I have always thought that for a women to be beautiful and desirable she should have a good figure, one that is round in all the right places. She should have some meat on her bones. She should not look like a stick. Thin women do not even feel right: I can feel their bones!
To me this just seemed like obvious, common sense. I did not question it. It was the way God made me, and therefore all men. The stick women you see in magazines are creatures of the fashion industry. No real man would go for them.
Or so I thought.
I notice that when a beautiful black woman walks down the street, the black men will turn to look at her but the white men do not seem to notice her. Strange: they are still men, right?
Maybe they look down on blacks so much that they do not even consider looking at black women as the women they are.
But of course it is not that simple
Every now and then you hear white people say someone is “pretty for a black girl”. What can that possibly mean but that most black women are not pretty? That even the woman in question is not really all that pretty? That whites have an idea of beauty that is based on race, one clearly not shared by black men?
It seems that races have different ideas of female beauty.
That was the subject of the Tyra Banks television talk show earlier this week. On her show we find out that whites and Asians like their women thin, even unnaturally thin. They consider that beautiful. Just like in the magazines! Blacks and Latin Americans on the other hand, like their women to have a good, full figure. They consider that beautiful. Just like me!
Tyra had four American women on the stage: one white, one black, one Latin and one Asian. She showed them different sorts of women (often without giving away their race) and asked them who was beautiful and who was not and why.
It is hard for one woman to represent her whole race, of course. But still I was surprised at how they could look at the same woman and see her so differently.
Not only did the white and Asian women think the full-figured women were not beautiful, they thought they were disgusting and should lose some weight, if only for their health. Likewise the black and Latin women thought the thin women were too thin for their health. That is how far from beautiful they thought they were.
Even so it is hard for me not to think that whites and Asians have been brainwashed by Hollywood and Barbie into praising stick women.
But of course it is not that simple.
See also:
- Two postings that grew out of the comments on this posting:
- How a man looks at a woman
- black women
- white women
- Race in America
- Hollywood
- Barbie
- Tyra Banks
Wed 6 Jun 2007 at 09:45:39
This page gives excellent information on black women white men and here is
a similar page for black women white men
black women white men
Wed 10 Oct 2007 at 02:39:19
Thank you for bringing sanity to this question of race and beauty standards. I read so many articles on race and beauty. The vast majority of them are negative, polarizing, or both.
I read web articles written by white men praising the beauty of Halle Berry while ignoring or disparaging the appearance of all other Black women as if Halle is the only Black beauty in the world. Even that praise is quesionable, for everything has to revolve around race and genetics.
What say you?
Stephanie B
Thu 11 Oct 2007 at 02:29:25
Halle Berry is at least half white. What white men praise in her is her white beauty, not her black beauty. It is easy enough for them to like her while not liking most black women.
Sat 13 Oct 2007 at 01:30:15
Abagond,
What you wrote is absolutely true. They do praise her for being at least half-white. However, not all half-white, half-black women get praised. Mariah Carey gets praised as does Alicia Keys and Samantha Mumba. Faith Evans and Keyshia Cole doesn’t get praised because they don’t have “the look” white men prefer, namely “button nose” and “thinner lip.” Their features are “too broad” for most white men to handle. Could it be that Halle, Mariah, Alicia, and Samantha have white mothers as opposed to black mothers?
Also, the absence of Black women from mainstream movies and magazines is appalling. One of my favorite models, Naomi Campbell recently complained of the lack of Black models in Vogue and other mainstream magazines. She’s planning to open a modeling agency in Kenya to address the problem.
Naomi Campbell: “Black models are being sidelined”
Fed up with a lack of black models in the fashion industry, Naomi Campbell has spoken out about her frustration by criticising magazine editors. “Black models are being sidelined by the major modelling agencies,” she said at a press conference in Malindi, Kenya, where she is currently on holiday.
Five years after her last cover for British Vogue, Campbell highlighted the racial inequality amongst the fashion industry and the media. “I even get a raw deal from my own country. For example, I hardly come on the front pages of London’s Vogue magazine. Only white models, some of whom are not as prominent as I am, are put on the front pages,” she said.
The 37-year-old is even contemplating setting up her own modelling agency in Kenya to redress the balance. She is expected to fly to Nairobi to scout for potential talent. “I don’t want to quit modelling until I find that black models get equal prominence and recognition by the world media and information instruments” she added.
What do you think?
Stephanie B.
Sun 14 Oct 2007 at 19:58:10
Hooray for Naomi!
There are far fewer black models in high fashion now than in the 1990s, when you had Naomi and Tyra and others still modelling. Many fashion shows have no black models at all and feel quite comfortable with that. It is rare for a show to have more than one.
The modelling world has a particular idea of female beauty. It is an extreme sort of white beauty. Very few black women can fit it. Most who make it do so in spite of it.
I think part of what Tyra Banks is trying to do with her show “America’s Next Top Model” is to broaden that idea of beauty.
Sun 14 Oct 2007 at 20:03:25
What you said about Halle Berry as opposed to Faith Evans is interesting. I never thought of it that way.
Mon 15 Oct 2007 at 22:08:03
Well that’s because mainstream media always listed biracial beauties as having a black father and a white mother. They never talk about Faith Evans or Keyshia Cole as being biracial. They’re listed as Black women whereas Mariah, Alicia, Halle, Samantha, Jordin as biracial. Kimora Lee Simmons is Black and Asian.
Mon 15 Oct 2007 at 22:11:21
This post came from Rachel’s Tavern regarding the situation of models of Color in the modeling industry:
read this article in the New York Times today. Here’s a quote:
Nowadays the cultural landscape is well populated with actors, musicians, media moguls and candidates for the American presidency drawn from the 30 percent of the American population that is not white. Yet, if there is one area where the lessons of chromatic and racial diversity have gone largely unheeded, it is fashion. This reality was never plainer than during the recent showings of the women’s spring 2008 collections in New York and Europe.
Although black women in the United States spend more than $20 billion on apparel each year, according to estimates by TargetMarketNews.com, it was hard to discern an awareness of this fact on the part of designers showing in New York, where black faces were more absent from runways than they have been in years.
Of the 101 shows and presentations posted on Style.com during the New York runway season, which ended a month ago, more than a third employed no black models, according to Women’s Wear Daily. Most of the others used just one or two. When the fashion caravan moved to London, Paris and Milan, the most influential shows — from Prada to Jil Sander to Balenciaga to Chloé and Chanel — made it appear as if someone had hung out a sign reading: No Blacks Need Apply.
You can go read the full article at the link above, but I also thought it would be interesting to note that the NYT isn’t the only media outlet talking about the completely white ensembles of models at major fashion shows. Here’s a quote from an article in The Guardian:
I saw two black models and two Asian models during the whole of Milan fashion week – compared with hundreds of white ones. They were the same four I saw in New York. And in Paris it has been even worse. It is absolutely the norm for a show to be entirely Caucasian. If a black or Asian model is used it is either in a streetwear show, such as Babyphat in New York, or as a form of what the London-based Nigerian designer Duro Olowu calls “tokenism – you know, just the one black girl, and she’s usually wearing the crazy printed dress”. A good example of this was at the Dior show in Paris this week when the Asian model was assigned the Chinese-style dress. “Then these designers claim they get their ideas from the street or from Africa! It’s crazy!” says Olowu. “This is just not reflective of our time.”
A few similar articles have popped up in a German paper, The Daily Mail, and The Washington Post.
I guess it must have been very obvious to have so many “mainstream” (code word for white) media outlets notice how few women of color were found in this year’s fashion shows.
Mon 15 Oct 2007 at 22:14:28
Both Faith and Keyshia have white Italian fathers which accounts for their thick features and voluptuous bodies which a lot of men find appealing but shunned by white and Asian men as “too fat” and “ugly.” I consider the two ladies as beautiful women with womanly bodies. It’s too bad that mainstream media shuns them as not being thin enough. Faith Evans have beautiful broad nose and thick sensuous lips that please any man as well.
Stephanie B.
Tue 16 Oct 2007 at 12:00:17
Thanks for that piece from Rachel’s Tavern. It is a bit better than what I was saying: some shows have not one but two black models! As Rachel says, if the New York Times notices it it must be pretty bad.
Tue 16 Oct 2007 at 12:09:09
Mainstream ideas of beauty are like from another world. A woman should have a womanly body. I thought this was common sense, but if you look at, say, Maxim, it seems that white men have a different idea of female beauty. I cannot make sense of it.
Wed 17 Oct 2007 at 00:03:46
See my posting for October 17th on black fashion models. It grew out of the comments here.
Mon 22 Oct 2007 at 11:50:23
I am european and find it normal that there are more white models in Paris then others.
They mainly focus on selling to whites so better to judge if it fits also our pail color.
But to say i don’t like thin girls. I prefer a real woman. And i don’t differnciate between race – even i personal prefer dark brown. My favorit is Bria Myles. And she seems nice also in interviews.
Tue 23 Oct 2007 at 02:35:14
I like Bria too. I have a posting on her:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2007/10/03/bria-myles/
Tue 30 Oct 2007 at 22:22:45
Because of the distress and taboo caused by the fallout from slavery and colonialism, white men who do find black women attractive, are often scared to express their admiration, for being accused as fetishists. This is interesting; according to the lastest census, 80% of interracial marriages are between black men and white women. We are the last on the totem pole to intermarry; I guess it’s not like many sisters find white men attractive either.
As far as body weight, a survey was done by a magazine that showed women of various body types to men. The result was extraordinary. The higher the man’s income, the thinner the women he desired, regardless of race. Perhaps thin women are considered more of a trophy? It’s not like wealthy men need a woman that looks like she can cook well.
The world of high fashion is rarified, and does not include you or me; they are not interested, trust me. The cuts in size wouldn’t fit most white women either. That said, If you don’t like the way things are (as they are not going to change), maybe it’s time we reevaluate our taste levels. I support the work of black designers (of which there are a number), and black boutiques. I can buy uber-fashionable pieces that even my white co-workers comment on––although they won’t give the designers any press.
Ultimately? We have to learn that our designers, artists, models–––OURSELVES–are worthwhile, and support each other, despite what the rest of the world thinks. Only then, will they want to be part of our world; just look at the impact of hip-hop. Those kids didn’t give a damn about anyone white.
Tue 30 Oct 2007 at 22:33:59
Great comment! The hip hop comparison is a good one.
Do you have a link for that survey about rich men liking thin women? I would love to read more about it.
Wed 31 Oct 2007 at 20:32:12
The survey was taken a long ago, by Mirabella Magazine, but there’s a lot out there, and not much has changed. I just googled ‘wealthy men and slender women, and it was amazing what popped up. It seems that popular WESTERN culture, to a too large degree, has influenced attraction. Shame.
Sat 3 Nov 2007 at 23:00:13
Not only do wealthy men prefer slim women, they prefer them younger and blonder as well. Most wealthy white men think that having a thin, young, and blond white woman on their arms makes them prestigious in society’s eyes. Asian women are the alternatives for wealthy western men. But white women reigns supreme in the beauty/race hierarchy.
What say you?
Stephanie B.
Mon 5 Nov 2007 at 05:02:56
Rich men will tend to go for whatever is considered beautiful at the time.
In America in our time it is thin, blonde women. It does not prove they are more beautiful, just that their beauty is in fashion.
