it is assumed they always have potential for greatness and thus—they continue to make the rules. Lastly, we live in a democratic society in which we can elect people that represent us, with the exception of some redlined districts, they appear to be a considerable of White people that vote for White people that they believe champion their interests. If the average white joe was really that powerless then why do avowed racist like Helms, Trent Lott, and others continually get elected.

    In addition, the reason why I illustrated examples such as Roland Betts and Peter Norton is that they met their wives when they were not powerful. Betts may have been wealthy but was teaching in a low income school in Harlem when he met his wife. She didn’t even know until later that he was rich and Peter Norton’s first wife was with him when he was just a programmer without any prospects and she was a girl from Watts. IN fact, they are unusual in that they still followed their own star regarding what they found attractive and stuck with it even when they amassed huge wealth and they certainly damned the consequences of what their families, friends or society thought about their choices. It doesn’t matter at the end of the day if they honestly find attractive in their secret heart of hearts, White men are in a position to do whatever they want and be damned the supposed artificial consequences that they have constructed to continue a racial hierarchy, but as I noted before they have no desire to change the status quo.

    The meme that Black women are unlovable, disgusting and unattractive started from somewhere and it certainly didn’t start in the Black community (even when you factor in virulent colorism within the Black community)—the blame should be placed on those who created this system in the first place—white men. It’s amazing to me that White women and Black men are the first to be blamed for White men’s lack of initiative in supposed IR’s without first acknowledging the fact that because we live in patriarchal society in which Men still make the rules and have been doing so for at least a millennia, that somehow they are exempt because there are anecdotal examples of a couple of weak willed white men who let the Black girl get away because of family or whatever superficial hang-up would result in them in losing face.

    In the end White men just like most people—have a choice. They have remarkable free will and the ability to do whatever they want in this society. The racism of which they were the key architects, that we live with in America makes it impossible for most White men who supposedly have this burning interest or unrequited desire to do something about it. I still maintain that the inertia that is prevalent is a result of rules that they created and are petrified of dismantling since it continues and will continue to benefit them by virtue of them being white.


  233. I fail to see the problem. People are attracted to whomever they are attracted to. If a white dude doesn’t like you, then forget ‘em. Find someone else. Why on Earth does that matter (except to give you a conspiracy to gripe about)? How about a comparison of WM/BW relationships to thin man/large woman relationships? I think you’ll find that one statistically more overwhelming than your observations here. Or how about Asian man/BW? This is just silly.


  234. on Mon 3 Aug 2009 at 19:41:37 Truth B. Told

    They are only as privileged as the ruling class Whites will allow them, but, as history has shown, it was the poor, destitute Whites who destroyed many Blacks in lynch mobs.

    Exactly and when the ruling elite passed Hate Crime Legislation and actually enforced the law, much of the violence stopped. A fine example of poor whites having as much “power” as the elite whites give them.

    The ruling elite is good a playing the races off against each other. It helps to keep wages depressed (more competition for jobs = lower wages) and people divided on petty issues (rap music vs. country music) so they can’t focus on the larger fleecing that is going on.

    joe the plumber – a total pawn used by the news media and especially Fox News to create a story

    Sarah Palin – got attention because she was running for VP and she was for lack of a better term “entertaining”

    Pat Bucanhan Rush Limbaugh, Michael Savage, and Glenn Beck – Though being white has help their careers, these guys can attract an audience, which counts for something. Many other whites have failed to attract an audience and their skin doesn’t save them.

    Average Joe Crowley – If he had actual power, the charges against Dr. Gates wouldn’t have had to be dropped nor would he need to tamper with anything. His priviledge that comes with his skin color and his job gives him the benefit of the doubt.

    Lastly, we live in a democratic society in which we can elect people that represent us, with the exception of some redlined districts, they appear to be a considerable of White people that vote for White people that they believe champion their interests. If the average white joe was really that powerless then why do avowed racist like Helms, Trent Lott, and others continually get elected.

    The average white joe has one vote just like everyone else. If the average white joe truly had power, do you think we would have a Biracial man as president?


  235. @Ann:

    You don’t have to scorn me for having my opinions. I am a white man who has NEVER dated a black woman. I fear all these things I have mentioned before. I want to learn from others without feeling like the words are being shoved down my throat.

    I respect your opinions just like I would hope you would respect mine. I am 28 years old, I don’t need someone to teach me how to date another race.

    I ask these questions and give my opinions/assumptions in hopes of seeking knowledge from people who have done it before. I am willing to learn from people about the major differences and also experiences of IR dating compared to dating within ones own.

    I already know the general things of IR dating. I want to hear from experiences and hardships of what exactly to expect.

    And yes, it IS a must that I MUST get along with the family, esp. Mom and Dad. I am that way individually, just like it is when I date a white woman. If I can’t get along, it’s not for me. No exceptions.

    You can hate me for my opinions, I am what I am and I will not change for anyone.

    Peace


  236. blackpersia, Mayhue,Nubiah and Ann,
    Thanks for eloquently clarifying how ANTI-BW COWARDICE and ANTI-BW RACISIM greatly influence how American WM relate to BW and whether or not they choose to have relationships with them. Thanks, too for offerring possible solutions to the problems caused by ANTI-BW COWARDICE/RACISM.

    EXAMPLES OF ANTI-BW COWARDICE:

    blackpersia said,
    – From what I have been told, WM hesitate to include BW in their dating/marrying pool due to posible social repercussions or fear of how their family will react. In addition, although my own husband denies it, I suspect that some WM may have an issue with the possibility of having Black children even though they love the black woman.
    -I have had an older, now wealthy, white gentleman lamenting to me about how he missed his opportinity with a black woman in his youth–still obviously hurt. He just felt that at the time, as the average white guy that he was–he just could not do it. I had a white guy cry and tell me that he looooved me, but that he just could not lose his family. Guess he did not love me enough, but right today he is married to a white woman, and cannot stop dialing my number. To boot, he said that as a young man, his father told him that he had been in love with a black woman. That same man told me that “all” white men “like” black women. My husband says the same thing–that generally speaking, WM are attracted to BW, but can’t “risk” actually being with a BW. Now, I have to admit that he also said that many WM are afraid that BW are going to “go off” if approached by a WM–i’m guessing because of the image the media has put out there about us.
    My husband’s best friend wanted very badly to be with a black girlfriend he had, but broke up with her because he felt his family would not accept her. He still speaks of her to this day.

    Ann said,
    It’s amazing to me that White women and Black men are the first to be blamed for White men’s lack of initiative in supposed IR’s without first acknowledging the fact that because we live in patriarchal society in which Men still make the rules and have been doing so for at least a millennia, that somehow they are exempt because there are anecdotal examples of a couple of weak willed white men who let the Black girl get away because of family or whatever superficial hang-up would result in them in losing face.

    laromana said,
    I have a hard time empathizing with past or present ANTI-BW COWARDS in American society who CHOOSE to NOT be true to themselves by REJECTING the BW they CLAIM to love because they FEAR what friends/family might say/think about it. If ALL of the WM in America who are attracted to BW and want to marry them CHOSE to REJECT ANTI-BW COWARDICE, the stigma against WM/BW IRR’s could be DESTROYED and these relationships could be mainstreamed.

    EXAMPLES OF ANTI-BW RACISM:

    blackpersia said,
    -“We are NOT disgusting.”

    Yes, we beautiful and loving women who have survived so much.

    “I believe that is is simply because it is more accepted, because it is not necessarily “otherness” that bothers folks, but “blackness”

    Yes.

    It is the demonification of “blackness” and the adoration of “whiteness” and everything that approaches it, that is worshiped in this country and this world.

    Mayhue said,
    -So, the question becomes, why don’t most see past he ugly stereotypes of black women and be willing to engage Black women as normal human beings worthy of the same consideration that they easily give to Becky, Kim, or Maria? It is because they simply have no willingness or desire to do so. It’s far too comfortable having their pick of other women that they don’t deem are beneath them—and this attitude I have found cuts across socio-economic lines.

    Ann said,
    -“And I disagree with this because White men have fought nearly everyone for the past 500 years and that does not stop him from marrying those other races of women.”

    Okay.

    So, what is stopping them from marrying Black women?
    -The meme that Black women are unlovable, disgusting and unattractive started from somewhere and it certainly didn’t start in the Black community (even when you factor in virulent colorism within the Black community)—the blame should be placed on those who created this system in the first place—white men.
    -All the snotting and crying years later that many White men do about the lost-love of a Black woman, will not bring back what could have been.

    laromana says,
    Clearly when MOST American WM have NO PROBLEM marrying ANY NON-BW but don’t marry BW, ANTI-BW RACISM has to be considered as the reason why.

    EXAMPLES OF THE SOLUTION FOR ANTI-BW COWARDICE/RACISM

    Nubiah said,
    -About Europe( I lived in France, Italy, Switzerland and now in UK( international gal LOL), for what I have witnessed UK,France, Portugal and Germany BW date/marry white men (and other)in high number.
    I know some find BW women more family oriented, hotter??? and exotic.
    In EU people are more mixed, socially speaking. So that makes things easier.

    Ann said,
    -The reason why I illustrated examples such as Roland Betts and Peter Norton is that they met their wives when they were not powerful. Betts may have been wealthy but was teaching in a low income school in Harlem when he met his wife. She didn’t even know until later that he was rich and Peter Norton’s first wife was with him when he was just a programmer without any prospects and she was a girl from Watts. IN fact, they are unusual in that they still followed their own star regarding what they found attractive and stuck with it even when they amassed huge wealth and they certainly damned the consequences of what their families, friends or society thought about their choices. It doesn’t matter at the end of the day if they honestly find attractive in their secret heart of hearts, White men are in a position to do whatever they want and be damned the supposed artificial consequences that they have constructed to continue a racial hierarchy, but as I noted before they have no desire to change the status quo.
    -There is much White men can do to change the world around them starting with obliterating the asinine notion that all Black women as you state “would go off on them” if they approached a Black woman. If a man speaks intelligently and respectfully to me, I have no problem with that. Now, if a White man wants to believe in stereotypical lies about Black women, then that says much about HIM, not about HER.
    -In the end White men just like most people—have a choice. They have remarkable free will and the ability to do whatever they want in this society. The racism of which they were the key architects, that we live with in America makes it impossible for most White men who supposedly have this burning interest or unrequited desire to do something about it. I still maintain that the inertia that is prevalent is a result of rules that they created and are petrified of dismantling since it continues and will continue to benefit them by virtue of them being white.


  237. I agree, great comments!

    The my-family-will-kill-me excuse coming from a grown man is a particularly weak one. Are white men truly that cowardly? Somehow I doubt it. I think it is just a cover for their own racism.

    The “too ugly” excuse and the “too ghetto” excuse are probably honest, but they mainly come from a racist way of looking at black women – through stereotypes and racialized ideas of beauty.

    I also find it curious that other white people will say “what about the children?” – meaning the children will be, ew, black – but you almost never hear this from the white men themselves. Like blackpersia, I suspect many of them are not being honest.


  238. on Mon 3 Aug 2009 at 21:38:28 Truth B. Told

    I notice when Black men date interracial, some Black women often accuse them of “hating their mothers” or “self-hate”. Funny how it is the opposite when White men don’t want to date interracial they are accused of being “cowards” of their family’s opinion.

    No one will credit the Black man for having the “courage” to stand up to his family or praise the White man for “loving the image of his mother.”

    More self-serving hypocrisy.


  239. Well, no. Being black and being white are not a mirror-image of each other, not in America.

    1. Self-hatred based on race is way more common among blacks than whites. Blacks have to live under white racism and its messages. Very few whites live under black racism.

    2. Due to the One Drop Rule, it takes less courage for black men because their children will be black no matter what. Not so for white men.


  240. Did anyone think that the reason you are more likely to see darker black girls with natural hair dating white guys is not because that is what white guys prefer, but because those girls are more likely to be open to dating white guys than are girls who belong in the second group?


  241. on Mon 3 Aug 2009 at 22:45:03 Truth B. Told

    Good points, Abagond.

    1. Cannot the same things (“self-hate” and “hate their father”) be said for Black women who are looking for White men?

    2. Cannot the same thing be said for White women who have children with Black men? The implication would be that White women have more “courage” then White men to mate out with Blacks since there are far more WW/BM matings than there are WM/BW matings.


  242. @Azrazyel:

    “You don’t have to scorn me for having my opinions.”

    I never scorned you. I spoke of White men in the general sense. When I stated “you” I meant in the plural/verbal semantic, not “you”/Azrazyel in the singular sense.

    I can live with people’s opinions, even when they differ from mine.

    “I want to learn from others without feeling like the words are being shoved down my throat.”

    And we all learn more from others who have a difference of opinion from ours. So, no, I did not shove words down YOUR throat. I stated how White men who fear family retribution have to decide what they want from life and how they will live with the decisions that they make.

    Things we all have to learn to do.

    “I respect your opinions just like I would hope you would respect mine.”

    And I respected your opinion, and never dissed you. I spoke of White men who worry more about what their families think, instead of going after what they (the White men, not you) really want out of life.

    “I am 28 years old, I don’t need someone to teach me how to date another race.”

    And I do not need anyone to misconstrue and take out of context my words.

    “And yes, it IS a must that I MUST get along with the family, esp. Mom and Dad. I am that way individually, just like it is when I date a white woman. If I can’t get along, it’s not for me. No exceptions.”

    Fine.

    And I am an individual who must do for what makes me happy.

    I can only do what I will be satisfied with in my life. I can only live my life.

    Then again (speaking for myself), I have not been forbidden to do anything by my parents in decades.

    Mom (Dad is deceased) will have to accept that I am adult, not a child. Mom will have to accept that it is my life, not hers (which is what I thought you comprehended from my response to you.) Parents (not speaking of yours) cannot rule their adult children’s lives forever. Sure, there will be people who come and go in and out of an adult child’s life, but, parents cannot protect their children from all the world throws at them. Parents can only continue to love and stand by their adult children.

    Whatever the decision that adult child makes.

    ” If I can’t get along, it’s not for me. No exceptions.”

    Can’t get along with the woman in particular…………..

    ……….or can’t get along with your parents dislike of that particular woman?

    “You can hate me for my opinions.”

    Wow, twist words around, much, do you.

    It is not necessary to fabricate emotions that I did not direct towards you.

    Now, go back and read my post, and keep in mind the general noun “you” as opposed to the singular noun “you”, and realize and understand that I meant White men in general.

    “I am what I am and I will not change for anyone.”

    Oh………………..

    …………………….I cannot see why you would say that.

    I mean, when the right woman comes along (regardless of race), there is much you will be willing to do to “change” for her.

    Trust me.

    It happens.

    “Peace.”

    And peace be upon you as well.


  243. Ann:

    I am glad we can have a constructive debate/conversation. I appreciate your input. I am here to learn, especially from other white men in particular about their personal experiences.

    I will take what I see as constructive and helpful, while placing other opinions not applied to me on the shelf maybe for a later time.

    Can’t get along with the woman in particular…………..

    Indeed.

    Obviously if you can’t get along with someone regardless of race, you are not happy. I can do things to try and repair a relationship or conversate (which is most important in any relationship) to work things out. Sometimes the other person may not be willing to hold their end of the bargain, or myself not being able to hold my own.

    Relationships fail for a multitude of reasons, obviously no one wants to be unhappy. All one can do is toughen up and, if you really love someone, talk about the issues and see where it goes.

    ……….or can’t get along with your parents dislike of that particular woman?

    My parents are accepting of any woman, regardless of race. I am okay in that aspect. I don’t care what the public thinks or says. They are unimportant.

    But, every parent will have a dislike of any woman regardless of race. For instance: If I were to bring home a drug user/drug dealer (I would never do in the first place) my parents would show an abundance of disdain and question my judgment.

    My point is, my parents are accepting of anyone they deem acceptable for their child, race is not a spec of a matter. It is also my duty to follow and find someone in my best interests and compatible with me.

    The only exception, if you will, is that it is a must that I get along with the parents and they too deem me acceptable. Why should I feel uncomfortable every time I go to family gatherings, parties, etc. etc.? I shouldn’t feel like I am always the one left out, or pushed aside and unnoticed.

    Therefore, again regardless of race, I need to feel comfortable and accepted as a white man, just as so my family would have open arms for a black woman.

    For me, it works both ways and that is a good recipe for a healthy relationship.

    “I am what I am and I will not change for anyone.”

    Maybe that comment by me was way off, or misunderstood.

    I will change for someone, of course I will. I’m sure she would also have to make sacrifices to make certain changes for me also. You are right.

    I think what I was originally trying to say was:

    “I want someone to accept me for who I am, and I will never let anyone try to change who I am for dating a black woman.”

    That includes the ‘perception’ and ‘stereotypes’ from the media, the public, comments, hate, words etc. etc.

    I am who I am and that is a white man in search of a black woman.

    I hope I cleared or de-misconstrued any statements I have made.

    Peace and Blessings


  244. @Azrazyel. It is one thing to respect and love your parents and want to maintain a good relationship. Most other people feel that way. But don’t you think it is something different if the ONLY reason family is unwilling to harmoniously co-exist with your mate is because of the color of her skin versus maybe an actual character flaw in the woman or personality conflicts in general. It seems to me that you would demand that they give you a better reason than skin color.ethnicity for not getting along. Just asking.


  245. @Azrazyel. Oh, and by the way, my now in-laws were up in arms when my husband first told them about us. Now, they either love the hell out of or they should be in Hollywood. But, really it worked out great.


  246. blackpersia:

    Read my comment above you. I already stated that my parents are open arms to anyone, regardless.

    It is only a matter for me that I am respected and treated with in accordance of the same manner as well.

    Peace and Blessings


  247. Exactly and when the ruling elite passed Hate Crime Legislation and actually enforced the law, much of the violence stopped. A fine example of poor whites having as much “power” as the elite whites give them.
    __________________________________________

    And? This didn’t prevent Sundown Towns from existing well into the 1980’s or prevent White Flight when any Black family moved into “their” neighborhood. Whites have privilege in that they are not automatically assumed to be criminals, thieves, Liars, welfare rats, and every other negative stereotype that is accorded Blacks—regardless of class. And the only reason Cambridge dropped the charges is because of the media frenzy that followed.

    The only thing that whites have to be considered about is whether or not someone will call them racist, other than that Blacks cannot prevent them from moving into desirable neighborhoods, follow them around stores because they shoplift, have a total Blackout in Hollywood in which they are not able to see a diversity of images that reflect their reality, prevent them being approved for a loan, deny them or give them sub-standard medical care, deny them a job interview, et c et c. Pretty average Loan Officers School Teachers, Cops, Doctors and Nurses that have the power to effect the reality of many Black people in any given situation.

    Lastly, this conversation is pointless since you don’t believe that the average white American has any power to effect the lives of average Black American thus it is pointless to go back and forth with you. Tim Wise, Peggy MacDonald, the blog Stuff White People Do—all white people who see the effects daily and are more qualified to comment on the ways and privilege of everyday White people then some anonymous paranoid Black person on the internet, to get a better understanding of how White privilege works regardless of class.


  248. Excellent comment.


  249. This reminds me of my first girlfriend, back in the 70s…we were both 10 years old at the time. I will never forget her afro puffs.


  250. I love this topic but not because of the rhetoric. I am a “stereotypical” African-American woman (Brown skin, big breast, butt, and thighs etc., blah, blah, blah,). What annoys me is the overtly political correctness this topics bring to head. The truth is that EVERYONE has preferences. If a White man is attracted to a certain look, it is what it is–there is no mystical reason. P.S. ANY man would be attracted to a woman that is sought after by the masses, it is in his genetic makeup. On a more gutteral level we are all the same color in the dark and whether we want to admit it, that in some senses is the bottom line.


  251. I am a middle-age white man, and while I agree with some of these points. I also disagree with some of them. In terms of physical attraction, I’ve often thought that I might be more attracted to black women than white women. Skin color doesn’t matter to me, a black woman could be light-skinned or dark. I’m also more attracted to black women who are thicker (proportionately thick) than I am to those who are thin. Toccara Jones was listed as a black woman that fewer white men would date, but I am extremely attracted to her, and would have no problem bringing her home to meet my mother. I disagree also with “not too big of a bottom”. I like women with some “junk in the trunk”.


  252. on Wed 5 Aug 2009 at 03:58:38 Truth B. Told

    Mayhue,

    I am a “paranoid” black person, and what are you? Some beacon of knowledge and viewpoint that my skin color can’t possibly allow me to grasp? Just because I refuse to worship at the all-mighty white people’s alter like you does not mean the way I see the world is mute or irrelevant.

    I have said power and priviledge are two diifferent things. The things you describe are elements of priviledge not power.

    – Not every white person is a Hollywood Producer
    – Not every white person is a landlord
    – Not every white person is a Police officer
    – Not every white person is a Banker
    – Not every white person owns a store
    – Not every white person is a doctor

    Guess what? There are some Black people who work in these fields and I have received crappy service from them. Is that Black power? And I have received excellent service from some whites who served in this capacity and some not so excellent.

    According to your own logic, if Tim Wise, Peggy MacDonald, the blog Stuff White People Do – if they are in such a great position to see the world that I am not, then I would have to listen to the David Horowitzes and Pat Buchanans also, since they share the same societal position that Tim Wise and Peggy McDondald does.

    The reality is it is pointless for me to continue this conversation with you because your head is so far up all White people’s ass you don’t make any sense.


  253. I’m a black woman,who currently dates a white man. In my past experiences with black men, they appear to be very arguemental in every way.In my relationship now of 9 months, he is always up for new adventures.Even now I still get butterflies when I’m about to see him and that is a great feeling. We love to touch and kiss all the time, no matter where we are. He even paints my toe nails. Live everyday to the fullest and smile. I’m in love at 42 years old and I never felt this love before. Also about the hair? My hair is very short and as my boyfriend, he says,” I fell in love with you, not your hair.”


  254. I say go on a date. Go swimming in the pool, hiking in the mountains,see a concert,always come to an agreement and never argue, and last send pictures of yourself to his cell phone-everday… I’m a black woman and I love my man.Even when our bodies are naked, we love our black and white skin.Love is real,and we will never part. We are soul mates, but in public-we are celebrities.


  255. I am currently in a interracial relationship, I am white and she is black. I feel we were brought together by fate. I first saw her at a restaurant and was amazed at her beauty and I thought about her for over a week until I came to the realization that our paths would probably never cross again until that one day I saw her Beautiful Face on a social networking website and I just knew it was her. Too make a long story short it was her and we will be celebrating our 1 year of love in a couple months. We are together almost everyday. Complete strangers have actually commented to us what a Great and Beautiful couple we are on several occasions. She is the first black woman I have ever dated and I have found the love of my life in her. She has became my life and the color of her skin doesnt make a bit of difference, I think it is beautiful. I believe there is one race and thats the Human Race. I Love You Lynda.


  256. Oh babe, you are amazing and we are meant to be. I’m your chocolate candy bar and we have what it takes to make it. I love you, I need you, and I don’t want to be without you. Your my sexy pants.XOXO


  257. islandgirl: ““Mobbed” lol. ok”

    Actually, it’s quite scary sometimes. LOL! Sort of stalker-y.

    I’m used to walking around America and being nearly invisible. Men might glance in my direction or strike up some friendly conversation, but that’s about it. Over there it’s a whole ‘nother story. And then you have to contend with the fact that it’s not consider rude to stare. The open-mouthed gaping can be unsettling. And if you’re sitting alone at a cafe or restaurant it’s not uncommon to have one of them just plop in the vacant seat and chat you up.

    It’s funny because I’d forgotten what it’s like until I went back for a visit in May. I took a train ride to visit a friend by myself and this guy (older businessman) sat across from me even though the car was mostly empty and stared at me over his newspaper. Creepy. But even creepier was when I got up to move to a different seat and HE FOLLOWED. I kid you not. Happens to me all of the time over there. And the “Where are you from? You look like the women I saw in [name some tropical country] on vacation this summer. The women there are soooo beautiful.” I had a German colleague who spent his vacation in Cuba once and he couldn’t shut up about it afterward. Drove us all crazy.

    I must note that I’ve never been bothered in England on any of the 5 trips there. It was unusual in a different way: the men there treated me like I was raceless; just like all of the other women. I dated an Englishman and a Scotsman (both for over a year) and, I must say, one of the most refreshing things about it was that they didn’t even seem to care that I was “exotic”. It was a complete non-issue for them and their friends/family. That surprised me.

    The German guys treated me like a tropical flower (except for my husband) and the American guys treated me like forbidden fruit. The Brits (and some Austrialians and a Kenyan) that I was friends/colleagues with treated me like… a person. It was quite shocking, really. LOL!


  258. Sorry about the “stalker.” I had the same experience in Mannheim.


  259. Guess what? There are some Black people who work in these fields and I have received crappy service from them. Is that Black power? And I have received excellent service from some whites who served in this capacity and some not so excellent.

    According to your own logic, if Tim Wise, Peggy MacDonald, the blog Stuff White People Do – if they are in such a great position to see the world that I am not, then I would have to listen to the David Horowitzes and Pat Buchanans also, since they share the same societal position that Tim Wise and Peggy McDondald does.

    The reality is it is pointless for me to continue this conversation with you because your head is so far up all White people’s ass you don’t make any sense.

    *******************************************

    Your incredible obtuseness with your own head solidly up white people’s asses wouldn’t be so stultifying and morbidly pathetic if you cannot even conceive that Bad customer service is not what I am at all talking about. As I said—it was already pointless to discuss obviously abstract topics when you attempted to engage in something you have no conception of even understanding and the worst part is that your hypocritical vacillations cannot hide your own weird obsessions with IR blogs run by Black women in which you excoriate Black women for their own hypocrisy and the supposed threat the Black women have for injuring Black male pride–yet your blatant hypocrisy is so pathetically evident.

    Your paleo-style ignorance and inability to understand basic social concepts when discussing race makes you unworthy for any further dialogue.

    Don’t address me again and I’ll be sure to return the favor but I am sure your inept pride cannot afford anything less then to have the last word.


  260. on Wed 5 Aug 2009 at 22:16:33 Truth B. Told

    Mayhue,

    You really should stop projecting your inadequacies upon me. I made an argument you disagree with and all you can do is insult me while ducking the basis of my arguments.

    Talk about inept pride, you are loser who can’t control your temper if someone doesn’t agree with you. It is obvious in your last statement where you attempt to give me an order and then cowardly back it up with reverse psychology.

    And how exactly do you know what I have an “obsession” with? Are you following me around the net? Perhaps you are obsessed with me.

    If you want to suck up to the average white person then by all means. I am sure there is a Bus Driver who is struggling to pay his bills who will welcome the attention you give him.


  261. on Wed 5 Aug 2009 at 22:22:37 Truth B. Told

    Oh and put down the thesaurus. It only makes you look like a pseudo-intellect.


  262. Beauty knows no racial limitations. Yes, it is possible for a (handsome) white man to fall romantically and helplessly in love with a black woman or with any other beautiful woman for that matter.


  263. “Truth be Told” and “Mayhue” kiss and make up now. No hating!


  264. Mayhue & Truth B. Told:

    If you want to take issue with each other’s arguments on their own merits that is fine, but if you keep on calling each other names, then I will simply delete your comments.


  265. I believe love has no color. My boyfriend and I are really in love, we text a lot, talk on the phone every chance we can. The fact that I’m a black woman, never have I been treated terrible by any race, only the black race. Their are some people who take life to serious…Life is about making the best out of each day and I smile on life. Hey you guys, we are alive. Remember to be nice to one another and say something positive, everyone needs a nice comment…EVERYDAY (:


  266. I am a BW currently engaged to a WM. I thought the topic was very interesting and wanted to comment in agreement with pretty much all of the original authors basic observations of WM’s who typically prefer BW based on the experiences I have had dating my white fiancee.

    When I met my honey “B” he lived next door to me as my neighbor. My complexion is medium brown and when I met “B” I was sporting my hair natural (a well-groomed kinky afro) and sometimes I styled it with braids.

    After B and I established a surprising friendship and had been dating for some time, “B”, my sweetie, confessed to me that it was easier for him to approach me as just a nice girl he wanted to date, despite race….since he grew up in Oregon where there’s less racism (We currently live in Texas, the deep south).

    He never looks at people heavily in terms of race so that was a factor—he was never a closet racist in the beginning. He is , first of all just a very non-judgemental and open person.

    But really the main ,number one reason he felt comfortable with me was because he said I am a “sweetheart” and also,–In his own words, the attraction factor is that I “speak perfect English” and can carry on an intelligent conversation without a lot of slang. He really detests it when anyone makes a mockery of the English language by using it all wrong.

    B and I enjoy having intellectual discussions over coffee, and he does appreciate and admire the fact that I am an educated (master’s degreed) sister.

    Also, before I met “B” I was very surprised to find out that when I was wearing my fro that MORE white men were attracted to me—almost as though I was an exotic fantasy–they would stop me and carry on conversatiions with me all the time, and that never happened before I wore the fro.

    Also, I do think its true that the WM are more comfortable with the shape of your “typical” white girl, a skinnier frame with the WM fantasy of big breasts.

    This is how I am shaped, like an “ice-cream” cone, I have bigger breasts and get skinner toward the bottom– and “B” loves my shape even though when I grew up I was always teased for having “no booty” and “no junk in my trunk” like most of my other black friends. I also believe WM think a big ass= you are “fat” and you need to spend some time on the treadmill.

    I just believe deep down that when its all said and done even WM know that to see a STRONG woman comfortable enough in her own skin to just be herself despite the pressure of the dominate culture—and who is proud of who she is and has the spunky attitude that she could “give a damn” what anyone else thinks about how GOD made her—-that in itself, for a BW or any woman to have “self confidence”, “her own sense of style’ and “being true to herself” is attractive to just about ANY man—-even white men! A BW’s SELF PRIDE and CONFIDENCE can allure anyone into her beautiful world if she is comfortable enough with her own power.


  267. Hi Yolanda:

    I have to disagree with you on white men finding a black woman’s round bottom unattractive or fat. My last boyfriend is white (Swedish and English) and he LOVED that I have a curvy figure. He proclaimed hisself the official “butt” man and said that legs came next and then breast. I do agree on some points, our education levels were an attraction as I also have a masters degree and he is a professional also. I have just began wearing my hair natural so I will see who I get the most compliments from. I do believe that many black men say they do not like weaves or relaxers, but are in denial. I still love black men though!


  268. I have to agree with G-Ball, I am a white male and My Black Lady has a Perfect Bottom.


  269. Peter, email me at twilight2980@hotmail.com


  270. I am thinking of doing a post on “white men that black women like” – the opposite of this one. If anyone wants to do a guest post, I am open to the idea. Also if anyone can point me to good sources of information online, that would help me too.

    The ideal guest blogger would have strong opinions on the subject that can be expressed in 500 words, give or take 20 words.


  271. I think the subject would be a bit broad. I am a woman who is more attracted to intellect than looks. Some women are looking for a vanilla bad boy.

    However the most common thing I noticed is many BW seem to pair with dark-haired, dark-eyed WM.


  272. Physically black women are as equally attractive as all other races. And every type of black woman usually looks nice, at least in my opinion. But I’m always hearing about their so called bad attitude, yet the ones I know aren’t like that at all.

    So is it a complete myth, or is it that you drop the attitude with non-black men? Or is it that the black women with non-black men are the non-attitude types?


  273. Tibbs:

    I think it’s probably a bit of both: black women who date out know how they are stereotyped, so I’m sure some make a conscious effort to not fit that image. But, I also know many black women who date out who just aren’t bitchy.
    Then there are those like me who don’t consider themselves as having attitude as much as having a back bone. I don’t usually look mean and I don’t make a federal case of every action and comment that is made. But, when the need arises, I will stand toe-to-toe with a man and express my displeasure.

    Ironically, the man I’m seeing (White) has admitted to baiting me sometimes just to experience the “attitude.” So, I think he’s learning what most black men grow up knowing – we may become a bit demonstrative at times, but really it’s harmless. They also know the same engery that fuels the fire of rage fuels the fires of passion, too. *smiles*


  274. IMHO,

    I think the ghetto black women are the one’s with the attitude. They are the one’s who don’t date out of race.

    It seems that black women who date out of race are successful, have a career, have a life and just something going for them.

    That’s the difference in my opinion.


  275. To often people equate “ghetto” with being black. I used to work in social services. I’ve seen the same “attitude” from poor white women. Strangely, no one will lump poor white women with white women as a whole.

    Black people are diverse as any other segment of American life. Women in my family know ghetto behavior is completely unacceptable.

    People with choices don’t lash out at the world.


  276. Luna:

    I meant no disrespect when I mentioned ghetto.
    That is just my way of interpreting a certain group if you will, and a term everyone equates to.

    It’s kinda like me saying that the same class can be applied to white people as white trash.

    It’s basically a term everyone has heard and knows of. Sort of like the term ‘whigger’ for white people. It is probably wrong to classify in such a manner, but again, everyone easily equates to those terms with one word, and without need for further explanation.

    Take care


  277. Azrazyel,

    No offense taken. It is just an observation.

    Poor black people fall into the same trap of presuming all black people are poor. I’ve called them on their skewed vision of the world.


  278. Abagond:

    “I am thinking of doing a post on “white men that black women like” – the opposite of this one. If anyone wants to do a guest post, I am open to the idea. Also if anyone can point me to good sources of information online, that would help me too.

    The ideal guest blogger would have strong opinions on the subject that can be expressed in 500 words, give or take 20 words.”

    I don’t know if we can make some inputs or requests as bloggers, but it would be nice for once if we can have a blog asking everyone of all races why they love the opposite race, what got them attracted, what keeps them interested, their experiences etc. etc.

    I see to many Why black women……
    Why white women……
    Why white men…..
    Why black men…..

    I don’t know, I was just throwing some ideas out there hoping it may stick to the wall somehow. After all, you created this for us……


  279. Luna:

    I know that all black people aren’t poor. I also know that all white people aren’t rich, and same with any other race.

    I would like to see someday people get over the ‘assumptions’ and ‘stereotypes’ and see each other as the same. Equal opportunity for all, no matter race or cultural upbringing.

    BTW, I wish more white men actually saw the beauty in black women. I am glad I have finally found the beauty not just on the outside, but inside also. Black women need love too, just like all of us, as well as someone to care for them, be companions and best friends. And NOT just to make a ‘fling’ with a black woman, but to ACTUALLY date and marry them too.

    Maybe someday that will be the case…..I just hope so.

    Take Care


  280. Oh and BTW Lynette:

    “It seems that black women who date out of race are successful, have a career, have a life and just something going for them.”

    I stated Black women who date OUT OF RACE, and NOT WHITE MEN, please stop trying to shove useless words out there for me.

    I don’t need a spokesperson, let alone a very annoying one.


  281. Sorry abagond. I know you had to delete my one post, I’ll try to tone it down next time.


  282. Thank you.


  283. A co-worker told me to watch a show called “Battle of the Bods”. At first, I wasn’t interested because it is kinda tacky, but it is a very interesting, almost social experiment. It is were a panel of 3 guys judge a woman’s looks (of which there are 5 women) in 3 different segments. The first is face, then the women pick a body part (breast or butt) and finally overall appearance.

    There was a marathon so I watch 3 or 4 episodes back to back. It never failed, the black women were always rated the lowest in almost all catagories expect for “butt”. In almost each episode the guys made comments of how the black women looked like men/linebackers and they seemed disgusted by them. But when it came to the butt, they were a little kinder in their judgements. It was really kind of sad to watch, but that reflects society in some ways. It seems that some people think the best thing about a black women is the butt, which is an insult. The most disturbing part is that even some of the black men where pertetuating the harsh attitude toward the women. It was sad to watch.


  284. Islandgirl:

    I feel and understand where you are coming from.

    You have to remember, the MEDIA is the key player in this. They have tried to put down the strength and beauty of a black woman for so long and to much avail.

    It’s unfortunate people maybe too stupid to look past the media types, and actually look at those women individually. The media tries to play the card as black women are the ugliest and most unwanted race of women on the face of this planet.

    I really don’t get it. Me being a white man I can honestly say, for myself, that black women are the most beautiful women of all races. Does that mean I hate white women? Hecks no. I will always love my white women.

    Black women just have it going for me, and they deliver in all phases and aspects that no other woman could possibly do.

    Please don’t pay attention to the media. It will only cause hurt. I just want to let you know that black women are adored my ALL races of men, it’s just a matter of time people wake up from the devilish character the media portrays black women, and see the true gem that they are.

    Later


  285. islandgirl:

    Wow, what an interesting show! I agree with Azrazyel. I think most black women look better than most white women. But if you are brainwashed by Hollywood, then you will think white women are better looking in general.


  286. on Wed 12 Aug 2009 at 11:14:59 Truth B. Told

    But if you are brainwashed by Hollywood, then you will think white women are better looking in general.

    So basically you believe that people who don’t see the world your way are compromised mentally? Why can’t someone have a different aesthetical taste without being “brainwashed”.

    FWIW, I believe that beauty is an individual trait, not a group one.


  287. Some men prefer Hollywood beauty because it is their natural preference – it is what they would have liked anyway. But some men are brainwashed. That sounds extreme but I believe it is true.

    It goes something like this in very rough numbers:

    33% of men do not prefer Hollywood beauty
    33% of men prefer it naturally
    33% of men prefer it because they have been brainwashed.

    We know there is brainwashing going on because Hollywood’s idea of beauty keeps changing and yet most men seem to go for it anyway.

    For example, in the 1950s and 1960s it was women with nice curvy figures; now it is thin, underfed-looking women (yes, you can tell which I like). Some because it is what they have always liked, some because Hollywood has made it seem like something beautiful.

    Admittedly, “brainwashed” might be too strong of a word since most of the men in question were probably fence-sitters to begin with. If they had strong preferences against the Hollywood standard of beauty they would not have been affected.


  288. You ladies should move to England or France. Your beauty is fully appreciated here and you will not be associated with the ghetto. It seems I can’t go more than a few yards here in London without tripping over a BW with a WM and even more so in Paris.


  289. It’s not just men who buy into this. The twist of that show “Battle of the Bods”, I forgot to mention, is that the women has to rank the ladies in the order that they think the men would rate them and they win money if they are correct. So the women also ranked the black ladies last. In one show there were two black women and guess what their rankings were – 4 and 5 from both the women and men.

    One of the women got upset with the black women and told her that she has “nappy hair”.

    If you want to see an honest, non-politically correct and harsh way black women are viewed, this show does just that. It will probably always be that way.


  290. islandgirl:

    “It’s not just men who buy into this. The twist of that show “Battle of the Bods”, I forgot to mention, is that the women has to rank the ladies in the order that they think the men would rate them and they win money if they are correct. So the women also ranked the black ladies last. In one show there were two black women and guess what their rankings were – 4 and 5 from both the women and men.

    One of the women got upset with the black women and told her that she has “nappy hair”.

    If you want to see an honest, non-politically correct and harsh way black women are viewed, this show does just that. It will probably always be that way.”

    But of course when you keep watching the media, you will always get the impression that black women are the undesirables.

