The British Empire was the largest empire in history, larger even than the Mongol empire. It ruled the seas, a fourth of the land and a fourth of mankind. It had more people than even China. It was the top power in the world from Napoleon to Hitler, from 1815 to 1942. The war against Hitler left it broke and worn out and it fell apart in the years that followed.
During the war its wealth and position went to America, a daughter of the empire. Many regard present American world power as the British Empire II. New York and Washington have simply taken the place of London.
Although the rise of industry started in Britain, it did not spread to its empire – most of the empire remained shockingly backward and poor. But by the 1940s industry had spread to Europe, America and Japan. So when war came in the 1940s it found that it was no longer the mighty power that it once had been. The world had changed.
In the old days, land was power. Now it was industry and business. The landed rich of Britain saw this shift in power in their own island in the 1800s and then saw it take place again in the world at large in the 1900s.
The empire was built on sea trade and sea power. For the most part it was made up of ports and countries along the sea from London to Hong Kong.
London was the centre of the empire and world trade. At the time it was the largest port and largest city in the world.
In 1940 the empire had 600 million people. A tenth lived in Britain, two-thirds in India and the remaining 140 million in other parts of the empire.
By 1940 Australia, New Zealand, Canada and South Africa were dominions. That meant they were no longer ruled by Britain, but they still worked within the empire in matters of trade and war.
Most of the countries that were once part of the empire are now part of the Commonwealth.
In the late 1600s and 1700s it got rich mainly from slaves and sugar. It lost its American colonies but then became the top power in the West after defeating Napoleon.
In the 1800s it freed the slaves and shifted its attention to India and later Africa. In the 1900s it went broke fighting two wars against Germany.
What the British Empire gave the world among other things: cricket, world trade, parliaments, football, capitalism and English as a world language.
It brought the Christian faith to much of Africa but left Africa and the Arab world weak and divided. It left Hindu India poor but in one piece and so it is much stronger today because of it.
Hitler and Gandhi, more than anyone else, brought the empire down. But it had fallen behind in many ways – in teaching science, in building arms, in spreading industry, in freeing trade – and so it was only a matter of time before it fell.
Anachronous map of the British Empire, showing all the lands that have been under British control at one time or another
See also:
Britain had the largest empire-ever.The mongol empire had the largest joined land mass ever but in size was second to britains.
I thought the Mongol empire was a bit larger, but checking the Wikipedia I find that the British Empire was in fact larger:
36.6 million square kilometres: British empire
33 million square kilometres: Mongol empire
Thanks for the correction.
u all need a life haha
LOL
The British empire did not leave India in one piece. With the divide and rule concept they created a divide between the Hindus and Muslims in India that lead to the formation of Pakistan and Bangladesh and so caused a lot of carnage in the division of the country
Thanks for pointing that out. I corrected my post.
I know millions were killed and thousands continue to be killed, but the unity of Hindu India is no light achievement.
yes the british outlawed slavery in Africa , but only after leading the trade in human beings for 200 years!!!! i saw a tv programme lately which suggested that the slave trade was worth 7 trillion pounds to the empire in todays money!! britiania’s passing was no bad thing.
True, but look at how few empires before them ever gave up the slave trade.
they still practice their Empirism… and they are parasites to the American Foreign Policy. The Council on Foreign Relations is a British entity and has more influence than any other thinktank. They are still an Empire. More specific they are a Scientific Empire who rely on propaganda and misinformation.
The slave trade was prevalent in Africa long before the British came about, they did not enslave them just bought them from the already established slave traders from which were dealing in prisoners of war.
The Arab countries were also buying these same slaves hundreds of years before. I find it strange the black population at large blames the British and whites for their slavery when it was in fact themselves who created the industry.
There are something like 20 million dead black people at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean, those who died in the Middle Passage in the 1600s and 1700s. That is way more than the number of Jews that Hitler killed. The Arabs had nothing to do with that. The British and the Dutch had everything to do with it.
The British Empire wasn’t a bad thing. China for example was what some call, a savage country. The British Empire took over China and basically policed it, promising to give back their country in a 100 years time if they were behaved.
The British Empire was a parent to many.
That was sarcastic, right?
british are wrong for making muslims split up with someone forgot who though
I think that most people forget that it was Britian that gave us democracy, trade, freedom from Hitler (that includes every Nation in the British Empire) in which we held out by our selfs having bombs dropping on every city whilst America sat back and only came into it after they had been attacked at pearl harbour. Yes the we did some terrable things in the Empire but over all the world has a lot to thank the British People and all her sistering Nations for.
Good point. But I think if Britain had fallen to Hitler, America would have entered the war immediately.
erm dis site has like helped with my homework and everything sort of but i was wondering if any one kne of a website that had a LOT or ALL the details about the British Empire lol ??
btw some of the info is inncorrect
If you find mistakes, let me know what they are.
For more see the Wikipedia, the article there seems decent:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire
I would say that the Mongols under Genghis Khan had the largest,33 million km² was just the satble period under Kublai Khan,but at its peak,the Mongol Empire covered over 40 million km² larger than the British Empire
its wrong.the Mongol Empire is the largest ever in humankind.
Mongol Empire,44.1 million km²(at peak),33.2 million km² (under Khublai Khan ).