As late as the 1940s thin, blonde women were not considered to be all that good looking in general. Sophia Loren and Elizabeth Taylor, two leading beauties of the early 1960s, both had black hair and hourglass figures.
Fri 23 Nov 2007 at 05:00:10
When have you ever seen a white woman dye her hair black, cut it short and give it a perm to be more beautiful yet how many black women do you see with bleached, straightened hair?
Fri 23 Nov 2007 at 22:01:59
That is because white ideas of beauty are the fashion, not because white women are naturally more beautiful than black women.
Sat 24 Nov 2007 at 21:52:00
well, i am a black african. all my friends black and white find it very strange that i am mainly attracted to white men. to be completly honest, i would never date a black man. they are ugly and unappreciative whereas white men are caring and loving and much more gentle; they have a soft side. i hate the fact that i am black and i hate the colour of my skin, i wish i was white, or at least half white. i also think that being thin is much better, not disgustingly thin but thin. obviously curves are important and white women in gerneral have no curves or have no ass where as black women do. i would rather be thin with subtle curves. and it is true, white women have natural beautiful hair whereas black women have horrible hair. i just HATE being black! i like european men, especially iberian men they are very attractive. black men are not attractive they are ugly and in this world, black is not beauty, its ugly… WHITE IS BEAUTY.
Mon 26 Nov 2007 at 03:50:44
Wow. Thank you for your honest reply.
I know that on television and in the magazines the beautiful women are nearly all white. But who do you think owns the television networks and the magazines? Does that make white women more beautiful? It might seem that way sometimes, but it is not true.
To me black women are the most beautiful women in the world. I am not alone. You have nothing to be ashamed of.
Mon 17 Dec 2007 at 22:07:42
Angel I feel really sorry for you. I have never in my life felt like you, and I am so glad I was able to read up on my history to realize that black is beautiful. Even with all the bad along with the good, I’m still beautiful. I would never say whites are superior, because that is false. How can another human being be superior over another, when BOTH are flawed? There are people out there who want you to feel that way. They want you to continue hating yourself so you do not live up to your full potential. Trust me, even white women have problems in this world. If you think every white women is born a blonde, honey think again. When you stated that black men were ugly and unappreciative, it made me see you that way as well. Not only are you unappreciative for being created but you hate the very men who share the same features as you.
If you study white nationalism/instutionalized racism, and history pertaining to blacks/africans you will understand that we are both living under a system. This system is controlled by a group of people pumping out these messages of inferiorty to those they have deemed worthless. It is up to us to tear away from that system and realize who we are. You are not ugly, worthless, or a mistake. You are beautiful. You are strong and intelligent. You can be who you want to be if you choose to. You do not have to sit there hating yourself for the rest of your life, and trust me you will not find acceptance in any man until you find it in yourself. I hope you heal your mind and your heart. I hope you realize that when you give people that much power over you, you’ve already been lost into the system. Peace be with you sweetheart.
Wed 19 Dec 2007 at 12:11:11
Well said.
Thu 20 Dec 2007 at 10:16:49
Angel I feel so sorry for you. The fact of the matter is no matter how bad you want to be white, you never will be. And as far as wanting to be half white (which I get mistaken for often) you still are faced with the same stigmas. I’ve been called “half a nigger” and many biracial ppl have the same beauty issues as well. I also find your staments completly ignorant and heartbreaking.Also I’ve dated black and white men (I’m attracted to any race really) and it’s unfair to make assumptions that all black men are ugly dogs, and all white men are their perfect polar oppisites. It’s really sad, when a person can have so much haterd about one’s self. and any man (regarudless of race) will tell you confidence is beautiful. You have been brain washed into thinking like this ; I hope you find the confidence and self love you are lacking
Sat 22 Dec 2007 at 16:53:28
Something Jill Scott once said:
“Each of us is like a blade of grass, with all of the fantastic nuances that the Lord has given us. So to want to look like someone else, that is frightening. I think that’s just people deciding that there’s no beauty inside, that beauty has to come from the outside.”
Sun 30 Dec 2007 at 02:50:39
ITS ABOUT TIME SOMEONE BRINGS THIS UP! The media had brain washed the public into thinking white stick thin and straight hair is beautiful. I feel like this is because for many years whites have sat in the WHITE house. Because by economic standards they are powerful, people feel like they must look like their “leaders”. Its such a sad thought, a black person would modify his or hers apperence to mimic that of a caucasian. I think light skin is associated with power. Bush is Prez, alot of whites have suburban and high class homes. “white” has become “right” in the minds of the more insecure African Americans. I don’t even understand why black woman alter their hair. Black men seem to keep an afro clean and well managed, why is it so hard for the woman? Or braids or dreads or something at that. I think it makes white people feel more dominate when they see a black female sporting straight hair. “Why can’t she wear her own hair? Our is really that good” that tought, maybe not as specific, rushes through their minds. We need to put our selves out there in the media so that there is no longer a single concept of beauty. If we express our culture, who we are and our standards of beauty, it will make everyone feel impowered. Flat and asless is not attractive to blacks, and also latinos. We have to impower ourselves.
Fri 4 Jan 2008 at 22:29:11
I perfectly agree with what Angela and Jazmine said.
I think it’s a real pity to see how many black people consider themselves…So badly!
I can’t say that it’s easy to be black,(it would be exaggerated), but we must be proud!
Generous curves ? Well, a sign of health! Dark face ? Exotic and attractive.
I would also like to add, white men aren’t necessarily better, nicer, or more gorgeous than dark ones.
In a general way, white people aren’t better than dark one.
Angel, think about it….
Fri 4 Jan 2008 at 23:47:46
Last thing: if i had to compare, Brianna Francisco is so much beautiful and gorgeous than Paris…
She’s a real lady, i envy her! ^_^
Sat 5 Jan 2008 at 03:59:10
Of the two women at the top of the post Brianna looks way better to me than Paris Hilton. It is not even close.
Fri 18 Jan 2008 at 00:13:06
OMG….wake up, Angel!
“black is not beauty, its ugly… WHITE IS BEAUTY”
What planet…no, what UNIVERSE do you come from because last time I checked in *this* world white women are tanning, white women are getting breast, lip and butt implants to like who, sweetie…?
Yeah, that’s right…to look like all of us beautiful Black women that you sadly are trying to speak for.
PLEASE, PLEASE…JUST BE QUIET. DON’T SPEAK FOR ME or any other self-respecting Black woman.
I’m just so sick and tired of girls like you…everytime you guys open your mouths, it’s like word vomit.
I’m American born Nigerian (born in America) okay…and all kinds of guys have loved me and how I look.
Yes…AFRICAN ME…almond eyes, thick raven black hair, Hershey chocolate skin, FULL FULL lips, little waist and thick hips…YES…all of the white men YOU love so much have LOVED me in all of my African-ness, so what’s the problem, huh? What horrible place are you really coming from, because truly how can someone like me who’s NOT European at all have such a different reality about Black beauty than you?
I think it’s all in how you choose to see YOURSELF.
I love being dark and delicious…and I don’t apologize for my confidence because you know what…blonde white girls think they’re the shit, so why shouldn’t I?
I dated ALL men and I married a white guy who personally says he “just loves beautiful women.”
But I didn’t marry him because he’s white…I married him because of his personality AND because he saw ME, the woman and not as a fetish or a fashion statement.
You’ve got the Pecola syndrome so bad, I’m torn between hugging you or slapping you…I dunno which to do because girls like you make me sick, you know why?
Because 1: people who see me and my hubby together *probably* assume that I’m a lost Black girl like you and 2: (most importantly)a person who with self hatred is the most dangerous thing there is because if you don’t love yourself, you can’t *possibly* deal sanely with another human being.
Angel, I’m gonna hope you’re just young and very, very confused and not get too irritated with you.
I just wish you’d open your eyes and see what’s up.
You’ve allowed mainstream media of a country steeped in the effects of racial slavery to tell you about yourself.
Stop. Do some researching of your own.
Oh, yeah…and try to think *who* that white girl is really trying to be when she lays out in the sun with her Restylane filled lips and her “bronzer” in her bag!
Fri 18 Jan 2008 at 00:29:46
Oh and Angel: my mentioning that I’m Nigerian was a pointed comment to you saying you’re African as well.
I didn’t want any confusion between us and I wanted it known to those reading that if you’re a representation of all the sad, self-hating Africans, then I’m hopefully representing all of the confident, self-loving, self-affirming Africans out there.
African countries get enough negative, *false* press without the self-loathing comments of people like yourself.
Fri 18 Jan 2008 at 00:40:44
Kudos to Stephanie B.!
I think you’ve really hit something when you mentioned how the media refers to mixed women with white mothers as “biracial,” but if they have white fathers & Black mothers, they’re seen as Black.
It kind of reminds me of how people look at Afro-Brazilians and conveniently “forget” that most of the African blood in Brazil came from the relationships of Ibo and Yoruban *women* brought to Brazil and the indigenous and/or European men.
I’m sure if this were reversed, there’d be a HUGE thing about Brazilian women’s beauty coming from their white female ancestors, but that’s not the case!
One survey I came across proved this fact genetically and stated that 85% of Brazilians have at least 1 female African Ancestor.
So, now we know whose really responsible for the butts and lips of Brazilian women
Tue 29 Jan 2008 at 15:15:25
Jill Scott
Nice Post… do tou know what is the first?
Thu 7 Feb 2008 at 01:36:44
If I saw Halle Berry walking down the street and knew nothing about her, I wouldn’t think she’s biracial. If people are only applauding the white part of her beauty, wouldn’t Alicia Keys, Persia White, Leila Arcieri, Mariah Carey, Jennifer Beals and Blu Cantrell get more love? With the exception of Jennifer Beals, I’ve only seen black men drool over the others. I hear loads of white and black men singing the praises of Halle, Rihanna and Samantha Mumba, all who look just black to me. Alicia’s thick and Mariah is as of late. Leila, Persia, Jennifer and Blu all have bodies that meet both white and black standards of beauty. Not thick but not skinny either. Curves no more than Halle’s or Rihanna’s.
It may depend on geography and meaningful exposure to black people. I do think that a white man on the street in Ohio would say Whitney’s pretty for a black girl. I live on the coast though so I’ve seen loads of white and Asian men drool over black women.
All have pretty faces. Halle and Rihanna definitely have great curves. Alicia and Mariah
I’ve yet to find a white man who has the hots for Mariah.
Thu 7 Feb 2008 at 12:37:08
That is interesting – the comparative droolworthiness of biracial women to black men and white men.
Wed 19 Mar 2008 at 14:39:45
As a handsome,54-year-old black Canadian lad,I’ll say that The Spice Girls’ Mel B. has the best body I’ve seen on a black lass!!!!!!
Wed 19 Mar 2008 at 22:37:05
Whenever the Spice Girls were on television back in the 1990s I tried not to look, so I do not know much about Mel B. I will check her out. Thanks.
Sun 23 Mar 2008 at 10:01:55
When a truly beautiful black woman walks by EVERY man will look at her. You watch too much TV, and you have a very warped view of the world.
Sun 23 Mar 2008 at 15:17:05
That is simply not true, not in New York at least.