    If you can ever turn away from that, you may see the actual ‘reality’ of what some of us in here, and in the world ‘truly’ think about black women.

    Negativity draws negativity.

    Positivity only shows it’s true meaning.

    In other words……

    stop watching reality shows.


  291. islandgirl,
    Azrazyel is correct in stating that in the REAL WORLD BW are MORE APPRECIATED than in the ANTI-BW HATING media world.

    Reality shows are NOTROIOUS for TRASHING the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY of BW. Of course, the LIES, MYTHS, AND STEREOTYPES being promoted by the media and American culture need to be DESTROYED.

    One way to DESTROY these lies is to stop watching the ANTI-BW media and BOYCOTT the advertisers who SPONSOR this ANTI-BW GARBAGE. The second way is for BW/PRO-BW people to gain control of the media that is produced and create ALTERNATIVE programs that show a TRUTHFUL/POSITIVE image of BW.


  292. I don’t watch that show at all. I just watched that one marathon and had enough. But the reality is, that most people don’t stop watching those shows. I think that show does reflect reality to a certain extent. Where I’m from, black women are viewed in this way, that’s why my co-worker told me to watch it to begin with. She’s fed up with this way of thinking. It’s not just a matter of turning off the T.V.


  293. islandgirl:

    “don’t watch that show at all. I just watched that one marathon and had enough. But the reality is, that most people don’t stop watching those shows. I think that show does reflect reality to a certain extent. Where I’m from, black women are viewed in this way, that’s why my co-worker told me to watch it to begin with. She’s fed up with this way of thinking. It’s not just a matter of turning off the T.V.”

    Let me ask you,

    Does it matter that much what you deem as ‘everyone’ thinks? Really?

    Or is it more important to find someone who doesn’t deem you in that manner?

    I could care less if many people think that I am undesirable.

    All that matters to me is that ‘ONE’ individual who sees me for me, and not by your experiences/watching the media. Your letting that perception get in your head, all I can say is stop it!

    Maybe you are focusing on the negativity a little too much, and letting that influence your thinking and feelings. Therefore, it seems ‘YOU’ feel ‘EVERYONE’ thinks black women are undesirable.

    I will tell you this:

    Maybe if you try and look for the ‘positive’ things such as that pertaining to your questions, thoughts, feelings and speculation, it just may be that you will find the true answers that are locked inside your heart. Open up a little bit….

    Like I said, negativity draws negativity.

    Try giving positivity a chance and you might just find some solace and reasoning that you are desired by ‘ALL’ races of men.

    Good luck


  294. Hey, I am not gay or anything, but I happen to go on line to find the website you guys were talking about “Battle of the Bods” and there was a link for this website.

    It’s called “Beautiful Fit Black Women (in case this website does not work). I love fitness and are extremely proud to see other black women take charge of their health. It takes a lot of commitment and discipline. I believe the problem is all of the negative sublimal messages black women receive on a daily basis year after year (starting at birth) surrounding our physical appearance. The black community is saturated with unhealthy environments that promotes drugs, alcohol abuse, and sexual promiscuity. Combine these factors with lack of quality health foods in our neighborhoods (some supermarkets only carry junk which is a problem for many black women who more than likely do not own a car) and the notion that if we exercise, we will mess up our weave, perm, etc. It is a vicious and crazy cycle.

    Well anyway, check out this website and see how I believe many of us could look or come pretty close if we decided to take better care of ourselves, spritually, emotionally and physically.


  295. “You ladies should move to England or France. Your beauty is fully appreciated here and you will not be associated with the ghetto.”

    Gotta agree here. Definitely better off in Europe.

    I was watching some European movies lately and was struck by how often the love interest was a black woman. But the thing that startled me the most (that I hadn’t noticed when living over there) was that in none of the movies is the fact that she’s black part of the storyline. It doesn’t even get mentioned.
    Over here it seems like if there’s a BW as a main character it’s because she’s black.


  296. This is all really interesting. As an upper middle-class, black-American woman of multi-racial descent, I ran into this page, because I was thinking a lot about race and relationships and did some googling.

    It is funny to read some of the generalizations and see some of my own observations and feelings observed.

    I, too, have noticed that a lot of “dark,” “natural sisters” are getting loads of attention and love from white men who come from similar socio-economic status. I LOVE THIS!!!

    Clearly, not everyone is the same, but I have totally observed that lots of black men go for “lighter,” more eurocentric looking women with longer, straighter hair. And, I think, the body shape thing is mainly a class issue amongst black men now. Most black men who are highly educated/professional want thinner women who “don’t look black.” Other black men still appreciate the curvier shape, but have the colorism issues.

    However, my “skinny, black” sister’s good fortune in this respect is my loss…. I’m a dead ringer for Lisa Bonet and used to be thinner, but now have a “thick” shape. Black men from the lower-middle class love me, but it is because I am “light skinded” and have “good hair.” This is so frustrating for me, because it smacks of the brain-washing so many black Americans became prey to when it comes to Eurocentric ideals… And, honestly, no matter how nice these guys might be, I know if I looked “more black” they wouldn’t be into me… And they don’t have the level of education that I do, nor do we share certain socio-economic traits and values.

    Upper-middle class/professional black men seem to have taken on the preferences of their white American counterparts…. That is super-thin and E.B.B. (everything but black).

    White men, on the other hand, are not interested, because I am not thin and I don’t have the exotic high cheekbones and almond shaped eyes that they find attractive in women who look like Kerry Washington, Halle Berry, Gabrielle Union or Sanaa Lathan. However, they are usually the men who have more in common with me, aside from professional black men.

    I’ve also found that the white American men who dated me were always worried about what other people were going to think, introducing me to family and what any potential children would look like. My best experiences in dating ANYONE – black, white, purple or green – has been with white European men. Generally speaking, even though most of them adore the darkest berries best, they have less race issues than American men of any color… Colorstruck black men annoy me as much as terrified, prejudiced white men. AND they are educated, cultured and charming.

    However, I’m stuck here in the States and my profession would make it difficult for me to find work in Europe :(


  297. Agreed on Europe and the above poster’s remark on euro films.
    Born and raised in Montreal here, French speaking NOT African-Amercian, but black nonetheless ;) and living in NYC now. I moved here in an effort to jump start my career.
    I must say that as a foreigner, I am ashamed of America’s racial state. Then again, I was not raised here but I am quite in shock, indeed. Americans should really travel more as i feel it would help to expand their conscience. This is the 21st century isn’t it so? It did not take me long to “feel” that difference compared to when I walk around the streets of Montreal, London, Paris, Amsterdam or Stockholm, where I have seen many IR couples and received many smiles and clear interest signs from men… who are simply looking and wanting to get to know this pretty girl walking by or sitting at the bar, regardless of her skin color.
    This clearly is an area where the US is not avant-garde.


  298. peau d’or: Thank you for the beautiful, wonderful interesting comment! It did not hurt that you mostly agreed with me ;-)


  299. My pleasure,
    I appreciate the forum, I find it very ironic for me to find someone who happened to make the same observations about IR/ BW&WM that I did…:-)


  300. I just happened to stumble upon your website, and I’ve been reading it all night. Your posts (and your readers’ comments) are very thought-provoking.

    Although I can see why some people feel your post is over-simplifying things, I will say that for the most part I agree with you. I am 5’3” and 110lbs, and I’ve always attracted way more White guys than Black ones. People say I have a “big butt for a skinny girl”, but on a whole Black men seem to see me as too thin for them. I’m also brown-skinned, and people say I have the girl-next-door look going on, so I am definitely not “exotic” lol.

    On top of that, one thing that has come up in the comments but that you didn’t go into detail on in your post was the personality/demeanor factor. When I was younger, (Black) people would often say the whole “You act White” crap, and now that I attend a prestigious university that is over 80% White I feel like White people find me more…”acceptable” than other Black people. Some people act like they are scared of Black people in general, but not of me. I have a feeling it’s partially a “You aren’t like the others” mentality, though no one’s ever said anything like that to my face.


  301. Black&German,sylphide,and peau d’or,
    Thanks for reminding us of a FACT I have repeatedly stated on BW Empowerment blogs.

    BW are viewed in a MORE POSITIVE, RACE NEUTRAL manner by MOST European WM than they are by American WM.

    Also, MOST European WM have a higher appreciation for the BEAUTY, HUMANITY, and FEMININITY of BW than American WM. That’s why there are more BW/WM marriages in Europe than in the U.S.

    Things are slowly beginning to change in America, but hopefully, SOON, BW will be viewed in a MORE POSITIVE, RESPECTFUL way by MOST American WM (and American society/media)as they are by MOST European WM.


  302. its not all men that like black women with light skin. men are different and have different preferences, maybe it all comes from the enviroment they grew up in.


  303. Well, of course it comes from the environment. That’s the whole point! The environment here is poisonous.

    I hardly even thought about race over there but as soon as I came back it hit me in the face. Not to say that living as an American in Europe during “Operation Freedom” was exactly pleasant either, mind you. But at least nobody described me as an Oreo. And we’ve got Obama now, so it’s okay. ;0

    My family moved to the States for economic (my husband makes much more money here) and personal reasons (my parents live here) but I’ve already discussed moving back to Europe when the kids are a bit older. I don’t want them to develop this kind of race-obsession. It’s unhealthy and it permeates everything here.

    I also miss the mixing of the races over there. Maybe I lived and traveled in interracial Nirvana (there are parts of the continent and even in Germany that aren’t as nice) but the people weren’t generally segregated by race like they are here. To tell the truth, other than in the biggest cities, there just weren’t enough minorities around for them to segregate themselves.

    Interracial marriage isn’t just common, it’s the NORM.


  304. But, strangely, what I miss most is black women being described as “beautiful” and “attractive”. That’s it. “Pretty for a black girl” is such an insult. And if I have ONE MORE PERSON tell me that I was lucky to get “good hair” I’ll scream!

    I’m glad I have this blog to vent to. I think I’m going to need it in the next couple of years. Abagond, keep it up!


  305. You have good hair? Wow, you’re lucky ;-)


  306. At nearly 50 year, no one has ever said to me, “… for a black girl.” I think I just scare the hell out of some people.

    I’m a dignified black woman with a vocabulary. ;)


  307. I actually cut it all off a month ago Halle-style and let the curls go wild. My husband loves it.

    The most amazing thing about the “Pretty for a black girl” comments is that I don’t even really look black. White people, especially, sometimes know me for months before finding out I’m black (when I mention it).

    Black people, on the other hand, have like Africa-radar, or something. And Hispanics often speak Spanish to me in the street. No hablo español!

    What the comments really mean is: “You’re pretty because you look white.” Have you ever noticed how white people don’t want to claim any black person unless they’re really good looking, intelligent, or talented?
    And then it’s: “Well I heard that he’s/she’s mixed with white. (200 years ago) That explains it.” And how often have we read, “Halle Berry is good-looking but that’s because she’s practically white.” Umm… no. My daughter is practically white. Halle Berry is black or biracial. She’s certainly not white. She’s not even light. She’s actually really dark.

    Anyway, I just ran into a really entertaining BW expat’s blog about living in Paris, France. And in one of the comments she posts this:

    “…I will say that everywhere I look there are European men married to black women of all shades, shapes and sizes with a gang of kids to boot. LOL I have a lot of European men approach me; but I am VERY picky and quirky. LOL… I guess the answer to your question is YES, european (and other men) love black women, want to date us and marry us. Many black women marry european men here, it’s everywhere I look. If you’re an average black woman (hell, or even a below-average black women) and want to date/marry a european man you will have no problems finding a willing partner.”

    https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=7303306207263559925&postID=1290579968897667570

    On the other hand, in her blog she notes that the French treat her well (usually) because she’s AMERICAN. If she were from Morocco, it’d be a different story.
    I have to say the same. The only times I was treated badly in Germany was when they mistook me for a Turkish girl. And I remember listening to two German guys at a cafe discussing me and one said to his friend, “She looks good but you have to be careful. Those Turkish guys don’t like you messing with their women.” before they got up and left.
    In her blog she mentions racism a lot but I think it’s more xenophobia, otherwise her American passport wouldn’t make a difference.


  308. Are all of my comments being moderated now? I’m definitely having trouble posting.


  309. That long comment of yours (#314) got caught in my spam filter. Not sure why. It may have been that long and spammy-looking link you had in it.

    Comments only get moderated if they have more than two links or have certain bad words:

    http://abagond.wordpress.com/comment-policy/


  310. LOL@Black&German…
    “Africa Radar”

    It’s because we know what WE look like.
    White people often look through us, not at us. They don’t care about us because we don’t matter.
    We have to pay attention to them because they are the majority. It’s a safety precaution.
    W.E.B DuBois called it “Double Consciousness” — being aware of your own people’s experience, as well as those of other groups, plus looking at yourself through other groups’ eyes.


  311. alegra88:

    “White people often look through us, not at us. They don’t care about us because we don’t matter.”

    Is that what you truly believe? Or is your mind too disillusioned to let you truly think that your statement isn’t even a spec of possibility within the true complex that other white’s don’t discriminate?

    I mean that’s kind of an insult to us white people who actually care for black people, and all people as a whole.

    It would be kind of stupid of me to claim that all blacks live on welfare with ten kids with a ghetto attitude. I certainly know not all black people are like that.

    Maybe somebody needs some reorganizing of their thought process.


  312. Well, count me in as someone who needs his thought process reorganized, because I agree with her.

    While it may not be true as an absolute statement – something that is true for all white people all of the time under all conditions – it certainly seems that way at least some of the times, more times than it should.


  313. Azrazyel ….
    I know not ALL white people fit into this particular way of being. Truly, I know that…
    But history shows that this has been the case, as abagond said, more times than it should it should.
    That’s all…
    Don’t take offense. It’s reality.
    Glad you like us, though. :P :D


  314. alegra88:

    “Azrazyel ….
    I know not ALL white people fit into this particular way of being. Truly, I know that…
    But history shows that this has been the case, as abagond said, more times than it should it should.
    That’s all…
    Don’t take offense. It’s reality.
    Glad you like us, though.”

    I apologize if I seemed to lash out at you.
    Maybe I just didn’t think to myself of your experiences.

    I was just trying to let you know, even through experiences, that all white men are not this way.

    I love black women and I stated before, they are the most beautiful race of women on this planet.

    I truly wish more white men as well as black women would come out of hiding and realize love isn’t restricted to your own race.

    People live off of the media’s ways and immediately assume all to be that way. Some need to toughen up and embrace their true emotions for somebody.

    I pray that someday people will be able to venture out and explore their withheld desires.

    Have a good day


  315. It’s funny about “African Radar”, isn’t it?

    I remember the first time I saw Angelina Jolie in a Tomb Raider preview. I had never heard of or seen her before and I told my (white) boyfriend at the time, “Isn’t it nice to see women of color in major roles now?” And he just looked at me like, “Huh? She’s white.” And I said, “Mostly, yes. Of course. But you can tell she’s mixed with SOMETHING. True white women don’t look like that.” It wasn’t just the lips, it was the whole package.

    I had the same reaction to Mariah Carey back in the day. Come on, every black person who looked at her knew immediately.

    And Wentworth Miller… it’s so obvious!


  316. Azrazyel…
    It’s cool, don’t worry!!!!

    YOU have a nice day TOO! :D


  317. Black&German….
    Yeah I know, something’s up with Jolie. She’s quite ethnic.
    And Mariah IS black, for sure. Did other people really doubt that???


  318. I wrote a book on this very subject. Go to my page and read an excerpt. Or reach me on Facebook


  319. The Book is entitled Bay Minette. Go to bayminette.blogspot.com. or Google whohub.

    Rose Blue


  320. Mariah Carey has been dogged by questions about her race all along:

    http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/11/21/the-blackness-of-mariah-carey/


  321. I would like to add my opinion about the ‘suppose’ love European WM have for BW. As a BW in the UK I do not see this love and appreciation for BW’s beauty that everyone is raving about. In reality BW beauty is ignored and marginalized within the mainstream media and society at large.
    The standard model of beauty in the UK is the Blonde, blue eyed woman and most WM and BM in the UK view this is the ultimate beauty. Some WM are even said that when they’re spoken about their like for BW their white friends found it ‘odd’ and will say WW are better.

    If a BW is highlighted in the mainstream UK, it’s usually negative for example Naomi Campbell being arrested or some reality TV star behaving badly.
    Even singer/TV presenter Mica Paris wrote an article last year saying that BW are not appreciated for their beauty and that they’re rarely used to promote beauty products in the UK but are used in other parts of Europe such as France and Italy.
    If you do see a BW/WM relationship on TV/Film in the UK is usually mixed-raced with European features but rarely do you see a dark skinned BW with typical West African feature billed as hot or desirable.
    I also like to add that there is way more BM/WW relationships but not as many as BW/WM in the UK, the statistics back this up.
    My outlook is very different from the African American women posting here because I know how British racism works and the ways BW and black people are viewed in this society.


  322. It seems like Britain is more like America than Germany on this one.


  323. Mica Paris’s article on L’Oreal whitewashing Beyonce and the absence of BW in beauty advertisements:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1042675/Beauty-brand-LOreal-accused-whitewashing-Beyonce.html


  324. Super. Thanks.


  325. Yes, Britain is very much like America but the Americans talk more openly about race than the British, that the only difference. Also Britain has a long and unforgettable involvement in the slave trade and the effects of that is still discuss to this day in the UK.


  326. “It seems like Britain is more like America than Germany on this one.”

    I think it depends on where in the UK one is. Perhaps.
    I mean, East Germany isn’t exactly a bastion of tolerance, either.
    It’s like talking about America and then having two people comment, one from California and the other from Mississippi.


  327. The only European countries that can be meaningfully compared to the US for this are the UK and France as they have significant black populations. Black women will of course get attention in Germany as they are an exotic novelty there.
    Not saying that WM in UK/France are totally open to dating BW, but much more so than in most of the US in my experience. The races are less segregated than in the US and there is not such a big and isolated ghetto underclass generating a bad image for BW.


  328. on Sun 16 Aug 2009 at 22:59:53 mynameismyname

    Thank you BlackgirlUK,

    I also was confused by past posters’ portrayal of Europe as this tolerant, interracial-friendly utopia. The UK is just as racist as the US. The blacks there say the same thing about the racial situation as their US counterparts.

    The western world as a whole is pretty anti-black.


  329. NO ONE is claiming that European WM are TOTALLY NON-RACIST towards BW but rather that, IN COMPARISON to MOST American WM, MORE European WM view BW’s beauty in a MORE POSITIVE light and are MORE WILLING to SERIOUSLY date and/or marry them. Of course, ALL majority White countries need to RID themselves of RACIST, ANTI-BLACK attitudes/behaviors.


  330. I do agree that i hardly see WM with BW and i’m from London but i was surprised to see that the new Miss England 2009 is a black women her name is Rachel Christie and it was 52 contestants and about 3 ethnic people between them with all the white blonde women. so i do think that says something about how england is changing. but we have to remember that black people are also the ones that keep using the slavery card. i have a lot of white,east and west asian,black friends maybe because i’m in the younger generation but i still remember seeing how girls in my class seperated themselves the rude girls were mainly black and the white girls just mingled with whoever they wanted to be with. that’s why i’m not hugely surprised that BM and WW are more open to WW becasue of the stereotype of the black rude girl that means every black girl is rude.
    I hope i don’t offend anyone but the majority of the rude black people I have met have been Jamacian, African black people are more quiet and have manners


  331. I agree with snowflake and laromana on this one. Also, remember it’s different to be a black African in Europe than to be a black American. The passport does make a difference.

    And remember:

    “As of 2001, 2% of all marriages in the United Kingdom are inter-ethnic. Despite the UK’s having a much lower proportion of non-white population (9%) than the United States, the frequency of mixed marriages is as common.”

    But German men really are the most open to it. Actually, no. It’s just that they don’t really care one way or the other. It’s a non-issue for most of them (neo-Nazis excluded, of course).

    I talked about this with my husband this weekend and he thinks American men are either crazy or closet homosexuals. He doesn’t understand the concept of putting women into categories of “acceptable race” and “unacceptable race” and then parsing them for attractiveness. For him, women come in three forms: “I wouldn’t shag her.”, “I’d shag her.”, and the category I’m in: “God help me, she’s so hot that I’m drooling.” That is all. LOL!

    And he swears his German friends feel the same way. Some of them like dark women, some like pale ones, and some just like women. For them it’s more a question of aesthetics than race, sort of like saying that you prefer tall women or ones with large breasts. Interestingly, he says that none of his friends or relatives have ever even mentioned my being black. That surprised me.

    I used to complain about racism when I lived in Germany and I know black Brits who did the same as well. But now that I’ve moved back I see that it’s all very relative. It seems worse over here. The stereotypes seem so set in stone.

    On the other hand, we went to a carnival on Sunday and it was like a Miscegenation Party. Really, there were so many mixed-race and inter-ethnic couples (interestingly, the majority where BW/WM but that seems to be a local thing here for demographic reasons) that I wondered if it was some sort of interracial holiday.

    It was strange and so ironic that I was tempted to take a picture of it: at one point I looked over and noticed a drop-dead good-looking WM holding a mixed-race baby and standing next to what I presumed to be the mother (also attractive). Then I noticed that they were standing in front of a big booth selling Confederate Flags and banners with “The South Will Rise Again” scrawled on them.
    Welcome to redneck country. *sigh* It seems like a part of the population here has moved on and the rest are fighting tooth-and-nail against progress.

    Anyway, women: German guys, German guys, German guys.
    And they’re the best-looking, especially the Bavarians. But I’m totally biased on that one.

    If nothing else, in Germany I was never exactly starved of romantic opportunities (unlike here, where I am invisible) and none of them EVER had an issue introducing me to their friends and family.

    Although you have to be careful of the ones who want to introduce you to EVERYBODY as if you were a trophy. As in: “I’ve got my cool job, my nice apartment, my Porsche, and my exotic girlfriend.” I dated a guy like that once (except that he had a BMW). He never spent time alone with me, he just wanted to introduce me to every freaking person he knew. Although I got REALLY lucky because one of the myriad people he introduced me to was… my husband! So, all’s well that ends well and all that.


  332. To Indie girl, I found your comments about Jamaicans racist and ignorant. How can you say that Jamaicans black girls are rude and Africans have more manners?
    That is a very backward way of thinking. I’d would expect that from a white person but from a fellow BW that is shameful.
    I’m of Jamaican percentage and I don’t behave like that,it could be because I’m older. When I’m travelling around in London I do see some Black girls behaving badly but I don’t say they all got to be African – that would be stupid. On the issue of slavery some black people do bring it up because commentary to what white people in the UK think about it did happen and they amassed millions on the back of people in the Caribbean. I’m not saying we should keep harping on about it but the negative stereotypes about Black people and BW have their origins from there.


  333. I also say to mynameismyname, thank you for understanding my point of view. I wanted to voice my experiences and what I have seen in the UK. I’m not saying there are no WM who will date BW but BW in the UK have repeatedly said that we are ignore and our beauty is looked down upon in comparison to WW by WM and BM in the UK and this assessment can’t be dismiss. However, uncomfortable it may seem.

    When I have travelled to the US I’ve found BM and WM more open to me because of my British accent and this is probably the same for African-American women in Europe but I’m still interested in finding out about BW experiences in the US.

    I would love Abagond to do a post on how black people who are born and raised in Europe experience everyday racism -It would make a very interesting read!


  334. on Mon 17 Aug 2009 at 21:54:15 mynameismyname

    Yeah, you’re exotic to American men because of the accent. You are different from the pack in their minds. It’s pretty perverse that any black person who isn’t perceived as typically black American in the U.S. is “something special”.


  335. The trouble with a rude Jamaican stereotype, like the Sapphire stereotype for black American women, is that you notice those who fit the stereotype but overlook those who do not. And when white people are ill-mannered it is never because they are white, because whites are seen as individuals not as “white”.


  336. BlackgirlUK said:

    I would love Abagond to do a post on how black people who are born and raised in Europe experience everyday racism -It would make a very interesting read!

    Well, Europe is a bit broad. It has all those diferent countries each with a different history and relationship with Africa.

    But I have done a post on Black France and hope to do one on Black Britain – the two countries where most blacks are.


  337. Like i said BlackgirlUK i didn’t want to offend anyone, but it’s not racist it culture differences and my own experience with them. i didn’t say all as well i said the majority that i know of you seem like a nice person but i’ve been victimised by certain jamacians because i don’t have the stereotypical ghetto attitude (and no it’s not white or any race saying it apart from black) if your nice or friends with someone from a different race your considered an oreo or coconut. Plus because i don’t have a English name which the majority of jamacians do they take the piss out of my name as if I’m from another world. i’m proud of my name and i don’t think people should treat people like that.
    like i said it’s from my own experience there are nice and rude people in all cultures but i can understand from a different races view why they would be put off by BW. temper and attitude is something that needs to be sorted out.


  338. To INDIE GIRL, I understand what you are saying about being victimised by Jamaicans but there was been a long history of animosity, resentment and misunderstanding between the Afro-Caribbeans and Africans since the 1960’s onwards. This comes down to the issue of Cultural difference and history, which includes the long and painful issue of slavery. You must remember when my grandmother first came to this country in the 1950s, there was signs in the windows of houses, pubs etc saying ’No blacks, No Irish and No dogs’. So the Jamaicans and other Afro-Caribbeans were facing physical attacks etc by the hands of white Britions, so this spirit of standing up for yourself was born out of necessary.

    In regards to the issue of some black girls misbehaving, I must say that they are of both African and Afro-Caribbean percentage. I also think that white Londoners are not making the distinction between the two groups because of the lack of cultural understanding and knowledge of black people in the UK.

    I also think to myself why are they behaving like that? and why has this become more common in recent years? unfortunately I feel it comes down to issues of BW/girls being made to feel invisible and marginalized in British society and some of them think the only to gain attention is by behaving in this manner. I’m not excusing this behave but I understand where some of it coming from.
    I also like to add that the media in UK keeps reinforcing negative stereotypes about BW being aggressive, loud, controlling, etc which is fuelling BW hatred. We need to fight this because it can influence how we see each other and how people of other races view us.

    Abagond, I know the subject of Black people in Europe is vast, so focusing on one or two countries such as UK and France is good. If you need any advice on books, articles etc on the Black experience in the UK please let me know.


  339. I have just come to this site and have read all the articles. As for the distiction of skin color or thicker or thiner. I never cared. All i really cared about was attitude and looks. I have lived all over the world, and have had relationships with many difrent races. I do not care about a person race, i care about the person. wether she is black, white, asian, indian. And most of the men that i know that are into inter racial relationships do not care about the race only the person, that she is black is beside the point. It comes down to personalities and attraction.


  340. BlackgirlUK said:

    Abagond, I know the subject of Black people in Europe is vast, so focusing on one or two countries such as UK and France is good. If you need any advice on books, articles etc on the Black experience in the UK please let me know.

    That would be great! You can email me at abagond at gmail.com. Online stuff would be best since it is easier to get to, books second best since I can request them from the library.


  341. Wonderful job on creating and maintaining this site, abagond! I think Black Women are the most underrated bunch of pretty women in the entire world!

    I’m a Desi(from Indian Subcontinent that is) women in CA. Growing up as a teenager I always had a secret desire to date at least one Black man:) My interest in BM eventually led me to this site, strange ha?

    I don’t know what to make of your lists of two groups of women that WM will or won’t date. But then again I can’t read men’s mind that well either :) However, I suggest you consider Tamala Jones into your list of gorgeous BWs.

    I think Hollywood does introduce some really ravishing Black actresses from time to time, but ultimately it’s the movie goers that make the decision who’s hot and who’s not! For example everybody knows who Lucy Liu is, but Tamala is a nobody! In my opinion if there’s any contest, Tamala wins hands down, but 90% of WM would rather prefer Lucy. But hey it’s their world!

    As long as men rule the world, women will be judged (primarily by the dominant group of men)based on their looks, and even that judgment won’t be fair! It used to be blond women, now it’s far-eastern women, very soon this fad will be over and then maybe women from Mars will be the most premium thang!

    So only one thing I can say to BWs, don’t always put yourself down just because men of the ruling class didn’t value your looks! Try to open your mind and you’ll see there are men with all kinds of taste in the good old USA!

    Peace.


  342. fallingWater,
    Thanks for your PRO-BW comments.

    The main fact that abagond has demonstrated on several posts on this blog is that the way BW are viewed/treated by men of ALL RACES in American society has/continues to be influenced greatly by historical ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE (in Hollywood/American media) that has/continues to promote ANTI-BW LIES, MYTHS, and STEREOTYPES that TRASH the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY of BW.

    Also, BW are the ONLY women of ANY RACE in America who have to deal with constantly being DEGRADED, DEMEANED, and DISRESPECTED SOLELY because they are BW.

    Fortunately, despite ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE/HATERS in American, MOST BW don’t “always put ourselves down because men of the ruling class don’t value our looks”. MOST BW tend to view ourselves and our BEAUTY in a POSITIVE light.


  343. FallingWater, Laromana,

    Hear, hear!

    La Reyna


  344. laromana,

    You are welcome!

    I know there are many strong BW out there who “tend to view themselves and their BEAUTY in a POSITIVE light.” My words were directed toward those who are not as strong!

    However, I take issues with your bold statement “BW are viewed/treated by men of ALL RACES in American society has/continues to be influenced greatly by historical ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE (in Hollywood/American media)”.

    Men of ALL Races????? Really???? I believe abagond when he’s presenting the general view/feeling of WM toward BW. But how can anybody make such a statement about men of all other races? You automatically assumed that they will make up their mind by the racial stereotypes presented in the mainstream media?

    Men from Asia/Indian Subcontinent themselves have been the victims of crude negative stereotypes by the media for a long time. You think they enjoy the images of emasculated-nerdy-not-worthy-of-desire Asian men, turban-wearing-funny-sounding-smelly Indians, and gibberish-speaking-terrorism-loving Muslims?

    There is a lot of resentments among Desis/Asians about this and they hardly take media stereotypes on other races seriously! My point is men of other races DO NOT take the exact same view toward Black women as WM do!

    Speaking from my experience, I can assure you Brianna Francisco featured in abgond’s http://abagond.wordpress.com/2007/0/26/race-and-beauty/ thread will be considered beautiful by many Desi men, in fact a lot of those women in his list of ‘BW that WM won’t date’ will also be considered pretty in our eyes! That’s why I am a little surprised reading abagond so confidently say “I cannot see many white men going for Brianna”!

    Of course Asian/Desi men are not immune from the blond-thin ideals of beauty but they will always include some women of their own region and women of other ethnicity in their long list of desired women.

    I know this thread is primarily about IR dynamics between WM and BW. But many posters here and on other threads frequently assume non-White men’s opinion to make their points! That’s disturbing! Unless you are using scientific polls, you can never know how non-White males in the US think, since their voices are NOT reflected ANYWHERE!

    Sorry for the bitchiness, just felt the need to clarify some misconceptions:)
    Peace.


  345. There are a lot of resentments among Desis/Asians about this and they hardly take media stereotypes on other races seriously! My point is men of other races DO NOT take the exact same view toward Black women as WM do!
    *******************************************
    Naturally these types of topics demand generalizations because that is the only way to discus cultural and social phenomena but many groups do take their cue from White society and the actual marriage stats certainly show that non-White men’s preference overwhelmingly favor White women with Asian and Latina women vying for second place. In other words, if a Latino or Asian man had to choose between a White or Black women, statistically, he will choose the White woman with very few actively deciding to choose the Black woman. In fact, Asian Men and White women is a quietly growing pairing in America precisely because of the model minority meme that favors Asian men with higher paying jobs, stability, and intelligence.

    Of course I do appreciate your unique perspective, but I have to disagree that Desi/East Indians are not immune to the pernicious views that inform what race is inferior or superior. I have met plenty of Desi’s who viewed Blacks as beneath them in every respect and they were certainly not eager to date Black women other than as a one off. In addition, East Indians certainly find the model minority meme useful since it usually highlights their positive qualities (they are considered one of the more successful Asian groups across the board) that American society finds a winning combination. Moreover, whatever prejudice they experience in America (and I do understand that it can come from Blacks), they can easily return and integrate back into their culture in India. In fact there is a surge of Brain Gain; due to India’s dynamic economy that has beckoned many Indians to emigrate back home. Black Americans for the most part have to endure right here and have no other home country to sustain them.


  346. I just have a simple statement:

    Why do some black women concern themselves about what white men think about them?

    I mean, if your that worried, then maybe it’s not for you?

    Obviously, you can’t change the viewpoints of many white men.

    Complaining about it will get you nowhere. Find someone who will except you for who you are and quit worrying about what ‘all’ American white men think.

    BTW, I am an American white male. I just sort of had these few questions and thoughts I wanted to get out.

    I don’t mean any disrespect or harm to anybody in anyway.

    I am just curious for the reasoning stated here.

    Thanks!


  347. Azrazyel,

    Some people seem to be overly concern about what others think about them. If you are secure in who you are, people will always be attracted to you.

    I work in sales. I am very particular about my image. But I don’t obsess over how they see me on a personal level.

    It is my confidence which holds their attention.


  348. fallingWater,
    Let me clarify what I meant.

    In America, men of ALL RACES have historically been exposed to ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE and this has NEGATIVELY influenced the way BW are viewed/treated by SOME of these men.


  349. Mayhue,
    Thanks for further clarifying what I meant in the comments I’ve posted above.


  350. Azrazyel,

    I, for one, am not actually concerned about whether WM find me attractive. To tell the truth, I’m only interested in whether my husband finds me attractive.

    But I am interested in the general phenomenon. It speaks volumes about how BW are treated and viewed in this society. It’s almost like a caste situation, KWIM? I rarely experience this myself due to my appearance, but I have so many black female friends and relatives that I still feel effected by all of this.

    And as for south-Asian men: my experience was always that if they had to choose between black and white women they’d prefer… biracial women.

    I also used to hang out with a lot of Puerto Ricans and let me tell you: they are down with the brown. Actually, I think they’d take anything but a Mexican. Their mothers would choke them with their bare hands if they ever brought home a Tejano girl. :-p I am NOT kidding.

    Although I’ve heard that in California and some other states there’s a lot of rivalry between the Hispanics and blacks for economic/territorial reasons. But I think that’s more of a Mexican-thing.


  351. About Hispanic guys:
    You have to remember that a lot of them have “African roots” and feel more culturally-affiliated with black Americans than with white ones. Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, Brazilians, etc.

    Perhaps it is the other way around for Mexican and East Asian men?


  352. on Tue 25 Aug 2009 at 13:52:23 mynameismyname

    Damn near all of the Southeast Asian people I’ve seen and known “stick to their own” romantically.

    Few date/marry interacially. I think they do so for religious and cultural reasons.

    I agree w/ B&G about Latin American males. I see the same thing although again, the majority “stick with their own” nationality. PR men mostly stick with PR women. I can respect and understand that.


  353. Yes, SA people rarely date interracially or even inter-ethnically. My point was just that I doubt that they would prefer WW.


  354. Thanks for the replies.

    I really don’t care about the Asian/Hispanic/Puerto Rican people.

    Nowhere did I mention that.

    I was asking black women who are interested in white men why they worry about what we think or stereotype them to be.

    And if dating white men maybe isn’t just for them if they are so concerned to begin with.

    I didn’t ask about Asians, Hispanic nor Puerto Ricans, only people who I am pertaining to.

    Thanks.


  355. One more thing I forgot to add:

    Black&German I don’t need your responses in this question since you don’t relate to what I am talking about.

    Sorry, not trying to be rude, just trying to filter out people who don’t pertain to my question.

    Thanks.


  356. South Asian men and black women:

    The South Asian men I have known are probably affected most by their own colourism, which Hollywood only strengthens. That means they take it for granted that black women are not all that good looking: they are too dark.

    Their heads turn when a beautiful blonde walks into the room; not so when it is a beautiful black woman.

    In my experience seeing a South Asian man dating a black woman is extremely rare, one of the rarest pairings there are.

    Marrying black women seems to be completely out of the question for family reasons. Also, many of them have arranged marriages and black women just are not part of that network.


  357. Note: “white men” in this post means white American men.


  358. on Wed 26 Aug 2009 at 00:19:43 mynameismyname

    I know a black woman who is married to a South Asian man. But he’s from Guyana. Said man’s brother was also married to a black woman.

    I’ve known of other instances of South Asian men and black women together but they were hardly the majority as Aba pointed out.

    Yet, for what it is worth, of the small amount of South Asian/Black marriages in the U.S., there are more S. Asian male/Black female pairings than otherwise. This is according to Census stats.

    I also agree that South Asians and East Asians are indeed the most colorist ethnicties of people. They take it to new heights.


  359. on Wed 26 Aug 2009 at 00:21:18 mynameismyname

    Also, when you say “they take it for granted that black women are not that good looking”, are you talking of a specific mentality or your own personal assessment? Just curious.


  360. Abagond succinctly states my own observations—in most instances they would actually see a white person before they see a Black person and I am talking about the well educated set in places like New York, Boston and Chicago who thrive on the model minority meme. They are notoriously racist and colorist and they are quite vocal about not wanting any kind of Black into their family.

    In regards to South Asians in Guyana, they have a slightly different heritage as does East Indians that migrated to Trinidad and Jamaica—thus there is a kind of syncretism history that is absent in other places thus they may be more inclined to engage with Blacks because they are the minorities in these countries dealing with a Black majority. I have cousins who have a East Indian grandmother and their mother is half, and they are more inclined to mix with Blacks to some extent and they are less likely to be hung up around Blacks.

    In regards to Hispanics, White Cubans are notoriously elitist and racist—having lived among them for some years. It would be an insult to them if you told them that they have Black blood since they are the first to announce their pure Castilians blood. Also Puerto Ricans may have some commonality with Blacks but they would claim Taino blood then claim Black and I have seen the same thing with Dominicans, some of who are way darker than a lof Black Americans.

    was asking black women who are interested in white men why they worry about what we think or stereotype them to be.

    And if dating white men isn’t just for them if they are so concerned to begin with.

    Because women are often valued by how they look more than their intelligence, good heart, or values or anything else. And when you have a generation of Black women that grow up around and interact with other whites in school and the workplace, that is unprecedented then anywhere in American history, and they pretty much share the same values, there may be the expectation that they are on equal footing to Whites, Asians, and Hispanics. It should be noted that Blacks are a minority so they are going to have far more experiences dealing with White people than the other way around. And they are going to interact, become attracted and have the same kinds of dreams of stability and heath and home just like any other woman in America and they may see that future with someone White.

    However, time and time and time, it is told through media and America’s culture that physically Black women are at the bottom, even though in reality that is not the case. The perception that Black women area ugly no matter what unless they are mixed or not tainted by being Black American culture is a hurdle that is difficult to cross for the average Black woman who believes that they have the same rights and should be valued just as much as the other races of women.

    Thus since a woman’s value is still in how she looks, what better way to devalue and dehumanize a group of women who are deemed beneath a White standard than to brand them undesirable, ugly, and worthless.


  361. Thank you Mayhue. Those are some answers that I was seeking.

    Unfortunately, most of the stuff you said was true. Not as in black women being ugly or undesirable, but the way the media has and still portrays them as such.