British Empire,36.6 million km²
looks like only a few english websites say that british empire was the largest empire in
the history.here some research from different languages:
==================
JAPANESE:
チンギスとその後継者たちはモンゴルから領土を大きく拡大し、西は東ヨーロッパ、アナトリア（現
在のトルコ）、シリア、南はアフガニスタン、チベット、ビルマ、東は中国、朝鮮半島まで、ユーラ
シア大陸の大部分にまたがる史上最大の帝国を創り上げた。当時の世界の全人口の約半数が支配下と
なった。厳密には面積において史上最大の帝国はイギリス帝国であるが、当時の世界はアジア・ヨーロ
ッパであったこと、領域に中国等が含まれていたこと等から史上最大の帝国であるといえる。
Genghis and his heirs have greatly expanded the territory of Mongolia from the west to
eastern Europe, Anatolia (now Turkey), Syria and south of Afghanistan, Tibet, Burma,
China, the Korean Peninsula, most of Eurasia Straddling the largest empire in the history
of his creation. At that time, the world’s population and about half of them under control.
————————-
ITALIAN:
L’Impero mongolo (Cirillico: Их Монгол Улс) è stato l’impero più vasto della
storia, coprendo, all’apice della sua estensione, più di 36 milioni di km², con una
popolazione stimata intorno ai 100 milioni di persone (in realtà l’Impero Britannico riuscì
a superarlo in estensione, ma l’Impero mongolo rimane il più grande impero terrestre).
The Mongolian Empire (Cyrillic: Их Монгол Улс) was the largest empire in
history, covering, at the height of its extension, more than 36 million km ², with a
population estimated at around 100 million people (in reality the British Empire managed to
surpass in extension, but the Mongolian Empire remains the largest land empire).
－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－
ROMANIAN：
Imperiul mongol a fost cel mai mare imperiu pe uscat, de peste 100 milioane locuitori,
creat într-un timp scurt de Ginghis Han şi urmaşii lui. Succesului militar al mongolilor,
mai ales în sec. 12 – 14, este remarcabil. Ei au controlat imense teritorii, din Coreea
până în Ungaria.
Mongol Empire was the greatest empire on land, over 100 million inhabitants, created in a
short time of Genghis Khan and his followers. Success mongolilor the military, especially
in sec. 12 to 14, is remarkable. They control huge territories, from Korea to Hungary.
———————–
CHINESE:
蒙古帝國，是一個历史上橫跨歐亞大陸的大帝國，為原大蒙古國的延伸，其也是歷史上世界最大的帝國
與國傢。
Mongolian empire, was the empire which across the Eurasian continent, as an extension of
the original Mongolia, is also the world’s largest empire in the history.
———————–
FRANCH：
El Imperio Mongol (en mongol: Монголын Эзэнт Гүрэн), fue uno de los
mayores de la historia, extendiendose en su apogeo desde la península coreana hasta el
Danubio.
The Mongol Empire (Mongolian: Монголын Эзэнт Гүрэн), was one of the
largest in history, extending at its peak since the Korean peninsula until the Danube.
Well i think Britain did bring alot to the world and it did do bad things. But at this day nd age britain can’t be blamed because Britain was controlled by different people then nd most of them r dead nd now its controlled by different people so really its our ancestors who should be blamed. But if any country had an empire they’d do the same. Every country wants wealth and power and we got it because we aimed for our goal. We created alot of technology we shaped how the world is and alot will say thats a bad thing but Britain was driven out countries and they fought for control. I dont see why britain gets blamed for everything. We done wot every other country would have done. But next i think America will have an empire.. If they already haven’t. Why do they have so many army bases nd men in so many countries? I thinks its because if we do something they don’t like, then they can Inialate us.
The British empire has done good things and bad things. So have other empires.
What troubles me about your comment, though, is that it sounds just like how white people in America talk about the slaves they used to have: “We do not own slaves – that was over a hundred years ago. And, besides, the Arabs had slaves too…”
If my father was a bank robber and died leaving me his fortune, is it right for me to keep that fortune and just say, “I am not a bank robber, and besides, my father was not the only bank robber”?
alexander the great conquered the world when the leader of the british empire was in his fathers testicals. if it wasnt for the greeks u people would still be bangin rocks together. dont ever forget that wen u wanna feel important with ur fake british empire.
the greeks came out with philosophy wen the british where coming out of the caves.
the greeks came out with philosophy while the british where coming out with excuses.
the greeks are responsible for mathematics,olympics,philosophy,pottery etc..
the briish are responsible for shepherds pie.
the british empire didnt teach the world nothing instead it learnt everything from it. they only thing they invented was football and there the shittest ones at it. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, I agree: the Greeks are great. Better than the British.
Sad Bastards !
btw the empire did not fall apart it was part of an agreement with the usa during the war in land lease that the uk let it go
as for what was bigger the British empire was and Alexander did not conquer the world only part of it as most of it was no even known to Alexander and one reason why the british empire is better what happened after Alexander died it fell apart the British empire lasted over 100 years
thats not to say the britsh did not do some bad stuff but they did good also bring goverment to places around the world they also got rid of slavery and lets not forget in the usa african americans did not get equal rights till the 70s in the uk they had them for a hell of a lot longer
sure brits did much horrible things, they prolly have millions of dead peoples blood on their hand, but remember..its always the rich and powerfull that gains from “Empires”, the poor “brits” had to fight and die for the rich b*stards.
To true:
the british empire didnt teach the world nothing instead it learnt everything from it. they only thing they invented was football and there the shittest ones at it.