Sun 27 Apr 2008 at 22:36:48
You can’t look at the runway and fashion magazines and think that what white men want in a women. Lets get real, regardless of race here in America most men want a women with nice boobs, visible hips and a decent butt, BUT a thin tummy and everything else. How many women you see in music videos and black mens magazine are truly “full-figure” like how Torcarra was before she lost the weight.
Mon 28 Apr 2008 at 08:44:25
I used to think that fashion model beauty was just for women, not for straight men. But, as it turns out, it has had a huge effect on what white men like in women over the last 30 years. Sure, they like women who are thicker than runway, but it is still way thinner than what they liked in the 1960s.
That is not just my wild opinion. I can prove it: look at the measurements of Playboy Playmates from 1960 to the present. It has got thinner and thinner.
Thu 15 May 2008 at 19:55:18
Very interesting site and very good topic.
You are absoulutely right : The perception of beauty really IS influenced by racism.
I have always found it quite strange, that
most black women who are judged as “beautiful” by the white media are women with white features.
Like for example light skin, narrow nose, relaxed hair etc.
As I am living in Germany, a country where the white population is building the vast majority, I know what I am talking about.
Fri 16 May 2008 at 00:20:12
Here are the black women that English-speaking white people think are the most beautiful:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/03/03/the-most-beautiful-black-women-according-to-white-people/
Sun 18 May 2008 at 09:40:34
Came upon this website by accident and found the thoughts of some of the posters good reading. First, for full disclosure purposes, I am a white male. I am married to a Hispanic woman that tends to the darker side in skin color and characteristics (i.e. very full lips, flatter nose). So my view might be a bit biased cause I have liked darker featured women just as much as lighter featured women.
I agree with most of the posters sentiments that the media’s version of what the top rung of the ladder for beauty is. It is the blond hair, thin Caucasian woman. It’s obvious and almost irritatingly obvious. However, where I diverge with many posters is comments like “cause whites occupy the white house” that “black woman are admired for their white traits”. The MEDIA might do this, the average white male does not in my experience. The media is skewing the reality. They have a stake in the whole racial thing (among other things) because if people instantly judge when they see someone (by race and other things), it makes focusing a product on a target audience simple. But who determines what is beauty in modeling? The masses of average white males? LOL, not by a million miles. Who is it that determines beauty in advertising? Again, not the majority of white males and not by a long shot. I would bet my house that if the average white male was in charge of hiring the models for fashion and advertising, things would be distinctly different (which is not to say they are qualified for what would sell clothes or products, they aren’t. But there tastes would be different from what is the norm right now, guaranteed).
As far as white men and their like for thinness? Their is some truth to it, no doubt. Keyword is SOME. It has been my experience that how a girl wears her weight matters A LOT. How smooth/non edgy a woman’s curves are matters A LOT. I have had tons of friends who are average white guys. What I say here is just my experience. Do NOT believe, because you see it all over TV, it is representative of what the masses of white guys like. The same media engine will steam roll over white guys which I think they have already to a small extent. But I think they have steam rolled black women to a great extent. To me it’s obvious. And when I say steam roll, it is not so much about the looks for black women (as I see it). Black women have the traits they have and they can be quite appreciated by males in general if the skewing was not there. It is attitude! The purveying view of the average white man (and other men too), I’d bet in large part inculcated by the media’s images, is that black women are not demure but combative. They are not warm but filled with attitude. Men do not like that. I was watching this comedy based show the other night, a late night repeat (not much of tv show watcher). This black dude and white dude are best friends is the premise of the show. they go to this bar that is entirely black. The white dude starts talking to this black girl. This girl is very dark skinned and has all the features an african woman might have (she was not pin thin, she was moderately slender). She was warm and funny and easy going. That girl with all her african features would have white guys drooling over her (which is not to say she would want that per se, but she would nevertheless). It was a clear example of, imho, what I speak of above.
Personally, I think BW should be careful how they spend their money. Do not support “things” that perpetuate the BW “attitude”. BW shown as sweet and silly and funny and warm etc etc etc, IMHO, would be the best thing that could happen for BW in terms of media image.
The last thing I will say on this is, I have never dated a black woman (of african descent). I have dated many white, several hispanic and a couple of asian girls (I live in California, lots of these type of women live here in the bay area). I think, though I could not show hard proof of this, that in large part it is the media skewing that I never approached a BW. The media has everyone thinking every category of girl and person are something specific (again, this helps them to sell). When I became aware of this, kind of a big wake up, all of a sudden BW were catching my eye more. I came to find out that I, and suspect most everyone, tend to see someone’s traits, like their race, and you already have an image in your head as to what they will be like in a split second. It’s such a crock. Also, just to be fair, the other reason about not approaching a BW is that I assumed I am not going to act “macho” enough. I ain’t no wall flower but I prefer to be easy going if at all possible. As far as whether that is a true belief that BW have, I don’t know, I’m just giving you my sense of it.
Good Luck!
Tue 20 May 2008 at 23:16:27
Just be yourself and be honest. That is what women of any colour want.
Just as there are all sorts of white women, so there are all sorts of black women. You will have no idea which ones will like you till you try.
Screw Hollywood and all that. Go for the women you deep down like. Do not assume how they are going to be – combative or whatever – till you get to know them.
Tue 20 May 2008 at 23:29:00
I once thought all men, white men too, liked thick women. I thought only women and gay men liked thin women, that no true man would go for them. But I later found out that most white men like thin women. By “thin” I mean most of the women with a waist-to-hip ratio (WHR) of 0.65 or more.
For more on this, see my post on WHR:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/01/01/whr-waist-to-hip-ratio/
Tue 27 May 2008 at 10:02:21
Abagond, you know I agree with you about hollywood/MSM. Screw them! Their ONLY concern is selling something, generally nothing else. But, sadly, they do skew reality for most everyone, and it affects you, me and everyone on how they perceive people. People see images in the media over and over and over and over. There just is no way that can’t affect people’s perceptions. People absorb what they see, what they hear. And it does affect their perceptions. What to do about it? Don’t know that one other than I wish people would turn off the TV more, and be a bit contrarian in their thoughts. Maybe question conventional wisdom more (or question it at all for starters).
I agree with the “be yourself” too. Chris Rock has a great comedy routine about “when you first go out with someone, you aren’t dating them, you are dating their representative”. Personally I think that is why so many relationships become BS. You fall in love with someone in the first 6 months to a year. Then comfort sets in and the real person comes out after that, and you find out your not right for each other (but because of the time invested and emotional attachment, people keep trying to make it work. Usually not a good thing).
Regarding the thin issue preference of white men, I kind of wish I could say it is totally untrue; my experience is it isn’t. However, my experience also tells me it is no where near totally true either. How a woman wears her weight matters a lot when it comes to what is perceived attractive. Lots of my white friends have dated Latina women (I live in Cali), and some of these women have what would not be considered “thin” looks. Looking at the picture above, I would say that Brianna wears her weight very well! (nice smooth curves). But I go back to the media thing in two parts. First, the thin woman (most often a white woman, most often blond {and not that way by my choice})is always the prize. Those images become reality in the mind of the masses (Marilyn Monroe, not thin, was once white guys perceived “prize”).
Second, look at the Brianna and Paris pictures. What is your gut reaction to the persona/disposition of these two? Not saying the well thought out answer, I’m asking the gut reaction. My guess would be overwhelmingly most would say Paris is demure/girly in her “ways”, and first impression is Brianna has attitude. Now, I don’t know either of them, so Brianna might be the more demure and girly of the two. But I think what is portrayed in the media makes most think “she is a black woman, she must have that attitude” (at least in part). Attitude is going to be somewhat of a turn off to a lot of guys, not just white. I don’t mean to hurt anyone’s feelings over this. I could be wrong. Nobody is perfect and that definitely includes me. But put another way, what if the average white guy’s visual and audio experience of black women is more often than not seen on TV (he may have some interaction, friends, whatever, but he sees just as much if not more on TV), think that is not going to affect his view? And for that matter, the masses of people whatever color/race they are?
You say “go for the women you like deep down”. I don’t necessarily agree with that. Me and my wife are a good example. I was not her type. We were very good friends, hung out somewhat regularly. We were definitely “playful” in conversation to an extent but she adamantly only dated Latino men. I broke her down over time (I tend to have a yappy persuasiveness to me, or so I have been told). And while I found her very visually appealing, she also was not what would be considered the norm for me in some ways. And while I never thought we would end up getting married (our former coworkers jaws dropped to the ground when they found out we were going out together in a serious relationship), it happened. I think the lesson out of that is, perceptions of what one “thinks” works for them may not be etched in stone. And what will ultimately click for you is not necessarily what you think will click for you. Someone who stays on one path without ever taking a chance with something not familiar? makes me think that person might be missing out on something they had no idea would work well for them. Hey, it might work out and it might not. But one will never know if they don’t take a few chances. What’s the worst that can happen? You’ll find out it wasn’t a path for you.
Lastly, what women of color want? I have no personal romantic experience with black women but I do have with non black women of color. Surprise! At the core of it and IN GENERAL (not every case, white or color), those women wanted to be loved and feel like they were wanted and special on some level, some fun, some security/stability, a strong steady shoulder to lean on when things were getting a little overwhelming, someone they can rely on when life heaps on the BS, and some affection was ALWAYS appreciated. That wasn’t any different than the white girls, in general, I dated either. I’m going to go wwwwaaaaayyyyy out on a limb and say black women want the same? (sarcasm intended).
Wed 28 May 2008 at 12:07:28
Yeah, I think they want the same thing too. Wait, that was a rhetorical question, right?
Wed 28 May 2008 at 12:08:03
Yes, seeing those images on television over and over and over again does have an effect. That is just how advertising works.
Wed 28 May 2008 at 12:10:28
White male commenters can correct me if I am wrong, but I cannot see many white men going for Brianna (the black girl at the top of this post) on a serious level – to love and marry as opposed to just sex.
Fri 30 May 2008 at 16:58:03
Hmm…I’m neither male or black, but I certainly HAVE witnessed white men with women like her. I’ve witnessed white men with extremely dark women whom they doted on. It didn’t seem to be about sex at all.
While Brianna might not be the ideal partner in terms of looks for most white men, there are definitely those who would love and cherish her. Not all white men hold black women in contempt. Beauty is subjective. She has a wonderful curvy shape and beautiful skin…I don’t find her facial features to be all that pleasant, however. She isn’t pretty in the least (in my opinion) but she does have other physical traits that make her an attractive woman. No offense to anyone. That is my honest opinion.
There are white men who only want women of their own race in a sexual sense as opposed to love and marriage. Most white men, from what I’ve noticed, probably would not want to be with her sexually or otherwise because it is still a problem in American society. Interracial relationships are frowned at. What about black men who would only want to have sex with her? After all, she is built the way most black men love. It would not be unheard of if some black men decided to “hit it” and then never deal with her again.
Preferences and social conditioning come into play as well. Many white men who are open-minded and not bigoted will admit that they simply aren’t attracted to black women. I see no racism in this. Conversely, there are black women who don’t find white men attactive either. It goes both ways. I’m a biracial woman who appears white. There are men of different races who think I’m gorgeous and there are some who do not. It depends on who is looking at me, what their preferences are, and how they were socialized to be.