    Many white males see that and immediately disassociate themselves from wanting to be around it. Maybe it is ignorance, but I think a majority of it stems from stigma i.e. friends, family, relatives and public outlook.

    I have a feeling that will never change. Maybe over time it will, as I know maybe it has a little bit so far, but if and when it does it is going to be quite a while.

    Kind of saddening I can’t seem to want to date a black woman without knowing the fact I will face prejudice of some sort.

    I am a strong individual, but sometimes I wish we all could choose to love whomever we so please without the garbage that is tagged along with it.

    I guess I am hoping for a perfect world?

    I am still interested, and from weighing the pro’s and con’s, in the end it might just all work out and I certainly hope my concerns will be proven false.

    Thanks again for your comments and take care.

    Az


  362. on Wed 26 Aug 2009 at 03:46:35 kerryisgorgeous

    Here’s an idea all you ignorant racists: Stop equating acting feminine with “acting white” and calling acting loud, rude, vulgar and masculine “acting black”. Abagond, I thought you were above that. In case you haven’t noticed, white men like feminine women. They’re not racist like black men who care about skin color and hair. They don’t care about the color of a woman as long as she’s beautiful and feminine. This is why Asian women are really popular with white men, because the majority of them are sweet and ladylike, have good morals and manners, and act and dress feminine and attractive. And white men will also date black women, like the ones you listed, who fit those same descriptions. If we must go with stereotypical labels you could say such black women are acting “yellow”, not white. I’ve also noticed many white men aren’t adverse to thicker curvy-but-not-overweight figures either (even if the magazines send a different message), it’s the unflattering outfits and rude gross behavior that turns them off. You don’t have to act stereotypically ghetto to act black, and acting feminine doesn’t make you less black. Black women have the right to be women too without being labeled.


  363. Im a White boy that loves black women. I have from a young kid, but ive never discriminated against my own. Ive dated many white girls and black girls. I love the darkness in a black girl. I love how good they are in bed. It also seems to me that a black woman appreciates a white man more than a white girl. Black females seem to have more drive and determination, and theyre bodies are amazing. Thats my basic stand point as a white male.

    p.s i like all black girls not just light skinned black girls


  364. Mynamismyname said:

    Also, when you say “they take it for granted that black women are not that good looking”, are you talking of a specific mentality or your own personal assessment? Just curious.

    Both: from what they say – light skin is huge on the South Asian beauty scale – and noticing how they react to black women. It is like they barely consider women past a certain degree of darkness.


  365. kerryisgorgeous:

    Good point: “acting black” and “acting white” are a poor choice of words. In the post I changed it to “she will be thin and not act too ‘ghetto’, but more like a middle-class white woman.”.


  366. Hmm…
    Now that I think more about it, I guess what you say about SA men might be true. Most of the ones I’ve known where from other countries than India. As in, they were of Indian-ethnicity but were citizens of a different country like France, Germany, Mauritius, South Africa, Madagascar, etc. Maybe that changes their veiwpoint.

    “The perception that Black women are ugly no matter what unless they are mixed or not tainted by being Black American culture”

    The second part of that is interesting. I’ve noticed that as well. If you were to take two identical-looking BW and introduce one as Brazilian and the other as “from Mississippi” I think the first one would be considered more attractive. But that’s just a hypothesis.

    White Cubans surely are a class for themselves. But the majority of Cubans aren’t white, just the ones you see in the States.
    That’s something else weird. I’ve heard white American and German men talking about beautiful Cuban women but when the Americans are talking they mean women who look like this:

    or this:

    And the Germans mean women who look like this:

    or this:


  367. kerryisgorgeous

    Well said, I agree with you.

    Where can I meet more of these yellow-acting black girls? They sound just perfect.


  368. NO ONE women is the epitome of femininity or lack of femininity BASED ON RACE ALONE.

    That’s why the ANTI-BW STEREOTYPES that generalize NEGATIVE character traits to ALL BW or PRO-AW STEREOTYPES that generalize POSITIVE character traits to ALL AW are RACIST.

    There are women with feminine and unfeminine character traits in EVERY RACE. ANY woman of ANY RACE deserves to have her beauty/femininity judged on an INDIVIDUAL basis instead of STEREOTYPES.


  369. kerryisgorgeous I can’t agree with most of your comment at 369, the black does not equal ghetto part yes but thats about it.

    You are aware of the stereotypes(atleast some) about race but turn away from the ones about gender. Are you aware of the conditioning women had to endure and why so many of us bend over backwards to be accepted by men (just like many blacks would do backflips for white acceptance)? It is the “white man’s” concept of beauty that largely influenced most black men’s dream woman, so don’t forget who put that ideal into heavy rotation, I know a lot of people don’t like hearing that but that is fact, sorry.

    I’m a black woman, who prefers black men but have dated white men. Black men care about skin and hair and white men don’t? Are you kidding me? The history between the two groups squashes that and there are plenty white men current day who fit your description of black men’s mindset but there are plenty (black and white) who do not. Growing up in the Caribbean (and yes there are color issues there), most of the interracial marriages I’ve seen (and this is in retrospect as I really wasn’t concerned with that until I came to the U.S) have been between WM and BW, mostly Italian men and their families went back and forth between the island and Italy. And there were plenty of black men who are with black women, close cut hair, non-extension braids, dreadlocks and all. Most, if not all men like beautiful and feminine women but what really is the definition of those two words? Its a slippery slope and you’ll quickly find yourself surrounded by a million stereotypes and a very limited philosophy on life.

    I’ve become aware of the American perspective on race and how its used to maintain the machine, the “do good” image of the Asian is quite handy to gloss up a white patriarchy and make generations of segregation, brutality and overt prejudice seem unimportant. This is the main or probably the only reason why its OK for white men to be with Asian women..to an extent. So I guess I’m not surprised that you made such a blanket statement about Asian women. This country has beginnings of overt discrimination, its still largely imbalanced (and blacks were the minority group who kicked and shouted about it the most and the people who don’t want to “lose their country” don’t like that) and its now a very impersonal society who’s never really took a good look in the mirror and its residents cannot avoid the media in all its forms and all its poisonous messages about how bad it is to be black especially for a woman. Without these quiet kicks in the face, white supremacy will not work!


  370. on Wed 26 Aug 2009 at 23:17:57 mynameismyname

    ^^^
    Gen’s comment is the truth.

    I have also noticed that. Outside of the US, black/white relationships usually are composed of BW/WM.

    Except in the US (and perhaps, the UK). Very interesting.


  371. “I have also noticed that. Outside of the US, black/white relationships usually are composed of BW/WM.

    Except in the US (and perhaps, the UK). Very interesting.”

    I live in America and have NEVER seen a white man with a black woman in all of my 28 years of living.

    For some reason, I still find it hard to believe when people say it is much ‘better’ in Canada, United Kingdom, or any other European countries.

    I think the damage from the past in America is well done to the point to which it cannot and will never be overcome.

    This country was embedded with racism, and it will only continue to sprout from the seeds that were sown.

    I’ve been to a few Interracial dating sites, and I ask myself of how many of these people ACTUALLY go on to date or marry. I tend to think few as by witnessing the minuscule amount of evidence before me.

    Is this really worth it? Am I wasting my time trying to ‘find’ a black woman? It’s rather frustrating especially where I live which contains hardly any IR couples.

    This question I continue to ponder, and unfortunately for me, I fear this is a big waste of time. I know I am interested, but I have been waiting out from others because of this.

    Sorry for the ranting here, I just feel I have some frustrations in need of venting.

    Az


  372. I find it difficult to believe you’ve never seen a WM/BW relationship, even casually. I was married to two WM. Besides my husbands, I have dated one BM. I’m not sure why I don’t meet the kind of black men I grew up with.

    I have dated, almost exclusively, white men for the last 10 years. Most WM who date BM are older, self-assured and professionally secure.


  373. I have a few friends dating and married to bw. I do know that their is a some resistance to interacial relationships, but most of the men and women of my aquaintence do not care they look to the person not the color of skin. As we all should


  374. Luna:

    I have no reason to lie.

    “Most WM who date BM are older, self-assured and professionally secure.”

    I don’t pay attention to white men who date black men.


  375. Luna:

    I have no reason to lie.

    “Most WM who date BM are older, self-assured and professionally secure.”

    I don’t pay attention to white men who date black men.

    I do agree with you, but do you not mean BW Instead of BM


  376. oops! Make that Black women


  377. I thought it was a mistake but I wanted to be sure.

    I spent a lot of time with people from all races and worked with people from all races. I do not judge a person by his or her skin color. I was raised to judge a person by their actions and attitudes. I have always thought of myself as a typical american


  378. Just thought of another question.

    Before I do Abagond I have to ask you something.

    Would you consider letting us put a picture of ourselves here online? I know this isn’t a dating site, but it would be nice to see those who I am talking to. (Well,if they decide to anyway.)

    Just a thought Abagond thanks!!

    Anyway, my question was:

    Do Black women view us White men as an ‘option’?

    I always hear, ‘not enough black men’ or ‘black men chasing all the white women’….for the most part it is just not true.

    I guess blacks being the minority, they in certain instances decide to open up to other races for that instance.

    My main concern is:

    I don’t want a black woman to view me as her option. I am nobody’s option, and I see the option factor as an act of desperation?

    Correct me if I am wrong here. I’m not trying to rattle any bones, I just enjoy learning from others.

    How do I tell if a black woman has a TRUE, HONEST and SINCERE attraction to a white man?

    I can say I have a TRUE, HONEST, and SINCERE attraction to black women. (Although I haven’t always been interested while opening myself up within the past year, hence the questions…lol)

    I want it to be mutual. I know how I feel towards black women, but I want solidification that the black woman I may be with or meet sometime has the same exact feel.

    Of course nobody wants to be viewed as an option, many black women may be frustrated because white men aren’t or won’t open up to them esp. from the media and stereotypes.

    I have the same feelings in seeking out true love from physical attraction to white men, as well as everything I can provide for her and she for I.

    Sorry, some of these questions may be stupid but for me it is necessary esp. when I am brand new to this.

    I appreciate all of your feedback, especially from black women.

    Thanks!


  379. Azrazyel, we are all viewed as “options” being treated as one is a different deal I believe lol but I get your point though. True, honest and sincere attraction is left to how the two people handle it but, and this is a big BUT (and this is my personal experience) keep an eye out for racial objectification, the minute someone starts talking about their bad experiences simply to lay groundwork to make sweeping generalizations about X group to express why or how much they’re “into you” that’s a big fat red flag.


  380. Azrazyel:

    A post I wrote that might help you somewhat:

    http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/02/14/exotic-women/


  381. Thanks Abagond.

    It did help me a little bit.

    Now if I can only get clear perception from black women, I think the issue at hand will help me out quite a bit.

    In the end, it’s learning tools of things I need to be aware of of what to do, not to do and what to avoid and not to avoid.

    Thanks again.


  382. Azrazyel,

    If I may be so bold as to answer your question:

    Black women are under INTENSE pressure not to “date out”. Truly. When a black woman says that there are “not enough black men” what she’s REALLY saying is, “This monoracial dating system sucks. I’m going to quit following these outdated rules and date whomever I like.”

    But she’s not allowed to say that because then she’d be viewed as a traitor. So, she makes excuses instead. “Do you know how many black men are incarcerated?” “Black men are all dating white women so why shouldn’t I date white men?” Etc., etc., etc. She has to have a concrete, measurable, statistically-based reason. She’s not allowed to just say, “There’s this cute white guy in accounting that I really like. He seems nice.” Liking him and being attracted to him are not reason enough to “date out”. And it seems the pressure is higher the more “high status” the woman is (highly educated, good-looking, wealthy, etc.).

    I’m married to a German man and I get asked by black people why I “married a white guy”. Sometimes followed by the traditional, “What, black guys aren’t good enough for you?” I have the believable excuse that I was living in Germany for 10 years and black men where in short supply. Although I have gotten the (ridiculous) reply that I should have flown back to the US on vacation every year because they were “sure a black man would want me”. As in, a black man, ANY black man, is better than a quality white man, and I just didn’t try hard enough.

    My black cousin is married to a white American man and she gets ribbed about it all of the time. He’s wealthy, as well, so she gets the “Wow, you married money, huh?” comments all of the time.

    The fact that both of us fell in love with our husbands strikes them as being “not enough of a reason” to actually marry them. They make allowances for me because I was out of the country and for her because he’s rich enough to make up for his being white. But I think they see it as us “rejecting” black men and therefore the entire black race.

    It is sad, but that’s the truth.


  383. In Black American culture women are view as the center of family life. Blacks are less likely to criticize a black man for exercising his option to “date out” than a black woman. Traditionally it is the eldest woman who makes decisions for the family she creates and the family she is born into.

    However if a woman is brave enough to be who she is — making the decision to follow her heart, to make the choice, to find a man whose values mirror hers — there are no “excuses.” She is secure in the choice she has made.

    My family has never questioned my choices in racial terms. I am part hippie/part money-grubbing-capitalist. They just don’t know what to make me. They just learned accept what they don’t always understand. I think my life choices have helped them open up to things they may not have considered before.


  384. Black&German and Luna: Excellent comments! Men are seen more as loose cannons so their decisions are less questioned.


  385. I think the term “loose cannon” is a bit strong. But Black America tends to be more than a bit matriarchal.


  386. exception to the rule: white men who have grown up in a black community & have many black friends or come from a not so middle class background. i’m sure if they went for a woman of colour they would have different expectations.
    But ofcourse white men from a middle class background would prefer a classy & well spoken black women that is acquainted with a lot of white people. eg. Iman.

    I actually disagree that white men prefer thin black women. there are men that prefer curves in women of all races & some white men that like curves (eg. curvy bum) on a white women would like them on a black women too.

    but they do seem to be particular when it comes to facial features. they go the woman with the cute or pretty face. whereas black men seem to care more about the body or like a woman that shows more skin.

    in regards to your pictures I think that whilst not that many white men would go for a bria myles type. i think that sade is seen as beauty to men of all races. i think that white men would also like phylicia rashad.


  387. Luna,

    I had to laugh at your description of yourself. I’m a homemaking, capitalist, homeschooling, software engineer, organic gardening, bread-baking, ballerina. Perhaps my inherent weirdness is another reason they make allowances for me.

    My cousin’s like that, too. We’re both so strange that they just shake their heads at us and figure we’re a lost cause. LOL!


  388. anonymous:

    I would think that white men would go for Phylicia Rashad and Sade, but I have noticed that they rarely comment on their beauty unlike, say, Halle, Beyonce and Tyra. Or Iman.

    And it is not just my imagination either: of the lists of beautiful women that you see on the Web, Sade and Rashad appear on lists made by blacks but almost never on those made by whites. (More on that here: http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/02/09/the-most-beautiful-black-women-according-to-black-people/ ).

    What makes it even stranger is that neither woman acts one bit “ghetto”, the thing white men always complain about.


  389. I don’t want a black woman to view me as her option. I am nobody’s option, and I see the option factor as an act of desperation?

    Correct me if I am wrong here. I’m not trying to rattle any bones, I just enjoy learning from others.

    **********************************
    The belief of options has to be reciprocal in that a White man will see Black women as just a viable option as he would an Asian or Hispanic women which have the highest out marriage rates to White partners. I don’t see it as Black women condescending to date White men because their options are limited within their own race, but the fact that economically (since they may be making more money and as noted before have a lot of exposure interacting with White people) Black women may exercise their ability to broaden their choices just as Black men have been doing for far longer and as do White men who have done with impunity for centuries in either dating younger and younger women or to select women from races who they deem represent their ideas of femininity. Again Black women are told that they have to be proactive and assertive in what they want since we don’t have the same protection mechanisms that other groups of women automatically expect and enjoy.

    In addition you have to take into consider the generation gap—a White man won’t see a Black woman as an option in his 30’s and 40’s because of the stigma of wanting to carry on his name and genetic lineage with someone White. From what I observed, Men in their twenties (who may not have the same toxic racial history) and men over 50 who have raised their White family etc, may be more open to exploiting their options with a Black woman—who is usually far younger than he is and usually he is averse to having and or raising more children. Again black/white pairings—i.e. marriages are still very rare because of societal pressure put on by Whites—I have seen that it is a less of a stigma for Black men or Black women because usually it is seen as economically and socially advantageous move up when marrying white.

    Thus the burden of Black women using their options to get with White men because their dating pool is low is totally and completely false and all those empowerment sites and articles that tout that White men are the be end to a happy relationship because their own race sucks is nothing more than fetishism—which is no better than the comments under this: http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/01/20/11-asian-girls/ ..


  390. I strongly disagree:

    “…men over 50 who have raised their White family etc, may be more open to exploiting their options with a Black woman—who is usually far younger than he is and usually he is averse to having and or raising more children.”

    As a woman closing in on 50 at break-neck speed I am not exploited. The men I’ve date, and I do mean DATED (not kept under a bushel) have post-graduate educations and at the pinnacle of their professions. As the woman in their lives we are quite public in our relationship. I am typically introduced to his children and colleagues.


  391. It’s true that BW/WM marriages increase with age, but I guess I always assumed that the reason was that the older you get, the better BW look in comparison to most WW (as they age better).

    And the marriages also increase with education, which I assume has to do with simple proximity. The more educated you are, the more integrated your work environment will be.
    And perhaps older people are just more independent; they aren’t as swayed by others’ opinions.


  392. White men who date black women have fewer perceived repercussions. The no longer worry about what the senior partners will react. They are the senior partner. They are less inhibited over all. That is just a part of the aging process. By the time I’m 70 I’m expecting my family to chant the refrain, “Well, you know how she is,” with greater regularity. And most important, your have a better sense of what’s important. Happiness is not hinged on skin color or hair texture.


  393. Wow guys thanks for the comments!!!

    This is a great learning process for me and I am pleased to hear all of your input.

    I understand what you mean when you say:

    “Black women are under INTENSE pressure not to “date out”. Truly. When a black woman says that there are “not enough black men” what she’s REALLY saying is, “This monoracial dating system sucks. I’m going to quit following these outdated rules and date whomever I like.”

    “But she’s not allowed to say that because then she’d be viewed as a traitor. So, she makes excuses instead. “Do you know how many black men are incarcerated?” “Black men are all dating white women so why shouldn’t I date white men?” Etc., etc., etc.”

    “She has to have a concrete, measurable, statistically-based reason. She’s not allowed to just say, “There’s this cute white guy in accounting that I really like. He seems nice.” Liking him and being attracted to him are not reason enough to “date out”.”

    Before I really became fully interested, if someone would ask me if I would date a black woman I would think they were crazy.

    But deep down inside I didn’t want to just say YES I am interested because of the fear of retribution from others. I in some ways felt embarrassed to just say so because I know some of my friends would think I was a lunatic or crazy in some way.

    That has long been put to rest and I now openly say I am interested in black women as well as all races because I know TRUE love has no boundaries nonetheless restricted to my own.

    If someone disagrees with my taste or outlook on love, I refuse to try and explain or change them if they aren’t willing to look at and respect my point of views.

    I just wish black women would just come out and say they are interested in white men, regardless of what others may think or say.

    Maybe that is a reason why white men may not be so open, because black women won’t just stand up and say yes I am interested?

    We don’t have any idea if they are interested in us. Especially when you hear the terms ‘not enough black men’ ‘white women taking all the black men’ stop beating around the bush and just say YES I AM INTERESTED!

    Some of us white men need concrete evidence, I am SURE if black women OPENLY stated interest in white men surely you will see more of US open up as well.

    Quit being afraid of others. State what you like and maybe things will become easier for both sides.

    BTW, I am not yelling…lol…..I am just trying to tell black women to just SAY what they WANT, and not ENCODE it in ‘not enough’ or ‘white women’ taking black men.

    I am telling you as a white man, those statements seem to stem from desperation. That’s what I see it as, I’m sure many other white males feel the same way of course which IS a turnoff.

    Please find the strength within yourself and OPENLY state you are interested in US.

    I certainly did, and once I did it felt so much better to let loose my true inner feelings…..

    Thanks again guys for your comments.

    VERY informative and influential for me.


  394. Mayhue says,
    In addition you have to take into consideration the generation gap—a White man won’t see a Black woman as an option in his 30’s and 40’s because of the stigma of wanting to carry on his name and genetic lineage with someone White. From what I observed, Men in their twenties (who may not have the same toxic racial history) and men over 50 who have raised their White family etc, may be more open to exploiting their options with a Black woman—who is usually far younger than he is and usually he is averse to having and or raising more children. Again black/white pairings—i.e. marriages are still very rare because of societal pressure put on by Whites—I have seen that it is a less of a stigma for Black men or Black women because usually it is seen as economically and socially advantageous move up when marrying white.

    laromana says,
    My life experiences with American WM really bear out the facts you’ve noted above. Although there are SOME BW in America who are finding SOME WM who are NOT AFRAID to SERIOUSLY DATE and MARRY BW, this is still an EXCEPTION and NOT the rule for MOST American WM. Hopefully, as the trend towards MORE American WM OPENLY/SERIOUSLY DATING and MARRYING BW GROWS, BW/WM IRR’S will become more mainstream instead of being a rarity.

    Below I want to share a comment posted by a BW on a PRO-BW Empowerment blog(who was approached by an older, married WM for a “mistress” IRR), that also supports the truths you’ve stated above. Even though the WM in this example is married, there are other American WM who reject SERIOUS DATING and MARRIAGE relationships with BW due to ANTI-BW COWARDICE (or ANTI-BW RACISM) when they are in their prime, marriageable years and then expect BW to agree to be in relationships with them when they are OLDER, have raised their White families, and don’t have to face any “NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES” for this type of relationship.

    BW RESPONDING TO AN OLDER WM LOOKING FOR A “RELATIONSHIP” WITH HER:
    “You probably think I should be honored that you want to get with me. That I should be complimented by your interest. Well let me tell you something. I’m not complimented.
    -You are a typical white guy – an ANTI-BW COWARD. And do you want to know why you are?? Because you didn’t have the COURAGE to go after what you really wanted and you did the acceptable thing, you took the easy way out which is to date and then marry the acceptable white woman.
    -And now that you are married and unhappy you want your black fantasy (on the side). Well guess what? That’s not going to happen.
    -I DON’T pursue OTHER WOMEN’S MEN and I
    DON’T WANT a relationship with an ANTI-BW COWARD.
    -I’m a woman who IS GOOD ENOUGH for a man to date, take out to dinner, and introduce to his family. I’m not going to be ANY MAN’S little secret.
    -Sadly, you may find a BW who is willing to be kept on the side and fufill every fantasy you’ve ever had, BUT I am NOT that chick.”


  395. I’m beginning to think I may be a better judgment of men than most. My experience with white men has been contrary to many of you. I am the one pressured by the men in my life to be introduced to my family.

    I’ve not ashamed of the men I date. My parents don’t get dating for simple companionship. The believe each relationship is a precursor to marriage. I am not in marriage mode. So avoid the family speculation game.


  396. Azrazyel,
    There is a difference in the way MOST AA BW have been taught to view IRR with WM and the way NON-AA BW (eg. African, Afro Hispanic, Carribean, etc.) view these relationships.

    There have ALWAYS been SOME AA BW and MANY NON-AA BW in America who prefer WM or are open to BW/WM IRR’s but have NOT been able to find MANY WM who want to SERIOUSLY DATE and/or MARRY BW because MOST of these WM have either been ANTI-BW COWARDS or ANTI-BW RACISTS.

    As MORE American WM CHANGE the NEGATIVE way they view/treat BW and become MORE OPEN to SERIOUSLY DATING and/or MARRYING BW, these relaionships will become EASIER to ESTABLISH/MORE MAINSTREAM.


  397. on Thu 27 Aug 2009 at 21:57:58 bunchesofoats

    Abagond can you do a post sometimes on older white men who marry ww, have kids, divorce and then think they can get young bw in their 20s


  398. I agree totally laromana!!!

    I’m guessing it’s the white man’s fault for this perception?

    Hence the reason why most may not be or may not say OPENLY that they are interested.

    I guess it’s ignorance upon many white males to believe these stereotypes as true. Of course these stereotypes are quite unattractive to many white men especially when they don’t take the time to see if it is really true or not.

    I think these white males see the media perception and say ‘yuck, that’s how it really is????’ without even delving deeper to find the TRUE facts of complete falsehood.

    I don’t really know if white men will ever change their ways of thinking, let alone the interest to find a way to prove it false.

    It’s pretty saddening if you ask me…..


  399. “I am telling you as a white man, those statements seem to stem from desperation.”

    Less desperation than exasperation, I think. But I understand you completely, nobody wants to be seen as a last resort.

    “Please find the strength within yourself and OPENLY state you are interested in US… I certainly did, and once I did it felt so much better to let loose my true inner feelings…”

    Perhaps the strength simply came with maturity and experience? With a stronger general sense of self-confidence?

    It’s a bit like coming out of the closet, isn’t it? As if BW and WM were seperate species. As if there were something distinctly unnatural in the attraction.

    Now do you see why this pairing is such a hot topic?


  400. Yes I completely understand you.

    Thanks for the insight.


  401. I think it depends on your age. I’m in my 20’s (well, 20 :-P) and IR dating have never been a big deal to me, my family, or my friends. They always call me the “white-boy magnet,” but they say it in admiration (not the best word, but you know what I mean), not in malice.

    I think environment plays a role too. The university I attend is only 2% Black, and 1/2 of those Black people are athletes, most of whom date White girls (I don’t have a problem with that, but I think a lot of them do it for the wrong reasons). Some of my friends are resistant to IR dating, but I’ve told a few that realistically, the number of Black men is only going to decrease as we get older, so waiting on a Black man probably isn’t the best idea.

    I don’t see White guys as a last resort; I like all kinds. But I agree that for some the stigma is there, and (some) Black women have just as many bad stereotypes of White men as vice versa.

    Azrazyel,

    While I understand that you want a clearer signal, one thing to keep in mind is that tradition mandates that the man be the one to approach, especially for Black women. We are used to the more aggressive approach from Black men, so when White men (who tend to be more timid) are interested, sometimes we don’t notice. Plus, women like a confident man. You will get farther, on average, just going for it (respectfully) rather than dropping oblique hints. I know I hate when guys do that!


  402. Jasmin:

    Thanks for the comments.

    The problem doesn’t lie within white men (being the man) typically having to approach a black woman.

    The REAL problem is obvious….Black and White.

    I have NO problem approaching white women, but it is a racial hurdle that wherein lies the problem.

    Do you get my drift?

    It is easy to say, and YES I agree, the man typically does the approaching, but when it comes to a black woman it is a WHOLE different ballgame.

    I shouldn’t have to explain why.

    I know many white men, I am sure, think and feel the exact thing as I. I will NEVER approach a black woman. That is why I joined a dating site for this in particular.

    White men CAN’T just start approaching black women out of the blue, which is the reason why we have these discussions, and the reason why black women say things as:

    “Well, he smiled at me and said hi, but that was it?????”

    Obviously, black women need to approach just AS much as white men should.

    If nobody ever makes a move, nobody will ever know what could have been…..

    Have a nice day.

    Az


  403. Oh one more thing Jasmin:

    Why are your friends so hesitant to date IR?

    This might be a dumb question, but I was just curious for the reasoning of their own individual perceptions of it.

    Thanks!


  404. Azrazyel said:

    I have NO problem approaching white women, but it is a racial hurdle that wherein lies the problem.

    Do you get my drift?

    It is easy to say, and YES I agree, the man typically does the approaching, but when it comes to a black woman it is a WHOLE different ballgame.

    I shouldn’t have to explain why.

    No, please do explain. Until this moment I just assumed white men were being racists or cowards because nothing else I knew made sense of their behaviour.


  405. Laromana I knew you would understand where I was coming from. This phenomena I have witnessed a few times and it has nothing about picking men badly but has everything to do with the man’s sense of entitlement. And this is especially true if the White man is in his 50’s and is no longer beholden to disapproving relatives or angry children and has either raised his white family or is divorced and will actively look for a younger and financially self sufficient black woman who won’t really need him. It strokes his ego and white privilege and he get the opportunity to deep into the fountain of youth without having to try very hard if it was a white woman.

    Obviously, black women need to approach just AS much as white men should.
    If nobody ever makes a move, nobody will ever know what could have been…..

    Totally disagree. That’s not the Black Woman’s problem–that is the White or non-Black man’s problem.

    So social convention has to be interpreted differently for Black women but no one else. White men have no problems approaching and signaling to Asian, hispanic, and white women their interest, thus why is it any different for Black women. I have seen white men approach Asian women who could barely speak English and there is no common culture to bind them other than she looks good—so how are Black Woman, especially black Women who are raised, typically in the same culture of a White American man any different. If a white man can honestly see a Black woman without viewing it through racism or that she is automatically deemed ugly, who meets his expectations on what he is looking for then I see no reason why it is an extra challenge to approach a suitable looking, intelligent Black woman.

    Black women are already seen as overly aggressive, pushy, ball busting Sapphires who are rude and ghetto, no matter what she present to the contrary so chasing after a white man who shows half hearted interests, defeats the whole purpose and merely confirms the stereotype that other races have of Black women.

    And in most cases, a Man usually respects the woman more if he puts in a little effort to get her attention.


  406. Mayhue, you read my mind.


  407. “No, please do explain. Until this moment I just assumed white men were being racists or cowards because nothing else I knew made sense of their behaviour.”

    Abagond, you seem very smart hence why you created this topic.

    I don’t know if I should take your question as a serious one or just being sarcastic.

    What do you want me to explain? I already did in my previous post. Everything else pertaining to that was obvious with no further explanation.

    Mayhue:

    I respect your points of views. Apparently, we are totally on two different subjects.

    My point is this:

    White men have NO problem approaching white (obviously our own race) Asian or Latina women because there is NO history of racism, slavery, beatings, rape, murder, hanging etc. etc. to the extent that we dealt to blacks long ago.

    That is MY perception because MANY of US white men still feel the scars from the past, therefore the fear factor of us approaching you is overwhelming, to say the least.

    It is NOT typical for us to just walk up to you, as it is when we look for Asian, Latina, Cuban whatever type of women.

    My point should be clearly obvious, RACISM is CLEAR and ALIVE to this day. 150 years later is is still breathing.

    As I said, men typically approach the women BUT, in this case, black women HAVE to openly state their interest just as much as I and some other white males do.

    It’s pathetic that I have to use a dating site to find a black woman. Why can’t I just approach one without all the negatives that I think in my head while trying to do so?

    Please tell me I am not insane. Why do so MANY white men AND black women resort to dating sites to find love with one another?

    If it WAS so easy, why have these dating sites to begin with?

    C’mon now, I know and you seem like a smart lady, but I just can’t understand or grasp why you cannot see my point of view?

    IF it was so easy, would you think it WOULD be more common, we WOULDN’T have to have dating sites, we WOULDN’T have to have blogs like this?

    This is a good approach for black women and white men to connect through websites because I am SURE it is just as hard for THEM as I.

    Have a good day


  408. Azrazyel:

    I am not being sarcastic, not one bit. And no, that last sentence was not sarcastic either.

    If I follow your reasoning, then White American men should have no trouble asking out West Indian and African women – just Black American women. Is that true? If not, why not?


  409. on Fri 28 Aug 2009 at 05:18:34 bunchesofoats

    good point abagond…good point. I think white men should approach bw first like they would any other race. Why shoud WE have to go out of our way because some wm have bad thoughts pertaining to bw because of a bad history, the history that really was not our fault to begin with…no…you approach us if you’re interested like you would any other woman…otherwise you just look like a coward. Also what are bw going to do, what’s the worst that’s going to happen??She’ll say no…move on. I’m sure wm have been rejected by ww before was it the end of the world? What are we going to do put a voodoo curse on you for asking us out?? Spank you…come on. I don’t mean to be mean, but that’s just my thoughts…


  410. Azrazyel Says:
    I agree totally laromana!!!

    I’m guessing it’s the white man’s fault for this perception?

    Hence the reason why most may not be or may not say OPENLY that they are interested.

    -I guess it’s ignorance upon many white males to believe these stereotypes as true. Of course these stereotypes are quite unattractive to many white men especially when they don’t take the time to see if it is really true or not.
    -I think these white males see the media perception and say ‘yuck, that’s how it really is????’ without even delving deeper to find the TRUE facts of complete falsehood.

    laromana says,
    Thanks for acknowledging these critical TRUTHS. This is the first step to understanding the ABNORMAL DYNAMICS that OFTEN affect BW/WM IRR’s in America and helping to CHANGE/IMPROVE them.


  411. Azrazyel Says:
    It is easy to say, and YES I agree, the man typically does the approaching, but when it comes to a black woman it is a WHOLE different ballgame.

    I shouldn’t have to explain why.

    I know many white men, I am sure, think and feel the exact thing as I. I will NEVER approach a black woman. That is why I joined a dating site for this in particular.

    White men CAN’T just start approaching black women out of the blue, which is the reason why we have these discussions, and the reason why black women say things as:

    “Well, he smiled at me and said hi, but that was it?????”

    Obviously, black women need to approach just AS much as white men should.

    laromana says,
    This mindset demonstrates ANTI-BW RACISM/COWARDICE.

    BW (LIKE WOMEN OF ANY RACE) DESERVE to be APPROACHED FIRST by WM who are interested in them, REGARDLESS OF NEGATIVE PAST HISTORY. Expecting BW to HAVE TO APPROACH WM FIRST, (when WM don’t expect NON-BW to do so) is DISRESPECTFUL to BW and shows that you think BW are “SECOND CLASS” WOMEN/HUMAN BEINGS.

    SOME American WM have learned how to approach BW (EXACTLY THE SAME WAY THEY APPROACH NON-BW) and you should do the same.


  412. laromana:

    How am I being racist by NOT wanting to approach first.

    So I am racist? Are you kidding me? What an insult!

    I have my reasons for what I say, apparently I can’t do so without being mentioned as a racist or coward.

    Now I see why I don’t do it to begin with…..


  413. It comes off as racist or cowardly because the man always approaches first. Black women are WOMEN, not men, not some kind of third sex (blomen?) or beings from outer space.


  414. Nowhere did I mention that, Abagond!

    So not only am I a racist/bigot/coward….

    Now I am considering them as third sex and creatures from outer space.

    Oh boy…..why do I bother…..


  415. I am not trying to offend you, but tell you how you are coming off. Warning you. You never SAID that black women are not women but you are ACTING LIKE IT by not approaching them first, by expecting them to meet you half way.


  416. Sometimes life takes sacrifices. Not always do MEN need to be the ones.

    Why is it that I have been approached FIRST by white and Asian women, but NEVER a black woman?

    They are just as guilty as I am.

    I see it as hypocrisy when someone blames ME for not ALWAYS making the first move, when THEY do the same EXACT thing in return.

    I have stated before that men typically do the approaching first…..

    NEVER have I had a black woman approach me or nonetheless, show interest in any way.

    I guess I shall remain in guilt because of what I believe pertaining to the issue at hand.


  417. Azrazyel: You have a personal hangup. You need to get over it. I’m a WM, happily married to a BW for many years. Before meeting my wife I dated numerous BW.

    There is nothing special about me. I’m a mid-western white guy, a bit nerdy, somewhat shy and self conscious. As a man you just have to learn to get past that fear of rejection.

    Certainly when approaching BW you will encounter some who would not consider dating WM at all — an additional level of rejection that might not exist with other races. It doesn’t take too much effort or time to figure that part out on an individual basis and, if that’s the case, move on.

    There are in my experience a lot of BW willing to date, or even affirmatively interested in dating a WM if they sense that his aim is true. BW are in my opinion the most beautiful women in general. Among them you will find many who are witty, insightful, kind, interesting and fun to be with. That presupposes that you view them as whole individual human beings, not as some mysterious, exotic other.


  418. Blanc2:

    Thanks for the insight.

    I’m not so much afraid of rejection compared to the humiliation of getting denied by a black woman. I see it much differently being rejected by a black woman than anyone else, obviously.

    Most aren’t interested in white men so why bother wasting my time publicly pursuing one when I have dating sites that I affirmatively know they are interested.

    Yes it is me, I won’t publicly pursue one when I know the rejection rate will be 90%.
    It would be a waste of my time as well as embarrassment to just stay with dating sites specializing in what I look for.

    I personally feel much more comfortable that way.

    Plus most of the black women where I live are ghetto anyway. It’s a rarity to find someone down to earth and a good head on their shoulders with a great outlook on life and positive aspirations and goals.

    I know not all black women are ghetto, but where I reside, nobody here is worth my time even just to look at.

    I suppose I need to be around down to earth black women who I feel suitable for me, but where may that be? They are non-existent where I live.

    Sorry about the stereotypes, but I know what I see and it just doesn’t pertain to black folks either. Everyone has stereotypes ranging from a variety of things.

    I just so mention black women here since this is the subject at hand.


  419. I find this all so interesting. It’s time people stop seeing relationships in racial terms.

    Here’s the problem with many white men and black women: We see eacj other as cultural object to be “handled.” We forget thsty we are simply indivivduals in search of love and acceptance.

    Much of what I’ve read in recent posts amounts to nothing more than political posturing. Yes, there is racism. Yes, there are those who seek to exploit others. And, yes, IR dating/mating/marriages are frot with outside pressure.

    Bottom line: YOU, as individuals, chart your own relationships. It isn’t “society.” WE ARE SOCIETY! If you’re looking for real change, look from within. That’s where real change begins.


  420. abagond. sade & phylicia rashad were more know about in the 80’s so i think thats why white people don’t really include them in modern beautiful or sexiest lists. from looking on amiannoying.com sade was featured on some lists in the past.they are generally not as well known to guys younger than 22 as much as say beyonce is.

    http://www.amiannoying.com/(S(g51lnwamfwwyfc55n3lprlu3))/view.aspx?ID=961


  421. on Fri 28 Aug 2009 at 17:46:54 bunchesofoats

    Azrayel: First of all what is ghetto? But, fine I’ll empathize with the fact that yes most bw don’t date wm, so you’re afraid of being rejected repeatedly…fine. But do you know how insulting it sounds when you say that black women who do consider wm appealing should approach white men first when most of the time hispanic,asian and white women are cool to approach. Last I checked ww didn’t accept a date from every wm who approached them nor asian or hispanic. There are plenty of Hispanic women who don’t date wm. Are you just as insulted by their not accepting your proposition as you are to bw. Its’ insulting and condescending to say bw should approach first…guess what most wm don’t date bw…so why should we have to approach…lol. You’re the men, we’re the women why do we have to assume the role of man…again…why do we always have to sacrifice our femininity to appease others…??? Tired of it…


  422. Azrazyel says,
    I have NO problem approaching white women, but it is a racial hurdle that wherein lies the problem.

    Do you get my drift?

    It is easy to say, and YES I agree, the man typically does the approaching, but when it comes to a black woman it is a WHOLE different ballgame.

    I shouldn’t have to explain why.

    laromana says,
    Please REREAD what you said above. It is these statements that CREATE THE PERCEPTION that you aren’t willing to approach BW IN THE SAME MANNER that you are NON-BW.