Uhh… dude.. did you ever hear a not so small event called the Industrial revolution?
Some British inventions are the electrical motor, light bulb, internal combustion engine, steam engine, internal combustion engine, jet engine, fax machine, vacuum cleaner, television, penicillin, the part of the internet that is useful to non-nerds the World Wide Web, and.. Viagra.
The concept of evolution, developed by a British guy named Darwin.
Capitalism an (Wealth of Nations) obscure economic philosophy from the UK’s Adam Smith.
Then’s people like Isaac Newton – calculus (he and Leibniz are both credited) founding principals of mechanical theory… advances in optics.. then there’s Shakespeare, etc..
To trojan:
the greeks are responsible for mathematics,olympics,philosophy,pottery etc..
Pottery..? Greeks inventors..? No way:
The earliest known ceramic objects are Gravettian figurines such as those discovered at Dolni Vestonice in the modern-day Czech Republic. The Venus of Dolní Věstonice (Věstonická Venuše in Czech) is a Venus figurine, a statuette of a nude female figure dated to 29,000–25,000 BCE (Gravettian industry). The earliest known pottery vessels may be those made by the Incipient Jōmon people of Japan around 10,500 BCE. The term “Jōmon” means “cord-marked” in Japanese. This refers to the markings made on clay vessels and figures using sticks with cords wrapped around them. Pottery which dates back to 10,000 BCE have also been excavated in China.[5] It appears that pottery was independently developed in North Africa during the tenth millennium b.p.and in South America during the seventh millennium b.p.
The invention of the potter’s wheel in Mesopotamia sometime between 6,000 and 4,000 BCE (Ubaid period) revolutionized pottery production. Specialized potters were then able to meet the expanding needs of the world’s first cities. Pottery was in use in ancient India during the Mehrgarh Period II (5500 – 4800 BCE) and Merhgarh Period III (4800 – 3500 BCE), known as the ceramic Neolithic and chalcolithic. Pottery, including items known as the ed-Dur vessels, originated in regions of the Indus valley and has been found in a number of sites in the Indus valley civilization.
Philosophy and mathematics stopped with the Greeks…? Ummmn not quite.
I agree: the Greeks did not come up with the whole pottery thing, though they were good at it. And the British were not complete slackers.
They are somewhat correct about the Greeks though they’re the founders of democracy if they hadn’t held out against the Persians western civilization would have come to a halt. Although i cant agree about Alexander the great he was smart yes yet he was just king and ruler of the Macedonian empire, definitely not the same thing as the Greek city-states nor they’re democracy. By the way they didn’t say that mathematics and philosophy STOPPED at the Greeks they merely pointed out that they were the FOUNDERS of it which is true (the British isles were run by birttanian barbarians or what they were known as before that the Celts. That’s information you cant get off cut and past from Wikipedia -__-, they’re have always been world powers they’re always will be and and you can argue till the world ends over which ones better but seeing as how there is a 2000 or so year gap, and its obvious by the names that some of the people who vogue for Greeks are in fact Greek and the same for the British fanatics, that no ones going to change they’re minds based off of strangers on the internet, mud slinging, pointing fingers, and altogether the fact that “you cant argue with stupid”
Stonehenge is a very old construction (older than the pyramids). We in England we’re not coming out of caves when the Greeks were boiling up philosophy and the Celts were also fine craftsmen; Being the makers of the most valuable jewellery in the Roman empire. If you’re factious towards the intellect of our supposedly “cave-dwelling” past then elaborate on how “Stonehenge” was built and pit your wits against theirs.
To John:
By the way they didn’t say that mathematics and philosophy STOPPED at the Greeks they merely pointed out that they were the FOUNDERS of it which is true..
Neither is true…. the Egyptians, Sumerians, and Assyrians all had forms of mathematics and philosophy some of which were adopted and expanded upon by the Greeks. The ancient Greeks such as Herodotus acknowledged this.
the British isles were run by birttanian barbarians or what they were known as before that the Celts. That’s information you cant get off cut and past from Wikipedia
Actually there’s plenty you can get from Wikipedia about Britain and Celts, Britannia is the Roman name for the province we now call England (the name England is derived from the later Anglo-Saxon-Jute invasion… Angle-Land) :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britain_(name)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britons_(historic)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Britain
To Ashton:
Stonehenge is a very old construction (older than the pyramids).
It was roughly coincident with the step pyramids such as:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_of_Djoser
I will tip my hat to the pyramid builders for engineering but I would agree that Stonehenge was not a simple task.
Unfortunately every time I read about Stonehenge… I think of:
The British not only had 36 million km^2 but they also controlled the Sea that’s an additional 2/3rds of the world…no one seriously faced their sea power apart from Spanish armada…but they were wiped out by British Fleet and storms helped. It was until the late 1800′s when Bismarck was in power the Prussians (Germans) started to challenge the British fleet…as well as that many people in Britain were becoming unfit to fight wars. Hence the reason such care is being taken care of the citizens in Britain today because of the struggles that were endured in the 20th century wars. Nevertheless if it wasn’t for the British…History would have been boring.
The British did not introduce Christianity to Africa – that is a common misconception. It existed in Ethiopia hundreds of years before Europeans even set foot on the continent. The magnificent rock churches in Lalibela (built in c. 1100s as a “New Jerusalem”) testify to this.