I’ve learned to not be offended. My white husband is convinced that I’m the most beautiful woman in the world…it doesn’t get better than that. Before me, he had never been with a woman of color. Well, that isn’t entirely true. His ex-fiance was Chilean (Hispanic) and he admitted that the only woman of color he’d ever thought pretty in his youth was Vanessa Williams. Now at 38, he has revised his perspective. He has learned to be a bit more accepting of other types of beauty.
Sat 31 May 2008 at 09:50:43
LOL, Abagond, thanks for catching the sarcastic and rhetorical nature of the question.
I agree with you in that I don’t see most white males going for Brianna (but certainly not all white men). Honestly, I don’t see many non black males going for Brianna (just my hunch based on some observations/experiences with friends, my Hispanic in laws and my brother’s Asian in laws). But isn’t it the socially conditioned thing? It can’t be an “attractiveness” issue, can it? I know I am being a bit too repetitious on that point but it has to be the conditioned thing. If one steps back, forget the black-white thing, forget models chosen to represent what “beauty” is, totally forget all of that. It seems to me not logical that lots of males wouldn’t look at Brianna’s pic and feel some sort of level of attraction. regardless of her not being “thin, she does have an attractive face, smooth curves/hourglass thing, feminine look/appearance. Those are the normal trigger for some level of attraction. But I tend to think in a white male’s mind (maybe different with the younger generation, I was born in the very late 60’s), the thought of “date or marry” a black woman? It just is not supposed to be done. Something is wrong with it (oh no! the dreaded, “they” say I am not supposed to do it cause it is wrong). You don’t, very often, see it on Tv, on the “street” (more so lately I have noticed though it does seem it is only “think” black women), in the movies, in commercials (granted you see lots of back male/white female couples, but that, I believe, is a different dynamic than the black female issue). Further, I know for myself in a gathering of guys (and that might be in a group of white guys, or being in a group of guys that may include black guys etc etc….. even in a gathering where there are girls), there is an inner voice that says I am not ’supposed’ to say “damn, you seen that picture of that girl Brianna, she does it for me”. I suspect I would get a surprised or even an astonished look (or the like). I suspect an impression of me would form in their minds that says I have some kind outlandish fetish for black women.
On a personal note, I would go for her if we clicked. I think she is attractive. But in a bit of irony to this topic, I am 5′10″ and 170lbs. LOL, I am probably too skinny for her.
One other note, thinking back to high school when I first became seriously aware of the male-female thing, I think back and remember this. Black women were the only ones I saw “with” their own race/ethnicity. Whites, Hispanics, Asians and Black men, it was not way out of the ordinary to see them “with” someone not of their race/ethnicity. And my high school in California had more than a few of just about every type of human on the planet. Was that just my observation and not the norm or is that others observations too? And the reason I bring up the high school thing is because so much is cemented in the mind at that time of life. I am wondering if seeing that etches in the mind of the average male that black women only go out with black men/don’t go for other guys? And maybe that might cause the average male mind to not often entertain the idea, maybe even not at all.
Sat 31 May 2008 at 10:31:07
Hello World, you commented “not all white men hold black women in contempt”. I hope that comment was not directed at me (not saying it was, just hoping it wasn’t). I know I posted before about the media’s stereotypical portrayal of the black woman’s attitude. I don’t personally buy into it (and that is from personal experience having met plenty of black women of sweet disposition to know that it is unfair to call it the norm). However, I think it is believed, to an extent, because of what is shown in the media (at least in significant part). And I don’t know if I would refer to it as “contempt”. It’s more, imho, just a general male function that “attitude” is not a trigger of attraction. It’s not an attribute of femininity. I suspect it is a function, too, that occurs on the subconscious level.
I don’t see/experience any widespread outward “contempt” from white guys toward black women. Not from friends, family, coworkers whatever. However, you will hear comments, however, about the “attitude”. I just wonder where they learned that this “attitude” is something that defines black women? Experience or inculcated from media? So I believe changing this portrayal in the media would be the best thing for black women (media wise).
And I agree with you about interracial relationships being frowned on, however, I have noticed it is soooo much more true of the black-white thing. My wife appears relatively semi dark, and has features that are not “white”. I think it is possible one could look at her and think she might be the daughter of a black and white couple (but it is not overt by any stretch). She has gotten a few “Are you from somewhere in the carribean” as pick up lines. And to be honest, I don’t know that we have ever encountered any IR angst except 1 time (and that time was maybe the explanation for it, not a certainty). I don’t notice looks on the street. Living near San Francisco (not that I don’t see it all over the Bay Area but SF is a mecca for it), when I am there I see a lot of IR couples. And it is my observation that black-white get the stares. You see lots of Asian /White couples and I just don’t see people noticing. Hispanic/White, again I don’t notice it. Has that been your observation too?
Yeah, in my youth Vanessa Willims might have been the only woman of color I remember liking (can’t quite remember any others). In a moment of full male candor, the pictures didn’t hurt her in the attractive department. But, again, I think that is based in part on there wasn’t much in the way of TV, Movies, media. If you don’t see a particular group portrayed as “sexy” in the visual media (that we all see sooooo much of), how can it not have a significant affect?
Sun 1 Jun 2008 at 04:12:33
Both Hello World and TW:
Thank you both for your interesting observations. Many of your comments touch on another post, one I did just the other day about the kind of black women that white men prefer:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/05/28/black-women-that-white-men-like/
Sun 1 Jun 2008 at 04:32:37
I think there are white men who could love and marry Brianna, but they would be very rare, far more rare than black men.
Tue 17 Jun 2008 at 02:34:56
Fascinating stuff!
Some observations:
=”Biracial”
I agree with GorgeousBlackWoman, Halle Berry is a black woman and there’s many black women who resemble her in a way who DON’T have a “white” parent, ditto with most of the other “biracial” starlets.
Also, the identity of Keyshia Cole’s father has never been revealed so assuming or going along with an internet tidbit isn’t the best thing to do …gotta get confirmation. I doubt that her father wasn’t black, personally.
Faith and many of the other “biracial” starlets never advertised the fact that they came from an interracial union. Faith never knew her father. She was rasied by her black grandmother in Newark, NJ. Like most of the other interracial marriage girls, I had no clue that one of her parents was white. That face doesn’t make her any less of a sista.
I also agree with GBM, if “biracial” was in, then many more of these starlets should get love. But most don’t and most are seen as black women, because they are. Not “mixed”.
=White men
I agree, thanks to the very painful and complex history that white men and black women have in this country, their attraction to one another is packed with lots of unconscious and conscious distrust, disdain and a weird sense of curiosity.
I do believe that as a whole, white men have more interest in black women, then vice versa. They just don’t neccessarily express it.
What the media deems beautiful in black women is not represenative of real life taste. Most of the white men who go for black women tend to go for natural types or sophisticated sexy glam girls (think a Gabrielle Union or Kerry Washington) or “exotic” pure African women. I believe the white men who have an aversion to black women, deeply rooted prejudices or a general disintrest in sistas, would be thw ones who prefer a more Europeanized black woman (i.e. those white men mentioned above finding Vanessa Williams “attractive” but not the general black woman). That’s pathethic but very understandble.
=Nigerian Nef
What a beautiful strong woman, you seem. Your description of yourself makes you seem like a catch. Confidence along with physical traits makes a beautiful woman even more beautiful.
=Interracial reactions
True. A black/white couple will face more disapproval. Thanks to the history of blacks and whites in this country. Most interracial couples (married or unmarried) in this country are comprised of whites and non-black minorities. That’s says a lot.
Also, like most, the white male poster above keeps confusing “Hispanic” for a race. Hispanic/Latino is a demographic term. If a white Angelo woman were to marry an Argentine (who are usually of European stock), that’s a uniracial marriage IMO. Just intercultural. Now, if said white Anglo woman were to marry a black Dominican man, that IS an interracial marriage. As well as intercultural. Although both of those hypothethical guys would be lumped under the “Latino/Hispanic” umbrella in the States.
America and it’s crazy racial categories.
Wed 23 Jul 2008 at 15:10:43
I think that it is unfair to put the perpetuation of racist beauty standards all on White people. I have spent the last 3 years travelling in Asia, Latin America, and the Carribean, and I was also around a lot of Africans and Europeans during my travel. I have found that many whites have a better appreciation for non-white beauty than many of the non-whites that I know.
I think we really need to talk more in terms of white supremacist thinking as opposed to talking about whether white people are racists od not. I happen to be a black woman from the US and many of the middle class men or above that I know prefer white women-not just because they are thinner-but because they are everything that encompasses white womanhood which is considered a more valuable possession than black womanhood. They are worse than whites as far as I am concerned. I know because unfortunately I have been around many and my brother is one.
Also, the internalized racism in Latinamerica that I’ve seen is sad and disgusting. They are not white, but they seemingly would love to be, and they generally support the notion of white supremacy wholeheartedly and without shame, from black to brown to tan.
Colorism and beauty-the concept of the whiter the better- amongst most black people is supporting the concept of white supremacy as well. All you have to do is turn on the videos and see just how much we love the whiter section of our women.
When I was in China, they were just absolutely bedazzled by the thought of whiteness amongst themselves or even better in actual White people. If you look at models on advertisements there, they shamelessly use lots of whites.
It is also conneceted with the concept of development and what people consider to represent that in developing countries. They seem to just associate wealth with wetern whites; and also beauty with white, often times blatantly rejecting themselves.
I think that there are people who don’t buy into it (which are in the minority) and there are others who do (the majority) whether they are black or white, or brown or yellow. We are ALL responsible for making the conscious DECISION to believe the hype or not.
Wed 23 Jul 2008 at 16:20:22
I was in Indonesia and I saw the same thing: the pretty women on magazine covers were much whiter than the women in the streets: very light skin and big round eyes. They were as close to being white as you could get while still remaining believably Indonesian.
Wed 6 Aug 2008 at 00:02:58
it’s true, asians really do love thin girls.
they find thin girls with long black hair, round big eyes, and super pale white skin really attractive.
despite being a quarter russian, i’m basically the epitome of what asians DON’T want. i have almond shaped eyes, “tanned” medium skin, naturally light brown hair, a pretty pronounced nose structure, and for a 5′ frame, i weigh about 105 pounds with a BMI of 20.5 and waist-to-hip ratio of .71
growing up in an asian home completely took away my confidence. my parents always called me fat and i always hated the fact that i wasn’t as pale as someone like gwen stefani. at times i always wished i had big, round eyes instead of almond shaped eyes. to be honest, i also hated my curves. i wanted a smaller hip and a smaller chest.
nowadays, i don’t find asians attractive AT ALL…..like you i’d rather go for fuller women who aren’t stick skinny. Not only that, i think im beginning to love the way i look wayy more.
Wed 6 Aug 2008 at 12:29:06
I am glad. You do not have to be pale-skinned or thin to be beautiful.
Sat 9 Aug 2008 at 01:03:49
Yes, Stephanie Jackson, the whole “whiter the more beautiful” mentality has taken over the whole world. What can I say? White supremacy is all encompassing.
Music videos are not represenative of what blacks or anyone else in the real world
finds attractive as a whole. Instead, it shows what that specific casting director thinks will sell. Since most black women aren’t light skinned with long straight hair, I wonder if this “love” you describe is overstated.