    It is YOU who are attaching DIFFERENT EXPECTATIONS to initiating contact with BW, SOLELY BECAUSE THEY ARE BW, and THIS IS RACIST.

    abagond Says:
    -I am not trying to offend you, but tell you how you are coming off. Warning you. You never SAID that black women are not women but you are ACTING LIKE IT by not approaching them first, by expecting them to meet you half way.

    laromana Says,
    Thanks, abagond for clarifying my point to
    Azrazyel.

    Blanc2 Says (CAPS inserted by laromana for clarity),
    Azrazyel:
    -You have a PERSONAL HANGUP. You NEED TO GET OVER IT.
    -As a MAN you just have to LEARN to get past that FEAR OF REJECTION.
    -There are in my experience a LOT of BW WILLING to date, or even AFFIRMATIVELY INTERESTED in dating a WM IF they SENSE HIS AIM IS TRUE.
    -That PRESUPPOSES that YOU VIEW THEM as WHOLE INDIVIDUAL HUMAN BEINGS, NOT as some MYSTERIOUS, EXOTIC OTHER.

    laromana Says,
    Blanc2,
    Thanks for your excellent clarification of the REAL ISSUES Azrazyel needs to face if he is to relate properly/positively with BW.

    Azrazyel Says,
    -I’m not so much afraid of rejection compared to the humiliation of getting denied by a black woman. I see it much differently being rejected by a black woman than anyone else, obviously.

    laromana Says,
    Azrazyel,
    Why is rejection from BW so different TO YOU from rejection from NON-BW? Why is the RACE of a BW who rejects you an ISSUE if it isn’t when a NON-BW rejects you.

    Azrazyel Says,
    -Most aren’t interested in white men so why bother wasting my time publicly pursuing one when I have dating sites that I affirmatively know they are interested.
    -Yes it is me, I won’t publicly pursue one when I know the rejection rate will be 90%.

    laromana Says,
    Why are you making these GENERALIZATIONS about ALL BW when several of us on this post have told you that your ASSUMPTIONS are UNTRUE?

    Why are you willing to RISK pursuing NON-BW, whether or not they reject you, but you’re NOT WILLING to DO THE SAME for BW?

    Why are you MAKING RACE AN ISSUE when it comes to pursuing BW(and POSSIBLY being rejected by them) but you DON’T MAKE RACE AN ISSUE when it comes to pursuing (or being rejected by) NON-BW?

    When you review ALL of your comments on this post about how you view BW/interacting with BW, it appears as if you DON’T consider BW NORMAL, INDIVIDUAL HUMAN BEINGS like you do NON-BW.

    By making PRESUMPTUOS, NEGATIVE GENERALIZATIONS about BW, YOU make yourself APPEAR to be an ANTI-BW RACIST/COWARD.


  423. I give up!!!!

    Apparently, NOBODY sees my points of view of what I feel and think. Everyone wants to criticize what I have to say to further subdue me into trepidation.

    Maybe this isn’t for me after all.

    I am glad I realized this so I can move on and not having wasted my time in pursuing one.

    I am SURE my mind will be at ease because I can apparently see this is a much bigger deal than I previously thought.

    There is NO way I see myself living in peace especially when others disregard my perceptions which leads me to believe…

    What am I THINKING??????

    Take care


  424. Besides,

    Why make it difficult for myself when the quantity of black women is few, and the quality I seek is that much less?

    So much more to choose from in other races.

    Thank you for helping me realize that.


  425. Azrazyel,

    The (unspoken) consensus among my Black female friends who are hesitant to IR date seems to be that they don’t believe White guys are interested in them (or maybe Black women in general, at times). One of my friends basically said to me, “Well, White guys like you but they wouldn’t be interested in me.” For some, I think it’s where they are from, and I’m sure prior rejection would play a role in that too.


  426. A BW is a human being. You approach a BW exactly the same way you approach any other human being — with respect and humility, plus a playful show of interest if the interest is genuine. A sense of humor helps. This is not rocket science. If socially awkward Blanc2 can figure this out, anybody can.

    Based on what I see, Azrazyel regards BW as something other than human. He has an irrational hangup about this — perhaps it’s more accurate to call it a fetish. I pity any BW who finds herself entangled with this guy. Guys like Azrazyel were part of the reason guys like Blanc2 (when single) encountered BW who were soured on WM.

    IMHO, his posts resonate with sentiments scarily similar to those in the blog entries of that punk who shot up that women’s yoga class in Philly.


  427. Azrazyel Says:
    Why make it difficult for myself when the quantity of black women is few, and the quality I seek is that much less?

    laromana Says,

    MOST of your comments about BW on this post are CONDESCENDING, INSULTING, RACIST, and ANTI-BW and DESERVE to be CRITICIZED.

    Dont’ INSULT OUR INTELLIGENCE by PRETENDING that we “don’t understand you” because we’re critical of your NEGATIVE, ANTI-BW comments.

    You have a pretty EXALTED opinion of YOURSELF and a LOW opinion of BW and until THAT CHANGES, you’re not going to find ANY BW (regardless of “quality or quantity”) who will be willing to be in a relationship with you.

    BW DESERVE to be pursued by QUALITY MEN OF ANY RACE who will RESPECT their HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY.


  428. on Fri 28 Aug 2009 at 18:47:30 bunchesofoats

    Woah…azrazyel…calm down. Its understandable that in your mind, you feel the chances of a bw accepting your proposition is slim because most bw don’t date wm…fine. Therefore you don’t want to be rejected repeatedly by bw…I think we get that. But firstly the way you phrased your opinion was highly offensive. Now, if you had said something along the lines of: “I am attracted to black women, but it seems that many black women aren’t as open to me, being a white man. So its easier for me to be in an atmosphere where I know bw are receptive to wm and vice versa. In my experience the best place to find this atmosphere is on dating sites…” That’s all you had to say, something along those lines. Saying that you would NEVER specifically approach a bw and then state in the same phrase however I would approach a non-bw is highly offensive. It makes it sound like your putting non-bw on a pedestal and expect bw to come beg for attention and we get enough of that from the people who don’t like us. We don’t need from the people who claim they like us to…


  429. on Fri 28 Aug 2009 at 18:56:08 bunchesofoats

    Also to add insult to injury. You’re going to let the opinion of a few black women on a blog sour your opinion of black women as a whole…??

    “Apparently, NOBODY sees my points of view of what I feel and think. Everyone wants to criticize what I have to say to further subdue me into trepidation.Maybe this isn’t for me after all.
    I am glad I realized this so I can move on and not having wasted my time in pursuing one.”

    That’s what you said and that’s the exact mindset that is probably making it difficult for you to pursue a bw. We are INDIVIDUALS. We have different mindsets, opinions, we don’t all feel. think the same way. There are millions upon millions of black women in this world, we’re a diverse group of people. There are plenty of bw who like white men, you just need to treat them the way you would any other female. Also in terms of bw rejecting white men…did you ever think that part of the reason bw aren’t open to wm is because not enough wm are willing to approach bw first? (just like you said you don’t) I’m willing to bet if more wm openly pursued and approached bw respectfully more bw would eventually open up to white men and realize there is an attraction there. I wasn’t always open to white men until I realized there were some wm who desired bw. But part of what opened my eyes was the fact that wm showed interest in me and had confidence when it came to their attraction towards bw…


  430. Some really good points were made in the last 15 or so comments.

    Azrazyel,

    It’s unfortunate that you feel ganged-up on/misunderstood/etc., but I believe people really are trying to educate you–their “harsh” words are out of frustration (because this conversation has been going on for years), not out of malice.

    To sum it up (and I’m not yelling at you) when you say “I’m not so much afraid of rejection compared to the humiliation of getting denied by a black woman.“, the implied meaning is that getting a Black woman should be easy, they are on the bottom of the barrel, etc. For instance, have you ever heard someone make a similar statement regarding fat women? The idea is that the woman is somehow “less than”, and her inferiority means any guy (high-quality or low-quality) should be able to get with her. I don’t think you meant to be offensive, but that is how it came across.

    The tangential issue seems to be the “to approach or not to approach” thing. It’s not that Black women go out of their way to not approach White men. I would think that a majority of women are against approaching any man. That’s just a cultural norm; I don’t think it has anything to do with race.

    If you go into a new situation like IR dating filled with stereotypes and apprehension (again, I don’t think you mean to be malicious, but that doesn’t excuse how it comes across), you are only going to find evidence that affirms those stereotypes. Instead of approaching it like a science experiment (where you have to record data, seek tangible results, etc.), why not just treat it like regular dating? You win some, you lose some–more often than not if you see a consistent negative problem, it leads back to something about you (either a personal aspect or your choice in women); it’s not a grand conspiracy on the part of all of the individual women you meet.

    Side note on the “ghetto” thing: If all the people you live around are ghetto, aren’t you ghetto too? It’s not like there are enclaves of middle-class housing in the projects…just a thought.


  431. Like I said, I made my decision and I will stick with it.

    Call me what you will, you don’t offend me and I take those words with a grain of salt.

    Some things are better unknowing than unknowing.

    Well, I see WHY black men leave you women is because they are fed up with the attitudes.

    Hope I didn’t touch a nerve because that is what I have experienced.

    Apparently, I came here for advice, NOT to get bull rushed.

    Don’t hate me for my opinions. You don’t know me, you have no idea where and what kind of environment I was raised in to cause ME to have the perceptions I do.

    Assume all you want. Call me a racist, coward, bigot, anti-bw, anti-black, etc. etc.

    I refuse to stoop down to that level.

    PATHETIC!!!


  432. on Fri 28 Aug 2009 at 19:00:22 bunchesofoats

    okay azrazyel, now I see why you get the response you do from bw supposedly… you’re doing us a favor. Nope you didn’t touch any nerves with bw, I know that much. Because I don’t have an attitude, never had problems with keep a black man either…Best wishes. Good luck with everything man…


  433. on Fri 28 Aug 2009 at 19:02:37 bunchesofoats

    *didn’t touch any nerves with this black woman


  434. bunchesofoats:

    You seem like the only logical person in here that I could talk to WITHOUT being scorned for my points of view.

    Why do some people try and articulate their image of me?

    I don’t do that and I certainly don’t want it upon me either.

    As soon as I say something someone disagrees with….

    1. I AM RACIST
    2. I AM A BIGOT
    3. I AM ANTI-BW
    4. I AM ANTI-BLACK

    That’s why I say I don’t or shouldn’t bother because I am called that because I am WHITE!!!

    Talk about telling me to grow up?

    LOOK IN THE MIRROR!!!


  435. Azrazyel,

    You are making much too much about all of this. A black woman is a woman.

    The first time I was asked out by a white man it was so uneventful I don’t remember his name. Yes, I did accept his invitation.

    BREATHE!


  436. Actually I just realized your like the rest….

    Which further claims my thoughts of WHY white men don’t approach you.

    I figured out what I was trying to say.


  437. Yes, the stereotypes are true, the media is true.

    I am a FOOL for even thinking different.


  438. on Fri 28 Aug 2009 at 19:08:46 bunchesofoats

    Azrazyel I said those things because of the comment you left, which was highly rude and stereotypical. If you had been respectful, I would have given you respect, but you came crazy in your comment, so I gave you what you wanted… “I’m just like all the rest…” that is an ignorant comment…


  439. on Fri 28 Aug 2009 at 19:11:10 bunchesofoats

    “Some things are better unknowing than unknowing.
    Well, I see WHY black men leave you women is because they are fed up with the attitudes.”
    WHy would you make a statement like that unless you were trying to be intentionally hurtful?? If you have such a negative view of bw you’re going to negative responses back…


  440. on Fri 28 Aug 2009 at 19:11:39 bunchesofoats

    Please don’t be intentionally rude/demeaning and then get upset when you get the same back…


  441. Azrazyel:

    Now you’re lashing out. At no time did I EVER attack your character.

    You don’t seem to understand. You see black women as something alien. We are women with hopes and dream and aspirations — just like any other woman. You choose to see us as a single organism. We are not.

    Stop looking for some perfect answer. You won’t find it. If there is a woman you are sincerely interested in, persue her, woe her, make you intentions known.

    Otherwise you’re engaging in an emotional masturbatory excercise in which no one is gratified. NO EVEN YOU!


  442. on Fri 28 Aug 2009 at 19:20:59 bunchesofoats

    Not trying to attack you azrazyel and maybe some of the comments may be a little harsh, but I wish you would realize how offensive some of your comments come off and that is why in turn you’re getting the harsh comments back. Black women are large, diverse group with differing opinions, we’re not all the same. To group bw all together like that is only going to be a disservice to yourself. Sorry if you’ve had bad experiences with bw, but generally you get what you put out. If you go into a situation with such negative perceptions of bw, then you’re going to get what you are looking for. Sorry…


  443. I got attacked first, which is why you see a different side to me.

    I have never even talked to a black woman like that in my entire life.

    I guess because I am RACIST, BIGOT, ANTI-BW, ANTI-BLACK as stated in here.

    It’s all because I am white do I get called racist.

    I admit, my approach maybe hard to understand at times but I know what I mean. I would respectfully explain what I mean if I wasn’t called a RACIST, BIGOT, ANTI-BW, ANTI-BLACK in the pursuit of doing so.

    When someone calls me racist, especially on a computer with a bunch of little typed black words and unknowing my true character, that’s fine you are entitled to your opinions.

    I’m wearing myself out trying to explain my P.O.V. and taking the flak at the same time without being considered RACIST, is admittedly pretty hard.

    Apparently I can’t seem to hold a conversation up above the 3rd grade with anyone in here.

    I am sorry if you don’t see what I am trying to say, other than calling me a coward or a bigot hating on black women.

    If I am interested, why in the f^#& am I in here for?


  444. on Fri 28 Aug 2009 at 19:42:20 bunchesofoats

    Azrazyel, I apologize if you felt attacked, but from my perspective you seemed to be attacking me, so I insulted you. Well I never said you were a racist, I said I was a bit offended by the way you phrased your opinion. I guess I can understand where you’re coming from…you dont’ want to be rejected repeatedly, but why make the comments about not ever approaching a bw and then state that you’ll approach a non-bw though. Then comment about how you view being rejected by a bw differently than being rejected by a non-bw? That was what offended me. I’m not saying you’re a racist, but you could have rephrased that a bit differently.


  445. Azrazyel,

    First: You must learn to think before you attack You may just alienate you only ally. I don’t do character assaults be cause it’s demeaning to all paries involved.

    Second: You are a racist. I’m a racist. Racism is as American as apple pie. The great thing about admitting character flaws is it gives us an oppurtunity to examin why whe have them, then adjust our own thinking.

    You wanted to learn. You need to learn to listen. God gave us two ears and one mouth for a reason. It doesn’t mean you have accept everything you hear,


  446. on Fri 28 Aug 2009 at 19:46:44 bunchesofoats

    Laramona was the one calling you a anti-bw racist, that’s just one person’s opinion. Not the whole groups. But when you made that rude comment, “Some things are better unknowing than unknowing.
    Well, I see WHY black men leave you women is because they are fed up with the attitudes…” why would you even make a comment like that? Why bring up more stereotypes? That’s not going to help your argument. If you feel more comfortable on an online dating site catered to wm/bw fine, just say that. But when you get rude like that it just makes things worse…It makes it seem like you’re stereotyping black women as being all of the same opinion and the same backgrounds when we’re not all the same. That is what also offended me. How quickly you SEEMED to just group all black women under the same blanket statements. But I understand you felt attacked, but I think that was highly unnecessary to go there…


  447. I am one of the sweetest, charming, caring guys you would ever meet.

    I apologize for the ‘harsh’ comments or offending I may have said.

    I still don’t completely understand nor see what I said wrong.

    I have my points of view, whether you agree with them or not, I have my experiences with what I say.

    This is the first time I have ever pursued a black woman. I grew up around ALL white people, went to an ALL white school, ALL of my family is white as well as distant relatives, NEVER had a black friend my entire 28 years of living as well as ALL of my friends being white.

    I have much to learn about the black culture. That’s part of what interests me. I suppose I come off harsh sometimes from the frustration of NEVER being around black women in any social settings, family gatherings, out on the town with friends.

    I am unfortunate because I can’t find any. Sure there are some black areas where I live. But they are (sorry for the stereotype, but you know what I mean) ghetto neighborhoods where no man that has his head on his shoulders and has a positive outlook and has positive things going would ever even want to look.

    I guess it’s the frustration that causes me to be unhappy at times.

    I hear about other white males in a healthy relationship with a black woman and I say….why can’t that be me? Why can’t I seem to find one that I can call my own to love, cherish, provide, give friendship and loyalty, trust, companionship, honesty, & integrity with?

    Maybe because it’s an overwhelming amount of other race women compared to black women?

    It shouldn’t be this hard, and I admit I make it that way for myself at times. I get frustrated easily especially when I put the drive, focus and energy on a certain thing but seem to fall short every time.

    Where to look? Where to go? Where to start?

    I continue to ponder these questions and I know for a fact there is a reason why I opened up.

    Everything happens for a reason. This reason seems to flee whenever I seek it.


  448. Azrazyel,
    You have REPEATEDLY made comments on this post that are ANTI-BW and RACIST and I (or ANYONE ELSE) who ponts out this FACT is JUSTIFIED in doing so. We have EVERY RIGHT to do this.

    It’s INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST of you to post OFFENSIVE, RACIST comments directed AGAINST BW and then whine that you are “MISUNDERSTOOD and ATTACKED” when you are confronted for doing this.

    I first clearly posted YOUR NEGATIVE COMMENTS and why they were WRONG and I asked you to explain WHY you have NEGATIVE ANTI-BW attitudes. Instead of HONESTLY accepting the VALID points I and others have made regarding your views, YOU’VE chosen to DISMISS US and CONTINUE making ATTACKING, OFFENSIVE, RUDE, ANTI-BW comments.

    YOU NEED TO HONESTLY EXAMINE your DISRESPECTFUL, ANTI-BW attitudes and WORK to CHANGE them instead of CONTINUING to PUT DOWN BW.


  449. Laromana:

    Post all you want. I apologized to everyone in here.

    I will treat your post like you didn’t post it to begin with.

    Thank you for my waste of time.


  450. on Fri 28 Aug 2009 at 20:06:23 bunchesofoats

    Thank you Azrazyel for that last comment that was very nice and thank you for apologizing. I understand your frustration and thank you for acknowledging that you do have much to learn about black culture. Due to the history between bw/wm , the two groups are a little polarized I’ll admit, but at the end of the day we’re all human and just want to be respected and treated as INDIVIDUALS remember that and it will make a huge difference


  451. on Fri 28 Aug 2009 at 20:08:33 bunchesofoats

    maybe next time if a bw doesn’t appeal to you or if she rejects you, instead of looking at her as just a black woman, take it on an individuals case. Think “okay that particular woman who happens to be black may not be for me, but that’s doesn’t mean all black women are like that…” Tell yourself that over and over again until it becomes second nature do that and you will attract people who are just as interested in you as you are in them.


  452. bunchesofoats,
    We are INDIVIDUALS. We have different mindsets, opinions, we don’t all feel. think the same way. There are millions upon millions of black women in this world, we’re a diverse group of people. There are plenty of bw who like white men, you just need to treat them the way you would any other female. Also in terms of bw rejecting white men…did you ever think that part of the reason bw aren’t open to wm is because not enough wm are willing to approach bw first? (just like you said you don’t) I’m willing to bet if more wm openly pursued and approached bw respectfully more bw would eventually open up to white men and realize there is an attraction there. I wasn’t always open to white men until I realized there were some wm who desired bw. But part of what opened my eyes was the fact that wm showed interest in me and had confidence when it came to their attraction towards bw…

    laromana,
    I totally agree with EVERYTHING you’ve noted in the above comment and I made a similar comment to Azrazyel earlier in this post. Perhaps, he’ll HEAR what we’ve ALL been trying to say to him in your comments.


  453. Azrazyel Says:
    “I hear about other white males in a healthy relationship with a black woman and I say….why can’t that be me?”

    Azrazyel,
    The reason they have a healthy relationship with a black woman is because the pursued a woman WHO IS black.

    You keep forgetting there is a real relationship going on, not a social experiment.


  454. Azrazyel Says:
    Laromana:
    Post all you want. I apologized to everyone in here.

    I will treat your post like you didn’t post it to begin with.

    Thank you for my waste of time.

    laromana Says,
    I DON’T NEED your “apologies” to validate me/my opinion of you. GET OVER YOURSELF.

    Your DISMISSIVE comment to me proves ALL of the points I’ve made about you throughout this post.

    Your REFUSAL to HONESTLY address these points reveal what you REALLY think about BW. You’re NOT FOOLING ANYONE.


  455. Thank you bunchesofoats!!!

    I feel like a huge jerk now that I have settled down some.

    Please don’t think I hate black women. How could I?????? I am here right? Why would I just yell out I love black women only to put them down at the same time? I guess I would be a hypocrite…..

    One of my first posts in here I stated that I believe black women are THE most beautiful and gorgeous race of women on this planet, top to bottom < meaning light skin to dark skin. Doesn't matter to me.

    Seems like a lot of white males go for the darker skin women. For me it's a non-issue. There is beauty in it all.

    What I do hate is seeing the numerous amounts of white women in beauty commercials. I tell myself, put some REAL and BEAUTIFUL (black) women in those commercials. Time to knock the white woman (not hating here) off the pedestal. Black women need to be glorified, not subdued into a corner, because THEY are WOMEN too!!!

    Okay I admit, I am sucking up a little bit…..LOL

    That's honestly how I feel though. (:


  456. Luna:

    I appreciate the sentiments.

    As soon as I find myself in a setting (if ever) to meet a black woman, I will do it.

    It hasn’t happened yet, because the environment I live and work in doesn’t support the situations to happen that way. (In other words, no black women whatsoever).


  457. on Fri 28 Aug 2009 at 20:27:15 bunchesofoats

    All you have to do is treat people the way you would ask to be treated and take people on an individual basis. We’re all human.
    “The reason they have a healthy relationship with a black woman is because the pursued a woman WHO IS black.”
    Exactly…Luna…exactly. Its fine to have a physical preference, but you have to remember to really judge a person by what’s on the inside and not only what’s on the outside.


  458. Look, Azrazyel, I can assure you when I yelled at my husband about putting his shoes away it had absolutely nothing to do with fthe fact that he is white, his family, or what anyone has to say about our relationship. My only concern was tripping over those size 11 boats he wears.

    Get over the black/white thing. You’ll be happier.


  459. Bunchesofoats:

    Thank you! Yes physical beauty is what attracts us (as everyone knows) but to me personality is the deal maker, or breaker.

    I would rather have someone who’s looks were a 5/10 but with the greatest personality compared to a bombshell with a personality that is void.

    Luna:

    Thanks for the kind and funny words.

    People always wondered how I can be 5’7″ and wear a size 12?

    No further explanation…..


  460. i boy from pakistan i want to change my colour in white


  461. Bunchesofoats, great comments! :-)

    Azrazyel,

    It’s all water under the bridge now, but I agree with OP that lashing out because of what 1 (or 2 or 3, I didn’t count) people say will never make things better. Last time I checked, I didn’t say anything “mean” (lol, typing that word makes me laugh; it’s so juvenile)–I came in after the whole “racist” conversation. Now that you’ve taken a chill pill (:-P), I’m sure you can get answers to some of the questions you have.

    To whomever said the “2 ears, 1 mouth” comment (Luna?): That was priceless! I want to tape it to my dorm room door–I can think of a few neighbors who could use a reminder. :-)


  462. First I want to say I have really enjoyed reading these post. Some of you have a LOT to say and that is good. I have dated black women all of my life. I may have dated a couple of white women. But,I have always been attracted to black women. Light,dark, medium,never seemed to matter much. Five years ago I met a black woman,and a feeling came over me like I had never had before. I knew this was the woman I wanted to spend the rest of my life with.

    Come to find out, she felt the same way. I am the first and only white guy she ever dated. Today we are together and going strong. Neither of us have 4 or 5 college degrees, high school was as far as we got. I am 50 years old, she is 47. I am from Tennessee, she is from Michigan. You should see the look on some faces when they hear this southern drawl, and then I introduce my wife. A kodak moment. Racism? I have learned not to fret over things I can’t change. Racism is every where. I am 50 and have worked in every state in the union. I can honestly say the south has taken a few extra lumps we didn’t deserve, racism is every where.

    My wife is dark,petite,perfect feet,legs,hips,waist,breast,lips,and nose. When I wake up in the morning and I see her I am thankful to be alive. So, to all of you white guys, I wish you the best on finding the second best black woman on earth.


  463. Azrazyel:

    We had to call you on your racism. If we had not then you (and others reading this) would have assumed there was nothing racist in your view of black women. Then you would have found out the hard way.

    I for one was not scorning you but trying to point out your error. Maybe I could have used better words, but I felt I had to be direct because you did not seem to be getting it. You did not strike me as mean-spirited. It just seemed like you did not know any better due to your upbringing.


  464. RamblinRick,

    You have made my point. The older you are the less likely you are concerned with the opinions of people who wouldn’t otherwise give a damned about you.

    Life is yours to live.

    Shalom!


  465. Azrazyel at #385 said:

    Would you consider letting us put a picture of ourselves here online? I know this isn’t a dating site, but it would be nice to see those who I am talking to. (Well,if they decide to anyway.)

    You can do this by setting your own avatar here:

    http://en.gravatar.com/

    That will replace the picture in the upper right-hand corner of your comments.


  466. Oh thanks abagond.

    I didn’t realize I could do that.


  467. on Sun 30 Aug 2009 at 19:07:17 bunchesofoats

    nice picture azrazyel :) you’re very blond


  468. Luna,

    I agree wholeheartedly. I quit banging my head against the wall of racism many years ago. As a matter of fact I don’t mind the racists that are loud and outspoken, at least I know who they are.

    I’m not a racist, but there are people I don’t like. People who “know” they are better than everyone else. People who think the world owes them a living. I depise tv evangelists. And, there has only been one politician in my lifetime that I had any respect for. Al Gore Sr. He did more for civil rights than most people know. I wish I had the same respect for his son.


  469. Thanks bunchesofoats.


  470. It’s pathetic that I have to use a dating site to find a black woman. Why can’t I just approach one without all the negatives that I think in my head while trying to do so?

    Please tell me I am not insane. Why do so MANY white men AND black women resort to dating sites to find love with one another?

    If it WAS so easy, why have these dating sites to begin with?

    ***********************************
    A lot of your questions have been resolved, but I will l only add that online dating is perfectly acceptable and is now mainstream and no—dating is not easy for anyone no matter what race, gender, religion or sexual orientation. It’s a challenge in general for everyone thus your experience is not unique. All kinds of people use it as a tool to meet those who interest them and they have different dating sites for everybody from brainy scientists, disabled persons, tall people, little people and of course those who want interracial. If you can deal with your own personal hang-ups, online dating can be a useful tool to meet people that you are interested in, although I would suggest that it not be your only avenue of inquiry.

    I still think that you are making it too hard. I have delineated why IR has problems, but your biggest advantage is your age and since you said that you are in your twenties—that is the best time to IR date, since Gen Y, the Millenials, and below usually isn’t saddled with as many racial hang-ups, therefore you are more apt to meet a Black woman that may like you back. Still, dating and courting is a risky venture, it takes a certain level of practice and acquired skill to learn to deal with rejection, learn social cues, be social in general if you are not a natural extrovert and be able to roll with the punches and move on. If you are risk averse then it will take that much longer to meet those who match your criteria.

    All in all, it is up to you and any other Man who likes and wants to meet women that may not fall into the mainstream. Social convention in which the man takes the initiative is not going to change, thus it is to your best interest to deal as just a natural part of life and take each woman that you meet as an individual and not as a monolith. And although a Black woman comes with unique challenges that we did not create, we are in the end just women who want the respect, love, and understanding that any other good, normal woman deserves.


  471. Thanks mayhue.

    But right now I am most comfortable online to meet new people. All things considered, I have never interacted with blacks in my entire life.

    This is a way for me to learn the culture and their interests on an individual basis.

    Right now I am not so much seeking a relationship with a black woman, I know I am definitely not ready for that. I have much to learn and the internet is a great place for me to mingle and to build confidence and learn the differences of the cultural aspect and tools that I feel I must learn first.

    Why jump in right away without a clue of the culture and possibly waste my time with someone when I feel I haven’t matured enough into the cultural aspect?

    Yes a woman is a woman in the end, I know that black women ARE women just like anyone else.

    I feel it is in my best interest to get to know some people first before jumping into something I feel I am not prepared for.

    Yes, I could definitely see myself dating/marrying a black woman someday, just like any other woman, but I want to make sure I am comfortable and ready to do so first especially if I meet someone I really like/love.

    You may see this as an experiment. Experiment is, well to me, someone who jumps in right away to see ‘how it is.’ Not my intentions here. This is something I really am interested in so talking/mingling/making friends with people while learning from others I feel is best suitable for me.

    Az


  472. I have never had a problem finding black women to date. I do believe they like a man to be a little bit ascertive. If you have sometihing on your mind, speak up. But, be nice. Don’t jump into the black white conversation right off the bat. That can come at a later date,hopefully after you get to know each other better. Any woman, black or white likes to laugh, so a sense of humor is always a plus. I do know a black womans likes a man that can cook. That’s why over the years I have managed to work myself up to the posistion of chef extraordinaire.


  473. abagond Says:
    Azrazyel:

    We had to call you on your racism. If we had not then you (and others reading this) would have assumed there was nothing racist in your view of black women. Then you would have found out the hard way.

    I for one was not scorning you but trying to point out your error. Maybe I could have used better words, but I felt I had to be direct because you did not seem to be getting it. You did not strike me as mean-spirited. It just seemed like you did not know any better due to your upbringing.

    laromana says,
    Abagond,
    I agree 100% with your above response to Azrazyel and (although I may have been misunderstood by some)I responded strongly to him for the very same reasons.

    I know that none of us can ever really know exactly what a poster’s TRUE intention is in writing certain comments, but I am commited to always challenging ANTI-BW LIES, MYTHS, and STEREOTYPES with the intention of helping to DESTROY them and help promote a PRO-BW view of the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY of BW.


  474. laromana:

    Not trying to be rude, but your approach comes off as an internet bot looking to scorn words that you deem ‘inappropriate’ when talking about black women.

    Look I have moved on. I am still learning here and other places as well.

    I don’t need a moderator who fixates on every word I say and write.

    I have long said black women are the most beautiful/gorgeous race of women on this planet.

    I am definitely not trying to prove anything to you nor do I want to. I don’t mind people helping me realize my erroneous ways at times with a calm approach.

    You seem way over the top and out of my control. If people want to help me that’s fine. I can admit my wrongdoings.

    Just please quit following me around whenever you see something unacceptable because I can base from the caps in your writing, you seem to me looking for a target to scorn someone with.

    If you want to disagree, I can live with that.

    It’s black women like you (no offense) that is exactly what scares me away. Down to earth people who can have a calm, cool and collected conversation is what I enjoy and welcome to accompany.

    I know I have done wrong as we all have, I just don’t need someone correcting my points of views every time I have something to say. It’s not just you in particular, but your approach to it.


  475. Ramblinrick,

    I agree that Black women like guys to be more assertive. Usually, that’s what we are used to, and some White guys are timid to the point that it’s hard to tell if they are interested or not. I notice that in general, they tend to operate using a lot of eye signals, lol.


  476. Jasmins11,

    I like that about black women. If they are interested, you will know. If they are not, you will definitely know. you’re right, white guys are timid. I wet through that myself. I was working construction ata hospital. Every morning I crossed paths with a very beautiful NA. One morning i said to her,”you wouldn’t go out with a white guy would you?” She said, “maybe I’ll show you sometime.” She just walked off, and I stood there with my mouth open catching flies. Like an idiot I never asked her out. But. I never forgot that day, I learned from that experience.

    I read these post about black women with an “attitude”. I have found out most of these women are in, trying to get out of, or just got out of a really abusive relationship, so they told me. Given a chance to relax a bit, they are no different than most women. i also like to laugh, and black women can be very funny and light spirited. Just like me and my “ol’ lady” we make each other laugh. But, like I said, it really helps knowing how to cook.


  477. ramblinrick says:

    “One morning i said to her,”you wouldn’t go out with a white guy would you?” She said, “maybe I’ll show you sometime.” She just walked off, and I stood there with my mouth open catching flies. Like an idiot I never asked her out. But. I never forgot that day, I learned from that experience.”

    Dear God,

    If only I could get to that stage and grow some cahonies and be able to do that. LOL

    Maybe one of these days….


  478. Azrazyel,

    I suspect you are young. Well, at my age, that doesn’t mean REALLY young, younger than myself. I think you are being torn by mixed emotions, and that is normal. I have dated a lot of black women and there were a LOT of disappointments. I see things in my past as part of a building process. I do not regret the disappointments of my past, because that path has lead me where I am today. The most beautiful black woman in the world that I love very much. All of the disappointments in the past are worth it.

    So, if you see a black woman that strikes your fancy say something to her. Remember, be nice, don’t jump right into the BW conversation,and LEARN HOW TO COOK!!!


  479. Yes I am 28.

    I understand guys face rejection all the time. Getting rejected by a black woman would be like getting rejected by a white woman or any other woman for that matter.

    I don’t have a clue how to cook. lol

    My brother is a chef so maybe I need to ask him some tips for some things. lol

    Good talking with ya and take care


  480. Azrazyel,
    I’m NEITHER “FOLLOWING YOU” or trying to “CENSOR” YOU.

    We DON’T KNOW each other so STOP INFLATING the importance of your opinions as they relate to me.

    Like ANYONE ELSE on this blog, I’m FREE to comment about any post (INCLUDING YOURS) REGARDLESS of whether we agree or not.


  481. being a white male in my 40s I have dated women of ALL races and ages, to me I prefer a black woman of dark skin tone, these are the nost beautiful women in the world to me. I love everything about a black woman from the top of their heads to the bottom of their feet there is nothning like seeing a black woman of any skin tone wlaking down the strret ALL woman of african american heritage should be proud of themselves for being the most beautiful women in the world. By the way I have been married to a beautiful intelligent woman of red bone complexion for 15 years and going strong. Oh Yeah black women have the most perfects butts, sorry for the stereotype butt, its true!!! All love to the black woman john from toledo ohio


  482. Anyone is free to comment on anyone else’s comment.


  483. Since my last two posts were edited out laromana,

    It was a pleasure talking to you.

    (:


  484. I know that abagond.

    I feel like I am being attacked every time someone (insert name here) disagrees with me.

    Why were my posts edited?

    I didn’t use any vulgar language.

    Hmmm……lol


  485. Because you called her names. Attack her statements, not her. I deleted some of hers for the same reason.


  486. Sorry abagond. I apologize.

    Sometimes my typy fingers get too worked up….lol


  487. Azrazyel,

    Tell me something, why is starting a relationship with a black woman so important to you? It seem a bit inappropriate. It’s almost an obsession.

    The reason I ask is most people who start dating interracially do so as an after thought. The meet someone. The consider the other person’s race as nothing more than a physical attribute — like eye color or hair cut. You seem to be on a mission.

    The first white man I dated was a friend of a friend. It was very casual. We eventually married.


  488. I already stated I don’t want a relationship right now. It’s not important to me as much as getting accustomed to the culture.

    And so what if I like them. It was an afterthought before. I am exploring my options to see what else is out there.

    I am not closed minded like most, I can appreciate a woman as a woman no matter the color.

    Are you telling me I’m obsessive?

    Jeesh….I can’t win in here. First it’s you know who, now it’s you.

    So much for trying to learn the culture, apparently I seem not to learn anything in here other than people hating on me.

    (Shaking his head)


  489. I’m just asking the question because I don’t understand. I try not to pass judgments that’s why I ask questions.

    You really have to stop taking everything so very personally. If this is the way you respond to my questions, your relationship could be doomed before it gets started.


  490. Plus I already know I wouldn’t get along with at least 70-80% of black women due to my music preferences.

    So yes, it will probably be that much harder.


  491. “If this is the way you respond to my questions, your relationship could be doomed before it gets started.”

    Yes your probably right.

    But yes, asking if I am obsessive, I take that in the same vein as being a peeping tom or a stalker.

    Jeeze-o-weez


  492. Sorry Luna:

    Bad day at work.

    You see, I work with mentally disabled people which can be very strenuous at times, then in turn settles with me for the rest of the day.

    I’m not one easily relaxed, I wish I was more but work can be tough.

    To answer your question. I’m not obsessive in any way, shape or form.

    I’ve stated I don’t and never had any black friends. I am not around any black women to ‘become’ friends with. Everything here where I live is secluded.

    Blacks with blacks and whites with whites.

    I really don’t have a chance to mingle with anyone outside my race.

    So yes, the internet is my best avenue as of now.

    Think of it as a kid going to a brand new school far away and not having a clue who anyone is or if he will even make friends with anybody. Brand new people and brand new faces which he isn’t accustomed to.

    That’s what it is like for me trying to learn the black culture and it’s people.

    Let me ask you this.

    Does it strike you weird because I know exactly what I am attracted to?

    I love all races but black women is my focus.

    Kind of like wanting to get a new vehicle. One is red but you want one with black and won’t settle for red because it’s not your interest.

    I am focused (not obsessive please) on black women because I so happen to find them attractive.

    Everything happens for a reason. I am a religious man, and believe God has set forth my destiny in this direction.

    Maybe there is something a black woman can provide for me, and I for her that no other woman can do.

    Yes it is my choice that I am interested. Please don’t think of it as obsessive other than a white man unaccustomed to the black culture and trying to learn and meet new people as much as he can.

    Take care


  493. abagond,
    Thanks for always being a gentleman and fair to everyone who posts on this blog.

    It always DISTURBS me when ANY man claims to like/want to get to know BW and then turns around and DISRESPECTS/DEMEANS a BW when she challenges any NEGATIVE views/attitudes he may have about BW.


  494. I have made peace with you laromana. (:

    Take care.


  495. We are all have our preferences. I tend to be attracted to highly intelligent men.

    We have a couple of things in common: working in social service and being persons of faith. I used to work in social service. The majority of my clients were schizophrenic. My co-workers called me the “Queen of the Schizophrenics.” I understand the stress of the work. You really need to spend less time in front of your computer and more time with balanced people. You need the support. It helped me stay sane.

    As a person of faith it is important to have faith. There are times we fight for control when we really need to give up control. I think you’re working so hard to find your one and only you may just frighten her off.

    Again, I say, “Breathe!”


  496. I’m always around balanced people such as my friends and family.

    Sometimes I feel like I am losing my faith…..I dunno why. {Very saddening}


  497. Anyone like or write poetry?

    I write and will share if anyone cares so. (:


  498. I like poetry, anything artistic.


  499. Okay. I’ll share two tonight then some more tomorrow. Gotta work….blah!

    ‘To a Breathless Cause’

    My sins now weep to a ghostly breath,
    This pain and sorrow inflicts my death.
    This world turned to misery and hate,
    All my fears I cannot escape.

    Afraid to find the answers I seek,
    Tired, worn, numb and weak.
    Tears that form mirror the pain inside,
    Suffocating into silent cries.