Africa’s connection to Christianity stems from Makeda, the Ethipian Queen of Sheba who was said to have travelled to meet King Solomon. Ethiopian Jews (Beta Israel) who are acknowledged as such by the modern-day state of Israel, claim their Jewish descent from King Soloman and the Queen of Sheeba.
all i have to say on this matter is that the british empire changed and shaped the world as it is today without the english half of you f**king idiots probaly wouldnt even be alive, english blood is spread all over the world the most spoke language across the world is english the stupid americans are as good as english an im ashamed to say so, we invented so many things that people all over the world use every day and take for granted, it was down to the british that world war 1 and world war 2 ended, we produced great men like Winston Churchill, Shakespeare, Robin Hood etc. Before you all start slagging off the British, remember what they did for you and the rest of the world!
…english blood is spread all over the world…
So let’s go spill some more of it, hey whot?
it was down to the british that world war 1 and world war 2 ended…
And began, let’s not forget.
we produced great men like Winston Churchill, Shakespeare, Robin Hood etc.
Robin Hood? ROBIN HOOD?!!!
Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
O man, here I thought you were serious, but now I see it’s just troll copypasta! Thanks for the laugh!
Yes, and let’s not forget such great English men as King Arthur, Toad of Toad Hall, Winnie the Pooh and the Mad Hatter!
Thad:
The Mad Hatter is from Wonderland. I am not sure if that is part of England.
With regard to:
“Africa’s connection to Christianity stems from Makeda, the Ethipian Queen of Sheba who was said to have travelled to meet King Solomon”
Just to say that strictly speaking African connection with Christanity starts at two places.
1. The kind of euro-centred perspective will tell you Christainity entered Africa in the 4th century AD with Saint Frumentius of Ethiopia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frumentius
2. Notwithstanding that Egypt became a Christian country as early as AD 41
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Egypt
It is Judaism that has a continuous history in Ethiopia, dating back from the (fabled) meeting of Queen of Sheba with King Solomon in 90? BC.
A lot of low IQ comments on here. By the way what language are we all talking on this thread
“A lot of low IQ comments on here. By the way what language are we all talking on this thread”
I believe it’s Japanese, Italian, Romanian, Chinese, French, and English.
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2006/06/10/british-empire/#comment-10437
…so far.
Abagond wrote:But it left Hindu India in one piece and so it is much stronger today because of it.
I say: Not entirely true. True, Christianity couldn’t get a lot of followers here but they implemented their ‘divide and rule’ policy in the form of fostering hatred between Hindus and Muslims(hey, ours is not just a Hindu country), the two major religious groups and India was divided into India and Pakistan, and later East Pakistan became independent and is now called Bangladesh. India and Pakistan have a long history of enmity over Kashmir.
Before Britain controlled India, India was divided into many small kingdoms! so actually Britain left it in a bigger two pieces!
And whoever said britain started the two world knows nothing!
WWI started when the Archduke Franz Ferdinand was murdered by a serbian, and after a chain reaction of alliances the war came about!
WWII started because Hitler invaded Poland! Britain promised to side with Poland if he did so, then Hitler Invaded Holland, Belgium, then France!
If America sat back watching France and the other countries get invaded then I doubt they would have done anything for Britain! Apparantly french fries are now called freedom fries in America because the French didn’t help out in the war… Well thats pretty out of order! Seeing as they were in the war from the beginning! Leave our european brothers alone!
But to be honest, I have learned a lot from these aggressive conversations!
I thought the mongol empire was 33 million square kilometers not 44 but like the other guy said, the Mongols did not control the seas! Also whats amazing is Britain is such a small country but still ruled an amazingly huge Empire!
britain invented the radar!
As you all argue on the Greeks verse the British being the better Empire, remember you are arguing in English not Greek. LMAO
While Britain and the West benefitted from the slave trade it should be remember that it was the British Parliament that outlawed the slave trade. The British set aside 15% of its GDP for a period of 40 years to implement the abolition of the Slave Trade, this process was started by members of Parliament who put humanity before greed.
Also if Hitler had defeated Britain the thought that America would have entered the war is laughable. In 1940 the USA was in the grip of isolationism. FDR had to propose lend lease to get help to Britain, which we have only paid off in 2008. Further proof is Joe kennedy (JFK’s father) was pro nazi and hated Britain and he was the USA’s ambassador to Britain. Finally when Japan attacked Pearl Harbour, the USA declared war on Japan not Germany, it was only when Germany declared war on USA did the USA declare war on Germany. Also when USA entered the war in Dec1941 Britain had been standing alone since May1940.
Therefore before you make comments on the past of a country you should actually read about it and understand that the present is not the past. Also in the past, people did not have the same beliefs that we now have in this more enlighted times.
The greatest British invention? Fish and Chips, with tons of gravy on the chips! Yowza! To h*ll with anything else!
Interesting thread, some intelligent comments and perhaps a lot more idiotic ones. I have always had an interest in the history of the world and I’d just like to make clear that I am both ashamed and proud of Britain and it’s past, as should everyone be of their country. Anyone that is as blindly nationalistic as some people in this conversation, perhaps should understand such blinkered views are probably not going to help improve this world for everyone. No country is the best, we are all humans. Every nation has contributed to (and hindered) our evolution into truly intelligent beings, can we please not go backwards!
some prehistoric neanderthals quarreled 10,000 years ago with stones and sticks in hand in some unknown language to show who is best.
4000 years ago Egyptians did that in Egyptian language.