Light skinned black women …not too prevelent in today’s music videos. Racially ambigious and Latin American types are. It’s a blantant crossover tatic.
And why would anyone want a black woman in a music video shacking her ass and objectfying herself?!?! If they did put extremely dark skinned black women in this videos (some actually have), then people would start complaining about our women being “demeaned”. When they put amigious looking women instead, they complain about obviously black women not being represented.
Make up your minds!!!!
I don’t want beautiful black women in rap videos at all. Sadly, after watching a few videos a few days ago, there are a few beautiful non-light skinned black women being glorified in some of the videos. I was hoping that they wouldn’t be there but yeah, they are. Getting “whored” out there as well. Sad.
Sun 17 Aug 2008 at 11:42:19
To mix and match from some of the posts…..
>>the whole “whiter the more beautiful” mentality has taken over the whole world. What can I say? White supremacy is all encompassing.<>Also, like most, the white male poster above keeps confusing “Hispanic” for a race. Hispanic/Latino is a demographic term.<<
Thanks for pointing this out, however, I am aware of this. My wife is not white in appearance and likely has only smallish amounts of European genes. So I can get wordy in trying to convey that (she is likely some mix of South American Indian and far Western European), or I can just use the term “Hispanic” when describing her race.
<>
That statement is as true as true can be. And while the outside matters, the over used and very under appreciated phrase “what’s inside counts” should always be part of beauty’s whole package.
<>
In all fairness, 2 out of every 3 people in the United States are white. From a stand point of sheer numbers, it is logical that most IR couples would be comprised of a white and a non white.
>>growing up in an asian home completely took away my confidence. my parents always called me fat <>i’m basically the epitome of what asians DON’T want. i have almond shaped eyes, “tanned” medium skin, naturally light brown hair, a pretty pronounced nose structure, and for a 5′ frame, i weigh about 105 pounds<<
I can only speak with some certainty for where I live (the Bay Area, California), but my observation from around here is; what you describe yourself as is representative of what appears to be sought after in a general sense.
<>
Excellent observation. The crossover tactic, you speak of, used by the media powers is blatant, but only a small amount of people notice. And in the larger context, the manipulation by the media takes place in other forms and in many areas. IMHO, this works, in part, due to so many people’s lack of critical thinking. When I became more aware of it and how extensive it is, I see it as comical.
>>Music videos are not represenative of what blacks or anyone else in the real world
finds attractive as a whole. Instead, it shows what that specific casting director thinks will sell.<>I think that there are people who don’t buy into it (which are in the minority) and there are others who do (the majority) whether they are black or white, or brown or yellow. We are ALL responsible for making the conscious DECISION to believe the hype or not.<>True. A black/white couple will face more disapproval. Thanks to the history of blacks and whites in this country. Most interracial couples (married or unmarried) in this country are comprised of whites and non-black minorities. That’s says a lot.<>I do believe that as a whole, white men have more interest in black women, then vice versa. They just don’t neccessarily express it.<<
Men like women. My experience is the average man likes women of any color. Your belief that white men like black women more so than vice versa could be true. I don’t really know, but your correct it is not an expressed preference. But it has been my experience that women tend to put more into race when choosing who they “like”. This is not to say that there aren’t men who don’t do that (cause there very obviously is). But most of the guys I know, they just like women. If they meet a girl they find attractive, they’ll date her, plain and simple (again, of course the media imagery plays into what triggers what they will find attractive). More so in my experiences, women tend to like . My guess as to why that is? I find that attraction in women is triggered by a man’s “image” that he projects (a lot more than what a woman’s image does for a man). For men it leans a lot more to sheer physical appeal (again, this is in general). And, for better or worse – much worse, race projects an image. And one of the reasons that is true goes back to my thought regarding people’s lack of critical thinking. Because it is crazy to think that if someone is , that someone might act or think or etc different than what people think they would! Even more crazy is, they might have a good level of uniqueness to them. Noooooo, that couldn’t be true, could it???
Sun 17 Aug 2008 at 12:33:23
TW,
I don’t know if you’ll even see this message but I find your observations valuable. As I do anyone elses.
However, I disagree with your reasoning behind the disportionate number of white/non-black IR couples.
You’re correct, “non-Hispanic” whites, are the majority of this country. 66% at last count, to be exact. Asians, on the other hand, make up a mere 4% of the US population. Blacks, on the other hand, make up a more sizable 13%. The marriage and dating rate among whites and Asians (as well as other minorities) is rather high in constract to blacks. That smaller minorities have a higher rate of IR marriage/dating patterns with whites (and overall) than blacks (who are a larger minority) suggests something very striking.
It suggests a reason that goes further than just “numbers”. Just my take, based on stats.
I agree with you though about the media powers. Not everyone notices or cares about the “messages”, subtle or blatant, real or perceived. Yet there are many- who like you pointed out- lack critical thinking skills and believe in the manufactured hype. Those are the ones you have to “look out for”.
And yeah, studies (how realiable, are they though?) have suggested that women rank race as a higher attribute when it comes to suitors than men. I agree, at the end of the day, men just like women. It’s not always political. Yet, in many cases, it can be.
Mon 18 Aug 2008 at 17:20:25
It does suggest something very striking: that whites are more racist against blacks than against Asians. About ten times more if you go by the IR numbers and weight them against the fact that there are so many more black women than Asian women.
Mon 25 Aug 2008 at 07:04:02
Wow, my post somehow came out butchered. I was pasting quotes from other posts then writing below each quote. For some reason (operator error I am sure) the quoted parts I was responding to, they didn’t show up on my post. My apologies for coming across as incoherent and all over the place. However, reading your two responses, you seemed to have gotten the gist of my sentiments.
Abagond:
I can’t say for sure if your thought is correct. Are whites 10 times more likely to be racist against Blacks than Asians? I don’t know. Is who one marries, racially speaking, indicative of who they are racist or not racist against? Again, I don’t know. Allow me to play devil’s advocate, though, by putting forth food for thought (this is going off memory, so please correct any of my errors in numbers). Asian/Black marriages are small (even on a per capita basis, it is still low). Does this mean Blacks are more racist against Asians (and vice versa)? And if other races/ethnicities are not marrying each other at higher numbers, are they more racist against each other than toward whites? Further, if you categorized the numbers by Male/Female, are certain racial genders more racist depending on their racial marriage propensities? And what about those who marry outside of their own race/ethnicity, are they intra racist for doing so? My hunch is that numbers do not specifically equal racial animosity. I admit my hunch could be incorrect, however, I suspect it is far more complicated than that. For instance, I think White Males marry Asian females at a high rate for several reasons. Those reasons easily could not be related to racial animosity, and more to do with the quantity of imagery. Also, I suspect, in part, it has to do with stereotyping. Asian females are stereotyped as more docile and demure. Those characteristics tend to equal femininity in the simplistic/visceral side of the human brain (femininity can greatly trigger attraction in males). Further, I think that this stereotype could also be applied to white females (though to a lesser extent) and, in part, explain black males view of “femininity” in white females. And in a side note/to be perfectly honest, I have these alarms going off in me that I shouldn’t be writing this because it is offensive. I hope what I am saying above is taken in the context of our open discussion, and not something I implicitly believe. I’m just writing what I think/letting it fly, right or wrong. Further, my experience positively says what I wrote above is not a universal truth by any stretch.
Mynameismyname:
On your comment about “studies”? You are correct. Their reliability are questionable at best. So much of it is agenda driven, and there is so much worry about speaking on the subject, the combination of those things makes for revealing the truth (especially the brutal truth) sketchy at best. Again, it is my personal experience alone (that means it is very far from scientific) that showed women putting race forward as more important in who they choose to marry. To be quite honest, in my personal experience it isn’t even close.
I do see your point regarding the numbers of IR marriages, if you are saying White is more represented than their per capita ratio of the population. If those numbers are accurate, I don’t know why the disparity. Could it be simply racism? Absolutely. But I would say that is not my personal experience. But to be fair, my experience is probably skewed from the “norm”. For part of my youth, my step father was Black. My sister was also married to a Black man. Further, my brother and my best friend are married to Asian women. And you know my story, so maybe I am not a good sounding board for conventional “White” thinking.
Regarding looking out most for those lacking critical thinking skills, I agree. The problem is, in my experience, that covers a clear majority of the population.
Finally, yes I am reading this blog regularly, so anything you post I will see. I am one of these “I like to know” people. So I read regularly on the internet to try and see and hear things outside of the contrived main stream media. And this blog is one of the best. Soooo many idiots posting on other blogs. Way too many lash out type mentally handicapped posts. It quickly makes them unreadable often. I stumbled upon this one, and it has been a real good and interesting discussion from top to bottom….
Mon 25 Aug 2008 at 08:21:15
TW: point taken: more goes into IR rates than just racism. But I do think that for black/white IRs it is at least 80% of what is going on:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/06/25/why-so-few-white-men-marry-black-women/
Thu 28 Aug 2008 at 08:56:52
Abagond:
I agree. I think it very likely a fact that Black/White IRs face significantly more disapproval. My previous post was meant more as me paying devil’s advocate and suggesting other possibilities (as food for thought). Further, (I have stated this in previous posts), I can honestly only point to a single time me and my wife felt uncomfortable regarding us not being of the same race. And even that one “situation” has other alternate and plausible explanations. I really did not witness anything noteworthy in the way of disapproval. And We are IR but not Black/White IR.
Why is black/white most disapproved of? I think there are several specifics as to why. The overriding issue is the history and human nature. I’m sure me stating the reason as “history”, well, it is not a profound statement by any stretch. I’ve read other blogs from you and see you are someone who is pretty damn well aware of things. But in my personal view, the “human nature” part seems the bigger hurdle and most troubling. I think we can fast forward 500 years, and people will still categorize people based on race, height, weight, how they dress, how they walk, how educated they sound, how they talk etc etc etc. It goes back to the lack of critical thinking of people(imho). People see 2 or 3 similar examples of a type of person, and instantly extrapolate that to mean “they all must be that way”. Millions of examples yet a handful can define those millions? Sad but true. Further in my experience, this kind of thinking knows no color, race, ethnicity, class, etc etc. Most Everyone seems to do it. I just don’t see how that can change. It just seems too tall of a mountain. So the only pragmatic alternative is to make sure what people are exposed to is positive (about anyone). The problem with that? The media wants to make money! And what they do now makes money. And in my experience, business never changes on their own. Too much risk to the incoming profits, why rock the boat? They only change when they clearly see the incoming profits might be affected. They’ll change then…..
Btw, read your blog tonight (the one where you posted the link). A good discussion. It started getting a bit ugly by some though. I thought some posts were a little pie in the sky too (though well meaning). If I see a good moment to interject something, you might see me post there too.
Thu 28 Aug 2008 at 12:22:31
What you say is true, but it does not go far enough. Racism in America is rooted in its slave past. And even though whites do not think of themselves as “white”, they do have a white identity and too much of it is rooted in racism. The same is true for blacks too, but maybe not in the way you expect.