    Anger forms then turns to sin,
    Searing thoughts unleashed within.
    Darkness falls and then descends,
    Upon my soul, without end.

    Screams of fears I cannot break,
    Trapped inside, I see my fate.
    Shadows of darkness that whispers lies,
    Gleam of solitude unfound, despised.

    An epic end and without time,
    From clemency, I’ve been denied.

    Robusting shadows in my dreams,
    Forms then fades between the screams.
    A life once felt now without means,
    Beaten down, I scar and bleed.

    A solid state crumbles away,
    Darkness drives the light in vain.
    A cloud of dust from my remains,
    A final gasp then breath escapes.

    The deepest darkest realm on Earth,
    Inflicts the pain of unending hurt.
    A selfish mind that I put first,
    Letting free the lessons learned.

    Shameful greed I’ve shunned my way,
    Withdrawn, I whisk in flames.
    From these hands I’ve seen disgrace,
    I look to blame but view displace.

    Sending forth with words of hate,
    Deception written across my face.
    I fall into the eyes of defeat,
    The enemy yells and boastfully speaks.

    Crushed down I feel so weak,
    Ending sorrow but find deceit.
    Anger feeds this fire within,
    Brushing flames to burn my sin.

    Tearing the lies all light is dim,
    Evil despised the path to him.

    With no avail I feel at loss,
    This nightmare holds ‘To a Breathless Cause’.

    Written by me July 2009

    ‘Whispers in the Forest’

    Darkness drives the wind of night, An endless forest with endless sight,
    Trees sway at the constant beat, Of the trembling at the ground beneath.

    Silence pierces all that’s still, With fear in those who seek the light,
    Howls and cries of the lonesome ones, Remains in place, Remains undone.

    Fear is few and far in between, The silent ones who remain unseen,
    The moon eclipses through the dark, To the abyss it has been charred.

    The forest stirs with mighty wind, Unrest is found from deep within,
    A final cry cracks the night, The light of dawn is now in sight.

    The restless ones now lay in peace, The stir of whispers have fled their dreams.

    Written by me April 2009


  500. So you do have a soul;). I can assure you, if you allow yourself to be the person you just showed us she will see it, too. Stop trying to be someone you aren’t.


  501. I have to acknowledge that I’ve enjoyed your blog very much. I’ve always wondered what WM thought of BW. Interesting comments. I’m a BW and I live in the south. It is very rare that I see a WM/BW couple. Does it tend to be a lot of WM/BW couples up North due to the non-stigma of racism/prejudice that is so evident in the south? Tho i’m not dating a WM I do find WM attractive. I prefer WM with dark hair, tan, with an athletic build. But I also like WM with a sort of darkness to them I guess the one actor I can think of to give you an example is Johnny Depp.

    I would like to point out that although i do not see WM/BW couples a lot, when I do see them it’s usually a BW with natural hair, light or dark skin with a slim build.


  502. I’ve traveled quite a bit. I experienced more racism in the Midwest than any other part of the country. I grew up in Virginia.

    My ex-husband and I were refused service in a greasy IHOP in Milwaukee.


  503. Amen Luna,

    you are right on point. I have worked in almost every state in the union. Over the years I have found as you, the midwest is really racist. Chicago is one of the most racist cities I know of. The south gets a bad rap.

    I am from Tennessee, and I grew up on a farm. Next to my grandfather’s farm were two farms owned by black men. At that time, the most important was making a living. My grand father was down for six months, due to back surgery. The two black men would work their farm, then my grandfather’s farm. I was ten years old at the time, and I will never forget these men. I certainly would hate to go back there, but I do not regret my childhood. There, I learned to respect people. If I wanted to know about black culture, I read a book. If I wanted to know about black people I got out amongst them.

    I have said all of that to say this, Iam proud to have grown up in the south. I am certainly glad I didn’t grow up in the midwest, or a lot of places up north.

    Luna, I love the way you think.


  504. Thank you, Rick.


  505. Drea says:

    “I’m a BW and I live in the south. It is very rare that I see a WM/BW couple. Does it tend to be a lot of WM/BW couples up North due to the non-stigma of racism/prejudice that is so evident in the south?”

    No. I have never seen a white man and a black woman together. It’s unknown here as well.

    There is just as much stigma in the north as the south. Racism knows no boundaries.

    People always talk about seeing WM/BW couples to which I believe them, but I have personally never seen one.


  506. Aww, how sad that my hometown gets such a bad rap!

    I’m from Chicago, and I don’t notice much overt racism (though of course I know it’s there), but I always hear about the Midwest being racist. This may be due to the fact that I seem to be quite a bit younger than most of you, and I haven’t really travelled around the Midwest outside of Chicago. I go to school in Indiana, so I couldn’t say how many BW/WM couples I see in Chicago on a regular basis, but I’ve never had anyone say they had a problem with it in front of me. People said that the Cracker Barrel by my house used to be racist (though I think Cracker Barrel has that rep throughout the country), but the racism I’ve encountered seems to have mainly been against Black people in general, not Black women. In fact, I can think of at least a few friends from high school whose parents loved me, but who I’m pretty sure would never allow me to set foot in their house if I were a Black male.


  507. Racism is a tool used by the rich and powerful to maintain control. I can remember as a young man I was told the low life black man was my problem. He was to sorry to work. I was told to vote for a cerian individual, “He will get the N’s in line” I was fortunate in the fact there were a few older white that didn’t feel that way. My grandfather would tell me ‘Can’t judge a book by the cover’ At the time it was way over my head. But those words stuck in my head. As I grew older they had a real meaning.


  508. I am a black female married to a White male.

    I am 5ft5 and weigh around 145. I do carry my weight pretty well, and give off the appearance that I’m atheletic…but I am a little bit on the heavy side.

    My husband is a White and on the more slimmer side…and he admitted to me that he is very attracted to my curves…as opposed to his ex who was very tiny thin and happened to be a White female.

    Before I met him I had dated White men who really wanted to be in a serious relationship, and also wanted children and marriage. I had never thought at all of it as being due to my skin complexion or anything like that.

    My father is a very dark skinned Black man, and my mom is a Black woman who has a very light bright skin tone. Sometimes people say I do kinda look like a biracial Asian mix, but I disagree because I think I look way more ethnic black because of my facial features and curlier hair. I think I take after my father alot, we have the same nose and ears and lips etc…I think people saying that about me looking mixed is ignorance because we as Black people have all types of skin tones, facial features and hair textures…So I don’t buy into that.

    Before I met my husband or even dated White men, there weren’t really any Black men showing me interests. I never really considered being with a White man at all back then, even though I had found some of them attractive. I was very interested Black men and I’m not sure if its because of just growing up where I did or what but I thought I had to be with a Black man…and thats who I was always attracted to.

    Now this was in the 1980s and I’m only speaking from my own personal experiences…most of the black men were only interested in very darker skinned females or ones who were extremely light white/or completely white. In betweens were not really the very popular types of females.

    All throughout high school, college, post college etc…it seemed that most of the attention I got from any men period were White. I can’t explain it and I don’t understand it…I guess that’s just how it happened. It could be due to the location of where I live etc…I do live really deep in the South.


  509. RamblinRick,

    I agree racism is a tool of the powerful to manipulate the masses. Even today, people are getting so angry about a health care bill that hasn’t been completed. They rely too much on what they’ve “heard”, not what they know.

    There is very little racism in the military because people are forced to interact with each other on a very personal level.

    Getting to know people, not racial symbols, is important to me.


  510. is there a white men who black women liek post??


  511. Luna,

    What you are saying about the military? There is very little racism because people are FORCED to interact. Hmmm. Oh, there is still racism, they are just in a posistion where they dare not express their true feelings.


  512. I’m not saying there isn’t racism in the military. I’ve experienced it first hand.

    What I’m saying, for those who are not hard core racists, many of those attitudes tend to fall away. The hard core types are live in such a state of fear no one can get close to them.

    Racist make me a power. Why else would anyone fear such a self-assured, peace-loving woman such as myself. Their fear makes me a force to be recond with. Wow what a DIVA I am. ;)


  513. peanut Says:
    is there a white men who black women liek post??

    laromana Says:
    Great question. I would love to see it, too. I remember abagond mentioned doing a post on this topic but I haven’t seen it yet.


  514. “White men that black women like” is very complicated. If you asked 300 black women what they’re attracted too you’d get 300 different answers.

    As for me, send me a geek!


  515. “White men that black women like” – that is in the works, but it is much harder than this post.


  516. Abagond:

    Why is it harder?


  517. on Sat 5 Sep 2009 at 20:11:44 therighttoparty

    perhaps its the fact he’s assuming the role of a black female and not a white man…


  518. When I see a couple together I almost always look at the woman, not the man. Men do not interest me. I only look closely at the man if he is much shorter, uglier, older or geekier – because then at that point I am wondering, “How in the world did he get this woman? What is his secret?”

    Also, men go mainly by looks, way more so than women, so it is easier to pin down what they like by just looking at who they are with.


  519. Oh ok, gotcha abagond.

    Thanks.


  520. Abagond

    You should do a post on “White men that black woman like”

    Unless you the stereotypical black guy that hates black woman with white men!


  521. Why would you say that Wayne?

    Maybe you see something I don’t?

    Please elaborate…..


  522. on Sat 5 Sep 2009 at 23:28:36 mynameismyname

    Luna is right on the money.

    Ask 10 different black women what they find attractive in a man and you will get ten (possibly radically) different answers. Every woman is just so different. That’s one of the things that makes women so beautiful.

    I argue that men are just as diverse in that area too. Much more so than many people give us/them credit for.


  523. I am a white female,when i was younger i seemed to have been attracted to darker skinned men.I just liked that bad boy image,the type we see in all those videos.I dated several black men,but it just never seemed to work out.They never really had much ambition,nor any motivation for work.I dismissed all this, for i may not have understood it’s importance at the time.I wanted a family and a life that secured my children.I just wanted a better life but had a hard time finding this with black men.I have a great job,i work as an accountant for a large firm.I now have found a mate who is of Italian heritage,with great family values and financial stability.We have recently been married and this has to be the best choice i have ever made in my life.My advice to anyone reading this is to just be wise,make the best choices for your future.Life is way too short for watching others succeed,live life to the fullest.


  524. “I dated several black men,but it just never seemed to work out.They never really had much ambition,nor any motivation for work.”

    I cringe at the thought of you saying that. I know of some black men who are hard working and take care of their families. Although I didn’t see you say ‘all’, I am just reassuring you there are many black men who are good people and do what is right for their family.


  525. Azrazyel,

    You are absolutely right. I am a union electrician, and have been in the trade for 30 years. I have worked in almost every state in the union. In these past 30 years I have had the privilege of working with some black men that were jam up and jelly tight. They took care of thier families, and they were real craftsmen of the trade. It was an honor to work beside these men. Some I have not seen in 10 or 15 years, but we still talk.


  526. Rachel,

    What make you think that if your previous relationship didn’t worked out, that’s because the men were black men who did’t have ambition,nor any motivation for work etc…
    But now u are happy for ur Italian mate.

    You said yourself you were young(and them too), mabye that why it didn’t work out.
    Have you ever asked yourself why you were in relationship with these(black) men?

    As a woman( and black), I am just so fed up to hear people blaming the race when their relationship doesn’t work, sometimes that’s nothing to do with but more about attraction and compatibility!

    It’s difficult to find a husband, mate etc… in any race for every women.

    I know plenty good men, some appear to be black and they are good father, husband and hardworker.


  527. nubiah,

    Touche!


  528. on Sun 6 Sep 2009 at 14:43:41 leigh204 formerly known as L.T.

    Very well said, nubiah!


  529. I think Rachel was thinking this was an anti-Black Man site.

    Before I found this site I’ve spent much of my dating life trying to understand why white men find me more attractive than black men.

    It is amazing to me when I have done online dating I got more responses from white men than black. For every 20 white men to respond, maybe one black man would respond.


  530. Jeesh Luna:

    I didn’t know you thought white men showing more interest than black men was such a terrible thing.

    And people call me anti-black……


  531. Luna says:

    I think Rachel was thinking this was an anti-Black Man site.

    LOL!LOL!LOL!

    again as I said above, being unlucky in love that’s nothing to do with the race of your partner but sometimes because you made the bad choice.

    She said herself, she was attracted to that bad boy image,the type she saw see in all those videos.

    no wonder with the kind of man, she was dating.( no offence Rachel)


  532. I think it’s curious that black men seem to view me as a less desirable choice. It makes a girl wonder some times. ;-)


  533. From a cultural prospective, it would be easier for me to date a middle class black man. There are things I would not have to explain.


  534. Understood.

    What I don’t understand is why you hate the fact white men give you attention like it’s a horrific thing.

    Why are you here then if you find white men undesirable?

    It’s like me saying I hate the fact that black women approach me because it ruins my public image as well as degrading me as a white man.


  535. All in all Luna,

    stay with your own race because you will find it much easier.

    You said it yourself, just don’t pretend to like white men and then complain about the fact they give you attention.

    It conflicts itself.


  536. Luna, I’m in the same situation as you. I am approached generally by every race with the exception of black. But I take a positive approach to that. I think it just gives you more options. I’ve never been the type to limit myself in any area (not saying that you do).

    If black men overlook you – I’m sure it’s their loss.


  537. I’m not complaining. I always asked,”Why.” If given the chance I would spend my life in academia. I feel good about who I am. It is my nature to ask questions.


  538. No means to offend:

    You seem desperate?

    I would want somebody who doesn’t question why a white man approaches her. She has an open mind and loves all races. The other ones on the flipside are the bad apples I avoid.

    Maybe that’s why you don’t have one? Hm….dunno.


  539. islandgirl:

    How could black men not approach you?

    You look white, black men date white women.

    I don’t see the trouble.


  540. Island and Luna, do you have an idea why you are more approached by non-black men?

    I am just curious.


  541. I am trying not to offend here.

    I ask questions too.

    For me, it seems lately Asian women show more interest in me than white women. Don’t get me wrong…I LOVE Asian women..lol I just wonder why I don’t seem to click with the right white women.

    I stated before I am interested in black women but I thought about it hard recently and the chances of me bringing her home to mam and dad or having a lasting relationship is abundantly slim.

    I like them but I really can’t ever see myself marrying one. I will still talk online to them and maybe somehow a spark from nowhere might happen, but I feel too weird about the fact to date a black woman.

    It’s more cultural and marriageable material issues that dwell within me. It’s a rarity (for me at least) to find a black woman on the same level as I am and click on all aspects.

    But I am happy I am open to the possibilities of playing the field to find a suitable partner that makes me feel comfortable.

    Have a good day


  542. I agree with Luna and Islandgirl–I couldn’t tell you the last time a Black guy approached me, but I attract White guys all time. I agree with Islandgirl, it’s definitely not a bad thing (and I don’t think Luna was implying that, Azrazyel–she didn’t say anything derogatory about White men), but it does make you wonder.

    My guess is that I’m too “skinny” for some (most?) Black guys, even though I’m technically not skinny, more slender. I’ve had White people call me curvy, but no Black male has ever said that. Plus, most of the Black guys at my school seem to date White girls exclusively–I think that would currently be the primary reason, but the first thing I mentioned would more often apply in the “real world”.


  543. Azrazyel,

    I don’t look white. That picture translated a lot lighter for some reason although I tried several of times to adjust color. I am a deep carmel (probably the same as Stacey Dash).

    Nubiah, I have no idea. I don’t know about Luna, but for me maybe my size. I am on the slim side and a lot of black men are so closed to that. But maybe men of other races don’t limit a woman just to size, but are able to see the entire package. But, I am not a man so it’s hard to guess.


  544. Typically white men go for slim women.

    That’s why they date Asian, small and petite.


  545. nubiah Says:

    Island and Luna, do you have an idea why you are more approached by non-black men?

    I am just curious.

    I really don’t understand it. I am a HUGE flirt. I flirt with delivery men, taxi drivers, retail workers, police officers, you name it. I am equal opportunity. It just pain feels good.

    The only men who seriously approach me are usually white. I am conservatively dress with natural hair. I usually have work in positions where few black people work and even fewer men. Maybe it’s just demographics.


  546. Jasmin, I posted this last post before seeing yours. Now that I’ve read your post, I am convinced it’s the size issue. Like you, I’m not skinny but slender. A lot of black men have tried to put me down for it. But other men have appreciated me for me.

    I did wonder about it for a while but then accepted that what will be will be. It doesn’t bother me at all now.


  547. on Sun 6 Sep 2009 at 20:32:57 mynameismyname

    Islandgirl, Jasmine and Luna,

    Where do you guys live? And how would you describe the black guys in your environment? What “types” are they?

    Jasmine, so the white girls and their families are THAT receptive to them dating black men? Really?


  548. Luna:

    Are you thin too, like Jasmin and Islandgirl?


  549. on Sun 6 Sep 2009 at 20:37:22 mynameismyname

    ‘Rachel’ has stereotypical, racist ideas of black men. “Bad boys in the videos”. LOL. Are you serious? No wonder the relationships with the black men she dated didn’t work. Quality black men wouldn’t be interested in a woman who thinks like her. Yet the “low lives” would. Birds of a feather flock together.

    Azraeyel,

    LOL at your comment to Islandgirl. “Well you look white, why wouldn’t black men want to date you?”. LOL. I know its hard for many white men to comphrend but most of your black male counterparts are not thinking about “your women”. I also wonder why such a pretty girl as Islandgirl would trouble attracting ANY man, let alone one of a certain race, but looks don’t make everything happen.


  550. I live in the DC area. Many ambitious black me feel black women are a viable option.

    I have also met a couple of men online. When I post I get very little response for black men — maybe one or two.

    The white men I date tend to have post-graduate degrees. I’m not a snob. It just worked out that way.


  551. abagond Says:

    Luna:

    Are you thin too, like Jasmin and Islandgirl?

    I don’t think I’m thin. I am about 10 lbs heavier than I should be. However, I have narrow hips and large breast.


  552. mynameismyname Says:
    but looks don’t make everything happen.

    I agree 100%. Even though I’m ugly and haven’t had a woman in years, I’m still getting laid.
    Albeit I have to pay for it.


  553. Mynameismyname,

    I am from Chicago, but I currently go to school in Indiana. It’s hard for me to evaluate the guys back home, since I’m rarely there, but as far as guys in my age group I never run into the “studious” types. Here at school, half of the Black guys are athletes, and many of the Black guys (in general) seem to get off on acting stereotypically “Black.” A lot of people subscribe to the “Everything Black is cool” meme, so that doesn’t surprise me, but that’s really not my type.

    Lol, I don’t think a lot of these girls parents know they are dating (or more often, sleeping with) athletes. Off the top of my head I can only think of 2 real couples, the rest are….use your imagination.


  554. Oh my gosh, Jasmin – I also live in Indiana in a very small, depressed town. A lot of black men here are into drugs and in and out of jail. You are so right when you say black men act sterotypical. Dealing drugs is “cute”. They seem interested in living a rap video than trying to get ahead. But that’s most of Indiana with the exception of Bloomington, I.U.. That’s not my type either. Maybe you just have to look at is as a blessing in disguise.

    I’m surprised at the university that you encounter that. I guess it depends on the university.

    Luna, I’m surprised you encounter that in the D.C. area. I’ve always thought men on the East Coast were more progressive.

    Mynameismyname, I was a little offended by his comment. But thanks for your comment!


  555. You should check out craigslist DC. That just about sums things up.


  556. on Sun 6 Sep 2009 at 22:10:37 mynameismyname

    Jasmin,

    What you said makes sense. I’ve of heard of similar scenarios from other blacks (male and female) who went to predominately white univeristies and colleges. You’d think these black male students would take advantage of their education but it is what it is, I guess.

    Luna,

    Do you have a post-grad degree as well? I imagine that these white men you dated were older? I notice that is a pattern with the white men who date black women.

    Lynette,

    You said that right! Size is a touchy issue for black Americans, when it comes to evaluating beauty. Yet, the black women I see all over are all across the board size-wise. As a whole, they don’t seem any skinnier or fatter than their white counterparts.


  557. I haven’t complete my BS. That’s the irony of it all.

    I’m ADD. I’ve have an insatiable curiosity. I lived in Europe. I have a lot of things in common with these men except a formal education.


  558. on Sun 6 Sep 2009 at 23:12:13 leigh204 formerly known as L.T.

    @Lynette:

    I hear ya! Coming from an Asian perspective, I am repeatedly told I don’t possess a stereotypical Asian shape (slim build, small almost non-existent breasts, and no behind). With a height of 5’3″ and 110 lbs., as well as a fairly large bustline, I’ve been told by other Asians that I’m a bit chubby. I don’t think I am, but most of the Asian girls I’ve come across are barely 95 lbs. dripping wet!


  559. I remember going to a shop owned by an asian lady and she almost did want me to try on her clothes because she believed I was going to ruin them because of my built. I am a black women, 5 ft 2, 125 lbs (not skinny, but I don’t consider myself fat or obese either). I felt a little self-conscious about my body after leaving the store, but had to keep in mind that asian women are generally very thin and petite and in her eyes, I probably looked huge!


  560. on Mon 7 Sep 2009 at 00:41:33 mynameismyname

    Islandgirl,

    I’m sorry to offend you as that was my last intent.

    I had no clue the state of Indiana was like that. I know that the city of Gary is notoriously in dire straits.

    Leigh,

    I remember a Korean friend saying something of a similar effect. She was 5’7″ and 130. Others in her community were calling her “fat”. It’s weird because I’ve seen plenty of tall and heavy East Asians. Not all are “small and petite”.


  561. on Mon 7 Sep 2009 at 01:13:20 leigh204 formerly known as L.T.

    @mnimn:

    You’re correct as well. Not all Asians are small and petite. Mind you, the taller and heavier East Asians you see were most likely born and raised in the US, and eat a more Western diet.

    Your Korean friend reminds me of my Korean friend. She’s 5’8″ and 120 lbs. She always lamented to me that her family called her fat, but if you saw this girl you wouldn’t think so. I mean, I even saw some ribs jutting out.

    While your friend isn’t fat by any means especially in North America, but according to East Asian standards, she is. It’s silly, I know. Any size above a size small is considered too large.


  562. mynameismyname,

    No, you didn’t offend me! Azaryel’s comment was offensive. I thought what you said was nice.


  563. Luna,
    We BW need to ONLY have relationships with QUALITY men of ANY race who DON’T ACCEPT ANTI-BW LIES, MYTHS, AND STEREOTYPES and who respect our HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY.


  564. Islandgirl,

    I can’t imagine living here permanently! How do you do it? I’m in Northern Indiana, not even 90 minutes from my house, and I am still itching to get back to Chicago (or anywhere besides this wasteland) once I graduate.

    Mynameismyname,

    Most of the students here aren’t from Indiana, so I think it might be our specific college environment moreso than the state, but from what I’ve seen of the “townies” (as we call them), Islandgirl’s assessments are right on.

    Leigh204,

    We are the same height and size! Guess I’m chubby. :-P


  565. Jasmin:

    wasteland – I know what you mean.


  566. laromana Says:

    Luna,
    We BW need to ONLY have relationships with QUALITY men of ANY race who DON’T ACCEPT ANTI-BW LIES, MYTHS, AND STEREOTYPES and who respect our HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY.

    Laromana,

    I’ve reached a place of self-acceptance in my life. I am not despairing. I am not desperate. I am not mourning the loss of attention from uninspired, emotionally stunted, criminal men.

    I love my hair that defiantly resists straightening. I love my long legs. I love my full lips. I love my chocolate skin. That is who I am.

    The advancing years have been good to me. I laugh more, love passionately, and give freely. I appreciate the kindness of strangers — no matter the color of the wrapping.

    So, my dear friends, I am the last person you need to pity. However I thank you for your care.


  567. Luna,

    Yep. I certainly agree with you. Sometimes, I think I would love being 21 again. But right now is the best time of my life.


  568. “I haven’t complete my BS. That’s the irony of it all.
    I’m ADD. I’ve have an insatiable curiosity. I lived in Europe. I have a lot of things in common with these men except a formal education.”

    Same here. Exactly that. And most of the guys I dated (and now married) have post-graduate degrees.
    Interesting, isn’t it?

    Although, people with ADD/ADHD tend to have above-average intelligence (with it becoming more prevalent the higher up the IQ-scale one goes, as with all LDs) so I guess it’s not really that surprising. Although where ADD starts and DOE ends is still up for discussion.

    I have read some studies about highly and profoundly gifted women (with and without ADHD). They usually end up as housewives, like me. It’s sort of ironic, really.

    But I guess this is totally off-topic…


  569. I am a Puerto Rican male, military. I have always dated black women because of the many virtues and beautiful qualities black women have, besides that I am a fan of full lips and curves…
    What I value of black women (yes, I would date the ones you showed like some white dudes would not date) is the unconditional way they committ to a partner, once they believe that God is color-blind and they are loved for who they are. Tel. 601-596-6667


  570. I am a white dude, and I have always dated black women. I would date every woman on both lists. I would not want to be the one to decide who went on what list. Hair style is not important. I prefer a slim woman, but a few extra pounds ain’t bad. Skin color, I like women with dark skin.


  571. Luna Says:

    I think it’s curious that black men seem to view me as a less desirable choice. It makes a girl wonder some times.

    laromana Says:
    Luna,
    You misunderstood my comment if you think I pity you. Good for you for having a healthy sense of self acceptance and self esteem. My comment was in response to what you said in your above comment and an affirmation of the PRO-BW stance I’d like to see ALL BW take in their personal relationships with men in general.


  572. I can remember when I was a little girl that my opinion of myself came from the men in my life.

    My dad who was not my biological father,is a very dark man. I am the second oldest of five children and the oldest girl. I am sandwiched between a brother who is very light and a sister who is very light. Every time there was something “special” to give out I always got it but with a comment. “why can’t you be more like your sister”. I knew what that meant. It made me try harder to want his attention. I wanted to be his special daughter for once! But it never happened. He paid special attention to my sister and gave her what she wanted. That caused a rift between she and I, and it made me dislike him. It caused fights and left me empty. So much so, that I did not think I would come up from this abyss. And when you feel like that about yourself, it translate to others and they begin to treat you that way. Needless to say, it took alot of soul searching and solitude for me become the woman that I am. No one can tell you how YOU should feel, but you. I love my father, but we are not close. And oh BTW, it did not help that I was thicker than my sister.

    So as I went into my adult womanhood, I looked for anything other than a black man. I did not want one and knew (at that time) I would not be happy with one.

    So whomever I could find was the answer. Wrong! I was settling for things that were not for me. Lets just say I had a wake up call and it let me know that I was on the wrong path. What I know now is to love who I am and be happy with everything god gave me. I am not quite full circle, but I am further along than I have ever been. It comes down to what others have been saying: “Love yourself and others will love you”. Its like the old adage “God does not give you more than you can handle”.

    So if he sees fit to send me a wm, bm, am, hm….I think I should take what I have been given, explore from that and keep gettin up!


  573. Thank you Luna……


  574. Who really cares what white men like. I hope it’s not some sort of implication tht Black women should try to behave a certain way, look a certain way to catch a white man. I don’t even really go for white guys. But, I get hit on them all the time!


  575. Interesting that you have Heather Headley on the list of BW that WM would not find attractive and she IS MARRIED TO A WHITE MAN.


  576. Kendra Says:

    “Who really cares what white men like. I hope it’s not some sort of implication tht Black women should try to behave a certain way, look a certain way to catch a white man. I don’t even really go for white guys. But, I get hit on them all the time!”

    Kendra,
    I think I’m like many black women who find this site. I am a catch. I am well traveled, well read, intelligent black woman.

    However accomplished black me show little or no interest in me. But accomplished white men do. The question for me was, “Why?” This site has help me understand half of the equation. It would disappoint me to discover the reason black men are put off by me because I am not the preferred hue.


  577. I am so happy to run into a blog that has addressed all of the pros and cons of being b/w dating wm.

    I myself am a mixed black woman who looks like Stacey Dash..I am tall 5’9 and slim with a butt lol, and have always loved and respected brothers but yet have been asked out repeatedly by guys of other races. I have always heard the same comments that you are skinny, or I am an oreo, or I talk white etc… by brothers! So I have not given up on black men but I have decided to go where I am wanted.

    I have faced a lot of flack from co-workers, and extended family due to my decision. After reading all of the posts on here I feel that I no longer feel alone in my feelings and thoughts. I am so glad to see people that are intelligent as well as well-informed on this matter. I wish that most of America had this maturity and openness to ir dating for wm and bw.

    I am loving the fact that this blog shows that in spite of whatever complexion, size, and/or shape of a b/w that we all face the same hangups and degradation by the media. I wish that there were more accurate representations of us in the media so that white males like Azraeyel would not feel like they have to be schooled in race relations before approaching us. I feel like the rest of you, that we are women and irregardless of what our complexions, background, or location that we just want someone who can value and love us for being us.

    It was not too long ago that a man had a dream that we would all be judged by the content of our character instead of the color of our skin. It is just sad that America still idealizes white beauty (which is definitely not a shared semtiment worldwide), and demoralize the black woman such as (Sara Baartman).

    Anyways, I like and will continue to like dating white guys. I believe that they (figuratively) like black women have much to gain from the relationship.

    So much kudos to you Abagond for this blog…:-) I am loving all of your posts especially Luna and Black&German.. Some of the things you two have posted were things that I have said, thought, and said again.. lol


  578. Thanks. If you have any suggestions for posts, let me know.


  579. I love this blog.I read a LOT more than I write. Luna and I always seem to be on the same page. Azraeyel,he wants to learn about the black culture first. Well, I am 51 yrs old and I have dated black women all of my life, and I don’t know that much about black culture. My interest was always in THE woman. Friends have always ask me,”What is about the black women?” I could not give them an answer. I never tried to analyze my feelings. Now, I am married to the most beautiful,wonderful, and amazing woman. She just happens to be black. I would not trade her for a farm in Georgia.


  580. Aaaaaahhhhhhhhh… Oh, Rick, that’s so sweet! She is a lucky woman.


  581. “Azraeyel,he wants to learn about the black culture first.”
    My husband didn’t know diddly squat about black culture when we met. Didn’t make a difference. I actually am glad about that because he didn’t have many preconceptions/prejudices about black people. And I like that he has such pride in his own culture and traditions while at the same time having interest in and respect for mine. That makes our life more interesting and allows our children to have the best of both worlds.

    Ms EnJ:

    Thanks!

    “I wish that there were more accurate representations of us in the media”

    So do I. Although it seems to be getting better. Slowly.


  582. “I myself am a mixed black woman who looks like Stacey Dash..I am tall 5′9 and slim with a butt lol, and have always loved and respected brothers but yet have been asked out repeatedly by guys of other races. I have always heard the same comments that you are skinny, or I am an oreo, or I talk white etc… by brothers! So I have not given up on black men but I have decided to go where I am wanted.”

    What’s wrong with some of these black men? From your description, you are probably very beautiful, but these guys choose to call you names (too skinny, oreo) instead of appreciating you? I agree – it is best to go where you’re wanted!


  583. MsEnJ says,
    I feel like the rest of you, that we are women and regardless of what our complexions, background, or location, we just want someone who can value and love us for being us.

    ramblinrick says,
    Well, I am 51 yrs old and I have dated black women all of my life, and I don’t know that much about black culture. My interest was always in THE woman.

    Black&German,
    My husband didn’t know diddly squat about black culture when we met. Didn’t make a difference. I actually am glad about that because he didn’t have many preconceptions/prejudices about black people. And I like that he has such pride in his own culture and traditions while at the same time having interest in and respect for mine.

    laromana says,
    I strongly agree with the main point MsEnj, ramblinrick, and Black&German have made in their comments. It isn’t NECESSARY for a WM/NON-BM to KNOW EVERYTHING about Black culture BEFORE he decides to pursue a serious dating or marriage relationship with a BW. What IS NECESSARY is that an interested WM/NON-BM have RESPECT for BW/their culture/humanity/dignity/femininity and that he VALUES/LOVES BW as INDIVIDUAL HUMAN BEINGS (just as he would ANY WOMAN of ANY RACE).


  584. Luna,

    Thanks, but I’m the lucky one.


  585. I have a new post that some on this thread might like. It is about how white men approach women and how that affects their getting with black women:

    http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/09/16/why-so-few-white-men-marry-black-women-part-iii/


  586. Black&German:

    “Azraeyel,he wants to learn about the black culture first.”
    My husband didn’t know diddly squat about black culture when we met. Didn’t make a difference. I actually am glad about that because he didn’t have many preconceptions/prejudices about black people.

    I have a question…learning about black culture gives preconcieved notions or prejudices?

    I love my culture and with that comes the bad and the good…..I think loving you is loving all of you.

    Getting to know how someone, us getting to know how someone ticks….

    It doesnt matter what you have in you, if your culture is there; its there.


  587. “I have a question…learning about black culture gives preconceived notions or prejudices? ”

    Not necessarily. But a lot of people who live in America get a skewed version of black culture. The only know the “bad”.


  588. Just the other day, a white women asked me did I think our FLOTHUS was attractive and I answered yes, that I thought she was beautiful. Well, that wasn’t enough for her. She responded by saying that she thought she was ugly and that out POTUS should have chosen someone like me or any woman who she thought was more attractive. I asked her just because of her darker pigmentation, was that the reason she felt she was not attractive? She never said another word. She was subconsciencelly practicing the art of being predujice and had not noticed it.


  589. I am a black woman who is lives in Africa and am can call myself light skinned.I have a girlfriend who is dark skinned and skinny and whenever we are together,WM always look at her and hit on her and not me …sometimes they do hit on me but its on rare occassions.
    I would say am medium built and it surprised me that when I went to Europe I was hit on by most WM I met…I had two men come up to me(different occassions)and they were Americans and both of them found me attractive.One said,am exotic with my full lips and high cheek bones and the other said he found me attrcive because I spoke English so well and was beautiful.He seemed to particularly like my ass(which in my opinion isn’t really small)
    When most WM come to Africa,they usually go for the model slender type with dark skin…I think to them,an African woman should be dark but necessarily with black features!


  590. Rose Blue said:

    Just the other day, a white women asked me did I think our FLOTHUS was attractive and I answered yes, that I thought she was beautiful. Well, that wasn’t enough for her. She responded by saying that she thought she was ugly and that out POTUS should have chosen someone like me or any woman who she thought was more attractive.

    In point of fact, when Barack Obama was growing up ONLY BLACK GIRLS would date him. White girls and Asian girls would not give him the time of day.


  591. A friend back home said he couldn’t believe I voted for a black man. (I could not believe he could vote for 4 more yrs of what we had suffered through for 8 yrs) I told him I voted for the white half.


  592. kitterpuss Says:

    I love my culture and with that comes the bad and the good…..I think loving you is loving all of you.

    Getting to know how someone, us getting to know how someone ticks….

    It doesnt matter what you have in you, if your culture is there; its there.

    kitterpuss,

    I certainly understand your questions. Truthfully, if my wife told me I had to learn about black culture before we married, we would not be married today. It’s about HER. A woman I love that happens to be in black skin. Hell, I know very little about my own culture. It’s all geographical.


  593. I also understand what you are saying…ramblinrick…but my culture is who I am..and if you are marrying her because you don’t see that…Then who is in denial? It is just not her skin you are marring…It is everything that makes up that person..and wether you want to believe it or not …or wether SHE wants to believe it or not…your culture is there…it is the things you do..the things you say…a way of being…and most of the time it is son ingrained..its subconcious……


  594. “I told him I voted for the white half”

    LOL!

    “but my culture is who I am..and if you are marrying her because you don’t see that…”

    My culture is only part of who I am. My husband didn’t marry my culture, he married me. He’s my best friend and I believe we would have clicked even if I’d been white, or Asian, or whatever. I think culture can color your habits or the way you think but it won’t necessarily change your soul or personality. The part that makes you YOU. It’s not as if one BW is interchangeable with another just because they share a culture.

    A friend of mine is Slovakian who married a German guy. He didn’t know anything about her culture, language, music, etc. before marrying her, although he’s since made an effort to find out (and even converted religions!). And, trust me, there’s a LOT bigger difference between Slovakian and German than between black & white Americans.


  595. kitterpuss,

    I agree somewhat, and also disagree to a point. You are making my point. I married HER. I did marry her skin, her culture, and I certainly did not marry the whole black race. We are not so naive to think culture is not important, just with us it is the last thing on the totem pole. Another reason I said what I said, some white guys on here say they must learn black culture to date a black woman. What are they saying? All black women are the same? We know that’s not true. I used to beat up on myself because it seemed like I wasn’t doing enough to change the world. Then I realized, I’m ok, the rest of the world is messed up and I can’t change it. My wife has experienced racism and mistretment by white people first hand. She certainly is notoblivious to it. What’s important, the two of us are together.


  596. That is all I was asking for….a little clarification….sometimes people are not seeing the whole picture…There are some things that are common…but we are different personalities…and different people and there are people out there that think we all are the same…it bugs me because of the ignorance….I just wanted to make sure….thxs…Ram


  597. And if it makes any difference…white or black men do not go for me!…..I wonder if it something in the water?…..LoL!


  598. kitterpuss,

    I suspect that’s not true.


  599. hmm….I don’t know…Maybe I am not drinking enough?…lol!


  600. just kidding…:-)


  601. where in the world is abagond?


  602. I am here, Peanut. What is it?


  603. Black women are not cultural robots but neither are they white women painted brown.


  604. I agree with Black&German… everywhere I’ve been outside of USA, I’ve always attracted men of every race… even in China! I can remember going to Turkey with another friend of mine who is BW and the men were mobbing her, running after her, asking her to dinner, etc… she was so overwhelmed with the attention bcuz back in the USA, she doesn’t get that type of attention. Yes, I think the WM in USA are weird. No offense to WM.


  605. Turkey is an interesting case: “white” Christian Europe has long been its enemy and even now many whites in Europe act like the Turks are something found on the bottom of their shoes. So Turkey is not a huge fan of “whiteness” from what I understand.

    I was in Italy and Turkey last year. The Turks seemed less racist, though admittedly it is hard to tell from a short visit.


  606. abagond Says:
    Turkey is an interesting case: “white” Christian Europe has long been its enemy and even now many whites in Europe act like the Turks are something found on the bottom of their shoes. So Turkey is not a huge fan of “whiteness” from what I understand.

    I was in Italy and Turkey last year. The Turks seemed less racist, though admittedly it is hard to tell from a short visit.

    Turks are a mix of Turco-Mongolian (east asian) and many white peoples (Slavs, Greeks, Arabs etc.)
    What did you think of the women in Turkey? I’ve seen some and they are just…….. wow!!!
    That mix of genes sure didn’t do any harm.

    asset Says:
    I agree with Black&German… everywhere I’ve been outside of USA, I’ve always attracted men of every race… even in China! I can remember going to Turkey with another friend of mine who is BW and the men were mobbing her, running after her, asking her to dinner, etc… she was so overwhelmed with the attention bcuz back in the USA, she doesn’t get that type of attention. Yes, I think the WM in USA are weird. No offense to WM.

    I’m not suprised by that. Turkish men love women period. In fact Turkish women love black men. As I said most American men (of all races) have serious issues when it comes to women and race (and a lot of other things.)