Greek followed with there chariots so were the Roman gladiators. Then European tribes continued with super politician English on top; the trend transferred to US now a days. From Stones in 10,000 years back through pappirus, paper, tapes to internet some pet historians, poets wrote epics and continuing… After 500 years later from now it will keep continuing in inter galactic system with telepathic or some other form of language.
I wonder if there was ever humanity… or there will ever be anything like that. After all the humanity and etc things all are under this process of evaluation of barbarism. Some other process or some other evaluation could justify… what we are and where we are heading. Beep beep…..
The map of the british empire that’s in this web is wrong, because it shows South Africa as a colonie in the 1920′s, and that doesn’t match because South Africa is independent since 1910.
Where Ottomans Empire?
Ben türküm Osmanlı İmparatorluğu nerde çekemedinizmi büyük bir imparatorluğum kölesi olmayı.
Britain’s fallen far — just look at how much of a rump their military will be after the Conversative-Lib Dem coalition hobbles it in the name of ‘austerity’.
To Herneith
The greatest British invention? Fish and Chips, with tons of gravy on the chips! Yowza! To h*ll with anything else!
Ummm British food… no wonder they invaded so many countries… as for inventions there is the graphical based internet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee
Which I personally find more useful than Fish & Chips.
Ummm British food… no wonder they invaded so many countries… as for inventions there is the graphical based internet:
Yes, but can he cook fish and chips with tons of gravy on the fries?
Anyone who is trying to proclaim pride in having an empire is just admitting that there forefathers were criminals, murder & theft and ethnic clensing is what usually happens in empire building, the american government are war criminals along with tony blair, and any other sons of bitches stealing iraq’s wealth, they already moving into afghanistan, uzbekistan and that region, and IRAN is there target after that, and when they no longer friendly with the super rich saudi’s, who had more to do with 9/11 than iraq, they will be after them too.
stop slagging of the british yes we may have done some bad things but we’ve also done many great things world war 1 and 2 the british saved the entire world and the spanish armada and napoleon we beat both and hitler. and instead of insulting celts think what they did. if u actually did anything british celtic history u would know we also had a deep set of beliefs and culture. and americans never do anything apart from screw up britain. example. concord, americans screwed it up just cause they didnt have the tecnology.
We are all humans, we all come from the same source and we’ll all go to the same place. We all have feelings, emotions, thoughts, and we all feel pain. We are all on the same planet asking the same questions in need of the same necessities.
That is a lot more that we all have in common than what part of the world you are from.
If you choose to seperate yourselfs from the rest of humanity by saying your empire is best, then you are a victim of this divide and conquer method.
Your ignorance as a individual is the reason that the world is messed up, not your countrys or empires, take responsibility you are not a sheep. wake up!.
Im not a hippy lol I am just logical and I think for myself.
I don’t think there ever was an empire in the history that was “good”. They’re just projections of man’s greed to conquer and amass more wealth for the highest echelons of their societies.
People whose ancestors were part of those empires tend to glorify their achievements. That something good came out of them is just an excuse for further conquests and merely a side effect. “Progress”, “civilization”.
Empires are not trying to benefit mankind, they try to benefit themselves.
Interesting that the defenders of British Empire seem to be the most uneducated people on this blog. It would be nice if you were able to grasp at least the very fundamentals of your queen’s english to somehow justify the great achievements of your long gone realm.
And the Brits did definitely NOT save the entire world in WW1 or WW2 and definitely not single-handedly. They were too weak for that (excluding Royal Navy). It took the effort of all the Allied forces. And do NOT forget the Red Army.
Hitler’s mistake was to spread his forces too thin, on several fronts. Germans were short of resources (oil, metals, everything). Germany would’ve collapsed anyway, it would just taken a lot longer. Albert Speer was able to prolong the war with his undeniably brilliant organizing talent.
Battle of Britain was important, but it was operation Barbarossa that broke the back of Die Dritte Reich.
Please read some history before commenting.
Did you know that after slavery was abolished in the British Empire the paid reparations to the slave owners, but not the slaves? The nerve! I mean way to spit on peoples faces(my Jamaican ancestors included).
I don’t blame the current British generation, but I think most of us can agree that the past was pretty effed up.
Check this out:
http://www.imperialflags.blogspot.com
All the British flags of the empire (pretty much)
The trouble with Britain is that it covers up it’s bad things and makes everyone believe they were a force of good through out the world which is not true! They never want to knowledge the bad things they did and they always make their excuses that it was legal at the time like Tony Blair said about Slavery. As a person of Afro-Caribbean descent I look at the terrible things they did in Jamaica and to the people of Kenya to see that they have got a brutal and bloody history but they are very good at portraying themselves as the ‘Good guy‘.
The book ‘Imperial Reckoning’ Caroline Elkins explores the brutality of English in Kenya during the Colonial period – I would highly recommend this book!
***The trouble with Britain is that it covers up it’s bad things and makes everyone believe they were a force of good through out the world ***
I would say the opposite is true. They focus on the bad things by the British & downplay african and overlook the services and infrastructure that was developed (schools, universities, hospitals and sanitation projects).
Accordingly, they’ve provided billions in aid but little hands on governance for these countries – which would help the people on the ground.
***The book ‘Imperial Reckoning’ Caroline Elkins explores the brutality of English in Kenya during the Colonial period ***
Blacker, writing in African Affairs, sets out in detail that Elkins’ estimates of casualties were grossly over estimated.