I have quite a few posts on white people and their racism. Be warned that they might upset you. Start here if you have not seen them before:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/08/06/2008/07/05/white-people/
Fri 29 Aug 2008 at 08:22:54
No Worries Abagond. These are your blogs. This is your forum for you to express what you think. I am good with that, and have liked this a lot. Further, I am not easily offended. I just am not interested in reading posts that are angry. Angry posts almost always are emotional. Emotions heavily tend to cloud good thinking. Further the angry posts just don’t make a good contribution to the on going thought process, and tend to just cause more of those posts. If someone says “I don’t like white (or whatever) people. That is just how I feel”. I am actually fine with that. Kinda sad for them, but at least it is a viewpoint expressed rationally. The “I hate you. I hate you. You are gross and etc etc”. I’m just not interested in that. Not offended, just think it is a waste of my time. That kind of stuff is pure negative energy. Each person has only so much energy in them. Expenditure of the negative is just using up what otherwise could have been used positively.
To be honest, this last post of yours sounded angry. If something I said upset you, that was not my intention. I am just expressing my thoughts honestly. I assure you my intentions have been to make positive contribution to the on going thought process of this blog.
“white people don’t think of themselves as white”. I agree with that. Most of the white people I know do not identify themselves as white. Just as an fyi, I do. I am proud to be white. And if I was something else, I would be proud to be that. Taking pride in what one is, it is a good thing for you and others, all others (IMHO). But it is good ONLY when that pride takes a positive form. If one has to put down or shame another, for no reason, to have pride, that ain’t pride. That is just a fleeting and self defeating attempt at smoothing their own fears of insecurity. But having positive pride in one’s self is what helps one have love for their own self. And when you run into someone, no matter what color he or she is, who love’s their own self, they almost always are someone who is a good person to be friends with/ to have around.
Regarding white people’s identity rooted in racism. I’d like to hear why that is? I’d like to give it some thought. Btw, I have read plenty of your other thoughts on your other blogs. I was not offended by any that I recall. I agreed with some, I didn’t agree with some others.
I’d also like to hear your thoughts, you mentioned, about the reason behind black peoples rooting in racism. I wonder why you think I wouldn’t expect what the answer is. I tend to think I am kinda smart…;-)
I’d like to end on this note. Racism, in my opinion, is rooted simply in two things. Fear of the unknown and insecurity. All humans have those tendencies. You think when one lashes out at another because of their race, how they look, how they talk, how attractive or not attractive they are, what they weigh, how smart they are etc etc, you think that is not based upon their own insecurity fears? The world is filled, top to bottom, everywhere, with people who are insecure. We have been talking about white women being held up as the most beautiful. I have dated many white women. Their insecurities are so big, it’s astonishing. EVERYONE fears they aren’t as good as they should be, or when compared to someone else. Everyone. Becoming comfortable in one’s own body is the cure. But it ain’t easy to do that. It’s an on going process for me. So I hope my words have been a positive thing for you to read. What I have read from you has been good. I thank you for that. You seem real cool. And I hope you don’t get mired in the anger on this subject, no matter how unfair the subject might seem. I promise you Abagond, if you get mired in the anger, you will be doing yourself a big big disservice.
Sat 13 Sep 2008 at 19:50:48
Stephanie B. Says:
Mon 15 Oct 2007 at 22:14:28
“Both Faith and Keyshia have white Italian fathers which accounts for their thick features and voluptuous bodies which a lot of men find appealing but shunned by white and Asian men as “too fat” and “ugly.” I consider the two ladies as beautiful women with womanly bodies. It’s too bad that mainstream media shuns them as not being thin enough. Faith Evans have beautiful broad nose and thick sensuous lips that please any man as well.”
Stephanie B,
I am white and I think Faith Evans’ and Keyshia Cole’s features are very sexy. I am not the only white man who is attracted to women with African features and curvaceous bodies.
Sat 13 Sep 2008 at 22:31:06
Well, actually, Keyshia never confirmed who her father’s identity is, let alone his “race”, so …let’s not jump to unknown conclusions.
Also, in her recently released memoir, Faith says that she’s never seen her father in the flesh. In her words, “I heard something about him being Italian but I’m not sure that’s really true”.
Stephanie B’s comments are a matter of her own personal perception, which she’s very entitled to have.
Sat 20 Sep 2008 at 19:29:56
Faith Evans appears to be light skinned African American woman.
Sat 20 Sep 2008 at 21:26:28
That’s because she is. One of many.
Sun 14 Dec 2008 at 04:29:28
Well Two things
1] It is not impossible for races to have different tastes or ideals of beauty for both males and females. Whether you like it or not, the races have evolved separately for some thousands of years and do cluster separately in genes.
2] However the White and Asian preference for thin women may be recent. If you check out earlier portraits of Europeans during the Romantic era, most women looked full. This preference can be recent. Have you noticed how much White men find African women from the horn (Iman Bowie) attractive?
Sun 14 Dec 2008 at 05:21:26
Well, for what it’s worth, Iman is not the first black woman that Bowie’s been romantically involved with. One of them, Ava Cherry, was a former background singer. She did not look like a Horner. So there goes that theory.
Bringing up celebs to back a social claim is silly. Everyone has a different take on race and how they relate (or don’t relate it) to beauty.
Sun 14 Dec 2008 at 21:15:54
i like the article but why put skinny women down as if we’re not attractive? i’m sorry but i’m not gonna feel bad because of the way i look or other women look. we can sit up here and blame the media for calling curvy women fat because they look at it as being unhealthy but y’all do the same thing when it comes to skinny women. there are a lot of skinny women that do have curves and just because you have curves doesn’t mean it represents beauty. i understand that you like thick women but don’t put skinny women down because we don’t live up to your standards as being beautiful. to me beauty is all about being confident and proud of who you are. i’m not all for the boney look when i see it in magazines and on runways but not all women look like that. not every women wants to have their bones sticking out of their bodies. i’m skinny but i have curves as well and i’m proud of my body and shouldn’t have to feel ashamed about it because i don’t have thick hips and a fat ass. i have nothing against it but to me that’s not the only thing that represents beauty. hollywood brainwash people into thinking that women must look that way and many get sucked into that and now many people want to praise curvy women and put skinny women down as being too skinny or not attractive enough. what we need to do is stop putting women down because of their body shapes and start uplifting them and i mean all shapes and sizes.
Mon 15 Dec 2008 at 05:13:54
If I put down thin women it was not what I intended. Thin women can be beautiful too, even to someone like me. The trouble is not with thin women but with those in Hollywood and the fashion industry who push thin as the only kind of beautiful.
Mon 15 Dec 2008 at 05:16:27
Barbarian & mynameismyname:
Granted, David Bowie is not a statistically significant sampling of the white male population. But even he can disprove statements like “white men do not like black women” since some, like Mr Bowie, clearly do – and not just as sex objects but as women to love and marry.
I think most white men might be hardwired to like women with pale skin. That would make sense from the point of view of evolution. But if true, that would mean there will also be some white men who are hardwired to like darker women since genes naturally vary.
I do not think they are hardwired to like thin women: you do not even have to go back to the Romantic painters to know that: just look at the Hollywood films or Playboy magazines of the early 1960s, in the days before Twiggy. Back then Sophia Loren, Raquel Welch, Elizabeth Taylor and Brigitte Bardot were great white beauties, all with nice hourglass figures.
Thin as beautiful is something that came from the fashion industry, because it is easier to design clothes for thin women.
Mon 15 Dec 2008 at 14:50:59
abagond i agree but that’s hollywood. they’re the one who push skinny women as being the ideal beauty not skinny women. they brainwash people thinking you must look that way in order to be beautiful. yes i think it’s wrong that they do that but no one should have to put thin women down just to uplift thicker women. i’m so sick of all the bashing against skinny women as if it’s wrong. we can blame hollywood all we want but they’re the ones that gonna keep pushing that women must be a size 2 or 0 in order to be beautiful. that’s why i don’t pay attention to that crap anymore because all it does is bring women down and make them feel bad about their bodies.
Tue 16 Dec 2008 at 12:23:39
I mean to bash Hollywood and the fashion industry, not thin women.
Tue 16 Dec 2008 at 17:35:58
lil – Abagond is not bashing you or thin women. He is supporting a group of women he feels hollywood unfairly dismisses. He is – in fact – one supportive voice – crying against the din of thousands who discriminate against thicker women (not fat women, but women with large booty and hips and breasts).
Additionaly – this is his blog. He makes statements from time to time that I do not entirely agree with. But I know its not a personal attack – its his thoughts on a general population.
I like men with broad shoulders, strong back and arms…i could never be attracted to man man who does have the above. My favorite part of a man is a well developed trapezuis. Does that mean I hate all other men…no – its just what I am attracted to.
Tue 16 Dec 2008 at 17:51:08
Abagond – my husband prefers brianna over paris. He finds paris hilton disgusting. ALways has. He likes Beyounce and other women with a nice backside. And with red hair and blue eyes he is about as white as you can get.
You Said “I notice that when a beautiful black woman walks down the street, the black men will turn to look at her but the white men do not seem to notice her. Strange: they are still men, right?”
my husband notices. Before marring me he dated several black women. He says he doesnt discriminate…White Girls – Black girls, Asian girls…as long as they have a nicely shaped backside.
Tue 16 Dec 2008 at 18:03:10
i don’t think he is bashing thin women but i get tired of people putting skinny girls down because we don’t have the curvy shape. i can understand where he’s coming from and yes i’m tired of hollywood always glamorizing these women have bones sticking out of their bodies and that’s nasty. but not ALL skinny women look like that so that’s where i was going but never said it. not all women want to look like that, neither did i and i also said this when he wrote about thick black women. hollywood in my opinion doesn’t show the healthy image of skinny women because we’re looked at as being unattractive, boney, and sick looking. why can’t hollywood show women that’s skinny but don’t have to starve themselves in order to be beautiful.
Tue 16 Dec 2008 at 20:43:22
Lil – I bet you are a stunner. I bet you dont have bones sticking out…your just naturally thin. Athletic – you have muscle and curves..your just not sterotypical…but beauty comes in all forms.
Regarding why fashion and media likes sickly thin women – honestly – and this may come off really wrong…but its my thought…call it prejudice or politically incorrect if you want…but
IMHO – Fashion is driven by gay men. The women are required to look like boys…anyone see a connection here? I think thats what drives the media image of the stick thin women.
Also – Regarding Abagonds statement about why white men like skinny small women – I think white men working in the cubicle world want small women so that by comparision they look larger…
Ever notice that white men who work with their bodies..white construction workers, midwestern white men etc…dont mind thicker women….so its not all white men.
Its the upper and middle class urban office worker who wants the tiny women…and I think its so they look stronger, bigger and more masculine.
Wed 17 Dec 2008 at 05:14:44
It might be that men who are less built will tend to go for thin women. I did not think about it that way. Interesting.
I think the numbers of gay men in the fashion industry does have an effect, but the simpler and more direct reason is that women without much of a figure are easier to design great-looking clothes for.