  607. “Yes, I think the WM in USA are weird.”
    Agreed.


  608. asset says:
    I agree with Black&German… everywhere I’ve been outside of USA, I’ve always attracted men of every race… even in China! I can remember going to Turkey with another friend of mine who is BW and the men were mobbing her, running after her, asking her to dinner, etc… she was so overwhelmed with the attention bcuz back in the USA, she doesn’t get that type of attention. Yes, I think the WM in USA are weird. No offense to WM.

    laromana says,
    Black&German and asset,
    Thanks for confirming the FACT that BW are considered ATTRACTIVE/DESIRABLE by MANY NON-AMERICAN men. It is TIRESOME and FRUSTRATING to CONSTANTLY be treated like 2nd CLASS/INVISIBLE women in America, just because you are a BW.


  609. on Thu 24 Sep 2009 at 07:27:18 the storeclerk

    As a Black male living in america and working in a mixed middle/lower class community at Target I love women and love to flirt with them, Our store guest are made up of 65% black, %35% white, and %5 hispanic.

    Throughout my daily flirtations I have observed a few things during my daily work day:

    First of all I notice The white women who come in barely speak and keep they’re heads down when I speak to them and they are usually dressed in sleep-wear..no not sexy lingirie but dirty pajama pants and baggy t-shirts and they’re feet are always dirty and toenals never done and the bottom of they’re feet be crusty, they just be lookin’ bummy, and some of em’ be with brothas..and they look even bummier (real talk!).

    Now the mexican women who come in, they move quickly about the store and get what they gotta get, they appear anti-social but always speak when spoken to (I like that) even if theres a language barrier..everyone understands “hello” and the mexican women will smile and look at you in the eye when they speak then quickly lower they’re heads and go about they’re business.

    Now the black women first and foremost are always dressed better than the aformentioned women, they’re hair is always done and they always speak and most will stop and hold conversations and some even give me they’re cell number (cause I’m smoooove like that). And lord they come in all shapes and sizes, and all the sizes look GOOD on ‘em! each induvidual woman carries herself in her own induvidual way and beleive me baby its some beautiful sights to see up in there (this Target store is on the southside of Chicago by the way) thats why I tell all my friends..if you wanna see some fine black women go to Targets or Wal-marts.

    You hear white folks say all the time how mean black women are..shit not from my perspective, all the black women I meet on a daily basis are more personable than all the other nationalities I’m surrounded by and I live in the heart of the inner city, where supposably everybodys a “gangsta” and a “ho”, man people just dont understand black women thats all, thats why they scared of ‘em.

    Black women are the most nicest, beautiful, wonderfull, life-filled, spiritual, logical, non-thretning, accepting, honest, loving, realistic women I know! And I put that on my mama


  610. Thank you, storeclerk. We don’t hear those things often enough.


  611. Man all you people in here are talking about nothing, whats this black women white guy bull thats why the world is like it is because you guys are making a topic about skin color light are dark, white are whatever your Beautiful because whats inside and whats out not how light or dark are how long, or straight your hair is be happy with yourselfs and there will be no need for this conversation. Us black women are all beautiful every shape of black no matter what some people might put into there own heads of how they think the world works peace.


  612. jadeni,

    We are here talking about the black woman/white guy because we choose to be here discussing it. We have that right, as you do to be here and say whatever it is you want to say. I do not agree the world is the way it is because we are having this discussion. The world was f@#*ed long before this blog was started. Racism was here LONG before any of us were born. Everyone contributing here seems to have a positive attitude, so no matter what we talk about it is a good thing.


  613. What an interesting dialogue… The only overall common denominator I’ve observed is that most WM date BW who are quite slender, if not straight up THIN. (hellooooo gym membership haha) Interestingly enough though, there’s an older WM who seems interested in me- thighs and all (I’m 28). :) How does race and AGE play into this equation? Sorry if this was covered before, I didn’t read all of the above posts… :)


  614. “I notice The white women who come in… they are usually dressed in sleep-wear..no not sexy lingirie but dirty pajama pants and baggy t-shirts and they’re feet are always dirty and toenals never done and the bottom of they’re feet be crusty, they just be lookin’ bummy”

    YES!!!!!

    It’s like that here, too. The colored women (East Indian, black, Hispanic, Asian) are dressed nicely or are at least NEAT whereas it’s rare to see a WW who doesn’t look like she just rolled out of bed. I don’t understand it at all. Some of them have pretty-potential but they insist on looking sloppy.
    Maybe the white guys “holla” at us so much because we’re the only ones that they can easily identify as female. The WW are wearing camouflage.

    Although if a half-way decent WW walks by traffic will literally SLOW DOWN. It’s really funny to watch. Look out, boys! There’s a live one!

    And I live in a upper/middle-class, majority white area. A college town and the students are the worst culprits.


  615. I remember when I was a child women dressed up just to go shopping. You might think they were going to church. If they left the house they were dressed!


  616. No it’s not a good thing the more you feed into the whole (race) think is the more people look at you because of your skin color, there is no race theres just all different shades, sizes, and styles and if you guy by that theres no need for it to be a topic like this.I seen all different shades dress a mess and some real neat so it has nothing to do with your skin color so you all really need to throw that out and find something more important to discuss. Well bye you guys hope you have a good and safe weekend good talking to you:)


  617. “I remember when I was a child women dressed up just to go shopping.”

    Yeah,no kidding. European women still do this.

    It’s not like this all over America, though. In DC and Annapolis pretty much everybody at least looks neat.


  618. on Sat 26 Sep 2009 at 19:34:26 Clayton Abernathy

    are you crazy? i’m a white dude and i LOVE sade. i’d marry her today. i’d go down on her for 3 hours or until i suffocated (whichever came first – unless she “came” first).

    and phylicia rashad, too, i would have totally dated, done, and married (in the ’80s, anyway, when she was still hot).

    i agree with you that most of us white guys don’t dig black girls at all. but your ideas of the few black girls we do dig are WAAAAYYY off.

    sade? man, she is so smokin’. i can’t get over that.


  619. Clayton Abernathy wrote: “i agree with you that most of us white guys don’t dig black girls at all. ”

    Why not? You said ‘us white guys’ so now you get to be the voice of your entire demographic. :)


  620. Right on clt294,

    Clayton Abernathy certainly doesn’t speak for me.


  621. Clayton Abernathy:

    Have you ever seriously dated a black woman, as in she met your mother as your girlfriend?

    This post is not about what most white men like in black women. That turns out to be different than what white men who seriously date black women like, which is the subject of this post.


  622. the storeclerk:

    Wonderful comment. Thank you!


  623. abagond,

    I appreciate your comments to Clayton. A lot of people will judge all white men by those stupid comments. According to Clayton, white guys that like black women, all like the same few black women.

    ding dong ding dong.


  624. Clayton Abernathy says:
    are you crazy? i’m a white dude and i LOVE sade. i’d marry her today. i’d go down on her for 3 hours or until i suffocated (whichever came first – unless she “came” first).

    and phylicia rashad, too, i would have totally dated, done, and married (in the ’80s, anyway, when she was still hot).

    i agree with you that most of us white guys don’t dig black girls at all. but your ideas of the few black girls we do dig are WAAAAYYY off.

    sade? man, she is so smokin’. i can’t get over that.

    laromana says,
    These comments are a good example of the type of WM (ALL BW SHOULD AVOID LIKE A DISEASE) who doesn’t really RESPECT the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY of BW, but rather views them as objects to be used as sexual toilets.


  625. Thank you laromana. My point is, I don’t think these idiots think this way just of black women, it’s all women. Can you just imagine what he must think of his mother?


  626. You’re welcome,ramblinrick.
    It is scary to imagine what this sick dummy thinks of his mother.


  627. I’m a SWM who has been attracted to black females ever since the 5th grade,but didn’t start dating black females until I was in my mid-20’s.For me,I don’t have a specific type of black woman I’m attracted to.The ones I have dated(and the one I was engaged to)were either slim or thick or full-figured.To me,black women carry their weight better than other women of other races,so it doesn’t matter to me.It all depends on the person,too,like if they have a good personality and attitude,which is more important.I can’t pick one black woman that I’m attracted to more than others because there are so many to choose from(different shapes,sizes;etc.).Black women are unique and one of a kind.To me,there is nothing more sexy,more sensual,more stimulating,more erotic and more beautiful than a black woman.I’m not saying women of other races are not attractive,it’s just that black women turn my head around quicker.


  628. I remember a incident that my mother and I went through when she thought that I was dating a wm…..I got dressed to go to a party one evening with some of my friends and everything was fine because I left with my friends…But I did not come home with them. Someone (who happened to be white) dropped me off at home. When she could look out of her window and see who it was, she went into a tirate….she grabbed me and threw me against the wall and put a two prong fork against my neck and told me that she never wanted to see me with a wm ever again…they were not for me…I find that interesting considering she raised me to love everyone….but I must say it did not put me off of exploring what I wanted to. I dated a variety of men and I loved doing it! I always thought of it as having options…lol! But to this day she does not remember the incident…I don’t bring it up and I am still the same loving person I have been since I was five years old…:-)


  629. Jesus christ!

    Did I seriously just read what Gary wrote… and is that seriously supposed to be a compliment?

    When will people some people stop thinking that in order to prove how much they like something, they need to denegrate other things.

    That post reads like a fetish.


  630. Soul,

    I have been waiting for someone to jump on GB’s comment. I guess he thinks he is the only white man that ever said that.


  631. “asset Says:

    Wed 23 Sep 2009 at 03:52:35
    I agree with Black&German… everywhere I’ve been outside of USA, I’ve always attracted men of every race… even in China! I can remember going to Turkey with another friend of mine who is BW and the men were mobbing her, running after her, asking her to dinner, etc… she was so overwhelmed with the attention bcuz back in the USA, she doesn’t get that type of attention. Yes, I think the WM in USA are weird. No offense to WM.”

    In my experience a woman of any colour should not read too much into being chased by the Turks over there. If you are not chased some questions may need to be asked.

    Also, Bria Myles is attractive although I have no idea who she is.


  632. this is crap..heather headleys husband is white man.. what are you a black man trying to put down black women? this whole thing is so stupid just let it go


  633. ‘I’m a SWM who has been attracted to black females ever since the 5th grade,but didn’t start dating black females until I was in my mid-20’s’.

    Why haven’t you married a black women? You talk about what attract you to them (fetishize more like). You have dated them but not married any. Why?


  634. Herneith says:
    ‘I’m a SWM who has been attracted to black females ever since the 5th grade,but didn’t start dating black females until I was in my mid-20’s’.

    Why haven’t you married a black women? You talk about what attract you to them (fetishize more like). You have dated them but not married any. Why?

    laromana says,
    Herneith,
    Your question is excellent. On Siddity’s blog, she’s posted dating site survey results that indicate that BW have the HARDEST time finding men to establish SERIOUS, LONG TERM DATING RELATIONSHIPS that lead to MARRIAGE.

    Personally, I have a life time of NON-BM “finding me attractive” and initiating “CASUAL relationships” with me that NEVER led to MARRIAGE (which is my ultimate goal). What I’ve found is that the NON-BM who have pursued me have allowed ANTI-BW RACISM and/or ANTI-BW COWARDICE to determine whether to establish a COMMITED , PERMANENT relationship with me.
    What really infuriates me about these NON-BM is that they have NO PROBLEM dating/marrying OTHER NON-BW.


  635. Personally, I have a life time of NON-BM “finding me attractive” and initiating “CASUAL relationships” with me that NEVER led to MARRIAGE (which is my ultimate goal).

    Tell you what worked for me (I am going to get so hated on for writing this but here goes):

    You know how Roissy writes about “game”? Well, women need game, too. Men are so jaded about women and so lackadaisical about marriage that they sometimes need some incentive.

    Keep your legs closed. Really. But don’t play the “virgin until death”/”cold fish” routine because that can turn them off. After all, they want to know if the “prize” will be worth the effort. Or, as the Germans say, “Nobody wants to buy a cat in a bag. They all want a peek first.” Your goal is to torture them into desperation with drips and drops of sex.

    Play relatively chaste most of the time and every once in a while (preferably if it’s really late or you’re inebriated — but not drunk! — so that you have an excuse for “slipping up”) let them get ALMOST THERE and then break it off with, “Oh, I just don’t feel right about this.” “I feel like you don’t take me seriously. Is this just about sex for you?” “I worry about being hurt.” You get the picture.

    Men are stupid like that. They know that you’re just fooling with their heads but they can’t help but react by chasing you. And then after a couple of months (in my case it only took weeks) of driving him crazy, give it up and have fantastic sex. All night. If he passes out, wake him up and shag him again.

    The next evening have an abrupt and tearful epiphany complete with confessions of “I wasn’t raised this way. I feel like such a slut — so used. I was trying so hard to be good and last night just ruined everything. It was so wonderful and I love you so much but…” and then announce, “I really feel like this relationship isn’t getting anywhere. I’m not getting any younger. Maybe we should start seeing other people.”

    At this point they will either drop you like a stone in disgust or go shopping for a very large diamond, preferably with a princess cut.

    I am so cynical but I am now in possession of a large shiny rock and a gold band. Worked like a charm. I still treat him like this and he still laps it up and chases me around panting.

    The married version entails wearing sexy — or no — underwear, dressing nicely, and then shooing him away when he tries to touch you. “I’m busy. The kids are looking. I’m so tired today.” Bend over occasionally to pick up microscopic specks of dirt off the floor. Accidentally brush up against him in the kitchen. Press your chest up against him while giving him a totally prudish “Welcome home” kiss.

    And then, at the end of the day when he’s got total blue-balls, shag his brains out. Trust me, he’ll get up the next day and repeat the same thing over again. He’ll never tire of it.

    Men are weird.


  636. Black&German,

    You had me rolling in the floor with your post(647). What’s so funny, it’s true! When I first met my wife our situation wasn’t quiet as you described, but almost. most men are creatures of habit and get comfortable in a routine. We need a little push from time to time. Thanks to her our relationship is anything but boring.


  637. Black&German,
    Usually, I agree with your perspective on various topics but, in this instance, I couldn’t disagree with you more.

    Given the HISTORICALLY NEGATIVE STEREOTYPE that MANY men of ALL RACES have of BW of being “cheap sluts”, the LAST thing I would want to do is confirm that MYTH by playing the tease. Despite the fact that it worked for you (and perhaps in other ISOLATED cases), doesn’t mean this is a good strategy for BW in general.

    If a man (of ANY RACE) feels a BW is “only good for sex and NOT MARRIAGE”, teasing him with the promise of sex isn’t suddenly going to cause him to want to MARRY her.


  638. LOL! You know it is true! I was laughing writing it.

    It’s funny because when I wrote that post I thought: I bet Rick’s wife is the same way. I can always tell because they’re the guys that gush about how wonderful their wives are. My dad’s another one.


  639. laromana,

    I may be wrong here, and B&G let me know if i have this wrong. It’s not like she’s talking about putting the ‘hook’ in a complete stranger.This is the man she wanted to be married to. She knew he wanted to be married to her, but he needed that little push I talked about. I never asked my wife to marry me. She TOLD ME we were getting married. She gave me a month to buy the ring and another month to marry. I bought the rings the next day and we were married the next week. I absolutely love these little ‘games’. Like I said, never boring. Men and women are not the same. A man will spend his whole life scratching his head with one hand and his ass with the other, and he will never figure out a woman. On the other hand, in less than a month a woman will know everything there is to know about a man. Ain’t it great!


  640. ‘Keep your legs closed’

    Or, as my grandmother says; “Keep your legs crossed and you draws up”!


  641. ramblinrick,
    I can understand how the strategy you and Black&German are discussing may work in an ESTABLISHED RELATIONSHIP where the BW ALREADY KNOWS that her man is interested in MARRIAGE but just needs some encouragement.

    The comments I posted had to do with BW looking for (but not finding) men (of ANY RACE) who want to establish SERIOUS DATING relationships with them that could lead to MARRIAGE but are encountering MOSTLY men (of ANY RACE) who are ANTI-BW RACISTS or ANTI-BW COWARDS.


  642. If a man (of ANY RACE) feels a BW is “only good for sex and NOT MARRIAGE”, teasing him with the promise of sex isn’t suddenly going to cause him to want to MARRY her.

    But isn’t that where vetting comes in? Vet, vet, vet. Be brutal about it. Ask things you want to know straight-out. You’re a catch so act like one. If he wants you he has to step up. And don’t sleep with anyone you wouldn’t want to marry!

    This is one of the reasons to hold out for a while. If he’s not really into you he’ll eventually lose interest and start looking elsewhere. And it gives you a chance to take a good look at him before you become too intimate and lose your objectivity.

    Teasing doesn’t help get a man who wouldn’t consider marrying you to propose, but it sort of speeds the whole thing up. The longer you let it drag on (I’ve known couples who have dated for over 10 YEARS and then just sort of drifted apart), the more comfortable he’ll get and the less leverage you’ll have. You’ll get into a rut, the romance will fly, and when you mention marriage he’ll yawn and say, “Oh, but Honey. It’s all so nice the way it is.”

    The goal is to not let your relationship turn into a “long-term one” (you don’t want “serious” you want “permanent”) but rather to get him committed while he’s still in the “starry-eyed, I stay up all night dreaming about that woman and bore all my friends to tears talking about her” phase.

    Rick, EXACTLY! I’d been in too many “serious relationships” (which rarely turn into marriage) and was sick of it. I’d known him casually for years before we started dating.

    After he formally proposed you should have seen how shocked my husband was when I suggested we get married the next spring to give my American relatives time to make plans to attend the wedding. He was all riled up and ready to fly to Vegas that weekend. LOL!

    He’ll tell you all about it except in his version he asks me to get married. He says the “informal” proposal doesn’t really count. LOL!


  643. The comments I posted had to do with BW looking for (but not finding) men (of ANY RACE) who want to establish SERIOUS DATING relationships with them that could lead to MARRIAGE

    Well, if they’re commitment-phobics then I wouldn’t date them anyway. Marrying men DO EXIST but they might be hard to find and they tend not to be as in-your-face. That doesn’t mean I’m going to waste my time with good-time-boys. All of the time and effort spent on good-time-boys is time and effort taken away from the search for a husband. Life’s too short and I’d rather be celibate than be someone’s sex toy. I’d had enough of that crap already.

    I straight-up asked him on the second date if he believed in marriage. His answer took the better part of an hour and included his plans to have 2 or 3 children and travel to New Zealand on his honeymoon. He was in the running and got a 3rd date.


  644. Or, as my grandmother says; “Keep your legs crossed and you draws up”!

    ROFL! Grandma knows what’s up!

    See, we “modern women” go about it all wrong. We give in too easily and then if we’re lucky enough that they marry us anyway we stop having sex with them as soon as we say “I do”. This is completely backwards.

    You’ve got to (as my Oma used to say) “let him chase you until you catch him”. And then, when you catch him and have that gold ring on your finger, turn around and run away again, giggling. He’ll give chase again. In fact, he’ll be so busy chasing you he won’t even notice other women. “Women? What women? Oh, man! My wife’s wearing THAT today…”

    My parents have been doing this dance for over 30 years and it’s still entertaining for them. Although a bit nauseating for everyone else.
    My husband’s coworkers tease him about being “pussy whipped” and running home every evening but he’s too happy to care. And, in truth, they’re just jealous. They stay at work late.


  645. Black&German,
    Not sure where you got the impression that I (or other BW in my position) aren’t “presenting ourselves as great catches”. WE ARE NOT THE PROBLEM. That’s the point I’m making. I also didn’t claim there are NO MEN who want to MARRY BW.

    What I am saying is that when MOST men (of ALL RACES) DECIDE BEFOREHAND that MOST BW are not worth pursuing for SERIOUS RELATIONSHIPS or MARRIAGE, it DOESN’T MATTER what a great person you are or how great your individual qualities are, you will encounter TOUGHER OBSTACLES, when looking for a spouse, than NON-BW who aren’t being PREJUDGED IN a NEGATIVE, RACIST way to begin with.


  646. are not worth pursuing for SERIOUS RELATIONSHIPS or MARRIAGE, it DOESN’T MATTER what a great person you are or how great your individual qualities are, you will encounter TOUGHER OBSTACLES, when looking for a spouse, than NON-BW who aren’t being PREJUDGED IN a NEGATIVE, RACIST way to begin with.


  647. you will encounter TOUGHER OBSTACLES, when looking for a spouse, than NON-BW who aren’t being PREJUDGED IN a NEGATIVE, RACIST way to begin with.

    Yes, of course. I misunderstood your initial point. You know that I know that that is true. And I think we have to be that much more careful in the vetting process because of it.

    Although I think patience is called for sometimes. I knew my husband for years and didn’t even notice him until I’d completely given up on men and just decided to work, travel, and enjoy myself. He was one of those many invisible “nice guys”.

    It wasn’t until I decided that I wasn’t going to waste my time anymore and CHANGED MY GOALS and the QUALITIES I SEEK IN A MAN that I woke up and was like, “Hey, he’s cute. Why didn’t I notice him before?”

    There are a lot of quality men out there looking for wives (they want to get married, imagine that!) but they don’t really get noticed. I used to work with a surprising number of quality men who lived in celibacy, sometimes for YEARS at a time.
    We women seem to insist on fighting over the same 5 jerks. That’s our own special kind of stupidity.

    Women are stupid and we watch/read too much romantic drivel. Forget “the spark”. Forget love at first sight. Truth is, nothing will make you love a man more than having him hold back your hair while you vomit up your morning sickness. Or him getting up at 3 am and hunting down a mosquito whose buzzing had woken you up.

    But enough sappiness for tonight…


  648. That’s a nice way to look at things black&german, but in reality men are not chasing women UNLESS its a NON-BW they are chasing.

    I understand where you’re coming from but my experience has been different. You’re just looking in the wrong place. By that I mean the wrong “social circles” but you could also be in the wrong part of the country.

    Perhaps this would belong in a post about “White men that black women like” but here’s what you’re looking for:

    1.) The complete absence of swagger.. WM call this “game”. Guys with swagger are trying to project an image. That means that they care too much about what other people think. Avoid them like the plague.
    2.) He’s an engineer, systems analyst, lab technician, middle-manager, mechanic, union worker, researcher, graphic designer, college professor, accountant, or something else that involves well-paid drone status. Avoid any man with a glamorous career like lawyer, doctor, marketing, corporate executive, etc. Self-employed men are “iffy” and have to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.
    3.) He’s good-looking but your girlfriends would describe him as “cute” rather than “sexy” or “hot”. He may actually be completely gorgeous but without the swagger nobody notices.
    4.) He doesn’t “date around” and is looking for a serious relationship. He hasn’t been on a date in a while (maybe a long while, maybe even years), not because he “can’t get any” but because he’s picky and the behaviour of most women turns him off. He’s usually too reserved/shy to ask women out.
    5.) He’s attracted to your intelligence and personality and spends hours talking to you.
    6.) He’s into computers and/or computer games. He likes to read/watch non-fiction and science fiction. Trekkies and guys into Japanimation are a good bet.
    7.) He’s a bit socially awkward. He’s not very good at hiding his emotions and his face is pretty much an open book. He doesn’t brag and his rare compliments are spontaneous and almost involuntary, but sincere.
    8.) He has a geeky hobby like programming robots or remodeling old cars. He has circuit boards on his desk at home.
    9.) He believes in God but isn’t very religious. He’ll attend church with you but probably won’t go regularly on his own.
    10.) He is highly intelligent. The higher his intelligence the better.

    Basically, he’s one of those guys you passed over in high school because he wasn’t cool enough.

    Of course they don’t chase INITIALLY (these are the more reserved men, the “betas”). You have to take the first (and sometimes the second and, frustratingly, the third) step. Once you have their complete and utter attention the chase begins. Some of these guys are s…l…o…w to catch on, though.


  649. This has post potential.

    Is this the kind of white man that black women go for? Or is it the kind of white man that would go for a black woman?

    It sounds more like Peter Norton or George Lucas, say, than Matthew McConahey or Robin Thicke.

    Also sounds like the kind who are stereotyped as having an Asian fetish.


  650. Is this the kind of white man that black women go for? Or is it the kind of white man that would go for a black woman?

    It’s the kind of WM that would go for a BW.

    Peter Norton is a good example. Strangely, Robin Thicke is as well. Remember he started dating her in high school and appears to be as infatuated and loyal as a German shepherd. For someone so famous he’s also introverted and he seems to do whatever he wants and doesn’t give a darn what others think. My boyfriend in high school was a lot like him. Good looking, a bit shy, talented artistically and musically, intellectually independent.

    Also sounds like the kind who are stereotyped as having an Asian fetish.

    I’ve got to say that I’m skeptical about the whole “Asian fetish” thing. In my experience, Asian women are marrying these guys because THESE ARE THE GUYS THEY LIKE. They really are smarter than us. ;-p And these are the guys most open to interracial marriage in general, in my experience.
    And, you know how WM/AW marriages are the most stable and WM/BW are the runner up? I’m thinking it’s because they tend to be these kinds of men who make the best husbands. That’s my theory, anyway.

    Matthew McConahey has “alpha male” written all over him. I’d take a pass. You notice he didn’t marry his baby mamma.

    And don’t underestimate the importance of
    10.) He is highly intelligent. The higher his intelligence the better.
    Some of these guys are at the IQ>125 end of the spectrum (although their scores tend to be skewed toward the nonverbal end which is probably one of their problems in developing “game”).
    They have enough difficulty finding a woman in that group that they’re less likely to be picky about superficial things. As long as she’s interesting, intelligent, healthy, and pretty she’s probably in the running. You can only afford to be picky about things like race, ethnicity, nationality, hair color, etc. if you’re shopping in the lower 90%.

    Think about it, an IQ of 125 or higher would reduce you to about 10% of the population. And from that group you want someone pretty, interesting, charming, and fertile. That gets you down to about 7% of that group (you have the benefit that positive traits cluster so the women in this group are more likely to be otherwise attractive). Now, do you think you can afford to toss out all of the blacks, asians, latinas, native americans, etc.? Hell no! She’s in that group then she makes the cut.

    Now she just has to go find that man and dig him out from behind his computer. LOL!


  651. Black & German:

    I am going to make your last two comments into a post, if that is all right with you.


  652. Sure. Do you mind me monopolizing your blog? LOL! Maybe I should start my own and give you a break.


  653. I do not mind at all: There is no way I would be able to write a post like that on my own and it certainly goes along with this one, which now has 667 comments!


  654. which now has 667 comments
    Half of them from me. LOL!

    Anyway, I have to go clean up. I gave my kids play dough to keep them busy while I write and it looks like a clay pot exploded in my dining room now. Caio!


  655. @Black&German:
    You are one smart, wise woman! I so wish someone would have shown me your list (post #662) and explained it to me 20 years ago.

    It’s great that many Black women understand that they’re a catch. However, many of us (not all, but many) grow up in households where it’s ingrained in us directly from our families that we have little worth and value because of our race (sounds like you didn’t have that problem!) That message is then compounded outside our homes. Until realizing that and dealing with that, our standards and expectations can be, not surprisingly, pretty low, and we can radiate a pretty negative vibe without even realizing it.


  656. However, many of us (not all, but many) grow up in households where it’s ingrained in us directly from our families that we have little worth and value because of our race (sounds like you didn’t have that problem!)

    Actually, no. I have the inverse problem. No man I date — no man on the planet — is good enough. My parents would find fault in Jesus: “Oh, I don’t know about that long hair. Makes him look a bit wild, don’t you think?” “His father’s a carpenter? Well.. that’s nice. It’s so… quaint.” “Born in a manger? What sort of poor breeding does that imply?”
    LOL!


  657. on Wed 7 Oct 2009 at 17:07:08 mynameismyname

    B&G,

    Damn, woman! You are on the money with your list in post #662. Wow, I’m dumbfounded. It’s like you were describing my personality to a tee. With the exceptions of #6 and #8, I perfectly fit the criteria of each other trait.

    The only problem is that I’m not white! LOL.


  658. Hey Black&German

    I think your comments works well for any women who are trying to get be the catch lol However, laromana comments stands truth that it can be very risky for Black women to follow your advice because of the stereotypes of Black women especially the jezebel type. I know your comment is based off women showing a little sexual interest without being slutty and not also being a virgin mary lol. However, Black women attempting this can be very risky because even if a Black woman on her behalf is not being a total slut or a virgin mary and shows a little sexual interest, that man with his stereotypical view of Black women would take her approach as being a freak and not marriage material. Then the problems with Black women dating starts all over again lol. So I appreciate your advice because I think it’s helpful to some women but Black women it might work for some but it is sorta problematic.


  659. He, he. I have a knack for that, it seems.

    All of the non-white guys I dated also fit this list. It also describes my (black) father to a tee. And that sexy Filipino guy? A network engineer who I met through friends because we were all really big on medieval fighting (which is like the most ultimate geeky hobby ever). Everyone had a persona and his was a Japanese samurai. He had the weapons and costumes and everything. My ex-boyfriend used to fight him (with real swords, no less) and it was just really cool.

    These are precisely the guys that BW are NOT DATING. Which is why they complain about the lack of quality men. There’s no lack of quality men, they’re just out playing samurai on the weekend. *roll eyes*. They exist you just have to go dig one up. LOL!

    I think #6 fits to you as you spend some of your spare time on here discussing mundane socio-economic topics. LOL!

    Aaaagh! I’ve got to go again. There’s milk EVERYWHERE. I think she’s getting pissed off and it’s playground time. Til later!


  660. on Wed 7 Oct 2009 at 17:42:24 mynameismyname

    LOL, B&G.

    You’re right on. Well, I do read non-fiction but I’m bored to tears by sci-fi. So, I guess I halfway fit #6.


  661. Black&German says,
    These are precisely the guys that BW are NOT DATING. Which is why they complain about the lack of quality men. There’s no lack of quality men, they’re just out playing samurai on the weekend. *roll eyes*. They exist you just have to go dig one up. LOL!

    laromana says,
    I (and other BW like me) are attracted to INTELLIGENT, QUALITY NON-BM like the ones you described so your generalization that “these are precisely the type of guys BW are not dating” is FALSE.

    Again, you seem to be discounting the FACT that in America, ACROSS THE SPECTRUM OF NON-BM who COULD DATE BW, MOST DON’T because they are either ANTI-BW RACISTS OR ANTI-BW COWARDS. THIS is what needs to CHANGE. Once ANTI-BW RACISM/ANTI-BW COWARDICE on the part of NON-BM in America towards MOST BW ENDS, then BW’s efforts to find QUALITY men of ANY RACE to SERIOUSLY DATE and MARRY them will be MORE SUCCESSFUL (as is the case with MOST NON-BW).


  662. @Black&German. You are awesome, although I disagree with you on post #647. Phony breakups and prudishness are not the way to go about “catching” a man. Waiting ~20 dates (instead of the conventional 3; who came up with that shit?) is a great idea, but it shouldn’t be a game, nor should it be as scripted-out and manipulative as you make it sound. Emphasizing quality over quantity in sex life: same principle. You should do it because it makes both of you happy, but not to “game” him into submission.

    Your list of 10 qualities in your ideal man is great. I think most of those apply for men seeking women as well. I’d take issue with #2 a little bit. Don’t rule guys out with “glamorous” careers, but don’t make a big deal out of it either. I know a girl who dated a $300k/year doctor and now only dates doctors. You don’t want to be seen as her, but you shouldn’t rule out all the doctors and lawyers.

    On #9, I’d say that spirituality is a positive, but religious rigidity and intolerance are strong negatives. From my (WM) perspective, a woman of faith is ideal, but one who believes that billions of people are roasting in hell for not believing in Christ I would not date.

    I’m in technology, and I’ve noticed that a large proportion of the best programmers I know are in interracial relationships. I think you’re right that men in the high-IQ set tend to be very open to IR, for the reason given. We are so selective on intelligence and character that slapping unnecessary racial criteria on our dating situation is something we can’t afford. I could realistically be a lifelong single just because women who meet my standards are extremely rare. I’m willing to assume that risk, rather than settling, but I take it seriously. So putting silly racial criteria on a marriage partner makes no sense, from that perspective.

    I wrote about this here. I think most WM who date IR/internationally are doing so because it’s easier to find a quality woman. For example, I don’t know enough to compare racial averages between black vs. white, but averages are meaningless.

    Here’s why: marriage material requires that a person excel in a number of variables– intelligence, physical attraction, integrity, spiritual compatibility, curiosity, culture. It would be a statistical disaster if the variables were independent– passable women would be extremely rare. Fortunately, they’re not; these variables are positively correlated. At least at the top, black women’s traits tend to be more strongly correlated (if she’s smart and attractive, she probably also has good values and is cultured) than whites are. The result is that there are a lot more straight-A black women (and it’s only the straight-A women who matter from a marriage perspective) than whites.


  663. Black & German:

    The post based on 622 and 624 is up:

    http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/10/07/white-men-that-like-black-women/

    If you have corrections, please email me.

    Thanks!


  664. ‘See, we “modern women” go about it all wrong. We give in too easily and then if we’re lucky enough that they marry us anyway we stop having sex with them as soon as we say “I do”. This is completely backwards’.

    What’s the biggest killer of a woman’s sex drive? Wedding cake! Seriously, many men use double standards when choosing a mate. Not for them the loose woman! A lot of them want women who are ‘unsullied’ (good luck in this day and age). If they can’t get a women with this attribute, then a woman with only little experience will do. The ‘loose’ women are for humping and dumping. Never mind that the man himself could be or is, wildly promiscuous. They do-not want a woman with a ‘vast’ history mothering their children for example.

    With such racist stereotypes against black women in regards to their perceived sexuality, this may be a factor as to why most white men do-not marry black women. If you don’t fit into this stereotype, you are an exception. The exceptions as it turns out is the rule not these ‘loose’ women stereotypes they think they are!

    Add to the equation that most want white children, possible family opposition, societal opposition, history etc, the average white man doesn’t have the testicular fortitude to cross those lines. Yes, some may fetishize and fantasize about black women, some may even date them and have intimate relationships with them, but marry and have children? No. White men who do so are relatively rare. I’ve seen this time and again. Too many black women talk or write about their own experiences to treat this topic as purely anecdotal.

    This for the most part has everything to do with racism as they are imputing negative modes of behaviour to black women as other comments illustrate.

    With that being said, I consider myself fortunate, as I have, for the most part, not really been that attracted to white men as a whole. I have never cared a whit as to whether or not they wanted to date or have some sort of relationship with me (I’ve had many approach me), however, to each his own. Sure I’ve seen the odd one who I did a double take on, but that was just in passing on the street..

    I don’t like the racist aspect of the dynamics however, which appears to be inherent with many white men in relations to their perceptions of black women whether they wish to date, marry or whatever. If all things were equal, and it was just a matter of ‘preferences’, the disparities would not be there, your choices would be endless! They (choices) are not.

    At this point in time, the level playing field is anything but. As for lowering their expectations, another stereotype? Perhaps many are holding out for a suitable mate, hence these complaints and observations. Could it be they aren’t being approached? This racist dynamic seems to be prevalent in American society and to a lesser degree in Canada where I am from.


  665. Herneith,
    Thanks so much for clarifying the main points I’ve been attempting to make in my posts on this topic.

    There are MANY QUALITY BW who desire to be pursued for SERIOUS DATING relationships and MARRIAGE by QUALITY MEN of ANY RACE but, in America, MOST men of ALL RACES, INTELLIGENCE LEVELS, PERSONALITY TYPES, OCCUPATIONS, AGES, etc. are NOT CHOOSING BW BECAUSE THEY ARE either ANTI-BW RACISTS or ANTI-BW COWARDS.

    REAL LIFE bears this out time and time again and THIS is what needs to CHANGE before BW have the SAME SUCCESS in relationships that MOST NON-BW have.


  666. Good posts! And I’m always happy when they are long ones since it makes my overly-verbose-self feel like less of a freak.

    Cless:

    I disagree with you on post #647. Phony breakups and prudishness are not the way to go about “catching” a man.

    I knew you would say that! I’m a bit of a drama queen. But all’s fair and all that…

    Don’t rule guys out with “glamorous” careers, but don’t make a big deal out of it either.

    I’d rule them out for the simple reason that these types of careers are rarely compatible with happily married life. Although I have to admit that, as a recovering Army brat, I’m a sucker for a man in uniform.

    At least at the top, black women’s traits tend to be more strongly correlated (if she’s smart and attractive, she probably also has good values and is cultured) than whites are.

    You know that I agree, of course.

    Herneith:

    (Just asked my hubby.) I don’t know about American men but German men expect their women to be “experienced” but not “sluttish” (as in, engaging in casual sex). They would be a bit intimidated by a virgin after the age of 20.

    I avoid chronically promiscuous men and women like the plague. They are damaged beyond repair.

    Yes, some may fetishize and fantasize about black women, some may even date them and have intimate relationships with them, but marry and have children? No. White men who do so are relatively rare.

    They ARE rare. I agree. But they are rapidly becoming less so, I think. I’m waiting for the next Census. It should be interesting.

    As for lowering their expectations, another stereotype? Perhaps many are holding out for a suitable mate, hence these complaints and observations. Could it be they aren’t being approached?

    It definitely could be! So they have to approach.


  667. laromana:

    I’m just curious as to why men who aren’t attracted or won’t date a black woman are labeled as a racist or an anti-black woman coward.

    Does this apply to every single man who has no interest whatsoever? As if they are supposed to like black women?

    I’m just trying to understand what you mean when you say this.


  668. maximus is azrazyel right?


  669. @Herneith

    Seriously, many men use double standards when choosing a mate. Not for them the loose woman! A lot of them want women who are ‘unsullied’(good luck in this day and age). If they can’t get a women with this attribute, then a woman with only little experience will do. The ‘loose’ women are for humping and dumping. Never mind that the man himself could be or is, wildly promiscuous. They do-not want a woman with a ‘vast’ history mothering their children for example. With such racist stereotypes against black women in regards to their perceived sexuality, this may be a factor as to why most white men do-not marry black women.

    I’m at least 2 standard deviations to the left in terms of slut-intolerance. I would never marry a woman who’s had a one-night-stand, and I’m pretty hardcore MRA.

    I also really like black women. My experience is that, middle-class and above, educated black women are less slutty and much more likely to be marriage material. It doesn’t hurt that they’re physically gorgeous.

    @laromana: I think most white men would date and marry a black woman. Not only that, but after dating a few, we usually emerge with a strong preference for black girls. :) However, Black&German is correct that you’ll often have to be the pursuer.

    Black girls are great because they’re fully American, but the middle-class black culture tends to inculcate really good values as well, which can’t be said of suburban white culture.


  670. Yes peanut.


  671. “I think most white men would date and marry a black woman.”

    I respectfully disagree. Who is the “most”. “Most” as in who you know, or “most” as in the keyword “think”?

    If that was true, it would be much more common.

    JMHO


  672. @Maximus: I think very few white guys approach black women, and very few women of any race make approaches.