@Schwartz
I don’t think any of that is true. American history doesn’t pay much attention to British or any other European empires. Most high school students probably couldn’t tell you anything about the British besides the fact that we fought a war with them for independence.
Please update the picture : Anachronous map of the British Empire, showing all the lands that have been under British control at one time or another. British never ruled Nepal and also never had any control. If you really have a knowledge of British empire you should know that British never defeated Nepal and they named Nepali as the brave army of the time.
@ Schwartz
Your response to my post it not suprising. A typical White English response by stating that they ‘gave’ the Africans some hospitals, schools etc but not noting that Britain took billions of natural resources from Africa that a few schools, train track etc could never make -up for!! In regards to Elkins, there will always be a denial by British by stating that ‘not true’ or ‘highly exaggerated’ because they never want to confront their brutality of Africans.
Oh dear. How ever could anyone try to analyse the pros and cons of an enormous subject like the British Empire in a thread like this? It’s too full a subject for a library, let alone ill thought out remarks by some semi-literate and occasionally shockingly inarticulate people on the internet.
However . Let’s try to examine just two points of Imperial history mentioned here: slavery and British India.
Slavery was undoubtedly a stain on Britain’s Imperial past, BUT, having abolished the slave trade the British, through the Royal Navy, then became the most enthusiastic anti slave traders. Many were the British sailors killed in the fifty years that followed the “Act for the Abolition of the Slave Trade” policing the seas off Africa. Who killed them? The traders. Who were they? Portuguese, Spanish, French, Americans, various Arabs, and of course, the African tribal leaders who went inland to collect people to sell to the slavers when their ships arrived.
Prior to 1807 the British were also in that list, of course; my point is that having abolished this wretched trade the British then became the most enthusiastic in policing the abolition. (It has to be said in fairness that the French, albeit relucantly, also complied).
Should I, a British person, apologise for the slave trade? Absolutely not! It is not in my gift, or anyone else’s for that matter, to apologise for the behaviour of my forefathers. Can I say I regret what was done at that time? Of course! however, let’s put it in context: the British Empire was not the only entity involved in the slave trade; plenty of other nations have that stain on their past too. The British at least took the first step in abolishing it.
British India.
The age of Empire was already waning when Indian Nationalism was on the rise. It can, in fact, be argued that the British failure to grant the Irish Home Rule in the 1880′s was the genesis of the end of the Empire. The bloody put-down of the Easter Uprising in 1916 did more for the cause of Irish nationalism than anything before it, culminating in the 1921 treaty granting Ireland (minus the six counties of Ulster) semi-independence. That led to full independence in 1946.
The Indians therefore only had to look to Ireland to see the way forward in terms of throwing off the colonial yoke, and volient clashes (naturally enough) ensued.
The partition of India is a complex subject, but again, it was not British policy to do so, at least initially. I think it can easily be argued that Jinnah, Nehru and Ghandi (in particular) were duplicitious individuals who bear joint responsibility for the partiton of India. The British would have been happy to hand India back in one piece, actually as has been pointed out, a bigger piece than before its colonial period.
Was the British pull-out from India well managed? Of course not! Did it lead to needless bloodshed? Almost certainly; but put that down to incompetence rather than policy.
The British Imperial legacy is long, and contains much good as well as bad, Londongirl. It is easy to selectively quote history to paint an unflattering picture of anything; the history of the British Empire is one of those things that can only be taken as a whole. Like it or not, the world is where it is today in large part because of the British Empire. There are a lot worse potential outcomes than that.
It’s embarrassing that Canada still has the British Monarchy as its head of state.
“Oh dear. How ever could anyone try to analyse the pros and cons of an enormous subject like the British Empire in a thread like this? It’s too full a subject for a library, let alone ill thought out remarks by some semi-literate and occasionally shockingly inarticulate people on the internet.”
Here he is obviously trying to establish himself as superior in knowledge and authority to the other posters. But if one truly has something worthwhile to say, this kind preamble is unnecessary, because one’s very words will evidence the superiority of his reasoning.
“Slavery was undoubtedly a stain on Britain’s Imperial past, BUT, having abolished the slave trade the British, through the Royal Navy, then became the most enthusiastic anti slave traders. Many were the British sailors killed in… etc etc..”
This is not information, but justification. Notice the capitalized “BUT.” Slavery was a stain—that is one fact. Later the British outlawed slavery and fought against it—that is another. But the second fact does not somehow ameliorate the first. It was both moral and right to abstain from, and combat, the slave trade from the very beginning – centuries beforehand.
“Should I, a British person, apologise for the slave trade? Absolutely not! It is not in my gift, or anyone else’s for that matter, to apologise for the behaviour of my forefathers. Can I say I regret what was done at that time? Of course! however, let’s put it in context: the British Empire was not the only entity involved in the slave trade; plenty of other nations have that stain on their past too.”
Or in other words:
I’m not the only one who beats my wife! Plenty of other men have done it too, and some rather prominent… Alexander the Great, I believe, and Napoleon, Kublai Khan, and Guy Ritchie—all known for their practice of domestic pugilism, you see. It is therefore important that you judge my brutality with theirs in mind!
————————————
No one was saying that Britain was alone in the slave trade. No one implied that modern Brits must personally apologize for slavery. No one said that the British empire never did anything worthwhile.
With what ghosts was he arguing?