Wed 17 Dec 2008 at 19:12:16
thanks davida! yes i am skinny but i don’t have bones sticking out. i have curves as well and i workout at times. maybe the fashion world just like skinny women i guess but no one should put me down because i’m skinny. first off i’m 5′2 and i’m not shaped like the models you see. i’m skinny but have a curvy shaped that most of them don’t have but some guys will say that my ass is not that big or you’re not thick. what does being thick have to do with me? i can’t change hollywood of how they see beauty because they will praise skinny women. but they can also start praising women with curves then it would be full figured women. so you never know what hollywood would do. plus i’ve seen some white men that do date white women with curves so i can’t sit here and say they prefer skinny over thick. vida guerra isn’t thick but she has a curvy shape, a round butt and the same height as me but there will be some guys, some black guys, saying her ass ain’t all that or if she had more booty then she would be worth looking that and to me she looks fine. i’m built like vida but some want to say dumb shit because my ass ain’t big enough for them and that is annoying. a woman should be worth more than just her looks and how thick she is. then some wonder why there are a lot of girls who don’t love their bodies because they don’t have a model’s body type or a hourglass shape. i’m not saying that abagond does that, i’m talking about to some of the guys that want to put women down for their bodies. although i do wish the fashion world give curvier women a chance and stop looking at them as being fat.
Wed 17 Dec 2008 at 22:32:26
Even if most black men like women thicker than you, there are still some who do like thin women. Not all black men (or white men) are the same.
Wed 17 Dec 2008 at 23:58:39
“but the simpler and more direct reason is that women without much of a figure are easier to design great-looking clothes for.’
I think your right – because you notice the clothes and not the woman when they are that thin…which is what they want.
Wed 14 Jan 2009 at 06:16:34
I suppose this is a little late in the game (almost a month later) but I don’t think thin women are some evil personage of hollywood come to life. I think that a naturally thin woman is just as pretty as a naturally thick woman. What I don’t think is pretty is an artificially thin woman. Twiggy ate like a horse, she was thin because her body was made that way and the fashion industry just happened to like it (besides the fact that if a woman is uniformly small, a dress doesn’t have to be altered in order to fit the way the designer saw it in his/her ‘vision’. I.e. The different breast or hip dimensions were probably more problematic than Twiggy’s rectangular frame, and when multiplied, that meant fashion just got a little easier!)
Any how. I’m not a small woman, and I’m also black. I don’t neccessarily think of myself as gorgeous but I do know that I’m striking and that I have a look that (finally) suits me. I do straighten my hair, because my native american roots still show through in my facial structure and I have thick, long hair that looks really good when straightened. That’s just my thing and I shouldn’t have to face any bull from anyone black or white about what I chose to do with it. Same goes for white women. If thin is ok for them, and they don’t have to starve for it, more power to them. If they are a bit more voluptuous, that’s good too. I think they should find a healthy look that enhances their natural beauty. They should also wait for someone who likes that, because eventually, if that relationship is lasting, you won’t look like you used to.
Also, I’ve experienced nearly the opposite of the statistic. Mind you my experience is limited, but… The only guys who have shown a serious interest in me have been white. Of course it took them months and months of knowing me as an acquaintance and then a friend before they could break through the Sapphire-Amazon stereotype and see me as a person. They were both white, and as far as I know they became more open to dating black women because I destroyed that idea for them.
Even still people are scared and intimidated me because I am not a small or thin person. I am naturally large, and I carry my weight in such a way that I look (and some times am) strong and dominating. To tell the truth I am very shy and often that is mistaken for snobbishness or the black girl attitude. Even amongst my friends and non-familial acquaintances, even the slightest note of disagreement or dissent is attributed to that idea of attitude. On the other hand, my white female friends can have a complete and utter fit, cursing and throwing things, and the tantrum is not seen as a normal occurence or a part of their psychological makeup. Later, after these lasses have snagged the fellow, he regrets having fallen for the ‘psycho’, as if he hadn’t seen the tendency when she punched her best friend over some lipstick. It doesn’t really make sense.
On a side note. Recently I’ve noticed a very interesting thing. In the college town I’m in, there are a lot of advertisements that portray a white male with a black female, amongst other white uniracial couples. There are no BM/WW couples advertised as far as I’ve seen, and nothing latin, hispanic, or asian is really even acknowledged, not even uniracially. Adding on to this, the black female portrayed is usually african, and as dark as they come. Any thoughts on this?
Thu 15 Jan 2009 at 00:54:11
That is strange not showing Hispanic or Asian uniracial couples and yet showing a white man with a black woman. White men with Asian women and black men with white women are way more common in practice.
I am not surprised, though, that the black woman was as dark as they come. When white men do go for black women, it seems like they tend towards those who are dark, thin and middle-class – as opposed to those who are near-white, thick or “too ghetto”:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/05/28/black-women-that-white-men-like/
Thu 19 Feb 2009 at 06:57:30
I understand and respect your opinion, but I was a little offended at the end when you said that White people and Asians are brainwashed…
I’m Asian and I’ll admit that I personally would rather be thin, but I don’t think that stick women are pretty. There are many times that I think that someone is much too skinny and needs to gain weight. I think that every person has different standards and preferences as to what makes a woman beautiful. Not all people from one race is the same.
Thu 19 Feb 2009 at 17:34:23
I never said they were brainwashed – just that they seemed that way. I said it was not that simple.
Fri 27 Feb 2009 at 06:25:11
“Its the upper and middle class urban office worker who wants the tiny women…and I think its so they look stronger, bigger and more masculine.”
You made abagond’s day with that one.lol That is untrue. If anything, I’ve noticed that mostly either round, shorter men or very, very thin men tend to like thick women. Those types of me are the ones who always gave me the hardest time about being thin. The football players at my college and guys who are very well built went for thin women.
Wed 18 Mar 2009 at 15:35:04
I never see women like me anywhere in the media – I’m Asian and five feet tall. Nowadays you see several beautiful Asian models like Hye Park(gorgeous, by the way) and Du Juan working the runway but I don’t resemble them, I’m not 5′11 with waist-length black hair and sky high cheekbones. I also don’t resemble anyone else on TV because TV does a terrible job of showing Asian characters.
But oh well, a few guys seemed to have liked me (white and Asian, not any other race……yet!)
and I actually have a taste for men that is sooo different from what the media teaches us, that is, I DON’T like men who are over six feet, I don’t like men who are very muscular. Athletes don’t do much for me. I actually love guys who are just a little “feminine” in the stereotypical sense.
I used to have a girly punk-ish style, and a lot of people didn’t like the way I dressed, and I thought boys didn’t like that either, so I changed – and I recently just met a guy that I found very attractive who said he loved girls who dressed punk. And I felt bad for changing who I was and not waiting around for someone who would appreciate me for who I was.
I guess my point is that somewhere in the world there are not one but several people who find people like you beautiful, although that may not seem like the case from all the stupid media crap you live with every day…
Wed 18 Mar 2009 at 16:52:44
“I once thought all men, white men too, liked thick women. I thought only women and gay men liked thin women, that no true man would go for them. But I later found out that most white men like thin women. By “thin” I mean most of the women with a waist-to-hip ratio (WHR) of 0.65 or more.”
What a silly statement. The only men thin women could attract is gay ones?
Wed 18 Mar 2009 at 17:11:17
A silly thing I once believed. Of course now I know it is not true.
Wed 18 Mar 2009 at 17:13:19
daphne: that is a good example of the long-term cost of not being yourself whatever the short-term gains might be.
Wed 18 Mar 2009 at 22:35:45
That’s cool, thanks!
Thu 19 Mar 2009 at 20:21:37
that is a dumb statement to say that men that like thin women are gay. how ignorant.
Tue 31 Mar 2009 at 13:14:05
“When have you ever seen a white woman dye her hair black, cut it short and give it a perm to be more beautiful”
I had to step in here. I’ve seen white women die their hair darker and perm it quite often, actually. In Bavaria (where light-haired girls are a dime-a-dozen) it’s more common than here.
It’s all about getting attention. A black-haired girl in Norway will get noticed more than a blond. Same where I live now (in America but in a heavily-Germanic area where everyone has light brown or blond hair). When I walk down the street here it slows traffic. And quite a few of my white German relatives would confess to being envious of my dark skin (alas, only in summer — in winter I am pasty) and dark, curly hair. Those women spend a lot of time at the solarium or sunbathing (it’s really sad because there’s a lot of skin cancer over there).
One white woman (whose fiancee left her for me) actually told me off with the statement, “He just wants you because you’re black. If you weren’t, he wouldn’t even have looked twice at you!”
A lot of the statements on this blog are surprising to me, but I guess that’s because I’m European. When I read about black women wishing they looked “white” it astounds me. I’ve never had that inclination in my life, and rather have always felt special for it.
Tue 31 Mar 2009 at 13:18:00
That reminds me of the movie “Something New”. I watched it with my husband (who is white) and as soon as Sanaa Latham steps on the screen he started snorting with laughter. “You have got to be kidding me! As if a woman who was that gorgeous would ever be single for a day. Who would believe that!”
Tue 31 Mar 2009 at 13:22:21
My husband says Paris Hilton, Pamela Anderson, and Jennifer Anniston are all very plain or even ugly. He says Pamela looks like she’ll start barking any minute and he always has a strong urge to feed Paris.
He’s very confused as to why people make such a big deal over those women.
Tue 31 Mar 2009 at 20:52:37
“When have you ever seen a white woman dye her hair black, cut it short and give it a perm to be more beautiful”
I dye my hair dark espresso = almost black
and give it a perm to be more beautiful.
my hair is a mousey drab light brown and STRAIGHT. I have been blonde…but think my dark curly hairy is way more sexy. IT wouldnt work for me personally, but i love the super tight kinda girls that you can twist together that some black women wear – its HOT. I would look dumb doing that to my hair – but if I could rock it I would do it.
Tue 31 Mar 2009 at 23:29:17
actually i think paris hilton’s body looks fine to me. just because she’s not curvy doesn’t mean she’s nothing but bones because i see no bones sticking out but i do think she’s unattractive as far as looks go.
Wed 1 Apr 2009 at 01:01:03
Yeah, I was going to say, Paris looks good as she is. She just looks like a girl with a high metobolism who is naturally thin, they do exist ya know.
I’m sure Paris eats just fine.
Wed 1 Apr 2009 at 01:09:26
Yeah, I’m sure she eats. My sister does too, and is very thin as well.
My point was that none of those women are really that good looking.
Wed 1 Apr 2009 at 12:34:38
Bonjour! Hot picture alert! If Paris Hilton is your fave, then I have a website for you to see. Who wants it?
Wed 1 Apr 2009 at 17:37:12
sedlmeier,
I think it’s great that you have always felt appreciated as a BW in Europe, but there is no question that, in America, beautiful BW are indeed ignored and made to feel like INVISIBLE second class women solely because they are Black. It should not be surprising that some BW feel that their self esteem has been negatively affected by this ANTI-BW HATE. Historically, American society has gone out of its way to TRASH the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, AND FEMININITY of BW. Hopefully a day will arrive when BW are treated as equally beautiful, desirable, and worthy of love as NON-BW.
Fri 3 Apr 2009 at 05:29:19
So white American men’s lack of attraction to black women, as noted in the post, that comes from their racism and not their biology?
Sun 19 Apr 2009 at 14:24:48
white women who get thick lips by surgery look silly..it looks like they are swollen, black women looks natural.
Mon 1 Jun 2009 at 18:51:48
Hello abagond. I didn’t quite know where to put this, but I found this art gallery online on an art sharing website. I think you might appreciate his work. I don’t know his real name or if he’s secretly famous or something but, according to the content of your blog, I think you’d appreciate it.