    I think a lot of men who are completely open to dating and marrying black women are still unlikely, for a variety of reasons, to approach them. Approaching a person you don’t know is already very awkward, and the interracial element probably puts it over the top for many white guys who would still readily date a black woman.


  673. Cless Alevin,

    I agree. What I have witnessed, a lot of white guys think they must have a ‘special approach’ to black women. They make it hard for themselves. Then there’s always, “what will my friends think?”


  674. Cless:

    I agree with your points about some white males being “gunshy” about approaching a black woman. Especially if he already thinks “yea, they probably don’t dig us anyway” or like you said “what will the friends/family think?” That interracial element can most definitely play a significant role in determining “if” or “when” they might approach.

    Many and many more reasons can be noted here as well.

    I believe many make it to be much more complex than it actually is.

    Kinda like seeing an illusion one way, when “unknown” reality of it casts it another.

    Nice blog you have going by the way.


  675. @ramblinrick: My friends (and parents) know that I like black women, so I’ve never worried about that, but I understand that it could be a source of awkwardness for some guys.


  676. Cless,

    I am married to a black woman. Questions I have been asked by some white men are just ridiculous. Is it really pink, the really stupid stuff. I do white guys that would date black women, but they are afraid to approach them. They don’t want to say the ‘wrong thing’


  677. ramblinrick, are they afraid we might put a voodoo curse on them or something?


  678. Peanut,

    I don’t know.Some white guys with good intentions seem to waste a lot of time trying to convince the lady they are not a racist. I’m not sure who they are trying to convince, the lady or themselves. Years ago a friend was really interested in this black woman. I thought he was hopeless. Actually she made the first move, and the second. (like B&G talked about) They have been married almost thirty years and eight children. I guess that voodoo curse must have been a doozy.


  679. Hmmm…
    New York seems to be alot more racist than the south at times…


  680. I do agree than White men do seemed to be more attracted to a certain type of black woman, as far as marriage etc…and not just “dating” or “casual”…


  681. am so happy to learn all these stuff. am a dark skinned woman from Kenya 5’7, average body and I’ve always wanted to date white guys but i thought they did not like my dark skin. Now that i know the truth, am going for it. thx guys 4 ur insight.


  682. Cless Alvein says:
    It would also be a better world if the beta males (many of whom love black women) would man up and make first moves more often.

    Cless,
    Thanks for making this point. I(other BW like me) have ALWAYS been ASSERTIVE/CLEAR about our interest in being in SERIOUS relationships with WM/NON-BM but have CONTINUOUSLY had MOST American WM/NON-BM (who claim to love BW) either REFUSE to APPROACH/INITIATE relationships with us or CHOOSE NOT to proceed to a more SERIOUS/PERMANENT relationship with us MAINLY due to either ANTI-BW RACISM, ANTI-BW COWARDICE or a combination of both.


  683. People of both sexes can be assertive, and that’s the best way, actually. In general, it would be a better world if women (of all races) were more assertive when it comes to relationships. Assertive women tend to do best, in my observation. It would also be a better world if the beta males (many of whom love black women) would man up and make first moves more often.

    Amen.

    And it wasn’t that the guys weren’t showing obvious interest in me, just that they sometimes needed a little push to ask me out. Some of these guys have spent so much time waiting and looking that they completely forget how to pursue. You have to sort of give them a little shake sometimes.

    Mention that you’re having a moving-house party and could use another strong man to help you out (strangely, the idea that there are OTHER STRONG MEN helping you out will make him more likely to agree). If you see him reading a book you’ve read at the library, offer him your review of it and ask him if he’s read any other of the author’s work. Ask his opinion about the art you’re looking at in a museum or which food tastes best at the bistro (this one works GREAT because men love to have you ask their opinion).
    Just be careful who you chat up as it’s difficult to get rid of these guys once you’ve approached them. They’re like leeches that way and you might end up having to listen to their tedious voice for the entire lunch before you can politely shake them off and make an exit.

    Okay, I’ll admit it. I’m a bit of a man-eater. But this stuff works like a charm. I’ve had men turn me down but usually because they have a girlfriend. And if they said no I just shrugged and went about my way. It’s not going to kill me to be rejected by some guy in a bookstore.

    As for proposing marriage, I’m sure he would have asked me eventually. But “eventually” wasn’t good enough. I wanted to be married young, have children young, and then go back to my career. I didn’t want to just “shack up” for years and hope that he’d eventually get around to asking. Or do what some of the married women I know have done: shack up and then get pregnant to spur him on. I figure straight-out asking is a better method.

    Although, I have to admit that my German blood probably plays a role. We’re all pretty assertive. We’d have to be or die virgins. Just call me Helga.

    CONTINUOUSLY had MOST American WM/NON-BM (who claim to love BW) either REFUSE to APPROACH/INITIATE relationships with us or CHOOSE NOT to proceed to a more SERIOUS/PERMANENT relationship with us MAINLY due to either ANTI-BW RACISM, ANTI-BW COWARDICE or a combination of both

    But sometimes, you know, they just don’t want you. It even, horror of horrors, happened to me. Repeatedly. Even guys I dated for years would dump me for somebody else. It’s not always racism or cowardliness. That’s why you should keep your legs closed. It keeps the “here due to inertia” types away.

    And, really, if they are not in love with you and don’t want to marry you, you should be thanking them for not wasting your time and just move on. There are plenty more fish in the sea. Any minute you spend grieving over these guys is wasted time. And any bitterness you harbor afterward reduces your attractiveness.


  684. ramblinrick says: “I don’t know.Some white guys with good intentions seem to waste a lot of time trying to convince the lady they are not a racist.”

    I’m sorry its kinda funny that some wm are more afraid of bw than bw seem to be of wm…lmao. Historically its been the complete opposite, we’re the ones who should be afraid…lmao!!!


  685. lol… cause i’m gonna whip something like this out on my first date with a white guy… http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/584.html
    yep, that’s the speech i’m going to make upon my first meeting lol!!


  686. Black&German,
    CONTINUOUSLY had MOST American WM/NON-BM (who claim to love BW) either REFUSE to APPROACH/INITIATE relationships with us or CHOOSE NOT to proceed to a more SERIOUS/PERMANENT relationship with us MAINLY due to either ANTI-BW RACISM, ANTI-BW COWARDICE or a combination of both

    But sometimes, you know, they just don’t want you. It even, horror of horrors, happened to me. Repeatedly. Even guys I dated for years would dump me for somebody else. It’s not always racism or cowardliness. That’s why you should keep your legs closed. It keeps the “here due to inertia” types away.

    And, really, if they are not in love with you and don’t want to marry you, you should be thanking them for not wasting your time and just move on. There are plenty more fish in the sea. Any minute you spend grieving over these guys is wasted time. And any bitterness you harbor afterward reduces your attractiveness.

    laromana says,
    You’ve TOTALLY MISSED the POINT of what I’m saying. I have NEVER been the type of women who “gives it up” to men in order to gain their acceptance. I’ve definitely adhered to the “keep your legs closed” maxim in my relationship approach. This is a NON-ISSUE for me.

    Also, when I mention ANTI-BW RACISM or ANTI-BW COWARDICE as the reason for why my IRR’s with American WM/NON-BW didn’t work, it is because this was THE SOLE REASON these men ended our relationship NOT because of something “I DID WRONG”.

    There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG (“bitter or unattractive” as YOU seem to imply)with NOT wanting to constantly be subjected to ANTI-BW RACISM or ANTI-BW COWARDICE in my IRR’S. It’s RIDICULOUS to conclude that “BW are somehow to blame” when MOST WM/NON-BM in America treat them in a RACIST, ANTI-BW manner.

    Your comments seem to give the impression that since you may not have experienced ANTI-BW RACISM or ANTI-BW COWARDICE in YOUR IRR’S, it gives you the right to be DISMISSIVE of my experiences (and similar ones of other BW like me).

    There is more than enough evidence in American culture, media, society to support the FACT that ANTI-BW RACISM and ANTI-BW COWARDICE exist and are affecting the way MOST WM/NON-BM in America treat their relationships with BW.


  687. I have an honest question.

    Are you people interested in white men?

    Or you just let it be known publicly that you hate them?

    I mean some people say some white men have a fetish for black women…..(roll eyes)

    I understand the need to vent. But considering this is an interracial categorical type of blog, I don’t see why else black women are here.

    Either you are interested, or it’s just a hate blog.

    If some in here hate white men so much, why are you wasting your time putting emphasis and energy into this?

    The topic is supposed to be “Black women that white men like”…not “Black women who show complete and utter hatred towards white men.”

    I mean, some of you (keyword some) wonder why white men don’t want you. Look at you, constantly complaining and seeking to find every wrong there is instead of staying on topic.

    Then the nerve to bash every white man that comes in here.

    Then wondering why they don’t date (some) of you.

    Good luck finding your mate!


  688. Thanks Uncle Milton.

    I already knew a few have/are dating/married to white men/man.

    Some people called me a racist before and asked how I can be friends with a black woman.

    I have admitted my faults.

    But, some others I would never think a white man would want them….kinda like in reverse in (their) perception of me befriending a black woman. (roll eyes)

    I made sure to put (some) and not all black women in here on my previous post.


  689. @Cless Alvein

    Let me clarify what I said. Many men have double standards when it comes to women’s sexuality. Some men can be wildly promiscuous. They don’t necessarily reveal this to a woman at the onset of a relationship, if in fact they ever do. However they look for the opposite in a woman and disdain any woman perceived as promiscuous. Yes, there probably is something ‘broken’ in the psyche of promiscuous people. Promiscuous people come in every stripe. No-one in their right mind would choose to knowingly marry or even engage in a relationship with promiscuous people, at least most wouldn’t . Besides people who engage in promiscuity, may have other issues that would make such relationships doubly toxic. I am saying that most men want a women who doesn’t have a vast history of sex partners not a totally inexperienced one. With that being said, what a man considers as promiscuous may vary from man to man. It may also depend on what their religous or cultural background is.

    This is where racist stereotypes come in. If black women are perceived as being promiscuous as a group, many white men will give them a pass based upon these stereotypes.. Black women also have to contend with concepts of eurocentric beauty, Jezebel stereotypes, Sapphire stereotypes, ghetto ad nauseum etc. etc.. Most white men are socialized to think that white women are the epitome of beauty and the ideal woman. It doesn’t matter if these stereotypes are bogus, they are rampant. Sure the odd white man finds black women to be beautiful, erotic, exotic, intelligent and so forth. Plus, most want white children, they don’t want ambiguously white children either and they do care what society says. Hence, when many white men say they are not attracted to black woman they are telling the truth as this is how they have been socialized. My bone of contention derives from the racist aspects of these stereotypes against black women, and the subsequent negative effects on them. This is irregardless of whether or not they are attracted to white men, or would marry one if given the opportunity. If everything was fair and the playing field level, these stereotypes would never enter into the equations as to the whys and whereto fores. A preference would be just a preference, people wouldn’t question why this person is marrying that person and affix stereotypes to a whole group of women. This isn’t so currently. There is a reason that white men are the least likely to marry black women as compared to other racialized women. Why? Racist ideation whether conscious or unconscious and other factors play a role. It is a obviously complex.


  690. Maximus,

    This is a site for black women white men like. I think most black women here are datingg/married to a white man, or just curious. If not, they still have a right to be here as we do or anyone else. From my personal experience, I can say without a doubt. Black women are not complainers, whiners, and they do not snivel. They are VERY strong willed and will step up to the plate and take care of business. If they want to vent here, God knows they have that right. They can slam white men all they want, if it does not apply to me I don’t let it bother me. Black women are good women. If treated with proper respect, they are very loyal. I am speaking only of things I know to be true.


  691. To Maximus:

    I made sure to put (some) and not all black women in here on my previous post.

    Yes you did, but the first and second sentences were:

    “I have an honest question. Are you people interested in white men?”

    Which sets the tone of your post. (And is about as far as some people will read…)

    “But, some others I would never think a white man would want them….”

    As I said, I think a number of women are venting..and would probably act different on a date.. and some aren’t interested in white men at all.

    I think you are taking some of the comments personally… which I can understand… but if you are dating or are interested in dating black women and you are getting such an emotional reaction you might want to check lay off this site and check out other blogs by black people that are more mellow. I like this one:

    http://undercoverblackman.blogspot.com/

    This is David Mill’s blog. (he’s a write for the TV show The Wire..)
    You could also read a few classic and current sociological books by black authors.


  692. awww ramblinrick you’re so nice


  693. Rick & Milton:

    I really appreciate your guys help.

    I was just trying to understand others better in here and try (not) to hastily judge.

    I keep coming back because I am interested in others experiences so I can better myself (my own faults) as well as understanding others points of view.

    Thanks again. (:


  694. i don’t hate white men, i just think its silly for some wm to be so afraid of bw they don’t even give bw a chance. what’s the worst that can happen? she says no. shes’ not going to put a voodoo curse on you or beat u up, you’re probably stronger physically…so why be afraid. I think some wm are adorable and for the record, I have had some relationship/friendships with white males that have been great so dont’ get it twisted, i like any man who is nice to me, i just think that more wm need to open up and realize bw are women first and foremost and to be fearful of us is insulting to our femininity. we want to be desired and pursued and protected just like any other women


  695. Peanut:

    I’m sorry of the circumstances that you have/will or are facing. It is a major blow to black women.

    The (white) media helps degrade and insult black (people) women in general. A lot of wm see MTV/VH1 etc. with (c)rap videos and say “oh, so that’s how it is?” It is a negative image that white guys see and don’t take the time to actually learn the (hidden) truth that is driven by white folks.

    Too many of us judge accordingly by the media without getting to know black people individually. It is ignorance by white men (I am guilty as well) to use every degrading term in the book against blacks. It is truly shameful and I can admit I despise myself for saying and thinking things before.

    I could write more about this but not up to it right now.

    The true reason I keep coming back here after all that was said and done (by me, to others) is a want to understand people better to which can help better me as well in the same process. I feel sincerity towards others and I enjoy learning and possibly helping out any way I can.

    Sometimes my true character is hidden by my outbursts and rages. My character (online) is a false parallel of me in (real) life. I feel I can become a better person and I am willing to better myself in understanding others.

    Regardless of some people’s doubts, I am truly passionate about black women. None of the things I say here reflects me in real life. I’m not trying to prove anything to anyone here,(In reference to this post) I know what I say and say what I mean. If it’s taken with a grain of salt, so be it. (Understood)

    I said when I first posted here that black women are most beautiful and gorgeous race of women. I stand by that indefinitely!

    Nothing truly better than a strong willed, driven, focused, determined & passionate black woman!

    They have had to endure so much for so long and it deeply saddens me of their shortcomings and ignorant people who cast every negative push against black women.

    You are right. Black women are women and deserve much better and need to be loved, respected, cared for, desired, hugged, kissed, praised, told they are beautiful, told they are appreciated, told they are treasured, told they are loved and treated like so.

    THIS is the true side of me. THIS is me in (real) life. Like I said, you can take this with a grain of salt to which I completely understand. I reflect this character of a true image of me.

    May God bless & Peace.


  696. its just being afraid of bw makes me think that some wm still have the old sapphire stereotyped ingrained in them. like they’er afraid we’re gonna be neck twirling, finger snapping, telling them off blah blah blah that’s all


  697. that was nice maximus, very nice


  698. and it doesn’t help that the media makes bw out to be ugly naturally. atleast when i was little and i grew up we had stuff like this to look at on tv

    what a beautiful showcase of real, naturla and talented bw. Could you imagine them playing something like this now? We had toni braxton, salt n pepa, i know i’m only in my early twenties, but even i see a difference between perception of bw in the media now and then…


  699. I stil remember dancing around to i’m every woman and doing cartwheels on our carpet and just loving the song, now all little black girls get to see is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmSZJ17ppEQ
    and that’s all little white boys see too. I mean if I was a little black girl growing up now, my mind would be even more screwed up than it is. I could look at stuff like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhPQx0zR0Ms little things like that make a big difference. I was looking at hip hop videos from the early 90s/ late 80s (back when rap actually made sense) and i was shocked because the women in the videos i actually saw attractive black women who looked like me and te women i see on a regular basis. you know nowadays the chocolate bw is never the love interest, you never get to see that. we’re made out to be masculine and domineering and ugly and its just unfortunate



  700. i bet no one thinks of bw this way,looks how delicate and feminine they are…but no one wants to see bw that way


  701. sorry for the rant, but i just get tired of people not seeing black women as real women. we need to be loved and cherished and protected too, why do we have to do every darn thing on our own, you’re te man you’re supposed to protect the woman…


  702. I agree peanut.

    I’m sorry.

    I will comment tomorrow. Have to work in the morning and was letting you know I (heard) read what you said.

    Have a good day.


  703. dag..we had TLC when I was little, compared to now we were on easy street in terms of perceptions of bw


  704. Peanut,

    I checked out the link on post 724. WOW! does that bringback memories. Thanks


  705. peanut says:
    i don’t hate white men, i just think its silly for some wm to be so afraid of bw they don’t even give bw a chance. what’s the worst that can happen? she says no. shes’ not going to put a voodoo curse on you or beat u up, you’re probably stronger physically…so why be afraid. I think some wm are adorable and for the record, I have had some relationship/friendships with white males that have been great so dont’ get it twisted, i like any man who is nice to me, i just think that more wm need to open up and realize bw are women first and foremost and to be fearful of us is insulting to our femininity. we want to be desired and pursued and protected just like any other women

    laromana says,
    Thanks, peanut. This is exactly how I feel. BW just want to be pursued, loved, cherished, protected, and respected by men of ANY RACE like NON-BW are.

    This is not too much to ask.


  706. ramblinrick says,
    This is a site for black women white men like. I think most black women here are datingg/married to a white man, or just curious. If not, they still have a right to be here as we do or anyone else. From my personal experience, I can say without a doubt. Black women are not complainers, whiners, and they do not snivel. They are VERY strong willed and will step up to the plate and take care of business. If they want to vent here, God knows they have that right. They can slam white men all they want, if it does not apply to me I don’t let it bother me. Black women are good women. If treated with proper respect, they are very loyal. I am speaking only of things I know to be true.

    laromana says,
    ramblinrick thanks for your very understanding, supportive, caring comments regarding BW. I’m very encouraged by what you’ve said. It’s clear that you truly know the TRUTH about BW and understand who we REALLY are.


  707. Herneith says,
    If everything was fair and the playing field level, these stereotypes would never enter into the equations as to the whys and whereto fores. A preference would be just a preference, people wouldn’t question why this person is marrying that person and affix stereotypes to a whole group of women. This isn’t so currently. There is a reason that white men are the least likely to marry black women as compared to other racialized women. Why? Racist ideation whether conscious or unconscious and other factors play a role. It is a obviously complex.

    laromana says,
    Herneith,
    You’ve stated my sentiments exactly. I have ALWAYS HATED the RACIST, ANTI-BW LIES, MYTHS, and STEREOTYPES (that are a MAJOR part of how BW are/have been DEVALUED/DEMEANED in American society) because they have UNFAIRLY BIASED men of WM/NON-BM against us. This, in turn, has led to BW being rejected by WM/NON-BM when it comes to marriage.


  708. 736 posts!


  709. ramblinrick says,
    This is a site for black women white men like. I think most black women here are datingg/married to a white man, or just curious. If not, they still have a right to be here as we do or anyone else. From my personal experience, I can say without a doubt. Black women are not complainers, whiners, and they do not snivel. They are VERY strong willed and will step up to the plate and take care of business. If they want to vent here, God knows they have that right. They can slam white men all they want, if it does not apply to me I don’t let it bother me. Black women are good women. If treated with proper respect, they are very loyal. I am speaking only of things I know to be true.

    laromana says,
    I want to commend you, again, for understanding where BW are coming from when we attempt to address the NEGATIVE ANTI-BW attitudes/actions from many in American society. I think WM/NON-BW who want to learn how to view/treat/understand BW could learn a lot from your example.

    I appreciate that, because you see BW as HUMAN BEINGS, you can understand WHY we are hurt/offended/disgusted by WM/NON-BM who treat us in a RACIST, COWARDLY, or otherwise ANTI-BW manner.

    You also understand WHY BW might speak out AGAINST the many UNFAIR LIES, MYTHS, and STEREOTYPES that American society uses to DEMEAN/DISRESPECT/DEVALUE BW so that MANY WM/NON-BM won’t consider us for SERIOUS DATING and/or MARRIAGE relationships.

    You are humble enough to NOT TAKE IT PERSONALLY when BW RIGHTLY CRITICIZE WM/NON-BM who treat us in a RACIST, COWARDLY, or ANTI-BW manner, because you understand that we ARE NOT directing these criticisms at WM/NON-BM who DO treat BW with RESPECT/DIGNITY.


  710. “They can slam white men all they want, if it does not apply to me I don’t let it bother me. Black women are good women. If treated with proper respect, they are very loyal. I am speaking only of things I know to be true.”

    this is something a real, secure man would say. Something a protector would say:)


  711. Thank you laromana. Again, I speak only of my experiences. I dated a black woman that had a law degree. I have dated black women, I’m sure some here would call ‘ghetto’. But, I have seen the black single mom with three kids, work two FULL TIME jobs so her kids could grow up in a safe environment.

    My wife has two kids in high school. Daughter is a senior, the son a junior. She told them years ago, each pick something they really wanted to do and she would see they were able to do it. The daughter decided on song and dance, the son chose art. The lessons were expensive, she worked her job and a couple of part time jobs to be able to afford the lessons. She would accept very little from me. She taught them, no matter how unfair life may be, you have to give respect to get respect. If you walk into a place to apply for a job, you really can’t expect people to take you seriously, if your pants are hanging below your ass. Both kids are very accomplished at their ‘hobbies’. They both already have academic scholarships. They’re very focused on their future, they understand work hard now, relax later. All the credit has to go to their mother. Their father was not a positive influence, not one word of encouragement. All he ever did was criticize. Mo Matter what challenges black women may face, they can always find something to laugh about.

    Any white man, or any man for that matter, that thinks he is interested in a black woman, spend some time anf get to know HER. Don’t generalize and don’t be so quick to criticize. Realize ech black woman is her own person.


  712. So is that what I sounded like before guys?

    Eek!


  713. Black & German’s experience does not surprise me either.


  714. I agree with Soul. Lots of times even blacks try to be somewhat PC in discussing heated subjects like race and will soften the way their words come out because they don’t want to offend others or be thought of as angry or militant or a host of other labels tacked on to blacks.


  715. Soul,

    I see your point, but I agree with Gen and B&G mostly because this is an online blog, i.e., something that has to be sought out. I’m generally suspicious of people who continually seek out things they claim to dislike, so I can see how ERE’s posts can seem trollish to some.

    On another note, I sense a bit of a double standard here. Wasn’t there some poster named Dave or Dan or something who got jumped on for “derailing a thread?” I don’t think talking about the evils white people falls under the category of “Black women that White men like.” Just some food for thought…


  716. @jasmin..
    I do;t get ur point.
    okay so this is an online blog… it is not a blog about seeking white men is it?

    What is she claiming to dislike but seeking out?. If you actually read who she is usually responding to.. it is those people who are continually claiming to dislike black women yet seem to be seeking them out.
    The problem she is having is she is responding to trolls. and some times when you do that, other people can’t tell the difference.

    But I’m really interested, could you let me know what it is she is claims to dislike, yet seeks out?. I might have missed it.


  717. Soul,

    That’s what I’m talking about, seeking out negativity specifically (in this thread out of 760 posts). I don’t see how spouting platitudes about White supremacy helps the cause, or why one would bother responding to trolls to the point that people worry about his/her health. Discussion is one thing, but basically saying the same thing over and over solves nothing, and if you hang around a blog long enough you tend to figure out who the trolls are and ignore them. I do at least…why bother with someone whose goal is to cause trouble and enjoy watching the implosion? On a personal level, you are doing what they want (thereby encouraging further trollish behavior), and on a practical level, they aren’t going to listen anyway. That kind of engagement seems more drama-seeking than anything else, whether it be the troll or the person who always responds.

    On another note, I’ll agree with Mayhue(?) in that it’s hypocritical to get mad at someone saying “All Black women are X” then turn around and say “All White men are X”. To me those statements are 2 sides of the same ignorant coin, and a further indication, to me, of trollishness, since people who start statements with “All [insert race]…” tend to be up to no good.


  718. Excellent comment!

    I particularly like the idea of bringing racists back to their original statement and make them defend it without the usual BS.

    We tried that on Saturday with James Smyth on “What to tell your children about racism” but he disappeared! He said that white families that go to amusement parks are in “mortal peril” from black amusement-park-goers. It starts here:

    http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/07/29/what-to-tell-your-children-about-racism/#comment-26342


  719. He said that white families that go to amusement parks are in “mortal peril” from black amusement-park-goers.

    It’s finally happened. I spit my tea out all over my laptop. What a mess.

    Abagond, you should have a warning before mentioning such a stupid and ridiculous post.


  720. Soul,

    I wasn’t highlighting ERE, I was responding to a comment someone else made about her. I guess we differ in that I don’t think trolls actually care to here what other people have to say, so I don’t see a point in acknowledging it (I usually skip posts with certain names on them). If I’m going to do anything to educate people (though I don’t think anyone here should feel like they have to take on the burden of “enlightening the masses”), I’d rather do it in the real world, because at the end of the day, this is just a blog. The real work to be done is outside of this computer screen

    I think you make a good point here: Sometimes it’s hard to ignore falsitudes written about you and it’s sometimes even harder seeing everyone ignore or attempt to engage politely with a racist who has just spouted some crapola which you’ve been dealing with since 3rd grade, but what I think is crucial is knowing the difference between someone who is ignorant and someone who is just provocative. You might be able to get to the former, but the latter is going to keep coming back because you keep giving him what he wants, which is a reaction.

    Abagond,

    I can’t agree with this statement totally: I particularly like the idea of bringing racists back to their original statement and make them defend it without the usual BS. because I think racist trolls are trolls first. Their sole goal is to stir up s***. Since this blog rejects the idea of the inherent inferiority of Black people, it’s obvious that the easiest way to stir up said s*** is to say something racist. I’m not saying these people aren’t racist, but, for instance, if they went to a site about new moms they might talk about how all the babies are ugly and deserve to die or something weird. They know what buttons to push, I guess that’s how they have fun.

    The best example I can give (without calling anyone out too obviously) is of the certain someone who claimed to like BW, but had never dated one, small town, etc. When the comments about BW in his area being ghetto came out, I thought the responses to that were interesting, well thought-out, and served a purpose. It appeared that he wasn’t trying to be racist, but obviously those statements were, and that wasn’t a healthy mentality for someone allegedly trying to be in an IR relationship. Now, when he kept riding the ignorance train I just threw my hands up at him and started ignoring his posts, because they wandered into troll territory, but the volume of his responses indicated he *likely* wasn’t an intentional s*** starter.

    Now this James Smyth character is a troll. He shows up, says something inflamatory, and then disappears. Then he gets to sit back and watch the implosion. Does anyone really think he cares to learn? No, but he got a good 10 or so comments related to him out of it. Educating trolls is like trying to teach a newborn Chinese…not gonna happen.


  721. If I’m going to do anything to educate people (though I don’t think anyone here should feel like they have to take on the burden of “enlightening the masses”), I’d rather do it in the real world, because at the end of the day, this is just a blog. The real work to be done is outside of this computer screen

    How do you know if many of the people on this blog are not doing this in the ‘real world’? Also, why is the onus on racialized people when it comes to educating white people whether personally or en masse? One of the functions a blog serves, is to act as a forum for disparate or like-minded viewpoints to be voiced and expounded upon(subject of course to the particular blog theme). You are quite correct in that an individual can skip posts topics etc on a blog, none disputes that. People who come here to read and comment on topics do so to communicate due to the diversity of the commentators. Also, people tend to comment more freely on subjects due to the fact that this is a blog and is for the most part anonymous. At least more so than they would when interacting with others in the real world. For the people who find commonality in certain posts, this can be a boon. It also serves as affirmation of many lived experiences, that daily, lifetime experiences are not in their ‘heads’. In many instances expounding these views in the real world, face to face, is not possible as the person you are speaking with may not be receptive to whatever it is you have to impart, never mind ‘educating’ them. Information gathering derives from a myriad of sources. Academic journals, scholarly books, studies, media, blogs, Internet, and lived experience. All legitimate sources of information when taken in their totality. Of course it’s up to the individual as to how they process any information. Hence the varied viewpoints irregardless of their tone or tenor, even the racist ones.

    what I think is crucial is knowing the difference between someone who is ignorant and someone who is just provocative. You might be able to get to the former, but the latter is going to keep coming back because you keep giving him what he wants, which is a reaction.

    Is there a difference? That’s a matter of opinion as to what constitutes ignorance and provocation on a thread. The two aren’t mutually exclusive. What one may consider ignorant and provocative, another might think is “telling it like it is” and vice versa. Comments made are, whether agreed upon or not, in the mind of the reader. As you said, when you get the feeling from reading that someone is a troll, you can skip their posts.

    I can’t agree with this statement totally: I particularly like the idea of bringing racists back to their original statement and make them defend it without the usual BS. because I think racist trolls are trolls first.

    How do you know that the ‘Troll’ for all intents and purposes, no matter how aberrant their viewpoint may be, is doing what every other commentator on this blog is doing: expounding on the topic at hand and voicing their viewpoint? Again you can choose whether or not to respond. Many do, many don’t, what of it? They do it from whatever viewpoint they possess. The trolls no doubt know how to push buttons. But again, one can choose not to respond or push back no matter the motive.

    Educating trolls is like trying to teach a newborn Chinese…not gonna happen.

    ?


  722. Hmmm? I’ve been a little quiet on this subject. Confronting racism is very difficult because most people get very defensive and the conversation goes no where. One of the methods I use when confronted with racism is to ask questions. Calling a person a racist right off the bat is not going no where. So when they say something that is racist, you ask questions on what possessed them to say those things. So therefore they will tell on themselves instead of blaming you. Some may try but they know it doesn’t work effectiviely than someone calling them racist. You as the person asking them questions about their racist commentary, makes them realize the wrong in their comment and to the point where they can’t blame you. Unfortunately this has been effective in person than on-line. People sometimes do not know how to pick up on tones correctly so therefore people sometimes misinterpret easily on-line.


  723. why is the onus on racialized people when it comes to educating white people whether personally or en masse?

    Co-sign. I believe if a person truly wants to understand about a social issue they can very well educate themselves. I mean a person can seek knowledge so easily than before because of the power of the internet, lol. That’s not up to racialized people to educate white people if a white person really wants to understand about racism and how it works in our country.


  724. dani

    very good!


  725. Herneith,

    Who said the onus is on minorities to educate people? I feel like some people take that role on, then get mad when it doesn’t work. My question is, how is it logical to keep engaging with someone who you know won’t listen? The only benefit I can see is getting a pat on the back, either from yourself or from people who already think like you do.

    But again, one can choose not to respond or push back no matter the motive.
    So if one decides to “push back” knowing the other person is a troll, what is the goal, getting the last word? It’s obviously not to educate or engage in dialogue, so I roll my eyes when people try to act like they are beacons of racial equality when it’s obvious they just like the drama.

    I don’t know what you didn’t understand about my troll/newborn analogy, so if you clarify I’ll address it.


  726. @jasmine:

    I don’t think most people come here in order to give their responses so as to effect a pat on the back. The anonymity of such a platform precludes this. This platform is not conducive to garnering praise or acknowledgement as it is anonymous. I am sure some do, most don’t. You will always get weirdos who will chime in with bizarre remarks such as the allegory you gave with someone going on the newborn forum and making incendiary remarks. It also depends on the degree of the blog owner’s moderation.

    Others such as myself wish to exchange their personal experiences, commonality and histories or general knowledge etc. I am not a pedagogue so I am not here to ‘educate ‘people’ I am also not going to ascribe these motives to other readers/commentators for the simple fact is I don’t know what everyone’s motives are. Yes some are obvious, some aren’t. To me these ‘discussions’ are akin to sitting and having a coffee with people and discussing issues whatever the focus, albeit on a larger scale. I like the fact that people from diverse countries, cultures etc respond here. If a troll responds occasionally or frequently on some posts, what of it? Most often these posts provide fodder for comic relief as they are beyond bizarre(James Smyth anyone?). Many sound like a broken record. Sometimes you respond as Soul says, when blatant falsifications are made. In particular ,ones you frequently hear in the ‘real world’. Usually they are responding not for the benefit of the troll’s ‘education’ for the troll is not interested in learning anything as you say. They may be giving a counter-argument to offset the troll’s for the other readers so they can get a different perspective(which they can choose to take or leave). Logical or illogical, provocative or staid. This type of platform (blogs) will always attract such as it is but an aspect of blogging by the very virtue of its anonymity. The anonymity of a blog, the informality and such, precludes pedagogy which in effect makes it a ‘free for all’. On several occasions the owner/mederator of this blog has deleted posts I believe.

    As to your last sentence, “Educating trolls is like trying to teach a newborn Chinese…not gonna happen.” Why would you use this allegory? Why Chinese? An infant eventually develops and acquires the language into whatever ethnicity or country of origin he or she is born in. Is this a metaphor? Your first allegory was already clear enough and an excellent illustration of what it was you were trying to get across.


  727. Herneith,

    I agree with what you said, but we are talking about 2 different things. I spoke about people engaging with trolls to the point that they just repeat the same stock points over and over, knowing the person isn’t going to listen (and that listening/learning was never his intention). Like I said, I don’t understand the logic in that, but since your comments don’t follow that pattern I wouldn’t expect you to have an explanation for why people do.

    The metaphor I used was to demonstrate the futility of talking to trolls. You can substitute “Chinese” with English, French, Spanish, whatever–I just like Chinese (the language). :-)

    I don’t know what you are talking about with infants…? Obviously everyone (barring some type of disability) eventually acquires language; my point was no one is her right mind would attempt to teach a newborn baby how to speak because it’s impossible, and thus a waste of time. How is “reasoning” with trolls any different?


  728. Hey everyone,

    I am a Canadian woman of Barbadian descent. I am new to this blog.

    I agree with many points in this blog especially the annoying habit of lumping us all in one group as if we are all the same. We are as diverse any another group. I get so frustrated when people do not want to wake up from the media-manufactured propaganda matrix we are in. Come on….. Someone reads a few blogs or watches TV or rap videos and then determines from these images that they must be true about every person in that racial group…where is the logic? You cannot experience someone else’s culture (or life for that matter) without human interaction.
    ******************

    Araeyel said “plus I already know I wouldn’t get along with at least 70-80% of black women due to my music preferences.”

    How do you know this? What are you music preferences?

    I love most types of music. I learn to love classical music due to playing the flute in school. I love old school hip-hop (80’s). Today’s, hip-hop is hipcrap. I love classic rock; I am learning to play the guitar to learn to play Stairway to Heaven by Lead Zeppelin and Dream on by Aerosmith. I love heavy metal, alternative rock, jazz, motown, calypso, and salsa.

    In terms of movies, I love horror, action, comedies, and romantic flicks. I do not like sad movies because I am big crier.

    I love to travel. I have travelled in Canada, USA, Caribbean, and Europe. I backpacked through Canada and USA on my own. What an experience.

    I used to ski and skate. In school, I was on the track team, softball team, gymnastic team, and diving team. Also, I love to camp (except for the spiders – yuk).
    ********************

    Overall, I am a unique, interesting person. When I tell guys my interests, they seem surprised that I like what I like but then seem uncomfortable because they do not know how relate to me because I am different from what they expected. This goes for bm and non-bm.

    I like all types of men. If the whole package appeals to me, then I like it.

    SO GUYS, if you like us, just say hi with a smile. That is all it takes.

    Take care.


  729. Hello Canadian,

    Interesting post.

    I also agree about the music preferences. My favorite band is Wheezer. And yesterday I was jamming to Blur, No Doubt, Corrine Bailey Rae, and Paula Cole. In high school I went through a whole angry-teenager phase where all I wanted to hear was Nirvana, Garbage, Marilyn Manson, and Nine Inch Nails.
    I do have a special affinity for old school but the more modern stuff leaves me cold.


  730. @Canadian and B&G…
    please don’t fall for this nonsensical rubbish.

    Here we have it again, a white man who has no clue and thinks black women are ghetto using under hand tactics to put us in a box.

    This person, who has no idea has suddenly decided that black women must only listen to certain things which he has decided they listen to.

    I mean how much more ignorant can one get?.
    Is it beyond people like this to simply not judge or put people in a box.

    This is another, underhand tactic used by people like this to demand that you prove your sophistication, and it’s ridiculous.

    I love to display my love of hiphop to people like this, I once told a white friend with a poor vocabulary (seriously it was appalling) to listen to hip hop. She asked me why, and I said.. to improve your vocabulary.
    It will teach you more metaphors than you can shake a fist at and your alliterations will be on point.

    I will never dismiss hiphop, nor rap, nor soul or rnb nor jazz, neo soul, funk, grime, drum n bass, rock, high life for the sake of some ignorant person who uses his own lack of awareness as a divisive tool.

    It’s a nonsense.
    And yes, I happen to have season tickets to the National Opera house and attend recitals quite frequently, music is not a barrier it’s a an open floodgate.
    The beauty of it is present in ALL of it’s forms. If you don’t understand it.. then leave it alone and stay in your narrow box.


  731. Of course it’s a stereotype. They don’t think we get out much. These are the same people who are shocked to hear us speak with 5-cent words. It discombobulates them (10-cents!).

    I actually met my husband at a big rock party he was DJing (he used to DJ part-time) held out in this huge barn. He has a whole room downstairs just filled with CDs and records.

    I love to display my love of hiphop to people like this

    I like German hip-hop (and French and British and there’s some amazing Italian and Spanish stuff) but the newest American hip-hop is often jaw-droppingly obscene and completely lacking in talent.

    I prefer R&B anyway. Like Xavier Naidoo:

    http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=Zff&resnum=0&q=xavier+naidoo&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=6CjTSuWiA5S1lAfZ0vyoCg&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=10&ved=0CCoQqwQwCQ#

    In his music he’s talking about things that really affect us and discussing true human emotions, not just blabbering about drugs, guns and hoes. I know that there is quality American hip-hop but it doesn’t get much play. And it all sort of sounds the same.

    If you want a true word-Meister then you have to tap into the fount that is Herbert Groenemeyer. He can’t sing worth a damn but he’s so absolutely brilliant nobody cares.

    I think it’s cool that they all sing in German, too. Many of my favorite bands are German (plug: Wir Sind Helden! and Totenhosen) and the text can usually run rings around the American cookie-cutter stuff.


  732. Welcome Canadian!

    Good posts above. I wonder, has anyone ever replied to someone who stereotypes all Black people as liking rap/hip hop with some snappy comeback about the biggest consumers of rap being White teenage males? What do you think they would say to that?


  733. @Jasmin…
    Nope. I never do that. I just say to them..
    ‘If your taste is the bad in hip hop it nmust be this bad across all genre’s’.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with hiphop or rap as a genre.
    Just as there is nothing wrong with heavy metal as a genre.. I don’t see people condemning metal cos some aryant nation types use that form of music.