King,
The point is that history has to be judged not by the standards of today but by the standards of the time. It is easy to see now that slavery was abominable, it clearly either was not so easy then to see it as such, or that it was not considered important. This, surely, is evolution – of thought and attitude.
“No one implied that modern Brits must personally apologize for slavery. No one said that the British empire never did anything worthwhile.
With what ghosts was he arguing?”
This is not an academic point neither is it a ghost. Read the final report of the United Nations World Conference Against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Racial Intolerance, which was held at Durban in 2001. There is a modern trend among “thinkers”, which holds that Britain, in particular, must apologise for the sins of its Imperial past. Demos (a UK based leftist/liberal ‘think tank’) suggested in 2002 that Queen Elizabeth should embark on “a world tour to apologize for the past sins of the Empire as a first step to making the Commonwealth more effective and relevant”.
And what about this:
“There have been repeated calls from blacks in the UK and elsewhere for compensation and an apology from the British state.”
These do not appear to be ghosts to me. The above is one of many quotes easily obtainable from a simple Google search on ‘calls for apologies for slavery’. Plenty of people have called for it, I disavow it as impractical and unnecessary. No one is able to speak for those 10 generations past, they did what they did. We can judge it now, by our standards, but history always has to be set in context. We need to lead our lives today by modern attitudes, not continually look over our shoulders at the past.
The fact is that the British were among the first slave traders (slavery is and always has been endemic, and continues today) and among the first and keenest to abolish it, and then police its abolition. One does not annul the other, but it is better than nothing at all, and better than other nations were doing at the time.
To try to equate that with wife beating, even metaphorically, is stretching the point just a bit and devaluing the debate, don’t you think?
PS no, it’s not embarassing for Canada at all. It aggravates the Quebecois beyond all endurance that the Queen’s head is still on your money. That’s reason enough to keep her!
“The point is that history has to be judged not by the standards of today but by the standards of the time. It is easy to see now that slavery was abominable, it clearly either was not so easy then to see it as such, or that it was not considered important. This, surely, is evolution – of thought and attitude.”
Slavery was clearly abominable in every age, no matter the race of the slaves or the slave holders. There were always clear voices of descent, but they were simply ignored because riches were pursued with greater desire than was decency. Even Anselm was ignored until nearly the end of his life.
“This is not an academic point neither is it a ghost. Read the final report of the United Nations World Conference Against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Racial Intolerance, which was held at Durban in 2001. There is a modern trend among “thinkers”, which holds that Britain, in particular, must apologise”
Yes, but this is Abagond, not the United Nations World Conference Against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Racial Intolerance. Why not take that particular point up with them?
“One does not annul the other, but it is better than nothing at all, and better than other nations were doing at the time.”
This post was not entitled, THE MISDEEDS OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE – it was not an attack post but an informative one. Now, in the discussion here on an anti-racist website, naturally, some of her racist misdeeds have been brought to light in the comments, but that would seem natural in such a setting. And why do you assume that we are unaware of the historical context in which these events were shaped? I will remind you that there are sharp minds, and tongues to match, on both sides of the Atlantic, sir.
“To try to equate that with wife beating, even metaphorically, is stretching the point just a bit and devaluing the debate, don’t you think?”
Why, not at all.
It is often only by taking arguments to their extremity that they can be seen for what they truly are. Think of of it as shouting when a whisper would be lost in the noise of the room.
King,
“There were always clear voices of descent,” – I think you mean dissent, but allowing for that undoubted typographical error, who were they? Granted there were a few Quakers and evangelicals who wrote on the subject, but a mass anti-slavery movement did not truly gather pace until the mid to late 1700′s.
“Yes, but this is Abagond, not the United Nations World Conference Against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Racial Intolerance. Why not take that particular point up with them?”
So censorship is to be practiced here? Nice, the Nazis were very good at that kind of thing. Abagond started the thread, which I agree was not at all an attack posting, but various comments left behind interested me and motivated me to reply. Many of those comments were very negative, and I see no reason not to defend the British Empire’s record. So censor away if you must, let others judge for themselves.
“It is often only by taking arguments to their extremity that they can be seen for what they truly are. Think of of it as shouting when a whisper would be lost in the noise of the room.”
Yes, that is a rhetorical technique practiced a lot on here I have noticed. You may justify it in those terms; I find it a rather immature, student style way of getting a point across. Taking things to extremes is rarely a way of advancing debate, it just clouds the central issue with meaningless stagnant backwaters.
Nothing in life is ever truly black and white, even on an anti rascism forum (observed he, drily).
Im black and very grateful for the British influence in my country’s (Zimbabwe) education system.
Other than than that, I thank God for Queen Elizabeth I and her son King James I in their great contribution towards true Christianity’s progress in the late 16th and early 17th centuries. I will ever adore them. Where would the world be without their great stance against the papacy?
England may not be the same now without them, but they indeed left behind an immortal legacy. Its sad though the current monarchy is contributing big timeto the reversal of these gains.
“So censorship is to be practiced here? Nice, the Nazis were very good at that kind of thing. Abagond started the thread, which I agree was not at all an attack posting, but various comments left behind interested me and motivated me to reply. Many of those comments were very negative, and I see no reason not to defend the British Empire’s record. So censor away if you must, let others judge for themselves.”
Sorry I missed your comment Oldschool gent.
I’m afraid that you don’t understand what censorship is. Allow me to educate you on this point. Censorship would be if the government came to this site and redacted your comments. You might also make that claim if Abagond deleted your comment, because it did not comport with his comment policy. And *perhaps* you might even make that claim if I somehow hacked into this site and deleted your comment.