I couldn’t think of any better blog post to put this link on. so, here.
http://mattahan.deviantart.com/gallery/
As always, I enjoy your blog immensely, keep up the great posts
Tue 2 Jun 2009 at 07:18:18
Oh cool. You were right. Thank you!
Sat 13 Jun 2009 at 19:55:38
I sometimes wonder if beauty archetypes are really arbitrary to us deep down, registered as superficial ***even as far as physical attraction is concerned***, meaning even as far as physical lust is concerned.
I think really we just like a healthy looking female.
I’ve been at stages where i thought i had a particular preference in terms of this or that type of a feature, and my taste completely flip flops or i realize i never had on at all.
What i mean is, from a guy’s perspective, it isn’t like we’re going to think:
“her *** is not thick/big enough”
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/7910/didledbsn2.jpg
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/118/tiatlea.jpg
“they/she would look better were her hair straight”
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3655/3423361993_edaeb73729.jpg?v=0
http://modelmayhm-1.vo.llnwd.net/d1/photos/070919/00/46f0b3a33b77e.jpg
http://ymib.com/files/ymib/may-08-ymib-atong1.jpg
“she”
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/4409/strdyhj8.jpg
“doesn’t get my attention over her”
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/7500/aavnvl5.jpg
“she would look better were her nose longer and narrower and skin lighter”
http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/88/l_9c32c1020a2ca896634791ecf1fc8da2.jpg
http://ymib.com/files/ymib/may-08-ymib-atong1.jpg
“all of the above would not get my attention were they not polished looking”
Not to say this covers everyone, cuz there are some picky mofos. About 1-5% who might be bothered by a foot or belch or something, about 10-30% might say something to the tune of the above.
And i haven’t even covered thickness.
I think white culture dislikes thickness for 2 main reasons, one of them genetic. First, they generally don’t have the super curvy hip or butt shape. Second, they liked thick women back when getting food was alot harder. Not just in the earlier 20th Century, i’ve seen exotic medeival paintings of fat royals.
Curiously, the expressed liking of extremely thick thighs and plump rears goes back even to ancient Ta Wy / Km.t nwt, based on their poetry some of their purely aesthetic / no-person-in-particular statues.
For me, it’s attitude and body that do it, but no particular body type, which leads me to believe that *my* physical lust is for healthy females. Now their might be details about faces and what not, but my opinion has changed on even individual faces.
Beauty might just be a mental / novelty / popularity thing.
Initially in puberty i liked ‘em thick, and generally like ‘em slinny to chubbs (chubbs, not yacht sized), but believe it or not, at times thickness has done *nothing* for me (it’s femininity/curviness+thickness that makes the thickness, plus attitude), and plenty of times straight hair (im lmao just thinking of the fact this needs to be said).
Good looking = healthy looking, for the face/body, mind, vibe and soul. Youth looks good to every sex of all ages because youth exudes health. Really beauty is health.
Attitude can not be overstated, just like for most women. Most women like a guy who’s confident like Denzel, they like a guy who’s not bogged down over stuff that doesn’t matter, you gotta have some swag. Pitiful pettiness is an emotional turn off.
I think alot of women know what makes us tick and really know what they’re doing, others are sort of on the right, and many are completely off.
Wed 17 Jun 2009 at 15:08:19
I think that catagorizing all white men by saying that they all dislike the looks of black women is extremely racist. And especially saying that all white people think that an extremely thin body is is only body that is beautiful isn’t true, I’m white and i WISH i could have the body of Eva Mendes, Lola Love, or Beyonce….oooooo…especially Beyonce, but, because of the way I am built, with narrow hips and a small butt I can’t have a thick body beacuse I don’t look velumpcious body…I just get a gut…which Is not never attractive if the rest of the body is small. If a woman is built to have a thick body, weather black, white, latina or asian, then they should embrace that and take advantage of it.
Wed 17 Jun 2009 at 17:10:17
I never said “ALL white” anything in this post.
As the post states, I started out assuming that all men had pretty much the same taste in women. Men are men.
It was only later that I found out that MOST white men truly do like thin women, that it was not just something the fashion magazines were pushing.
And it was only later that I found out that MANY – maybe even MOST – white men feel no physical attraction for black women. I had assumed that they all were attracted to black women, regardless of whether they would ever marry them or not (a separate issue). They are women after all. I still find it hard to believe.
Thu 18 Jun 2009 at 01:25:16
How did you offically find that out about (American?) white male taste in women?
Thu 18 Jun 2009 at 16:52:30
Abagond,
In my life experience as a BW in the U.S., I have discovered that the so called “lack of attraction that MOST WM have for BW” is due mainly to the history of ANTI-BW RACISM and/or ANTI-BW COWARDICE that has been cultivated in the culture.
I’m not convinced that MOST AMERICAN WM are born with this ANTI-BW bias because, as you said, BW ARE WOMEN (whether or not WM choose to seriously date and/or marry BW).
Thu 2 Jul 2009 at 17:54:29
Well, i hear from some sistas that in Eastern Europe white dudes go crazy for BW over there, but i’ve only heard from like 3 women who’ve traveled there.
There is a.) lack of the guilt and emotion -laced white guy history and b.) the fact that our women are probably extra rare/exotic over there.
Sat 4 Jul 2009 at 03:14:07
it s true i don t know if they go crazy but I know in a small country as Switzerland 50% of IR involve BW/WM or bi-racial/WM and if u go to Italy it s the same ratio and in france and in Uk I think 30%
and WM date all kind of black women even I believe they do prefer the A.weck type.
Sat 11 Jul 2009 at 12:24:15
Who cares most sistas i know dont find white men attractive anyway! So who cares how they feel about us.. I cant even stand to wacth porn with a black women and a white man. I think alot of white men just fantasize about us sexually because of all the hoopla theyve heard about us being hot and wild in bed.
Sun 19 Jul 2009 at 13:23:27
Hi guys, I’m a white guy and I’ve always found this type of conversation very interesting.
Although I’d agree that there are many socio-economic-cultural-historical factors at play that may influence one’s level of attraction to certain races; it’s really tough to apply general rules to all BM, WM, WW, BW, etc etc these are huge swathes of the population who are obviously not all of the same mind when it comes to attraction.
Couple that with the hard-to-measure and subjective mechanisms the govern attraction, I think it’s tough to narrow down questions to “why don’t these people like these people?”
I believe, as I’m sure that many of you do, that attraction is a very personal thing. Although there are noticeable trends in “who likes who” I believe that if you take care of yourself, and hang around the type of people that you’re interested in, you’ll eventually get a bite. (By “bite” I mean you’ll hook up with someone from said group).
But then again I’m sure most you realize the “unhealthiness” of thinking: “Oh, there’s a bunch of (random example)asian people, I’ll just go there and see what happens.”
Mon 7 Sep 2009 at 14:12:53
Hey there! I just read your article, and I suppose I should comment on an Asian’s point of view. I think curvy women are beautiful too (not in the lesbian sort of way), but we asians are made more petite, I can confidently say that. My mum used to joke around saying it’s due to our diet and such, since (if we are extremely honest with ourselves) we rarely exercise. Maybe it’s just our lifestyle, but we are built thinner.
My Waist-to-Hip ratio is 0.68 but I am actually quite slim. It’s just in our race, I guess.
Following that statement, I feel that the true reason as to why Asian men prefer thin people is none other than normalcy – they see them everywhere, and you tend to notice the obvious. They’ve been living amongst thin women all their lives, and because of that, what else should they feel?
I agree with the fact that sometimes curvy women are beautiful. I think Beyonce has an absolutely stunning figure. But then again, if all men in our country want us to look like Beyonce, then I suppose our future generation will never be born! Speaking from a petite girl’s point of view, as much as I want to look like Sophia Loren and Beyonce, I just can’t – if I gain more weight I’ll just look obese, not bootylicious. Asians probably prefer us because of some subconscious inclination to produce future offspring.
It’s a sad fact, but true.
Mon 7 Sep 2009 at 14:38:07
Hi Joanna. Another fellow Asian here. Are you of East Asian or Southeast Asian heritage? I’m a Filipina and generally, Filipinos like their women to have boobs and butts, and we tend to possess those attributes compared to East Asians. I’m only 5′3″ and weigh 110 lbs with large C cups, but when I try on clothes made in Hong Kong, omg, it’s so tight particularly the bust area. I can barely button a top without the buttons almost popping off.
Thu 8 Oct 2009 at 11:38:47
You are so right! I notice that most black men do appreciate curves on a woman alot more than white men do.
Sun 18 Oct 2009 at 16:47:42
I would love to date a black woman but most of the abusive put downs at me come from black women. That hurts!
Still, would never rule them out as a potential love partner or a woman of any other race.
Sun 25 Oct 2009 at 17:01:40
I cannot understand why people say that white men don’t find black woman attractive I am a black woman who lives in the UK and i am constantly hit on by men of all races A lot of the white men say that they like black women ,but are intimidated by us and are therefore concerned that they will be rejected. I am married to a wonderful BM and i personally cannot imagine dating outside my race.
Sun 1 Nov 2009 at 01:48:49
RE: “Ultimately? We have to learn that our designers, artists, models–––OURSELVES–are worthwhile, and support each other, despite what the rest of the world thinks. Only then, will they want to be part of our world; just look at the impact of hip-hop. Those kids didn’t give a damn about anyone white.”
=====================
They certainly do! Approximately 80% of actual hip-hop music and ancillary sales are by “whites.” And, hip-hop artists cater especially to this group, because THAT is from whom most of their income is derived.
Sun 1 Nov 2009 at 04:08:53
Now it is like that, but it did not start out that way and I think that is what Jay meant.
Sun 1 Nov 2009 at 17:09:39
To Abagond, I just want to say, I absolutely love your blog. I am a black woman, and I find some white men attractive. But I have an hourglass shape, so I don’t think I would appeal to them. However, if I did, and I dated one, deep in my mind I would wonder, is he with me because of who I am, or because of the jezebel stereotype. The way I am built sure doesn’t help either.
Mon 2 Nov 2009 at 22:26:19
Wow, I am a smaller framed black women and I feel that I have attracted all different races of men. All black women are not the same and all white men are not either. Let’s face it no man, in their right mind is going to turn down Halle, Rhianna, Beyonce, Garicelle I don’t care what race they are. It takes more to sustain a relationship than outward appearance, but beauty is beauty.
Sat 14 Nov 2009 at 11:51:32
It seems to me (after reading all your posts on female beauty) that you want ALL men to have the same opinion on beauty as you have. Why can’t you accept that some men like their women slim, tall with curves and some like them short and thick like you? I am a Norwegian girl and I feel offended by reading this. If all men should love the African body type, then how on earth could I ever feel attractive? I’ve heard from a lot of different men that I have a beautiful body and I’m full figure even though I’m not short and thick. I’m not skinny either.
Sat 14 Nov 2009 at 11:58:16
I also have to say that the white men I know up NORTH where I’m from appreciates curves. They like their women healthy. But they also see the beauty in long sexy legs, slim arms and waists and think women look to heavy and lazy with big thighs. And many of them say they prefer a moderately shaped, fit butt, instead of a big butt. But many of them also like them big (although fit). But maybe that is because white men are not as thick as African men? They are tall and more slim than the African men I see. So it’s only natural for them to want a tall, smaller woman. Why is that so hard to understand?