  734. Answering trolls, etc:

    I agree that trolls are a lost cause and so are most of the racists who comment here. But please keep in mind that for everyone who comments there are 10 to 100 people who lurk and read what we say.

    For example, this post has received 781 comments. For this blog that is huge. But it is nothing compared to the number of visits this page has received: 54,498.

    So while I agree that “these ‘discussions’ are akin to sitting and having a coffee with people and discussing issues”, they are in front of an audience.


  735. So while I agree that “these ‘discussions’ are akin to sitting and having a coffee with people and discussing issues”, they are in front of an audience.

    Yeah, it’s sort of a strange phenomenon.

    I wonder, has anyone ever replied to someone who stereotypes all Black people as liking rap/hip hop with some snappy comeback about the biggest consumers of rap being White teenage males?

    The only person I know personally IRL that listens to gangsta rap is my white, male, German cousin.


  736. Good Anglo hip-hop:

    More of this, please.


  737. Lol, Soul, what do people say after that? I can’t imagine the conversation would go much further, but it still doesn’t get the point across that Black people *can* be interested in other types of music or that some Black people (gasp!) actually don’t like hip hop and/or rap at all.


  738. i only like old skool rap


  739. nowadays rap sucks


  740. Old school is good. Back then they had a MESSAGE.

    Have you seen Ben Fold’s rendition of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSJxvi767kQ ? Putting that mess to a different sound makes it glaringly obvious how absolutely revolting it is. Ben Folds is pure genius, BTW.


  741. lol that is great


  742. yea rap wasnt always so degrading its a shame people have ruined our artform


  743. The Canadian said:

    Azrazyel said “plus I already know I wouldn’t get along with at least 70-80% of black women due to my music preferences.”

    “How do you know this? What are you music preferences? “

    (Formerly Azrazyel to let you know.)

    Well, I listen to Heavy Metal 97% of all music my mind consumes. I hate (c)rap/hip-hop with all my ears can muster. I’m not saying all blacks listen to rap, but I can say my preferences are strict so it’s only wise for me to be around someone who shares the same qualities.

    Anything from Black Metal, Death Metal, Melodic Death Metal, Brutal Death Metal, Industrial/Cyber-Grind on and on and on. I do listen to Alternative, Rock and 80’s as well.

    So yes, (70-80%) may be an understatement.


  744. @jasmin…
    They usually say.. ‘what do you mean’.

    And I say, well when I listen to music, I’m listening for words, rhythm, a boherent beat, style, flow and finally something that fits the mood I am in. That’s why the charts have never had any particular effect on me.

    I tell them when they say rap or hip hop is crap.. What are they listening to?. Do they know how to discern good music from bad?.
    How can you love music and have no idea o f good rap and non-good rap.
    Then I break down one of my fav raps or hiphop lyrics and they STFU.

    Or I usually ask them to state why they like what they like.. and usually it’s some airy fairy pop rubbish chart stuff or some ridiculous airguitar incomprehensible metal stuff which only makes sense when they are high a a kite.

    Listen, When Mos def writes lyrics like this, how can anyone tell me it’s crap:

    I stretched my arms towards the sky like blades of tall grass
    The sun beat between my shoulders like carnival drums
    I sat still in hopes that it would help my wings grow
    So then I could really be fly
    And then she arrived
    Like day break inside a railway tunnel
    Like the new moon, like a diamond in the mines
    Like high noon to a drunkard, sudden
    She made my heart beat in a now-now time signature
    Her skinny canvas for ultraviolet brushstrokes
    She was the sun’s painting
    She was a deep cognac color
    Her eyes sparkled like lights along the new city
    She lips pursed as if her breath was too sweet
    And full for her mouth to hold
    I said, “You are the beautiful, distress of mathematics.”
    I said, “For you, I would peel open the clouds like new fruit
    And give you lightning and thunder as a dowry
    I would make the sky shed all of it’s stars like rain
    And I would clasp the constellations across your waist
    And I would make the heavens your cape
    And they would be pleased to cover you
    They would be pleased to cover you
    May I please, cover you, please”

    How can anyone look at the concept behind Lupe Fiasco’s albums and tell me they are crap.

    No way, I love hiphop. No other genre of music uses metaphors like hiphop.

    I’m currently reading some old classics.. streams of lyrical prose. That’s no different from hip hop.

    Have some people bastardised it?.. heck yeah.. same thing with what happened to rock post the 80’s. The industry got a hold of it and rappers realised they could make songs to appeal to lil white kid fantasies. It’s like living an alpacino movie isn’t it?

    But, I’m not letting them hijack or destroy or belittle a form of music which is still political, still powerful and damn it.. still raw like freshly cut onions (see that’s the hip hop speaking). lol


  745. i just want to say i ama white male and i think Jasmin is very cute!


  746. Lol, thanks Joe, though I hope you realize I am on the right, not the girl holding the camera (that’s my 15-year-old sister!). Time to change the Gravatar…don’t know if she wants to be up there, lol.

    ERE, I love classical music! (Probably since I was a bando in high school lol.) I think my favorite genre overall the R&B/Neo-soul music. (I know those are 2 different genres but I can’t just pick one category!) I love Maxwell, Jill Scott, Alicia Keys, Vivian Green…


  747. PS. What’s Iwa?


  748. @Black&German

    British & hip hop rarely ever go together. It just sucks.
    Did you know that France ha the 2nd largest hip hop industry in the world and Germany the 3rd.


  749. Golden age hip hop (from the time of Run DMC – When B.I.G. was killed. 1984-1997.)
    Is the greatest genre of music ever.

    I think you guys know my musical tastes : Golden age hip hop (from the time of Run DMC – When B.I.G. was killed. 1984-1997.), Drum & Bass, Metal (except death or prog), Rock (except prog and Britpop/indie), Punk, Funk, Soul (not RnB), Roots Reggae and Jazz (not the elevator musak kind.)

    I can’t stand – Grime (it just plain sucks), all other genres of dance/electronica music and Indie/Britpop rock (so bloody talentless)


  750. Vindicator:

    What is the difference between soul music and R&B and what are examples of each?


  751. Abagond, when are you going to enlighten us with a voodoo post?

    Vindicator:
    British & hip hop rarely ever go together. It just sucks.
    Did you know that France ha the 2nd largest hip hop industry in the world and Germany the 3rd.

    I’ve heard some good British stuff but I usually stick to Deutsches.
    Germany has an enormous music industry.


  752. on Tue 13 Oct 2009 at 19:07:47 mynameismyname

    There is no such thing as “neo-soul”. That term is a record exec-created catchphrase to catergorize modern R&B that has a strong ’70s influence and/or live instrumentation and/or a black boho aesthetic. A lot of the music that is thrown in the “neo-soul” pile tends to be very adult, in its groove and lyrics.


  753. But isn’t the term “neo-soul” just so catchy? :-P

    I thought neo-soul meant soul music from the late 90s-present.


  754. Dark-skinned, 5 ft, size 4, not much booty, natural hair. Listen to mainly rock. I guess I’m the epitome of the black women in this blog entry…


  755. What does this stuff mean from the writer?

    “And yet they do prize whiteness in women
    It is more in how she talks and acts. And in the general shape of her body – thin…
    …not act too “ghetto”, but more like a middle-class white woman.”

    How does one talk and act white? How is being thin and not acting “ghetto” attributed to being white?

    Do you mean to tell me that if a black woman is thin and speaks with the education and good sense her parents gave her that that is called being white? Really?

    Not simply called being an average or middle class black person.

    Contrary to popular belief education, common sense, free and intelligent thinking, and slimness is NOT OWNED BY WHITE PEOPLE!

    And… speaking with slang, being rowdy, using improper English or being ignorant DOES NOT BELONG TO BLACK PEOPLE.

    All people have equal opportunity at both sides of the coin.

    Hello people in 2008/9 the language of this article is ignorant we should know better by now.


  756. Di,
    You’re totally on point in your analysis. Applying negative generalizations SOLEY TO BW that could be used to describe ANYONE of ANY RACE, is ignorant and racist.
    It is also wrong to act as if BW can’t possess positive traits that are usually associated with NON-BW but can apply to ANY WOMAN.


  757. Why is that when a black woman or black person for that matter speaks proper english doesn’t role her neck and snap her fingers or do anything else stereotypical of blacks their automatically TRYING TO BE WHITE?

    In other countries not america, black people don’t do these things I have black friends from England and the Caribbean who ask why is it that black women in America act so Ghetto see it’s not being white when you act intelligently it’s being an upstanding citizen of the world. Would you want black people in politics to say ”guuurrll” or any of those other things?


  758. Well, Stephanie, I hate be redundant. It isn’t whites who buy into stereotypes, but many blacks, too.

    I am a dark skin woman who was introduced to classical music when I was a child. When I go to the opera I sumetimes get curious stares. When I listen to chamber music I sometimes find myself swaying to the music. It will throw at least one person in the room for a loop.

    I am who I am. I live a “love me or leave me” life. It is the quality most men say they are drawn to. It may be the reason many black men don’t know what to make of me.

    Live your life, not someone else’s. You will be happier in the long run.


  759. Luna Says:

    Live your life, not someone else’s. You will be happier in the long run.

    Luna,

    I could not agree with you more.


  760. drop it like its hot


  761. Well I like what I have read as many others have. My experience is limited as I have dated some women of different races but not as many as others that have commented. here is what is noted personally.

    When I was a toddler my mother was good friends with a Black woman that was married to a white man in Calgary Alberta Canada. This woman was the only woman that would or could babysit me as others I would ball my eyes out from separation anxiety. She had one girl that was as dark as her from a previous marriage and it was this girl that I would follow from room to room as she was also close to my age. I remember at 4 years of age kissing this 6 year old on the cheek and hearing her complain to her mother in the kitchen. Her mother laughed for a long time I was told and often called me her little Romeo. Perhaps that child grew up with a emotional scar from that, lol I am not sure.

    In the mall my mother would take me for a stroll and I would turn out of my stroller to watch either a black woman or a red head white woman. My point is early in life we are not as prone to societies do’s and dont’s and what catches our eye is often revealed without any hiding.

    I cannot summarize for each white man out there but I can provide my own view and whoever reads it can either agree, dissagree or receive insite as to what I am saying.

    To all you women out there, depending on a mans stage of life and life experiences a man can be holding back on asking a woman out of any ethnic background because of fear of being turned down or insecurity, feeling of not having much to offer or taboo topic or just shy etc.. however just like applying for a new job either a person fills out the application or passes the opportunity is a decision made by the individual. So many factors!

    Now getting back to the key topic: Personally I have always been attracted to a person’s eye first and because a black womans eyes are dark they offer a strong contrast which seems to hold my attention. Skin colour is something I also seem to hold close to my thumbs up top ten list.

    I was told when this black woman that babysat me as a child I would sit on the couch with her as she watched her tv or read and I would spend hours tracing with my finger the line of dark skin and lighter skin on her hand. i would sit and do that for hours I was told. I was also told that because her natural hair was often breaking she wore a wig but as a child you do not understand that and when she washed her wig one day while I was there I was horrified. Looking back I laugh even writing this article. I still remember the large eyes black as coal showing concern and her saying it is ok as she picked me up and comforted me.

    Am I predestined to be with a black woman I do not know but child experts say that our personality and likes and dislikes are 50% our core personality that we are born with and 50% how we are brought up. I agree with that for the most part. I also think who decides to break out of the shell and date who they want and who lets society decide who they can date or should date is based on the core personality. If you are extroverted then I can see you breaking out of the box more easily and not caring what other people think however an introverted person can still make a similar choice but it is often later on in life that they make the step.

    Personally I find myself attracted to a mind, a smart woman and as I age I find that more attractive as I have dated the blond bimbo with a curvacious figure in the past and I never will go back to dating a woman with no intellect. Some of my friends say, “Wow, what a sexy woman”, but after one date and a follow up coffee at her apartment I broke it off out of pure frustration. I also found to my amazement that a woman as sweet as she may be if it is not coupled with intelligence it will be a boring and frustrating life in and out of the bedroom with little passion. She can have a body of a 10 but if there is no brain attached it is as useless as tits in a bowl to me, it showed me how much the mind is a major component and I am sure it is the same for you women looking for a mate. If there is no compatability mentally then the rest will promptly fall apart.

    Aside from the mental level there is the physical, the smell of her skin, the colour of it, the texture and feel of her hair and skin close to mine, basically the senses that I judge my immediate world around me, taste, touch, smell, sound, and sight all affect how a man will respond to a woman and the level of attraction is how many of these topics have a check mark or an X beside it.

    In my early years (18 to 25) what attracted me to a woman was first looks, then smell and her mind and attitude was considered last. Then after 25 I started to reshuffle them around a bit, what was said and how it was said became more of a key role in how attractive the person became to me. It also made me realize that what we are on the outside fades with time so looking at what is on the inside takes more of a precedent as that is what you are left with as time goes on.

    People live mostly visual and it is one of the longest range senses that we have so of course how a woman looks is the first attraction level then what she says and what she says is now second on the list.

    I think as a white male in today’s society I am attracted to a black woman or a woman of different ethnic background because I enjoy and am attracted to something different than myself. I would not be attracted to a female clone version of myself and I think that most people out there would agree with that unless they kiss their own reflection in the mirror every morning. Opposites attract but for me it is within reason.

    For an example I was friends with a BW that was a wild child but I would never have gone out on a date with her because her lifestyle was not within my personality compatibility range. Whereas another one I admired for looks and personality I never asked out because I felt that she was so perfect that for sure I would have been turned down so I never asked her out, the fear factor of being turned down is sometimes strong. Later on in life I crossed pathes with her, she was happily married but confided that she wished she had asked me out as she felt I was fence sitting and neither one of us made a move. So in that case we both were at a loss or a life long regret! She coined a phrase from a song stating if you cannot be with the one you love then love the one you are with.

    I think today there is just a curiosity as to what a black woman would be like to be with, then others would be looking at a black woman as a mate just because they are more appealing to them, ( a preference thing) others may be looking out of their own race because they have been burned within their own race so many times and want someone to love but not finding a suitable partner where they have been looking previously. Others are possibly mesmerized by the characteristics of certain black women features.

    Myself the blacker the skin colour the more attracted I am. For me it is not the teenage boy wondering just how dark the woman’s nipples are or how round her ass may be, it is of the whole picture, how in areas of her neck the lines may be or how around her lips the distinct curves are. Her dark pupils against the white of her eyes, the palms and soles of her feet in contrast to the rest of the surrounding skin. The skin itself is very different to mine.

    Perhaps I am a bit fanatical about a black woman and others may be looking at my words as a freaky man, perhaps I am but I think if you were to interview the few black women I dated you would hear that I was passionate about them and their life. The two reasons they were not long term is one died and one moved away, the third I was too scared to ask out and I will regret it for my remaining years.

    My advice to any white men is date other flavours of women out there it will be an eye opening experience as you get to learn from someone else a different view on life, it will open your perspective and open your mind on alot of levels.

    I still have fond memories of dining with one BW and enjoying her company and enjoying her eyes as she talked about her day or what trip she wanted to go on. It was not about physical attraction but the whole picture; it was not just a sexual curiosity but discovering and developing the whole passionate package.

    I was biased at an early age ( 4 years old) I do not know why but I have always been attracted to a black woman, not cinnamon, not caramel, black that has always seemed to be what caught my eye.

    And as an adult I just expand my appreciation and enjoy listening, the expressions, all the features in motion that I do not seem to take note of with a white woman. I do have alot of white and other ethnic background female friends that I am close with and enjoy their company just seems to be a soft spot for me with a black woman. the preference that rules heavy for me when choosing someone to date.

    Life is what we make of it and destiny is partially our choices and sometimes not ours to choose but we should try to steer ourselves in the directon that we want rather than just leave ourselves to drift in the wind aimless and with seemingly no directive for that is truly a waste of a life and unfortunately at 38 I am just really seeing that now. Live life, respect others but steer your own ship do not drift or your regrets will be plenty.


  762. Did anybody bother to read that last post? I just… can’t.


  763. That one long manifesto…lol!


  764. Paul K.,
    Thanks for reminding WM/NON-BM who are attracted to BW (and may want to establish SERIOUS DATING or MARRIAGE relationships with them) that there is a PRICE to PAY for allowing COWARDICE or the ANTI-BW RACISM of OTHERS to keep them from being TRUE to themselves and who they REALLY love.


  765. B&G leigh204,

    He must have a LOT of free time.


  766. i managed to read most of it. I’ll be alright though. :-D


  767. Paul K: That did come off as a bit freaky, but it does make the point well that life is too short and precious to waste it on what others think.


  768. Where are the curvy black cowgirls who are into Country music,dancing and rodeo?(CURVY,NOT FAT BROADS!!!!)


  769. Paul, you’re obviously a writer. I can appreciate your honesty.

    We all are a product of life experience. No matter how we got here, we’re here. I can’t say there was some pivotal moment when I first considered dating white men. I was taught to accept people for who they are. It really didn’t hurt growing up in a military family.


  770. I’m a white man who dates black women. I grew up in public schools playing sports with the ‘brothers’ & those have always been my friends, so I started dating black girls as a teenager and never quit. Mostly they have been like the 1st group of pics in the article.

    One thing that hasn’t been brought up that makes me hesitant about getting married & having kids is having ‘black’ kids. Not in terms of complexion, but in terms of society (& even the attitudes of many of the women I’ve dated). Like how Halle Berry/Alicia Keys, and most ‘mixed’ people are automatically ‘black’. I’m not black. That bothers me that my kids could somehow be ‘taken away’ from me, or be different/other/opposite of me. I know its not real, and its just society saying that, but that’s how it is. I’ve seen plenty of little light skinned mixed kids who hate white people & are super pro-black, even though one of their parents is white. And as anyone who pays attention to Tiger Woods knows, the majority of black people WILL NOT allow anyone who is part black to claim they are anything BUT black. As if the incredibly racist slave days ‘one drop rule’ is factual.

    I realize if I’m raising them they won’t be like that (and instead respect both white culture & black, and also see themselves as an individual human being- not a ‘race’), but its still a concern.

    Any thoughts?

    Maybe I’ll move to Europe.


  771. @ Luna- I grew up in a military family too. You might be onto something.


  772. Im a white man, and I love black women. All types, all shades of skin. I dunno why. I grew up in Atlanta…which may be like 200% of it.


  773. Chuck, I wouldn’t make too much of the whole “belonging” thing. The reality is those of us of African American heritage have at least one white ancester.

    Although we struggle with colorism in the black community, we are undeniably uniquely American.

    If you are comfortable with who you are your children will celebrate their complete heritage.


  774. @chuck,

    I have a nephew who is mixed, and remember one day he asked me if we would stop loving him because his mother is white. He also asked if we would not let him come around because of that fact. It hurt me to my heart to even hear him ask that question. But obviously it was on him mind becaused it was placed there. I told him no! we loved him regardless and it did not matter what HE decided to classify himself as, we as his family did see him that way….he turned out to be a well adjusted kid. That is because He chose…we did not make it for him…


  775. My experience has been when kids are in personal contact with a diverse group of people they begin to notice race around 5.

    I hada a good friend who relayed this to me. I met my friend when her son was about 3. We were very close. We were both stuggling financially. During that time I met and married my husband who is white.

    One day he said to her, “You’re light I’m light and L*** [my husband] is white.”

    “Yes,” she replied.

    “And Luna is dark?”

    “And you know what that means?” she asked.

    His eyes widened. “What?”

    “It means she’s dark,” she replied.

    And that was the end of it. Adults make much too much about skin color. Kids see it for what it is.


  776. on Thu 29 Oct 2009 at 03:00:52 freekoffhisleash

    Wow. I disagree completely. I prefer REALLY dark-skinned black women. I love the full lips. The one thing I would have to agree with your thesis on is I am picky about noses on black women. They dont have to have a Roman nose, but the really wide, flat nose does not attract me. However, of your list 15 of women that you thought most white men would not date seriously, I would be all over at least 8 of them! Heather Headley is on that list. Are you serious? She is gorgeous, and with a killer voice that in my opinion blows Whitney out of the water to boot!


  777. hi. just wanted to tell of my experiences with white guys.

    i am a 5 foot 11, 145 lbs darker skin black woman. i usually wear my hair straight, curly sometimes, i am thin but also very toned. i have more african american facial features, i have a broader nose and full lips.

    i have been with a white man for 2 1/2 years now. im not really sure what it is but i tend to attract more white guys than black. all of my adult life i’ve only dated one black guy from the previous years.

    when i talk to black men, now this is from my experience, they tend to question the way i talk, dress, the music i like, generally my whole lifestyle they dont seem to understand and it seems as if they get offended. im not sure, maybe its because they just cant relate to me in the way that they think they should.

    now when i sit and talk to a white man, we tend to have more in common even though im from a lower middle class family. we tend to like the same music, i love all kinds, alternative rock mostly, contemporary, r&b, some country is fine. we just seem to click more and have more chemistry. i dont know.

    also, when ever im out i get approached more by white men, be it a bar, the grocery store, mall wherever. im not too sure what it is?

    i like white men because i feel we have more chemistry, we can converse about various subjects for longer periods than i can with a black man. im not college educated. although i am in the process of completing my college course work i have yet to receive a degree. though i usually dont mention that right away.

    any way, this has gotten long lol, i tend to attract more white men than black.


  778. I would say it is mainly your figure. Common interests affects it too, but that comes second.


  779. Freek off his Leash:

    Which eight?

    All the women on this page are gorgeous. I divided the list into two based on the kind of black women I see white men with.

    It is also partly based on comments made by whites about the women in question. For example, whites will readily agree that Gabrielle Union is beautiful, but I do not hear the same about, say, Phylicia Rashad (even though she is way better known among whites).


  780. on Sun 1 Nov 2009 at 18:00:55 Oh Blah Dee Blah Dah

    RE: Mayhue

    “The meme that Black women are unlovable, disgusting and unattractive started from somewhere and it certainly didn’t start in the Black community (even when you factor in virulent colorism within the Black community)—the blame should be placed on those who created this system in the first place—white men.”

    =====================
    BW have endured the debasement by ALL groups, ESPECIALLY that by BM, even though BW and BM have, including today, the most frequent and highest interaction between each other.

    What is the explanation for so many BW being denigrated by so many BM? Numerous published studies have shown that BW are at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder. Typically, each group (generally speaking) looks down on the group(s) below it. No matter who created it first, why are BM not respecting BW today, even though you blame the white man for creating this system?

    The expression, “Two wrongs don’t make a right,” applies here.

    BW have endured, persevered, supported themselves, and raised their children after being abandoned by the fathers. Now BW realize that they are strong, determined, and can make a future for themselves. BW can do for themselves what BM men should or could have done for the BW in the past.

    As more and more BW realize this, they will have improved self-image, increased confidence, and get the true love that BW deserve.


  781. on Sun 1 Nov 2009 at 19:15:39 mynameismyname

    ^^^
    Black men and black women aren’t respecting each other as much as they should. You can’t solely point the finger in one direction.


  782. thanks for Theresa Randle


  783. I would like to comment on one white mans preferance. I have extremely over powering weakness for black women. Not just the Gabrielle Union type even thought you would have to be a told fool not to think she is a knock out. I am atracted to all kinds of black women, as Iget older I find them more beautiful than white women. Maybe this has something to do with allthe traveling I have done and seeing women from all over the world. However in my top ten list of most beautiful women in the world they are all black, and there not all Beyonce and Gabrielle types. Serina Williams now there is an absolute hottie. How about Phylicia Rashad I think she was a exceptionally attractive Women.
    This whole thing is quit upsetting. All women have beauty and if a man cannot see it he is not desevant.


  784. To Eric
    Thank you for your comment, it makes me feel good that there are people like you in this world.


  785. One of the posters commented on how black men didn’t approach a girl from Africa until he saw that white men were interested.
    That’s because black men think black women are their property even if they don’t want them.

    I have been scorned by black men all of my life. I’m short, medium brown and have natural hair and full features. When my white husband was alive and we would go out, the black men would hit on me all of the time right in front of him or they would loud talk us. Ironically, I’m willing to bet those men would drink Halle Berry’s bath water, yet those same men can’t stand seeing an interracial couple like her parents. However, when I would go out alone, it was if I was invisible.

    It seems to be that way with most races. Black women think they own black men, and hate to see them with women of other races. It’s the same with white women with white men and vise versa. When my husband and I used to eat out or go to the grocery store, we’d have to deal with these evil white women giving us dirty looks.

    As for this article, I tend to see white men with very dark skinned women. It also seems that white men like natural hair more than black men do. My husband used to love shampooing mine. Unfortunately, most of the black men in my family look at you with such pity if you have natural hair especially if it’s short. It’s a wonder I have any self esteem at all.


  786. M.S.,
    I’m so sorry to hear that you and your husband had to endure disrespectful behavior from MOST BM when your husband was alive. NO BW should have to put up with this GARBAGE.
    Hopefully, as ALL of us become more ENLIGHTENED in our treatment of IRR’S, this kind of behavior will eventually be eliminated.


  787. LOL To all those who started to read my ” manifesto” It was meant as just a point of view as to various ways we all can get lost in society and allowed to become a part of the masses instead of an individual as we all really are.

    if I offended any by my ramblings such as Black&German has mentioned then I do apologize.

    And to Luna no I am not a writer just someone that wanted to express my thoughts so others would not miss out on what all I have miss out on. I have a weekness for dark skin that is something I have and it is just like any passion a driving force that fills my head and heart with emotion after all that is part of the human spirit whatever colour or ethnic descent we are. So I wrote, and wrote and wrote… lol much to the dismay of Black&german. Ok well gave him something to bitch about lol.

    Well before I ramble on another book and get reprimanded a second time I had better conclude quickly!!

    I think we all need to think as individuals in the rat race called life because the world is moving so fast we often do not take the required time to look at all the prospects out there and make the best decisions for us. If we did there would probably be less divorces in the world. I am reaching out as friends across cultures and colours and if I find something worth more time and energy I will put time into it. it has opened my eyes and ears to hear so many old people say their regrets, “shoulda coulda woulda but didn’t and regreted it”. OK leaving it there before I get shot lol.

    good thing I live in Canada where not everyone has a gun or I would be shot for my long worded texts.
    Hope the best for all bye


  788. One more thing i like moca but love dark chocolate so all you coloured women out there smile when you look in the mirror knowing you are admired by men like me, read the posts there are a few of us out there and we admire for different reasons. take care all!


  789. Just a headsup Paul K.
    Black&German is a woman. ;-)


  790. Oh my…..

    thandeka, what Eric is saying is not a compliment it is an insult and actually is a common phenomena amongst many white men.

    When they are in their youth and thus in their prime they act like we don’t exist. But when they get older and incapable of making children, way past their youth, have exploited us and the men that we produce they now seem able to finally acknowledge what we all know.

    That they have always wanted black women.

    Don’t you get it?.
    See if they got with a black woman in their youth and had kids they could not wilfully ignore the oppression that their own kids face, they could not be okay with the ‘okey dokey’ they would actively work at doing something about it.
    But it doesn’t serve their purpose and so they wait.

    They bide their time, profit from the exploitation and oppression of black people and then when they have no power, no will, no spirit they come with flattering words

    Do not fall for this, it is evil personified. These old men have nothing to offer except stories and lies.

    They leave us fighting for decades and them swooping in on some ‘let me rescue you BS’.

    Eric, we don’t want the likes of you, you have no part to play in uplifting and countering the issues we face.
    What are you useful for?,
    You are not even invested in us, you are simple a polite version of those the vile racists who want black women just as much but will use violence to get us in their youth.

    So you like Serena williams, so?. do you think that makes you unique? Is that supposed to be radical?

    You spend your life fostering, celebrating and promoting ideas which re-inforce the idea that white beauty is the ideal beauty, you turn everyone against the notion of black beauty so that you can have your pick of us in your twilight years.

    It is despicable and evil.
    Black women don’t want the likes of you, you are a coward.
    Anywhere, I find people like you trying to slime ball your way into black women’s hearts I will make sure they are aware of your hypocracy and evilness.


  791. Soul,

    To piggyback off what you’ve said a bit, I don’t take it as a compliment when WM say something along the lines of, “WW are ______, BW are better.” Anyone who is decidedly against an entire race of people is suspect in my opinion, and the fact that some BW are so desperate (that’s how it comes off to me) for the crumbs of any WM’s attention is really sad to me.

    If BW are going to become part of the general standard of beauty, why would we want a bunch of “I only like BW” bs? That’s just further exoticizing us, and to me it’s no different than BM who say they “only date WW.” I’ve never dated a White guy who exclusively dates Black women, and I don’t think I’d want to. It wouldn’t make me feel “special” to have some guy talk sh*t about women of his same race–seems unhealthy. I think we need to criticize this mentality more often, because it’s turning the IR movement (if such a thing even exists) slogan from “BW, explore your options” to “BW, let’s get back at BM for dating WW.” Not a good look.


  792. soul,
    I completely agree with your excellent analysis of Eric and OLDER WM like him.
    I, too, am DISGUSTED by OLDER WM who have spent their prime years treating BW as if they’re INVISIBLE, 2ND CLASS WOMEN/HUMAN BEINGS UNWORTHY of being pursued for SERIOUS DATING or MARRIAGE but, SUDDENLY, when they’re “OLDER” this type of WM expects BW to be impressed by his attention/give him the time of day. I say GET LOST. BW can do better than Eric and OLDER WM COWARDS like him.


  793. There have been some harsh words toward older white men who chose not to foww their hearts when they were in their 20’s.

    First, psychologically we do most of our emotion growth between the ages of 20 and 30. The person you are on your 20th birthday isn’t the person you are at 35 — thank God.

    Second, I am of the generation of the men you call cowardly. When my husband and I discussed marriage in 1987, I was quick to ask, “Are you sure this is what you want to do?” Although the world had changed for black men with white women, nothing much had changed in the thinking of Americans when it came to black women with white men.

    My husband and I were both active duty military. We knew the wife you chose affected your career. The white men who married black women during that time were braver than you will ever know.

    I will never forget the look on my husband’s commander’s face when he introduced me. It was impossible for that old man to mask his shock and discomfort. I smiled politely. The colonial stared at me all night.

    When we left the military I knew it was best to wait until my husband had a chance to guage to racial attitudes of his new employers. No amount of love or pride would pay the rent if he were to get fired.

    What many of you don’t realized is careers have been end or damaged becauses of racism. This is an era ov more enlightened attitudes.

    Please cut the old guys a little slack. Men don’t grow balls until after they are 30. By that time they have already made decisions that aren’t easily undone.


  794. Luna,
    Although I thoroughly understand what you’re saying, I still condemn certain OLDER American WM who SUDDENLY decide to pursue BW when they didn’t consider BW “good enough” for them in their youth.

    It has ALWAYS been necessary for American WM in IRR’s with BW to exercise courage due to the EXTREME ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE that has ALWAYS been a part of American culture. Had it not been for the COURAGE of the Lovings (during a MORE RACIST era than the 80’s), IRR’s would NEVER have been legalized.

    It’s because these OLDER American WM who might have been attracted to BW in their youth, were too COWARDLY to be TRUE to their REAL feelings and/or CHOSE to uphold ANTI-BW RACISM by treating BW like INVISIBLE, 2nd CLASS human beings/women, that they are deserving of DISGUST/CONDEMNATION when they decide to pursue BW now.


  795. Luna,

    Nope, I don’t cut anyone ay slack to toy with me and mine emotionally. If you want to do that, that’s fine and all well and good for you, but please don’t ask me to commend people for not having the balls to acknowledge their passion for a fellow human being when they are at their most rebellious and at their prime.

    Please lets not change history just because you are married to a white man. because if you are trying to imply that BM/WW were more acceptable in the 70’s that BW/WM then I will simply have to call foul!.

    Are you seriously trying to tell me that I do not realise that careers have been ended because of racism?. Seriously?
    Do you think my career has not been impacted by it?. Do you think I have not had to leave jobs simply because of racism?
    it is not a 70’s phenomena so please don’t go there.

    I’m afraid I do not cut cowardly men any slack whatsoever, be they black or white.
    the irony here is that a black man in the same era you speak of would have no choice but to deal with the racism, instead the man who claims to love you, cherish you beyond all else has a cop out because he want’s to let the world be, still benefit from the status quo, whilst letting other black people fight for the rights and well being of his wife.

    This is exactly my point.
    Older white men who go after black women are evil and pathetic.
    They want no part of the fight for the black women they chase, they want to appear like angels who have picked this one lucky person who they will sweep away from their community, they have nothing invested in seeing black people progress. It’s all just at arms length for them.

    I dare you to compare the attitude of a young White man who is married to Black woman (and has kids with her) with the attitudes of an old white man married to a black woman.
    The young man is emotionally invested, he has to fight to make the world better for his children.

    the old man doesn’t care.
    I cut them ZERO slack and quite frankly, it is an insult and beyond ridiculous to ask me to.


  796. I’m not saying ALL white men are honorable. I have met my share of slimeballs. It’s easy to spot them if you live in the real world.

    I have been less than courageous in my choice of men. For some of us it comes to us sooner, rather than later, that we have to live with the decisions we make. There is a point when we realize we can be happy only when we live true to who we are.

    You see, it isn’t only white men who struggle with family influences. Some black people are constrained by family loyalties, traditions, cultures and money.

    It is truly liberating to live your own life.


  797. Soul: Excellent comment.

    Making excuses for the cowardice of white men is making excuses for racism.


  798. @luna… and neither did I say ALL older white men, it would behoove you to note that when you comment on what I said.

    And i live in the real world every single day, thank you very much.
    The real world I inhabit is one MEN stand up for what they believe in.

    You are derailing and bringing up stuff I didn’t even say or make a point out of in order to rebuke it.

    No-one here said only white men do this, but you are making excuses for white men who do this. Yes, other men do it too, soo what? We are talking about black women that white men like and a familiar pattern arises out of this.

    Older white men, who are passed their prime and have no fight left in them finally admit to what we all know and actively start pursuing black women.

    These are men who did NOTHING/ZERO/ZILCH to stop people other white people from building the system which ensures that his future black wife will always be classed as a second class citizen.

    In fact, he contributes to it, because he knows that down the line it will help him to be able to entice a black woman.
    He invests NOTHING into helping people like his future wife, he removes himself from their suffering because erm… what is it again….
    oh yeah, he’s scared of not being promoted, of rocking the boat, of being unable to feed his family.

    in the meantime, other white men in their prime, marry black women and have children which makes them personally invested in the lives and the system which makes their childrens lives difficult.
    That white man becomes a FATHER to a black child and no decent man stands idly by, whilst their child suffers.

    That old white man who just discovered his gonads is pathetic and a usurper. A chancer and a lazy sod. A weak, pathetic, shrivelled up, selfish coward.

    No. I will not cut him or the likes of him any slack.

    He profitted quite comfortably and contributed (by supporting the system) to countless injustices, and now that we have struggled and come through it he suddenly realises ohhhhhh
    black women are soo strong, oohhhhh black women are soo beautiful.

    Get out of here with all that mess.

    Look, I’m living my own life mighty fine.
    I respect myself and other people who deserve respect. It will behoove you to take your own advice.

    If you want to make excuse for weak, conceited, selfish and shallow old white men, who have nothing real to offer except material comfort and their overwhelming superiority complex… then go for it.

    But please, don’t even begin to think that there are some of us out here who see right through that and will call a spade a spade.

    i refuse to support or give any slack to white men who support, invest and benefit from racism.

    it’s obvious they have your support, that’s all good.
    they do not have mine.

    That is all.


  799. Jasmin Says:
    Soul,

    To piggyback off what you’ve said a bit, I don’t take it as a compliment when WM say something along the lines of, “WW are ______, BW are better.” Anyone who is decidedly against an entire race of people is suspect in my opinion, and the fact that some BW are so desperate (that’s how it comes off to me) for the crumbs of any WM’s attention is really sad to me.

    If BW are going to become part of the general standard of beauty, why would we want a bunch of “I only like BW” bs? That’s just further exoticizing us, and to me it’s no different than BM who say they “only date WW.” I’ve never dated a White guy who exclusively dates Black women, and I don’t think I’d want to. It wouldn’t make me feel “special” to have some guy talk sh*t about women of his same race–seems unhealthy. I think we need to criticize this mentality more often, because it’s turning the IR movement (if such a thing even exists) slogan from “BW, explore your options” to “BW, let’s get back at BM for dating WW.” Not a good look.

    Preach on sister, preach on!


  800. I agree it is not a compliment for a white man to compare black women to white women favorably or unfavorably. It is a huge red flag his motives are insincere.

    I feel it’s easy for all concerned to get into the politics of race and ignore the central point of individual relationships and respect of the parties involved.

    As women we know when we’re being disrespected. People only treat us as we allow then to treat us. That is the bottonline.


  801. Okay… Sade is half black and half white, if we can call her black we can call her white too. And the same goes for Halle berry, so those two shouldnt be on here.


  802. In America, where the One Drop Rule still holds, both Sade and Halle Berry are black all the way. That their mothers were white making them half-white by blood is like a footnote, an Interesting Fact, not something that determines their race.


  803. Isn’t it bizarre that no matter what white people still try to define you. Just like during slavery.

    These individuals define as Black, they live and have lived a black experience.
    Fola shade Adu wasn’t even born in any European country she was born in Nigeria. She defines as black because she lived a black experience and is visibly ‘other’ to white people.

    If Sade Adu or Halle Berry were not supported in their endeavours by the black community, they would not be where they are now.

    If Sade Adu and Halle Berry lived in Brooklyn struggling to make ends meet no-one would be clamouring to demand that we ignore how they self identify and proclaim as white.

    If they were on drugs, sitting in a jail cell for fraud, no-one would be clamouring/demanding that how they identify be ignored and that they really are white.

    oh no!.


  804. black men are almost just like white men.

    They will sex and date black women but wont marry or take care of them.

    Black women especially should not let a man have sex with her til he has married her.

    its 2009 black women deserve better.


  805. @MzMee…
    you wanna speak for the ones in ur area . where I’m from they marry you right uick. By the time you are in ni, u have a fiance.


  806. on Mon 9 Nov 2009 at 06:55:43 mynameismyname

    In regards to comment #858: Preach, Soul, preach! LOL.

    MzMee,
    You seem to have a lot of bitterness towards black men. Perhaps you had an especially bad experience with one. I emphasize with you, if you have, but don’t be so quick to throw the baby out with the bathwater. If a disgruntled black man came on here angrily dimissing and disparging black women, I would rightfully blast him. The same holds true when the opposite occurs. Too wrongs don’t make a wrong.


  807. “In America, where the One Drop Rule still holds, both Sade and Halle Berry are black all the way. That their mothers were white making them half-white by blood is like a footnote, an Interesting Fact, not something that determines their race.”

    Okay, their fathers are black making them only half-black by blood is also like a footnote, and it does determine their race because they are BI-RACIAL. Stop trying to make them one thing, no matter how many times you say it, they are just as white as they are black.


  808. “These individuals define as Black, they live and have lived a black experience.
    Fola shade Adu wasn’t even born in any European country she was born in Nigeria. She defines as black because she lived a black experience and is visibly ‘other’ to white people.”

    No. The world defined them as black, how can someo