But as you can see, your comment is still here, and all I have done is make a counter argument against it. You are quite incorrect in your idea of what censorship actually is. Not to worry though, it is a mistake often made by those unfamiliar with the term, so no big deal.
“Nice, the Nazis were very good at that kind of thing.”
(sigh) Please see Godwin’s law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
“Yes, that is a rhetorical technique practiced a lot on here I have noticed. You may justify it in those terms; I find it a rather immature, student style way of getting a point across.”
What, is this censorship then!? I’m just kidding… NOW you know better.
what the hell people….. you all have no life argueing about the past….. seriously though you all should start thinking about your lives and not the past… and yes i agree that without the wars and the Empire and all that Canada and everywhere else would not be the same… but like i said.. THAT WAS THE F#$KING PAST!!!!!! so get over yourselves..
It’s funny how history suddenly becomes useless when it puts you in a bad light. We can celebrate 100 holidays that commemorate great events of the past. We can maintain great museums. We can dedicate whole sections of our libraries to history. But we must never discuss history that makes the White man come off less than generous and noble.
IN other words, history is for White people to remember. Colored people cant be trusted with history – just get over it.
Im black and very grateful for the British influence in my country’s (Zimbabwe) education system.
Hahahahahahaha!!!!!
By hook or by crook,
a lot of hands have been shook.
a lot of heads have rolled
and many stories remain untold.
nice thread!
King, your posts up until know have been focused almost entirely on semantics, or de-constructing the arguments of Oldschool Gent, not based on the arguments themselves, but the way in which they were argued. You claim his arguments are irrelevant, but, if that is true, how irrelevant are your comments about the irrelevancy of his comments? If you would like to be constructive, how about commenting on the subject matter, in the style of a reasoned debate, rather than in the way of someone who has no point to argue, and instead hides behind his rhetoric to appear the more intelligent speaker?
In fact, Oldschool Gent has been by far the most well reasoned person on this forum so far, so how about focusing some of that malcontent on some of the less literate posters, rather than the one who’s intelligence intimidates you? I’ll stop there, in order not to make myself a hypocrite.
As regards the debate, I would like to put forward my view. First I will say that I am British, and so am subject to any natural bias. However it may enlighten any readers from other nations here to know that Britain is far from swelling with patriotic pride, as we have a natural tendency towards self-deprecation, and our rather liberal cultural attitude has led us to institutionalise condemnation of our past.
However, if we look at the Empire, we must, as has been said, look at it in context. While the sins of any nation of the past cannot be excused just by saying ‘it was ok back then’, consider how you may be judged in the future, before condemning those past. In the future you may be vilified for eating meat, or driving a petrol-fuelled car etc, but does that make you a bad person?
At the time, slavery was global and had been going on since the dawn of history, and probably before that. It was not seen as moral by all, but in a time of do or die, when weaker nations were not simply forgotten, but crushed, Britain, like all other countries, took every advantage it could get. By the standards of the time, it was effectively morally neutral. However, it was the first nation to abolish global slavery, and this was no small thing – it had to sacrifice much of it income and risk the anger of its wealthiest subjects! Besides that are also myriad benefits that came from the Empire – an empire which was known for being relatively benign and beneficial to its people, even actively seeking to help them at its own cost, compared to those of the past.
What I am not trying to say is that we should excuse the actions of our forebears, or that it was right to create the British Empire. What I am saying is that we should take some perspective, see that the Empire was not the worst thing to happen to the world, stop focusing our hatred for the ways of the past largely on Britain, and celebrate our past as all other nations celebrate theirs, despite their own transgressions. For we have a lot to celebrate, and have made up for our own sins much more than many others.
I realise I have come a little late to this debate, so sue me.
PS King, that last comment was rather uncalled for. You attacked Jackel’s view based completely on your own assumptions of his background, dismissing it as racist, which in fact made you the racist. That was beneath your intelligence, as I perceive it. Or I may also have made an ignorant assumption and you are in fact as dull-witted as the worst here, albeit with better grammar.
Putting what is in the past behind us is not an unintelligent idea, he was not saying we should forget the past, what I believe he was saying (and correct me if I’m wrong here) is that we should not let it define us.
The argument over which was larger the British or the Mongolian empires fails to address that the Royal Navy ruled the world’s seas. No nation could challenge the British from 1815 until 1913.. (The Germans tried in 1916 and again with U boats in 1939-45 and were defeated.
Post 1945, America IS the British Empire continued. Look at all the bases throughout the world, almost an exact copy of the British Empire circa 1913. And they have total sea domination with 12 carrier fleets.
Pax Britannica – Pax America.
One and the same.
Control the means of trade.
Economic, Diplomatic & Militaristic.
I know the British did bad things in those days, as did all empires. But that’s how it was in those days. If you could, you did! ANYONE who was powerful enough took over the weaker Of course that would not be acceptable today, but that’s how it was then. I now live in a country who was under the Spanish for 500 yrs. I’v lost count of the number of times I’v heard people say, “How I wish we had been under the British”
Indeed John. Even Nelson Mandela says in his autobiography, how fortunate South Africa was to be colonized by the British rather than one of the other European powers. Also he states quite correctly complaining about the British colonialization of S.A. is like the British complaining about the Roman conquest of Britain. Farcical. Barbarianism v Civilization.